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LHA Tarawa
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Posted - 2010.07.13 23:43:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Ivorr Bigun As a famous literary character once said "dont they teach logic in schools any more?"
Obviously not, or if they do, you missed that class.
EVERYTHING in industry is tedious. But people do it because there is profit in it. If the drop out rate is what you claim, and prices go up, then people will drop right back in for the ISK.
At least the tedium of PI can be compressed into a MUCH shorter span of RW time than mining, manufacturing, market order manipulations, invention, research, and all the other tedium that is industrial life in EVE.
As for encouraging bots, perhaps, but due to limitations on resources and depletion and such, the bot will be hard capped on what it produces to a level not much higher than the non-bot that spends 45 min a day kicking off 3 or 4 5-hour cycles. What, double the profit max?
Compare that to mining where the 23.5/7 bot can generate an income 20+ times that of the non-bot that does it 5-10 hours a week.
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Olleybear
I R' Carebear
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Posted - 2010.07.14 00:07:00 -
[62]
Originally by: William Mill3r
...EvE works 24/7... I don't think if you are going to sleep your colony get blown up during the night...
...Or maybe it will be just about taking the ressources inside the launchpad(s) etc...
Oh it will be about blowing stuff up, whether or not you are online.
POS shooting is about blowing stuff up, whether you are online or not. Markets still work whether you are online or not. Your buddy can get blown up whether you are online or not. Thats Eve.
I would hope Dust would be coming out fairly soon. CCP announced it August 2009. Thats going on a year now.
CCP doesn't have an infinte amount of development time for Dust and they know it. They have to worry about the consoles coming out after the XBox360 and when they are coming out. It would be a wasted investment if 3 months after you release Dust, the consoles it was designed for stopped being produced because the next generation of conoles is being launched.
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Jita Bloodtear
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Posted - 2010.07.14 00:42:00 -
[63]
Everyone posting that PI is fine has seriously diminished standards in regards to user interfaces (probably from playing Eve too long). All claims that industry is supposed to be tedious have lost sight of the purpose of what games are for. Everyone now with arthritis due to PI are in too much pain to protest.
Destroying the souls of new players through a dauntingly clickfest with atrocious payouts is a terrible method of expanding the player base. Everyone who thinks the player base should not expand does not want Eve to continue as an MMO. The imbalance of PI-ers, and the rising cost of POS fuels has greatly imbalanced the market and needs at least a four-fold boost in outputs. The clickfest must be removed. The user interface must be improved to be more friendly to newbies. The original poster is correct in all regards. --------------------------- Full Explanation of the Industry Index System |
Ari Chu
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Posted - 2010.07.14 01:03:00 -
[64]
Why are people still crying about an activity which no one is forcing them to do? Crying AND trying to do the activity with 15 bazillion alts? What the hell is wrong with people's brains that leads them to the conclusion that if they perform the task at 15 times the intensity that the next person does, that the developers will somehow make the task simpler to please them?
The only argument which one could make that leads to the logical conclusion that CCP should make PI easier - is if it's level of difficulty actually did lead to a dramatic reduction in people using it. As long as you idiots want to use your 45 accounts mining Planets, then from a database perspective - there are PLENTY of players using PI, and therefore the system is widely used.
TLDR: duh, if CCP feels that enough colonies are being run, there is no reason for them to make the system easier. So, if you actually want them to change it - quit doing PI. ---
"The Galaxy is only as big as you make it." - presumably Eve Game Designers. |
Shurikane
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Posted - 2010.07.14 01:58:00 -
[65]
If I can select and manage multiple extractors of the same type at once, I'm happy.
I'm not exactly looking for something that'll do the job for me here. I'm not expecting PI to rack me a tycoon's stash of money overnight. But if I have a simple and dumb system of several extractors all bunched up and running together, then I believe it would be just dandy if I could tell them all at once: "Run the 23-hour job." That's it, that's all. Sure, I don't get all the neat numbers associated with it to make sure I'm still on the hotspots, but it's a risk I'm willing to take.
