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Why advertise horrible bugs as a feature?

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 6 post(s)
xttz GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2010.07.27 16:58:00 - [1] Breaking News: Heavy spatial distortion interrupts fight in C-J6MT "C-J6MT, Insmother - At 23:40 of 112.07.26, the violent clashes between WHITE NOISE., ATLAS and allies came to an abrupt halt after severe spatial distortions appeared on the battlefield." I'm not sure if we should be impressed or dismayed at this. Game-breaking faults posted on the login page, spun into an advert for 'cool stuff happening in space'. If CCP are going to post this crap it should at least be honest: "C-J6MT, Insmother - At 23:40 of 112.07.26, the potentially epic fleet fight between WHITE NOISE., ATLAS and allies came to an abrupt halt after we failed to fix lag issues ongoing since 2 expansions ago. Hundreds of players logged off in disgust."
Seith Silverstein Something Rotten	Posted - 2010.07.27 17:07:00 - [2] Because the ISC != CCP. ISC is trying to report on a huge fight that didn't take place because of lag. Since they're an RP organization, they can't say "lag". As such, they mumbo-jumbo'd something about spatial distortion. Why CCP posted it on their front page is a good question though. Remember, by and large the low-level devs and coders (including people who upload things to the website) want the game to be awesome, and want the players to be happy. It's the idiotic suits upstairs that want you to walk around in stations while 50vs50 fights remain unresolved. Perhaps it's some kind of inter-company propaganda/social commentary? Perhaps everything the ISC prints ends up on the CCP page regardless? Perhaps they're using the same RNG that gives us 100,000 ABs/MWDs for mission loot? The world may never know. Originally by: CCP Soundwave I am literally the internet
Professor Tarantula Hedion University	Posted - 2010.07.27 17:08:00 - [3] So which alliance are the goon alts in? My deepest sympathies. Prof. Tarantula, Esq.
Joe SMASH You Got A Purty Mouth	Posted - 2010.07.27 17:08:00 - [4] Edited by: Joe SMASH on 27/07/2010 17:08:42 Because even the ISC is beginning to get sick of the lag. (I do not speak for them, nor am I a member. (I just have a hunch they are tired of the broken game as well.)) ----------------------------------- Originally by: Kali Zero Warp core stabilizers are like condoms. Nice and safe, but they make it a little less fun for everyone involved.
Shobon Welp GoonFleet Band of Brothers	Posted - 2010.07.27 17:13:00 - [5] Originally by: Professor Tarantula So which alliance are the goon alts in? all of them
GoingOffRoading Gallente Quantum Cats Syndicate	Posted - 2010.07.27 17:38:00 - [6] Its a little odd that people always complain about lag in 500+ vs 500+ fights. How many multiplayer games support 1000+ players fighting eachother at once in one spot together... Even FW gets laggy but I don't beat my chest over it.
Gladys Pank Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2010.07.27 17:43:00 - [7] I especially like how they use epic fleet battles as a promotional focus because it sounds exciting, even if its completely broken at this time. Meanwhile they continue to develop wow in space because game breaking faults are of no interest to whoring subscriptions. Walking about in stations doing nothing is far more urgent than making the game playable. I am sure you will agree, CCP have already said so. Signature locked for inappropriate image. Zymurgist
Zelda Wei	Posted - 2010.07.27 17:48:00 - [8] Be part of the Solution not a big Cheese.
