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ChrisIsherwood	Posted - 2010.07.27 05:04:00 - [31] Originally by: Droxlyn Remember, every 3 months or so, the Insurance payout resets to a new value based off of some price history of the minerals. So even if the prices fall to a new Insurance Exchange rate, it won't last long and the falling mineral prices will resume. Ultimately, the price floor is 0.01 per unit of mineral. Drox The insurance changes were clearly going to lower the value of minerals. As you say, due to the insurance resets, they will continue to drop akthough they may plateau until the next insurance reset. But I don't think the floor is 0.01; the floor is when mcr mining 23x7 all month won't pay for a plex. I.e., a bot making $0.10 per hour would generate over 2 plex per month. So at existing plex prices, upper end miners would make a couple of million ISK per hour. Unless b*ts doing 30 minute PI cycles (which has 2000% the yield of 96 hr) can pay for the plex and profit and mining is just incremental income and it could go lower. A new Unholy Rage could change things though. Fewer people legitimately mining may not have the expected impact on the amount of minerals being mined. "may you live in interesting times"
Malcanis Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.07.27 10:09:00 - [32] Easy to do Easy to access Good income Pick any 2. Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
My Postman	Posted - 2010.07.27 10:19:00 - [33] Originally by: Caleb Ayrania Mining = lim Zero Risk. => More players => More mining => Lower prices FIX Aggression and risk reward distribution. Ex. Reduced response of concord in belts and plexes. Allow cooldown on security status, or easier re-entry into high sec. Allow free aggression from players of HIGH security. Ex. +5 shoots a -5 The winner shifts the security status thus converting a small amount into his status. Criminal win => +4.75 vs. -6. If the difference between pilot and system security is above 5 shooting is free for all, but gates and stations wont aggress unless the criminal is further than 10 from system security. More roaming and more player created justice and crime. The low sec barrier atm is segregating players to much.. ^^NEEDs tweaking on balance.. but basically a more dynamic system would be really nice. PVP is good GRIEFING is bad.. Question is where does one change into the other.. This post is so bad, don¦t know where to start. Go and biomass your ganking alt as everybody else does when sec status is ruined, not even ccp cares. Shooting a defenceless barge/exhumer is NOT PVP (player vs. player, as the other "vs." has not fitted any weapons to his ship). Go away.
beautyispain	Posted - 2010.07.27 11:39:00 - [34] Originally by: Travesty T Are the mineral prices ever going to go back up? i run 3 miners all from mining veld and plag and selling the refined ore. its getting harder and harder to buy plex each month, will there ever be an end to this depression? What you need is to find yourself a producer to deal with directly. What minerals are you selling and what¦s the monthly volume?
Zenon Mu Advanced Assemblies and Sciences	Posted - 2010.07.27 13:21:00 - [35] You're mining to buy plex, which means your ISK generating activity is tied to time in the first place (not fun or pvp or whatever). You have certain online times (capped) and a certain goal (1plex/month) to meet. In the end you get an ISK/h value above which your account is sustainable and below, not. I also understand that mining is an underpaid profession. My advice is that you start to raise your ISK/h value. Right now you mine and sell minerals. You can make more ISK/h by starting to manufacture (e.g. ships) in the case that [manufactured good] - [input materials from sell orders + BPC] > [selling minerals through sell orders] (I hope this is correct ;) ) Also, these two activities are not mutually exclusive, that means you can manufacture and mine at the same time.