If this makes me a whiner, well then, OK. I can live with that.
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Olleybear
I R' Carebear
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Posted - 2010.07.14 02:03:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Ari Chu So, if you actually want them to change it - quit doing PI.
The OP stated he is not doing PI anymore. I have stated I stopped doing PI. From what a friend of mine says that is still in my old 0.0 corp, half the guys that started PI have stopped doing it. We did quit.
Some of us aren't doing it with 15 bazillion alts. A lot of us are put off by the clickfest so much we no longer even want to do it with a single character, let alone 15 bazllion.
Go fly your ship, go find pvp, make sure your guns are set so they do not auto-repeat, see how much fun your having now? Dont you like the increased interaction with your guns? Though I suppose you could always stop shooting things with your ship if you get tired of clicking every time you want your guns to fire.
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Johnny cruz
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Posted - 2010.07.14 02:10:00 -
[67]
/signed
I haven't quit, but I completely redesigned my planets (which is really a fun part of PI) to 23hour cycles, building a final P4 good with 4 planets and a P2 with another. Once a day I do my clicks, and haul once a month. Still annoying, and my care level for doing it (despite 200mil/month profits) is vastly diminished.
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Phillip Macedon
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Posted - 2010.07.14 02:47:00 -
[68]
I hope CCP takes at least one optimization pass at this module.
There are five skills on the books today. A raft of new skills can improve a lot of this -
More PG for CCs, more extract, more storage, less input, for increased output.
And maybe, in a perfect world, new links to a new structure that consolidates surveys?
Less clicking for more output. Better times for the PI players that didn't quit, more fuel and components for the people that want to play the rest of EVE.
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Helgur
Steel Soldier's
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Posted - 2010.07.14 02:50:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Ari Chu Why are people still crying about an activity which no one is forcing them to do? Crying AND trying to do the activity with 15 bazillion alts? What the hell is wrong with people's brains that leads them to the conclusion that if they perform the task at 15 times the intensity that the next person does, that the developers will somehow make the task simpler to please them?
2/10
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cyndrogen
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Posted - 2010.07.14 02:58:00 -
[70]
Pi is not meant to be enjoyed it's meant to be endured!
CCP wants your hands to hurt as much as the programmer's hands who made P.I.
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cyndrogen
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Posted - 2010.07.14 03:09:00 -
[71]
Ari you actually like this style of game play? You clearly don't play games for fun or enjoyment it's some kind of sick masochistic fantasy for you. Try looking up the definition of "game" sometime because clearly you have no concept of what it means. If you look under that definition it's an activity meant to be ENJOYED, not endured. Now go back to your little troll hole and click your mouse til your fingers drop off...
Originally by: Ari Chu Why are people still crying about an activity which no one is forcing them to do? Crying AND trying to do the activity with 15 bazillion alts? What the hell is wrong with people's brains that leads them to the conclusion that if they perform the task at 15 times the intensity that the next person does, that the developers will somehow make the task simpler to please them?
The only argument which one could make that leads to the logical conclusion that CCP should make PI easier - is if it's level of difficulty actually did lead to a dramatic reduction in people using it. As long as you idiots want to use your 45 accounts mining Planets, then from a database perspective - there are PLENTY of players using PI, and therefore the system is widely used.
TLDR: duh, if CCP feels that enough colonies are being run, there is no reason for them to make the system easier. So, if you actually want them to change it - quit doing PI.
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Ari Chu
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Posted - 2010.07.14 04:27:00 -
[72]
Enjoy PI? Of Course not. But then again, 99% of EVE isn't actually enjoyable. But, we all play EVE for 3 reasons:
1) Because the other 1% can be really awesome. 2) Because the persistent game world is interesting and the game has a LOT of potential, even at this point of development. 3) Because chatting with other internet spaceship nerds can kill time in a not unpleasant way.