Xenon Barinade Caldari Helix Protocol HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.07.27 17:48:00 - [9] I am currently playing travian because no matter how big the numbers are the server never laggs its pretty much eve without lagg You know its bad when fleet fights in a browser game run smoothly and fail horribly STILL in a true mmo
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2010.07.27 17:59:00 - [10] In reality fleet fights is the only problem that has several devs dedicated to it, to quote: Quote: The others! (4 teams, approximately 15 developers) Iæve now accounted for 14 teams, but we release plan for 18 teams. So what are the rest doing? Well, we have a team dedicated to testing automation. Currently they are focusing on "fleet fight in a can," which is a borderline sentient AI-testing automation feature that allows us to instantly simulate interesting aspects of massive fleet fights, getting tighter feedback loops to the expert team that is working on improvements on that front (we are talking MIT Ph.D. here). There is a team dedicated to making tools and reporting mechanism for the customer service department. The core infrastructure team (patch delivery mechanisms, among other duties) is in there, and then thereæs a another team dedicated to performance monitoring and improvements. On top of that we have some (space) cowboys running around injecting code into Tranquility live to debug fleet battles and fix exploits (these are the same people that do code reviews and architectural integrity checks for the EVE codebase). This is where the MIT Ph.D. come into play. This doesnæt fall under the classification of a development team but contains computer scientists, QA people, operational staff and others. They are hard-at-work (often well-outside normal working hours) profiling and diagnosing all sorts of lag-related issues or trying to catch fringe cases that are impossible to reproduce on our test servers. This team will be greatly assisted by the "fleet fight in a can" sentient AI. That make about 7 developers plus the "space cowboys" as the people working on finding what is the source of the fleet fight lag and trying to fix it. A large percentage of the 37 or so people working on the core of the EVE game.

xttz GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2010.07.27 18:09:00 - [11] Originally by: GoingOffRoading Its a little odd that people always complain about lag in 500+ vs 500+ fights. How many multiplayer games support 1000+ players fighting eachother at once in one spot together... Even FW gets laggy but I don't beat my chest over it. Actually in the months leading up to Dominion things were pretty good. If you asked for a reinforced node with enough warning 1000 people could fight with little issue. There was some degree of lag, but it was a slowed rate of weapons fire rather than one side looking at a black screen while their fleet exploded. I guess the root of the issue is that attempting to support immense battles is a waste of time, as people always bring more. However three glaring mistakes spring to mind: 1) There was no testing methodology to backtrack what went wrong code-wise in Dominion, and fix it. 2) Dominion itself was an abortion. The expansion intended to revamp huge blobs on sov warfare resulted in even larger fleets being needed to break the defensive bonus. CCP could have just as easily built the mechanics based around one of the many suggestions to split fleets up, such as having to SBU the gates outside the system you're trying to take. 3) These failures get spun into interesting stories rather than what they are - a lession in how not to develop something.
Doctor Ungabungas Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2010.07.27 18:15:00 - [12] Originally by: GoingOffRoading How many multiplayer games support 1000+ players fighting eachother at once in one spot together... The well known internet spaceship game Eve Online used to support 1000+ players fighting at one spot. I can't imagine why they took that feature out.
Ford Mersombre Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2010.07.27 18:25:00 - [13] Originally by: xttz Breaking News: Heavy spatial distortion interrupts fight in C-J6MT "C-J6MT, Insmother - At 23:40 of 112.07.26, the violent clashes between WHITE NOISE., ATLAS and allies came to an abrupt halt after severe spatial distortions appeared on the battlefield." I'm not sure if we should be impressed or dismayed at this. Game-breaking faults posted on the login page, spun into an advert for 'cool stuff happening in space'. If CCP are going to post this crap it should at least be honest: "C-J6MT, Insmother - At 23:40 of 112.07.26, the potentially epic fleet fight between WHITE NOISE., ATLAS and allies came to an abrupt halt after we failed to fix lag issues ongoing since 2 expansions ago. Hundreds of players logged off in disgust." I thought it was actually kind of clever for the ISD to put that in so they could remain IC while reporting on a huge fleet battle that got interrupted by lag.
Dirk Mortice	Posted - 2010.07.27 18:36:00 - [14] Originally by: GoingOffRoading Its a little odd that people always complain about lag in 500+ vs 500+ fights. How many multiplayer games support 1000+ players fighting eachother at once in one spot together... Even FW gets laggy but I don't beat my chest over it. I used to have lots of fun in some 300v300 fights in the amazing game "Eve Online" These days I experience jump lag with less than 100 people in fleet, never mind actually shooting at something
Pennwisedom Gallente Sublime.	Posted - 2010.07.27 18:44:00 - [15] I think we need to understand the difference between "advertising" and "in game news trying to report in character." So the real question here is why make a terrible thread?