SencneS Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks	Posted - 2010.07.27 13:51:00 - [36] Originally by: Caleb Ayrania Mining = lim Zero Risk. => More players => More mining => Lower prices FIX Aggression and risk reward distribution. Ex. Reduced response of concord in belts and plexes. Allow cooldown on security status, or easier re-entry into high sec. Allow free aggression from players of HIGH security. Ex. +5 shoots a -5 The winner shifts the security status thus converting a small amount into his status. Criminal win => +4.75 vs. -6. If the difference between pilot and system security is above 5 shooting is free for all, but gates and stations wont aggress unless the criminal is further than 10 from system security. More roaming and more player created justice and crime. The low sec barrier atm is segregating players to much.. ^^NEEDs tweaking on balance.. but basically a more dynamic system would be really nice. PVP is good GRIEFING is bad.. Question is where does one change into the other.. Reduced Concord Response, No, I think it needs to be high because this would effect EVERYONE not just miners. After all, if I knew I could pop someone and get away from concord in time I'd pop anyone that bumped me. Allow cool-down, as long as it's long enough. I think a short cool down wouldn't really be effective. Tears from care bears are sweet, drinking too many will only make you sick. 5+ Range of sec status = Concord free shooting. While I would absolutely LOVE this idea, since I have a 5.4 Sec Status I would be able to camp Jita and kill everyone for a long time before. How if I kill someone and I don't get Concorded, but loose sec, I could get behind that, as long as I can't sit in the high-sec side of a low-sec system and kill anyone coming in for hours on end I can get behind it. (Although that would be a classic) What I would like to see is "passive" expansion / reduction of low-sec. Imagine this... The current high-sec space is all reduced down to 0.5 sec in which concord will showup, for each concord ship that shows up the sec-status goes up by 0.01. It will continue to go up until it reaches 1.0. Or some sort of increase in sec-status related to crime rates. As Crime increases so does System Security. More to that point so do the surrounding systems on a lower scale. For example if a 0.5 gets so much crime it is raised a whole 1 point, each connecting system is raised 0.01. The end result is, some high-sec systems connected to low-sec systems could see enough crime in order to raise the nearby low-sec system as much as 0.05, which unless the low-sec system is 0.39 would turn it into a 0.5 sec system. Then basically that system is now high-sec space. Like wise, if a low-sec system sees a lot of gate camping as crime rate increases so does system sec. If enough crime happens you could get a 0.1 increase enough to push the low-sec system into high-sec status. HOWEVER it can go the other way as well. If Crime doesn't happen, the system-sec is slowly decreased, so what was one a backwater safe haven could be lowered into low-sec system as zero crime happens there. The point... If you really wanted to create a secure highway to say Solitude, all that needs to happen is you lose enough ships in the few systems that connect it to the rest of high-sec. And pirates wanting to keep their low-sec system low-sec need to keep their pirate activities moving. Or they could literally cripple another pirate organization by going and camping their system for a few day. This wouldn't be limited to just High-sec Low-sec space, 0.0 could be effected to, an alliance maintains a constant kill rate of n00bs or alts out at 0.0 could turn their base "high-sec" this way. (Not that I think anyone would, and it would have to be very low increases because of wars) Clearly this idea comes with a mountain of holes and bad ideas, but it's more of something to build on. I like the idea that high-sec could become low and low could become high given the crime rates but thinking it out it's not that simple. Amarr for Life
Rhivre Caldari TarNec manufacturing disaster	Posted - 2010.07.27 14:41:00 - [37] Originally by: My Postman This post is so bad, don¦t know where to start. Go and biomass your ganking alt as everybody else does when sec status is ruined, not even ccp cares. Shooting a defenceless barge/exhumer is NOT PVP (player vs. player, as the other "vs." has not fitted any weapons to his ship). Go away. Quoting for posterity. Gotta be the first time anyone has ever suggested that Caleb actually undocks Even more shocking suggesting Caleb does PvP
SurrenderMonkey	Posted - 2010.07.27 14:44:00 - [38] Edited by: SurrenderMonkey on 27/07/2010 14:45:13 Originally by: Zenon Mu I also understand that mining is an underpaid profession. Mining is not underpaid. Mining pays what it is worth. Originally by: SencneS Reduced Concord Response, No, I think it needs to be high because this would effect EVERYONE not just miners. After all, if I knew I could pop someone and get away from concord in time I'd pop anyone that bumped me. "Reduced Concord response" does not mean "time to escape from concord". You cannot escape from concord. Doing so is considered an exploit. A slower response time would simply increase the probability of the other guy going kaboom before concord pops you. It would not allow you to escape. --------------- Faction-Militia:Player-Alliance::Newbie-corp:Player-corp
Alotta Fachina	Posted - 2010.07.27 15:50:00 - [39] I think they should reduce the amount of ore in belts by about 75% That would choke the available minerals and make them more valuable. You won't be able to stop macros sadly. Where there is a will there is a way. But think about that...either that or reduce the yield per laser.