I have 1 character doing PI and it is less unenjoyable than many other activities. I made a fair amount of ISK at the beginning, far more than enough to pay for the initial investment.. and then I scaled back my operations and have just been stockpiling to see where things go.
I see a lot of potential for PI. Even look at the market, Under planetary Infrastructure.... Sub group Command Centers. If Command Centers were going to be the only thing you can place - it wouldn't have it's own group. There will be other types of structures in the future. I have high hopes that there will be a lot more choices in the types of colonies that can be built ... and if I designed PI, there would be.
But for now, I take it easy and stockpile. Really, my expectations are that EVE will go the way that PI goes. If PI fails, then Dust will fail, and it will show that CCP isn't paying enough attention to EVE for it to remain a great game into the future - and I'll start looking at other games more seriously. ---
"The Galaxy is only as big as you make it." - presumably Eve Game Designers. |
Sempress Kaye
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Posted - 2010.07.14 07:07:00 -
[73]
To the OP:
PI is getting tedious because you're overdoing it. 8 characters? 40 planets?
Its like saying "work is getting tedious. I have 3 jobs. One from 00:00 to 08:00, one from 08:30 to 17:00 and one from 17:30 to 23:30. I wonder why im feeling that way?".
You're creating the clickfest for yourself. I personally dont mind the clicking, but then again I stick to my 5 planets. And im sticking to my 23 hour cycle time. No wonder you go mental trying to run all with 5 hour cycles. Start doing the 23 hour or perhaps even 96 hour versions, life gets that much easier.
Also, repair paste? wut.
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Xander XacXorien
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Posted - 2010.07.14 07:47:00 -
[74]
I agree with the OP, Planetary Interaction is a complete fail on game play.
Many of the replies really are missing the consequences of PI being so crap.
If PI is not worth playing in the current circumstances what are you going to do when little oiks start trying to take over your operations ?
1) Zero fun element. 2) Zero interaction in an MMO ??? 3) Far too much time spent maintaining a non game. 4) I can't be arsed. 5) There is no way I'm gonna "defend" this rubbish.
The first thing I will do if someone ever tries to attack my stuff is delete the lot and probably celebrate the fact of all that free time to have fun, I might even pay someone to destroy my own stuff for the best fun I'll ever have in PI - if they are even working by that time. Shame I won't be able to see it being blownup even
PI is utter fail,,, very poor design,, I won't put game before design because there is no game and as regards the lack of interaction in an MMO this is truely unforgiveable and smacks of a very poor attitude from the designers.
If CCP can't be bothered to create a game then why should I be bothered to "play" it ?
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Sempress Kaye
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Posted - 2010.07.14 08:50:00 -
[75]
Edited by: Sempress Kaye on 14/07/2010 08:50:18 I personally dont see the problem myself. The "problem" for most players is trying to do exactly what the OP is doing. Forcing 5 hour cycles with a truckload of planets resulting in massive amounts of operations you need to perform.
Do Pi on the side. Run a couple of Planets, dont try to run the universe. Stop overdoing it and its real easy to manage, and hardly ever tedious. But im guessing most people just like to see how much ISK they can generate out of PI. And that ultimately results in having too much Planets, too much interaction and doing something too much will always result in having you fed up with it.
But thats just my opinion. I'm having fun, to each their own.
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Ivorr Bigun
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Posted - 2010.07.14 09:20:00 -
[76]
Edited by: Ivorr Bigun on 14/07/2010 09:21:21
Originally by: LHA Tarawa
Originally by: Ivorr Bigun As a famous literary character once said "dont they teach logic in schools any more?"
Obviously not, or if they do, you missed that class.
read on.
Originally by: LHA Tarawa EVERYTHING in industry is tedious.
I see. So by your startling logical powers if cake making and assembly line operation are tedious then driving racing cars should be too? I dont expect you to understand the metaphor but feel free to have a go.