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2010.07.27 18:46:00 - [16] Originally by: Doctor Ungabungas Originally by: GoingOffRoading How many multiplayer games support 1000+ players fighting eachother at once in one spot together... The well known internet spaceship game Eve Online used to support 1000+ players fighting at one spot. I can't imagine why they took that feature out. Because ccp massively underestimated the organizational skills of the moar dedicated players who actually got their alliances to the point they could eventually field thousands of capital ships. In a single fight no less. I seriously don't think ccp was ready for that to happen so soon and that was reflected in their initial reasoning for bringing titans into the game because they stated "welp they cost so gosh darned much and take so annoyingly long to build only a few mega alliances will ever make one and then only for e-peening". Riiiiiiiight.. Remember that first 1000 ship fight that failed utterly due to lag? Then the rage when someone dug up some obscure video interview with Ovuer(maybe?) talking about how awesome it was that the players could actually get 1000 players all in one place to do something for an overall goal spoken in a wonderous tone of disbelief? I mean seriously the guy looked kinda stunned as he talked about it like he was thinking to himself "wtf have we unleashed?!?" as he talked. Of couse we all know how the forums completely missed that part and just flamed on the part of him bragging about a 1000 ship fight. But the flaming eventualy got ccp to hopping and we had our brief summer of fun with laggish free 1000 ship fights. Then Dominion rolled in and poof instantly back to even worse nullsec fleet lag than the bad ole days. But now to actually answer your question. Blame all the major alliance leaders as they were the ones who threatened to drop their newly lag free capital blob on anything that tried to claim any new territory because boo hoo ccp nerfed their massive afk empire mechanic that made them multi trillionares with little effort after they got enough cynojammers up. Small startup corp wanting to claim a fairly worthless system in a strategically useless area so they could improve it to make some decent isk and enjoy the game by 'owning' a little bit of territory? Pffft. Hotdrop the titans and dd that hauler!! Take that CCP! Then Dominion which showed no hint of any forseeable lag on the test server shipped a week later and.. well no need to repeat common knowledge. And so The Age Of Nap was born. Originally by: Balsak Eve-Online, the game that is so awesome people are willing to give CCP money so that they may have the privilege to bash it.
darla voglio	Posted - 2010.07.27 18:52:00 - [17] Originally by: Pennwisedom I think we need to understand the difference between "advertising" and "in game news trying to report in character." So the real question here is why make a terrible thread? Becouse many do not have this difference clear in their mind, not everybody likes to roleplay, a lot more do not even care and many others are angry with CCP for this or that reason. Personally I like IC reports, and in this case they even managed to write it as the events were unfolding and they managed to remain In Character and still report of one of the worst laggy battles ever.
Icantseeanythinginthis	Posted - 2010.07.27 19:00:00 - [18] Because they better get use to it, a console game is more important.
iP0D	Posted - 2010.07.27 19:14:00 - [19] Originally by: Zeba And so The Age Of Nap was born. Which gave way to the age of Paypal Titans & Milfs at volume discount.

CCP Manifest C C P	Posted - 2010.07.27 19:31:00 - [20] Originally by: Seith Silverstein Because the ISC != CCP. ISC is trying to report on a huge fight that didn't take place because of lag. Since they're an RP organization, they can't say "lag". As such, they mumbo-jumbo'd something about spatial distortion. Why CCP posted it on their front page is a good question though. Remember, by and large the low-level devs and coders (including people who upload things to the website) want the game to be awesome, and want the players to be happy. It's the idiotic suits upstairs that want you to walk around in stations while 50vs50 fights remain unresolved. Perhaps it's some kind of inter-company propaganda/social commentary? Perhaps everything the ISC prints ends up on the CCP page regardless? Perhaps they're using the same RNG that gives us 100,000 ABs/MWDs for mission loot? The world may never know. Seith Silverstein hit it on the head with his first couple sentences. Using RP terms to try not to break immersion. Even knowing this, I still /facepalmed_epic at this when I read it earlier. I can assure you that CCP isn't suddenly thinking we're going to pull the wool over your eyes and say lag is a feature. Sfortunatamente(Italian for major bummer), since we like to trumpet player news like the ISC stuff, we Facebook'd it as well, which we shouldn't have done, giving the appearance that we somehow endorse this RP "justification" as our new stand on lag. Lag is an evil terrible monster that we want to strangle and bury. We hates it. HATES IT. To further clarify, RP/ISC news gets autopopulated to the front page and in many places around the site. So, because we like "player driven" news to appear there alongside the content RP news, that's how it got there. --CCP Manifest--


Monkey Saturday Unknown Soldiers The Spire Collective	Posted - 2010.07.27 19:43:00 - [21] Wow seems that the player driven news left ccp with some public egg on face issues. What do you plan on doing about that if I may ask? Myself, I can see 2 options. #1: ccp will release a public notification telling everyone they are aware their last 2 expansions have increased the lag issue and they will be working full force to fix that as it breaks the core selling point of their game (and give a realistic timetable to completion). #2: stop or severely edit player driven news articles. I have a good idea which one would end up being adopted.