Ron Livingston	Posted - 2010.07.27 16:23:00 - [40] First off.. I'm a miner. When I started eve I thought that I would get some mining skills so I could mine to pay for my pvp. What a silly little noob I was. If I had focused on my combat skills I would have made much more doing missions. Oh well. The reason for all the miner whines is that mining makes **** for money, especially when compared to other activities that are just as risk free like high sec missioning. This lack of isk doesn't really bother me.. I live in WH currently and mainly use my indy character to make stuff for my pvp character to be a bit more selfsufficent. To the OP.. why run 3 miners to pay for 3 accounts.. why not just 1 to pay for 1 account. If more people followed suit then maybe miners would make a little more. CCP ending Macros would be great.. not that it would instantly make mining more profitable but it would end people making isk while sleeping which annoys me. Something that could be done to stop miner whines... CCP could add more mining missions that actually have good isk/LP rewards that require lots of minerals. This would help stabilize miner income, and the mineral prices would eventually rise to comparable values due to lact minerals because the miners would be running missions. So CCP could almost pick the mineral costs.. and mineral prices would be different based on closness to the mining mission hubs.
Urich VonWolfenstein	Posted - 2010.07.28 02:09:00 - [41] Originally by: Alotta Fachina I think they should reduce the amount of ore in belts by about 75% That would choke the available minerals and make them more valuable. You won't be able to stop macros sadly. Where there is a will there is a way. But think about that...either that or reduce the yield per laser. I think this is the only logic answer to this problem. Reducing belts sizes by half would make it more scares and eventually raise the price of minerals. also it will encourage low sec mining ops or ninja mining that will be more interesting for pirates and miners since it prevents people afk mining, with the ship losses from pvprs and miners the ship market will boom and demand for minerals will rise dramatically. Anyway u look at it its a win win isk for miners and kills for pirates
SurrenderMonkey	Posted - 2010.07.28 02:24:00 - [42] Originally by: Urich VonWolfenstein I think this is the only logic answer to this problem. I am pretty sure that it isn't actually established to be a problem - at least, not one that needs to be addressed in the game's design. It's ridiculous that people seem to think they are entitled to a certain level of income, and entitled to have that level be reachable by their profession of choice. If a given activity isn't paying out as much as you want it to, do what the rest of us do: Find a new activity. --------------- Faction-Militia:Player-Alliance::Newbie-corp:Player-corp
Mensche	Posted - 2010.07.28 07:15:00 - [43] Way back, when my character was young, mineral prices were much different then they are now. Trit was less than a 1 isk and nocx was over 250. It was actually more profitable to mine jaspet. This is what the developers want, to make people leave highsec. There isn't a depression in mineral prices, just the beginning of the end for the mineral boom you're accustomed to. If highsec mining isn't cutting it for you, join a low/nullsec corp and get something more valuable to mine. Or expand your capabilities so you're not dependent on mining.
Urich VonWolfenstein	Posted - 2010.07.28 07:50:00 - [44] Originally by: SurrenderMonkey Originally by: Urich VonWolfenstein I think this is the only logic answer to this problem. I am pretty sure that it isn't actually established to be a problem - at least, not one that needs to be addressed in the game's design. It's ridiculous that people seem to think they are entitled to a certain level of income, and entitled to have that level be reachable by their profession of choice. If a given activity isn't paying out as much as you want it to, do what the rest of us do: Find a new activity. I dont mine nor mission and its not a problem for me, just it would solve alot of these delemas. high sec will become a fist come 1st serve in the belts and miners dont go out in2 low sec to mine so eventualy the prices will rise for them and alot will take a risk in2 low sec, then the mass loses of mining barges will increase the demand for minerals and the economy will get back 2 normal...well thats wat i think so fell free to prove me wrong. oh like some1 said just join a low sec minning corp, thy pay well i hear. But still im not a miner, but id recon it will be way more fun with a bit off thrill and live in it rather then this afk can filling rubish