Originally by: LHA Tarawa But people do it because there is profit in it. If the drop out rate is what you claim, and prices go up, then people will drop right back in for the ISK.
I predict a large drop-out rate, I dont claim anything. People will probably do it because they have to: running POSes etc. The rest will be left to the bots because as someone said earlier: why click for half an hour when ratting for half an hour will buy you twice the product you can produce? And since (earnings cap or not) this is a bots wet dream you will be able to consistently buy twice what you produce. If I was to put a prediction on a time-scale for this I would say by christmas with a few of the NPC goods holding on til next year due to stockpiling.
Originally by: LHA Tarawa As for encouraging bots, perhaps, but due to limitations on resources and depletion and such, the bot will be hard capped on what it produces to a level not much higher than the non-bot that spends 45 min a day kicking off 3 or 4 5-hour cycles. What, double the profit max?
bots dont care if they end up with less profit because there is no work involved. Bot profit is free profit. RSI induced profit is manual labour. Lets both open up card factories, Ill automate mine and you can hand produce yours and lets see who gets tired first.
Originally by: LHA Tarawa Compare that to mining where the 23.5/7 bot can generate an income 20+ times that of the non-bot that does it 5-10 hours a week.
Right. So now the bots mine AND PI, your point is what exactly?
I feel like ive been baited with this post tbh, how is it possible for people to be so dense?
Originally by: CCP Shadow bodily fluid
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Quantessa
Amarr TOG Empire DRACONIAN COVENANT
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Posted - 2010.07.14 11:16:00 -
[77]
If clicking is the issue switch to 96 hour cycles and double your isk per click.
If your corp mates not having PI resources is the issue suggest they set up some themselves. In fact if you organise production you should be able to get horizontal production within the corp. To be honest I'm not sure I believe your alleged altruism. Why would anyone work their butts off to give free stuff to their corp doing something boring for 5 hours a day? And if you are doing it out of altruism why not ask them to reciprocate by grinding rats for 5 hours a day and giving you all the isk?
It seems to me that you came up with a plan that was stupid and greedy and assumed PI would be completely passive like datacores. It's all very well stating you want no effort 8 alt multibox PI but if all you had to do was set things up then go collect every now and then the market would be swamped. P4 is already crashing in price at Jita because supply > demand.
Also you would devalue DUSK if you made PI too cheap. So what if console players take a planet when everyone in your 500 man corp has 3+ PI setups?
I think the big issue with the current way PI works is whether it is successfully macroed or not. If you could write undetectable macros to run 30 minute cycles all day then you completely break the economy. If that were to happen we would need more laborious gameplay (capchas or mingames for each extractor) not less laborious gameplay.
Have to think though that CCP knows something we don't and that the PI macroers will be caught and banned. On the face of it it seems rather wide open to this sort of cheating. If people can write macros to mine why would they not be able to write macros to extract?
******************************************** Jenkins! Chap with wings. Five rounds rapid. ********************************************
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Helgur
Steel Soldier's
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Posted - 2010.07.14 12:41:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Sempress Kaye Edited by: Sempress Kaye on 14/07/2010 08:50:18 Stop overdoing it and its real easy to manage, and hardly ever tedious.
It is actually nothing about overdoing, see post post 53 as I am really getting tired of repeating myself to people that are not bothered to read the thread before they post half thought-out arguments.
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Ari Chu
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Posted - 2010.07.14 12:44:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Quantessa If people can write macros to mine why would they not be able to write macros to extract?
In mining, you can set overview to just show the rock you want to mine. Macro detects that target disappeared and just locks the closest rock and pew pews it. A single Macro can be written that works for every system in the game.
In PI, the colony always centers on the CC, but macro's have to be individually written using mouse movement capture to go to each of the Extractors.
If CCP really wanted to get macros out of the Mining Business - they would NOT have rocks disappear when they are empty. They would allow miners to continue to happily mine at an empty rock, but would get nothing out of it.