TheStarman Blue Republic	Posted - 2010.07.27 19:44:00 - [22] Originally by: CCP Manifest Manifest being a bro See, its not the devs that we have the problem with, its your CEO/Board of Directors that I want to hit over the head with my prosthetic leg. I'd buy a few rounds for the devs.
xttz GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2010.07.27 19:57:00 - [23] Originally by: CCP Manifest Sfortunatamente(Italian for major bummer), since we like to trumpet player news like the IC stuff, we Facebook'd it as well, which we shouldn't have done, giving the appearance that we somehow endorse this RP "justification" as our new stand on lag. Lag is an evil terrible monster that we want to strangle and bury. We hates it. HATES IT. Great. I didn't actually didn't expect this thread to work, but hey here you are. Now that I (hopefully still) have your attention, here is my point: With Dominion you had a great opportunity to reduce the need for constantly increasing fleet battles, by making simple game mechanics changes. For exmaple: my post above regarding putting SBU's on the gates outside the system being fought over. Why was this chance fluffed so badly? Instead we now have a system that brings even more people out at a single place and time. Are there any plans to revisit these mechanics in the near future?
Ghaylenty	Posted - 2010.07.27 19:57:00 - [24] Originally by: GoingOffRoading Its a little odd that people always complain about lag in 500+ vs 500+ fights. How many multiplayer games support 1000+ players fighting eachother at once in one spot together... Even FW gets laggy but I don't beat my chest over it. the thing is, it worked. or at least, it used to. so we have EVERY right to complain, as they have quite literally taken eve on a steep downhill decline in quality since 2-3 expansions ago. i actually fly amarr
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2010.07.27 20:01:00 - [25] Oh look, a thread that's about a day late http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1359850

CCP Manifest C C P	Posted - 2010.07.27 20:17:00 - [26] Originally by: Monkey Saturday Wow seems that the player driven news left ccp with some public egg on face issues. What do you plan on doing about that if I may ask? Myself, I can see 2 options. #1: ccp will release a public notification telling everyone they are aware their last 2 expansions have increased the lag issue and they will be working full force to fix that as it breaks the core selling point of their game (and give a realistic timetable to completion). #2: stop or severely edit player driven news articles. I have a good idea which one would end up being adopted. There are so many more options than those! You've seen Inception right? How about Men in Black? Don't make me go One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest! On a more serious note, the community team is going to continue working with those operating on the complicated "lag" issue to make sure their progress is communicated clearly via dev blogs. It's clear that more "insider" knowledge is important to the fanbase and inclusion in the progress is as well. Stopping player driven news articles would be crazy. We wouldn't do that. We enjoy reading them! Severely editing them is also crazy as well. Honestly, I just consider this a hiccup. An unfortunate one, but the amount of good that the Interstellar Correspondents do bring, even if they can't be telling all of New Eden's stories, far outweighs a bit-too-much flair with the use of RP language. --CCP Manifest--

Corozan Aspinall Party Time Inc.	Posted - 2010.07.27 20:22:00 - [27] Edited by: Corozan Aspinall on 27/07/2010 20:23:30 This thread is absolute hokum. Truly. I really don't understand. If the o/p was said correspondent tasked with reporting the situation what specifically would he have written? Bearing in mind there has to be a reason for the fight to end and it is the reporters tacit responsibility to report that. I really have never in all my days come across a more idiotic and mindless premise for a half-arsed rant about absolutely nothing at all! edit: Excess bile removed.