Xereyn	Posted - 2010.07.28 08:46:00 - [45] Originally by: Urich VonWolfenstein high sec will become a fist come 1st serve in the belts Hey, awesome. In my timezone downtime is at 7pm - it'll just be me and the macros. Those belts will be nothing but dust by the time the Europeans get home from work, and as for the Americans - they'll never see an asteroid again. CAN YOU SEE THE FLAW IN THIS IDEA YET
Companion Trollin You are going too fast	Posted - 2010.07.28 11:18:00 - [46] Edited by: Companion Trollin on 28/07/2010 11:23:46 This is the best MD troll thread in a good while, n1 m8. edit: The entitlement kids in this thread who think it's a problem that minerals "aren't worth what I think they should be" are also pretty comic. Get over yourselves - think harder and come up with a new business model instead of lobbying for someone to fix your problems by changing the market for you. **ing sheeple. ♥ Originally by:** CCP Shadow Off-topic posts dealing with sexual orientation have been removed. Please keep this discussion on-topic. Thanks. -- Shadow
Cyniac	Posted - 2010.07.28 12:19:00 - [47] Originally by: Travesty T i think the only real solution would be to double or even triple the amount of minerals from high sec needed for production. Hmm... not sure this would have the intended effect to be honest. Sure demand would seem to go up, but so would supply. More nefarious - if ships become too expensive ship turnover will decrease (people might just get a tad more careful) which might have the opposite effect and you end up with more expensive ships and cheaper minerals to make them (albeit, more of them). Reducing supply by making the life of the macro miner fractionally harder would be more likely to give you the desired effect.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries manufacturing disaster	Posted - 2010.07.28 14:12:00 - [48] Originally by: My Postman Originally by: Caleb Ayrania Mining = lim Zero Risk. => More players => More mining => Lower prices FIX Aggression and risk reward distribution. Ex. Reduced response of concord in belts and plexes. Allow cooldown on security status, or easier re-entry into high sec. Allow free aggression from players of HIGH security. Ex. +5 shoots a -5 The winner shifts the security status thus converting a small amount into his status. Criminal win => +4.75 vs. -6. If the difference between pilot and system security is above 5 shooting is free for all, but gates and stations wont aggress unless the criminal is further than 10 from system security. More roaming and more player created justice and crime. The low sec barrier atm is segregating players to much.. ^^NEEDs tweaking on balance.. but basically a more dynamic system would be really nice. PVP is good GRIEFING is bad.. Question is where does one change into the other.. This post is so bad, don¦t know where to start. Go and biomass your ganking alt as everybody else does when sec status is ruined, not even ccp cares. Shooting a defenceless barge/exhumer is NOT PVP (player vs. player, as the other "vs." has not fitted any weapons to his ship). Go away. I agree with you, CALEB go back to C and P, we don't need your griefer tactics in here! Also postmans argument is valid, because my hair is shaped as a falcon!
NoChance Lance	Posted - 2010.07.28 14:59:00 - [49] Originally by: Urich VonWolfenstein high sec will become a fist come 1st serve Fisting rarely, if ever, does that to me. _______________________________________________ I'm not afraid of anything or anyone, unless they are wearing a mask. Diego Maradona 2010
ZenSun Total Mayhem. Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2010.07.28 18:44:00 - [50] Veldspar should move, you get in the way of one of those hulking formations of rock and you get a bruised hulk..
Companion Trollin You are going too fast	Posted - 2010.07.28 20:24:00 - [51] Originally by: ZenSun Veldspar should move, you get in the way of one of those hulking formations of rock and you get a bruised hulk.. Hey, that's a good idea. While you're at it I think miners should have to wrangle veldspar - maybe lasso it or herd it into a canyon, before they can mine it. Oh, and miners should have to ride their hulks - with saddles and stuff, yeah, that'd be awesome. Can I have some spurs and a pair of chaps now? ♥ Originally by: CCP Shadow Off-topic posts dealing with sexual orientation have been removed. Please keep this discussion on-topic. Thanks. -- Shadow
Caleb Ayrania Gallente TarNec manufacturing disaster	Posted - 2010.07.28 22:21:00 - [52] Originally by: Companion Trollin Originally by: ZenSun Veldspar should move, you get in the way of one of those hulking formations of rock and you get a bruised hulk.. Hey, that's a good idea. While you're at it I think miners should have to wrangle veldspar - maybe lasso it or herd it into a canyon, before they can mine it. Oh, and miners should have to ride their hulks - with saddles and stuff, yeah, that'd be awesome. Can I have some spurs and a pair of chaps now? SInce Ji is absent.. I will relay his reply.. REPORTED! Tycoon wannabe go here: SCC Lounge ****tails and Dreams.