If CCP wants Macros to take over PI, they will do as the whiners ask and allow people to simply reset all extractors from the Command Centers. Because the planets open centered on the Command center, this would allow a single macro to be written that just resets from there without needing to worry about the location of the extractors. ---
"The Galaxy is only as big as you make it." - presumably Eve Game Designers. |
Helgur
Steel Soldier's
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Posted - 2010.07.14 13:10:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Ari Chu
Originally by: Quantessa If people can write macros to mine why would they not be able to write macros to extract?
In PI, the colony always centers on the CC, but macro's have to be individually written using mouse movement capture to go to each of the Extractors.
You know there are other ways of automating the client, right?
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Ivorr Bigun
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Posted - 2010.07.14 13:19:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Helgur
Originally by: Ari Chu
Originally by: Quantessa If people can write macros to mine why would they not be able to write macros to extract?
In PI, the colony always centers on the CC, but macro's have to be individually written using mouse movement capture to go to each of the Extractors.
You know there are other ways of automating the client, right?
not to mention other ways of setting up your planet in the first place.
Make no mistake about it, this is far less complicated to macro than mining.
Originally by: CCP Shadow bodily fluid
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Nnam Pir
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.07.14 13:45:00 -
[82]
It takes me about 20 seconds per planet to get all of my extractors going again. Stop your whiny over-exaggerating.
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Helgur
Steel Soldier's
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Posted - 2010.07.14 13:57:00 -
[83]
1/10
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Rhaegor Stormborn
H A V O C Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.07.14 14:00:00 -
[84]
I really wish I had no trained the skills for PI. I can not bring myself to spend the 15 minutes of clicking each day to manage 10 planets (2 accounts with 5 planets each). It is just so tedious and not worth it.
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Sempress Kaye
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Posted - 2010.07.14 17:28:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Helgur Edited by: Helgur on 14/07/2010 13:13:04 Edited by: Helgur on 14/07/2010 13:07:07
Originally by: Sempress Kaye Edited by: Sempress Kaye on 14/07/2010 08:50:18 Stop overdoing it and its real easy to manage, and hardly ever tedious.
It is actually nothing about overdoing, see post post 53 as I am really getting tired of repeating myself to people that are not bothered to read the thread before they post half thought-out arguments.
I did read the entire thread and you merely evade the fact that you clearly STATE you're overdoing it. But in case you miss your own fine and obvious PI flaws that wear you down I'll quote you. Read:
Originally by: Helgur I have subscribed to 3 accounts which I have TRAINED 8 ALTS for P.I. Thats 40 PLANETS w/ extractors and processors. Doing the 5 HOUR CYCLE TIME I am spending SEVERAL HOURS EACH DAY just clicking on pixels.
There. I bolded the parts you seem to ignore. Tips granted to you before and some that havent been given:
1: - Bigger cycle times. 2: - Less alts. 3: - Bigger cycle times. 4: - Stop denying you're killing yourself by clicking for hours with this ridiculously overdone PI program you run.
It's you that makes the half thought-out arguments. Failing to recognize that makes it even more of a whine post.
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Zelda Wei
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Posted - 2010.07.14 18:05:00 -
[86]
A prototype for an improved PI with added sound.
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LHA Tarawa
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Posted - 2010.07.14 19:31:00 -
[87]
Let's say, for the sake of argument, they got rid of the stupid half-hour, 5-hour, 23-hour, 96-hour extract time and just made all extracters perma-run at max output up to depletion point.
You set up your colony. You show up every couple of days to collect the stuff it produces.
Knowing that you can be dang productive with only a week or so of training, (CC Upgrade 4 and Interplanetary Consolidation 4), what do you suppose the profitability would be? Well, R&D agents take WAY more skills, plus standings, and those top out at what? 50 million a month.
If PI were perma-run, it would pay, I'd guess, a max of 5 million a month maybe.