Monkey Saturday Unknown Soldiers The Spire Collective	Posted - 2010.07.27 20:27:00 - [28] Originally by: CCP Manifest On a more serious note, the community team is going to continue working with those operating on the complicated "lag" issue to make sure their progress is communicated clearly via dev blogs. It's clear that more "insider" knowledge is important to the fanbase and inclusion in the progress is as well. Nice to finally hear that. My subscription runs out on Saturday. Lets hope this dev blog happens before then and totally wows me.
Cailais Amarr THE ORDAINED	Posted - 2010.07.27 20:42:00 - [29] Originally by: CCP Manifest Even knowing this, I still /facepalmed_epic at this when I read it earlier. I don't know why youre /facepalming. They're only trying to report the game as is, as best they can. C. the hydrostatic capsule blog

CCP Manifest C C P	Posted - 2010.07.27 21:03:00 - [30] Originally by: xttz Originally by: CCP Manifest Sfortunatamente(Italian for major bummer), since we like to trumpet player news like the IC stuff, we Facebook'd it as well, which we shouldn't have done, giving the appearance that we somehow endorse this RP "justification" as our new stand on lag. Lag is an evil terrible monster that we want to strangle and bury. We hates it. HATES IT. Great. I didn't actually didn't expect this thread to work, but hey here you are. Now that I (hopefully still) have your attention, here is my point: With Dominion you had a great opportunity to reduce the need for constantly increasing fleet battles, by making simple game mechanics changes. For exmaple: my post above regarding putting SBU's on the gates outside the system being fought over. Why was this chance fluffed so badly? Instead we now have a system that brings even more people out at a single place and time. Are there any plans to revisit these mechanics in the near future? You still have my attention :) There are some really cool suggestions out there on how to change "simple game mechanics" to help address fleet battles--many of which came via forums, Fanfest and the CSM. Of course, none of them are really ever that simple to change or design in a sandbox game, as any change can have a Butterfly Effect. Could mean for some a calm, warm sunny California day. For others it could mean a typhoon halfway around the world. Of course Dominion wasn't our only opportunity to change mechanics surrounding fleet fights or their "objectives". We will always continue to patch and expand. I don't know of any IMMEDIATE plans to do any revamps on game design for fleets/blobs, but there is opportunity in the future. The freedom of EVE (where you can go pretty much wherever you want) and the basic human impetus that knows bringing 22 pilots to a 20 pilot fight increases your odds of winnning, both make for even more complicated design process. Furthermore, no matter how you incentivize people towards objectives, you still will end up with people wanting to Zerg Rush. We've seen it constantly in our space travels. Even in non combat as when we increased the operational limit of Jita. It's a healthy phenomenon to have, sure, so no complaining here.* *That last paragraph included just as an aside, I'm sure everyone reading this already knows that. --CCP Manifest--


Grath Telkin Amarr Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2010.07.27 21:42:00 - [31] Edited by: Grath Telkin on 27/07/2010 21:42:28 Originally by: CCP Manifest Originally by: xttz Originally by: CCP Manifest Sfortunatamente(Italian for major bummer), since we like to trumpet player news like the IC stuff, we Facebook'd it as well, which we shouldn't have done, giving the appearance that we somehow endorse this RP "justification" as our new stand on lag. Lag is an evil terrible monster that we want to strangle and bury. We hates it. HATES IT. Great. I didn't actually didn't expect this thread to work, but hey here you are. Now that I (hopefully still) have your attention, here is my point: With Dominion you had a great opportunity to reduce the need for constantly increasing fleet battles, by making simple game mechanics changes. For exmaple: my post above regarding putting SBU's on the gates outside the system being fought over. Why was this chance fluffed so badly? Instead we now have a system that brings even more people out at a single place and time. Are there any plans to revisit these mechanics in the near future? You still have my attention :) There are some really cool suggestions out there on how to change "simple game mechanics" to help address fleet battles--many of which came via forums, Fanfest and the CSM. Of course, none of them are really ever that simple to change or design in a sandbox game, as any change can have a Butterfly Effect. Could mean for some a calm, warm sunny California day. For others it could mean a typhoon halfway around the world. Of course Dominion wasn't our only opportunity to change mechanics surrounding fleet fights or their "objectives". We will always continue to patch and expand. I don't know of any IMMEDIATE plans to do any revamps on game design for fleets/blobs, but there is opportunity in the future. The freedom of EVE (where you can go pretty much wherever you want) and the basic human impetus that knows bringing 22 pilots to a 20 pilot fight increases your odds of winnning, both make for even more complicated design process. Furthermore, no matter how you incentivize people towards objectives, you still will end up with people wanting to Zerg Rush. We've seen it constantly in our space travels. Even in non combat as when we increased the operational limit of Jita. It's a healthy phenomenon to have, sure, so no complaining here.