Schalac Caldari Apocalypse Reign	Posted - 2010.07.28 22:30:00 - [53] My solution would be to have items that drop from missions and such reprocess into parts for TII items instead of minerals. I reprocessed a bunch of crap that I had in hangers the other day and even with craptastic reprocessing skills I got over 200 mil in minerals from it. Now multiply that by all of the other people that reprocess junk into mins and it's hitting the miners hard. SCHALAC HAS SPOKEN
Danielle Darrieux	Posted - 2010.07.29 06:20:00 - [54] Originally by: Xereyn Originally by: Urich VonWolfenstein high sec will become a fist come 1st serve in the belts Hey, awesome. In my timezone downtime is at 7pm - it'll just be me and the macros. Those belts will be nothing but dust by the time the Europeans get home from work, and as for the Americans - they'll never see an asteroid again. CAN YOU SEE THE FLAW IN THIS IDEA YET geas thy can hit the low sec belts then lol
Danari Syncore	Posted - 2010.07.29 08:36:00 - [55] I don't see the issue. Plex float like everything else. Miner earns less isk and buys price-dropped things with it.
Smelly Bait	Posted - 2010.07.29 11:06:00 - [56] Edited by: Smelly Bait on 29/07/2010 11:08:15 Its so easy, fix lag and more supercaps will be blown up, more dead super caps is increased min prices. Before this happends u do have to wait for 18 month's since ccp dont care about fixing the lag and 0.0 warefare. Most mins consumed out of high sec/drone regions/refine loot ends up in 0.0 trough BS (cta's ect), caps, super caps, mods Before someone is going to say do empire puppies dont use bs's ect. I say yes they do but most build them selve and with all the mission guides around i dont see alot of bs's destoyed by mission npc's.
Dred Control	Posted - 2010.07.29 17:15:00 - [57] Originally by: Brock Nelson Originally by: Travesty T so how many miners could eve support? Unlimited. Mining was never profitable, you're better off doing missions or getting into more advanced industrial profession Mining was never profitable?! What are you smoking? Maybe what you really meant is that L4 missions or other industrial professions are MORE profitable per unit time spent playing Eve.
Haigon Jr	Posted - 2010.08.03 07:07:00 - [58] a way to do is make sure you can only mine veldspar and scordite in high sec. that will allow more people in low sec/null sec and it will keep macro players out
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.08.03 07:45:00 - [59] Quote: i think the only real solution would be to double or even triple the amount of minerals from high sec needed for production Nope, all you'll see is people re-activating dusted mining accounts and start mining again. It's market, if anyone see an opportunity, zillions of lemmings will soon follow and crash it, regardless of how you or CCP try to counter it. Quote: I don't think mineral prices have been down far enough for long enough to justify any changes in module recipes or anything else. It is undeniable that there are too many miners. There are not too many miners, there are too many idiots and of course this is incurable. This is not real life where you have to make a living on whatever your (mis)fortune tosses at you. This is a game with tons of opportunities and simil-player driven market that penalizes stupid lemmings that cannot even calculate they earn a pittance or even have losses (some reactions, several T2 ships...). It's actually a genuine fun to see people struggling to lose, without a single brain cell pushing them to ask why others are making billions on their shoulders. Because if real life you might be forced to slave-wages, you are NOT forced to do the same in a video game (where you actually pay it). Quote: I think this is the only logic answer to this problem. Reducing belts sizes by half would make it more scares and eventually raise the price of minerals. also it will encourage low sec mining ops or ninja mining that will be more interesting for pirates and miners since it prevents people afk mining Not at all. All you get (I have been there in the past!) is that hugemassive hulks fleet log in at server restart time and clean the belts in 4 hours like before middle of 2009 and everyone in non EU time zones would simply be screwed over and always find empty systems. Quote: a way to do is make sure you can only mine veldspar and scordite in high sec. that will allow more people in low sec/null sec and it will keep macro players out Just a reminder about how large 0.0 zones and also smaller renter zones are all about macros. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Dr Sheepbringer Gallente	Posted - 2010.08.03 08:01:00 - [60] Cheap minerals, mmm....mine boys, mine! Stop whining.

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