Since you could easily fuel many POSes off a single account, POS fuel from PI would be... what? 1 million a month for a large?
Let's take it to the other extreme as others are claiming it is. "Try going into PVP wit your guns set to not auto repeat...." Okay. Let's say you had to start an extractor every 2 seconds to keep them all going.... 23x7 all you did was sit there and start extractors...
In this case, I assume profits would be far higher than mining. Maybe 20 million an hour. It would cost a couple hundred million to fuel a POS for a month.
Okay, we've covered the extremes. So, where is the happy medium?
A "restart all extractors" button that lets you restart an entire planet in 10 seconds? Restart all 5 or 6 planets in less than a minute... Seems pretty close to the 5 million ISK a month end of the profitability scale to me.
Restart all of a type? So, 30 seconds per planet 2-3 minutes for 5?
Or, restart one at a time. 10 seconds per exstractor, a couple minutes per planet... 10-15 mninutes for 5 planets?
Yeah, this seems about right to me. Short enough that a lot of people will do it, but not so short that everyone will do it.
So, we've locked in that you have to be doing something for 2-3 minutes per planet. If not the clickfest that is spending 2-3 minutes per planet restarting extractors, what would you prefer they make you do for those 2 or 3 minutes per planet that would be less tedious?
Does this make me dense? I sure don't think so, but maybe I guess.
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LHA Tarawa
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Posted - 2010.07.14 19:38:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Rhaegor Stormborn I really wish I had no trained the skills for PI. I can not bring myself to spend the 15 minutes of clicking each day to manage 10 planets (2 accounts with 5 planets each). It is just so tedious and not worth it.
It will require less than 10% of the players doing PI to keep the universe more than adequately supplied with POS fuels, POS structures and nanite repair paste.
Therefore, we need atleast 9/10ths of the players to feel as you do.
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Helgur
Steel Soldier's
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Posted - 2010.07.14 19:54:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Sempress Kaye
Originally by: Helgur Edited by: Helgur on 14/07/2010 13:13:04 Edited by: Helgur on 14/07/2010 13:07:07
Originally by: Sempress Kaye Edited by: Sempress Kaye on 14/07/2010 08:50:18 Stop overdoing it and its real easy to manage, and hardly ever tedious.
It is actually nothing about overdoing, see post post 53 as I am really getting tired of repeating myself to people that are not bothered to read the thread before they post half thought-out arguments.
I did read the entire thread and you merely evade the fact that you clearly STATE you're overdoing it. But in case you miss your own fine and obvious PI flaws that wear you down I'll quote you. Read:
Originally by: Helgur I have subscribed to 3 accounts which I have TRAINED 8 ALTS for P.I. Thats 40 PLANETS w/ extractors and processors. Doing the 5 HOUR CYCLE TIME I am spending SEVERAL HOURS EACH DAY just clicking on pixels.
There. I bolded the parts you seem to ignore. Tips granted to you before and some that havent been given:
1: - Bigger cycle times. 2: - Less alts. 3: - Bigger cycle times. 4: - Stop denying you're killing yourself by clicking for hours with this ridiculously overdone PI program you run.
It's you that makes the half thought-out arguments. Failing to recognize that makes it even more of a whine post.
You are reiterating this over and over, yet I have clearly stated that running several alts with PI is totally within the realm of what is intended in this game as with everything else, having a simplified mechanic for restarting your processors won't crash the market and having for example two characters doing PI won't be even marginally enough to produce anything meaningful in quantity.
As several others also have pointed out CCP has said they are going to improve the UI towards less clicking in the next patch, I don't have any sources here but I take their word for it, and if it is true it goes further to prove my point.
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cyndrogen
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Posted - 2010.07.14 20:06:00 -
[90]
Thats because you have 3 extractors genius.
Originally by: Nnam Pir It takes me about 20 seconds per planet to get all of my extractors going again. Stop your whiny over-exaggerating.
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