* That last paragraph included just as an aside, I'm sure everyone reading this already knows that. So what your saying is, that 0.0 will stay screwed for the forseeable future so that you can add to an already drowning playerbase by adding WiS, that the current player base, is STRONGLY against until you fix the game. We'd like this clarified so those of us considering canceling accounts (pretty much all of the 0.0 playerbase) can either go ahead with the choice, or wait you out a bit longer. Read this carefully and show it to somebody in charge:* There is a thread nearing 100 pages of people posting about NOT wanting WiS OR Dust until you fix the game, which is entirely being ignored by the Development teams. Why is this?
Mynxee	Posted - 2010.07.27 21:47:00 - [32] Ok when I read that news item, my first thought was "Oh dear, THAT description won't go over well with players." Not to downplay the terrible lag situation, but I hardly think an ISD reporter using a creative euphemism for lag in an IC report should be taken as the harbinger of a new disregard by CCP for the issue. Still, for those in that fight (and others like it), it had to be a pretty discouraging situation that is all too common these days. I think everyone realizes by now that I am not shy about calling CCP out on their failures. However, for the lag issue it might be more productive to look for positive action we players can take that could actually do some good. Dare I raise the topic of fleet lag testing on Sisi here? Before you all start groaning, hang on a second. We all know such events are a key tool used by CCP to get clues about the lag monster. Problem is, many players don't feel those events are realistic or can't be bothered to participate. BUT...what if the tests WERE realistic? What if you could be motivated to participate? With the right conditions and the right numbers, someone on the lag team just might have one of those "OMG THAT'S IT!" epiphanies about the root cause of the problem. So...how about helping the CSM work with CCP on your behalf in this matter? Maybe post here or evemail a delegate with a summary of your issues, concerns, suggestions, and experiences related to fleet lag tests on SiSi and share your ideas about how they could be organized and conducted to produce more realistic conditions. In particular, let us know what stops you from participating in such tests and what would encourage you to participate. If you've posted on the topic before (I'm sure many have), include a link. *****ing, moaning, and rage have their place but so does constructive, sincere effort to be part of a solution. Life In Low Sec
Grath Telkin Amarr Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2010.07.27 22:00:00 - [33] Edited by: Grath Telkin on 27/07/2010 22:00:17 Originally by: Mynxee Ok when I read that news item, my first thought was "Oh dear, THAT description won't go over well with players." Not to downplay the terrible lag situation, but I hardly think an ISD reporter using a creative euphemism for lag in an IC report should be taken as the harbinger of a new disregard by CCP for the issue. Still, for those in that fight (and others like it), it had to be a pretty discouraging situation that is all too common these days. I think everyone realizes by now that I am not shy about calling CCP out on their failures. However, for the lag issue it might be more productive to look for positive action we players can take that could actually do some good. Dare I raise the topic of fleet lag testing on Sisi here? Before you all start groaning, hang on a second. We all know such events are a key tool used by CCP to get clues about the lag monster. Problem is, many players don't feel those events are realistic or can't be bothered to participate. BUT...what if the tests WERE realistic? What if you could be motivated to participate? With the right conditions and the right numbers, someone on the lag team just might have one of those "OMG THAT'S IT!" epiphanies about the root cause of the problem. So...how about helping the CSM work with CCP on your behalf in this matter? Maybe post here or evemail a delegate with a summary of your issues, concerns, suggestions, and experiences related to fleet lag tests on SiSi and share your ideas about how they could be organized and conducted to produce more realistic conditions. In particular, let us know what stops you from participating in such tests and what would encourage you to participate. If you've posted on the topic before (I'm sure many have), include a link. ***ing, moaning, and rage have their place but so does constructive, sincere effort to be part of a solution. I knew this would come up, I posted this in another thread, but it goes to your case too, so i'll reposte it here Quote: See, this is a major problem. Operations in EVE take SO MUCH **ING TIME (8 hours to set up and arm a deathstar) that NOBODY has the time to take out and go to the test server. Consequently, the big fights they should in fact be monitoring (most of which happen on reinforced nodes, that we were obligated to notify them of, 24 hours before hand, thus giving ample time to have the monitoring equipment in place, OH WAIT THERES ONLY 3 GUYS CAUSE THE REST OF CCP HAS TO MAKE SURE YOU CAN WALK IN STATIONS) only happen on the live server. It goes like this: We pay them to do a job, there are no reverse incentives for us to show up at testing, except the POSSIBILITY of a better game, 18 months from now, which, in actuality we've already paid them for, so its a circular feeding cycle. We have to take time out of the grind that is A) setting up towers that take ridiculously long times B) posting ops to shoot IHUBS, TCUs, Stations, SBU's, THREE TIMES EACH C) grinding through the MILLIONS (100 million per cycle on some objects) of hit points on said ops D) staring at a black screen for 4 hours, or waiting for your mods to unstick for 4 hours, or waiting for a grid to load for 4 hours. CCP could freeze sov warfare to encourage people to go to the testing, but the result would be a massive account drop as people got bored, because 0.0 is simply about empire building, and destroying, if you take that out, you lose the player interest. Tl: DR its not our job to show up to mass testing, we pay for CCP to do this, theres already too much we have to be concerned with on the live server, so that excuse about mass testing can go to hell, and if they were serious, the tests would be happening with more frequency..
Malcanis Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.07.27 22:27:00 - [34] Originally by: CCP Manifest It's clear that more "insider" knowledge is important to the fanbase and inclusion in the progress is as well. This is the most encouraging thing I have read here in a long time. Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
Sub Trader	Posted - 2010.07.27 22:39:00 - [35] watch the dominion trailer - looks great come to the real thing in eve amd spend 2 hours looking at a blank screen. calling it spacial distortion is just insulting to my custom tbh. why can't ccp be honest and say they dont have the server resources to supply large fights and then do something about it.
Srialia Misfit Toys	Posted - 2010.07.27 23:27:00 - [36] Originally by: Mynxee *****ing, moaning, and rage have their place but so does constructive, sincere effort to be part of a solution. CCP has sent the playerbase a pretty clear message that, though they may appreciate our feedback, they have no intention of actually doing anything with said feedback. The assembly hall has been mentioned. There are a lot of constructive, sincere ideas in there, especially in the infamous "excellence" thread, from people who want this game to improve and are genuinely concerned about its future if the current development philosophy continues. Everything the public has seen from CCP has been damage control at the very best ("We'll get to it eventually, hang in there baby."), to outright denial of the issues at the worst ("I don't remember any frustration from the CSM during the meeting, derp.") This is incredibly demoralizing to the player population. The lag issue is a beast all its own. CCP should have gone into emergency overload as soon as reports of whole fleets blackscreening and dying started surfacing after Dominion hit and stabilized (I use that word loosely). It's been 8 months and still no change. Zulu comes out and tells us how much of the company's resources are actually being applied to the existing game and this crippling issue in particular, and it's an insult. And then they complain they aren't getting enough help from the playerbase? If CCP is unwilling to commit the resources necessary to make a dent in the problem for 8 months, do they really expect their customers to use the time they paid for to beta test the game for them? CCP needs to give something back to the playerbase, in some form. They can re-commit the current game that is in desperate need of attention, adding to the resources dedicated to improving the game that exists now (with none of this "probably" trash, thanks). That's the best option. If they insist on sticking with their utterly broken development philosophy, they need to start coughing up if they want more help. Money, ISK, skill points, items, whatever (even game time, though that would not be my preferred compensation at this point, considering how hopeless I am that the game will ever improve). Oh, and they also need to offer enough of said compensation to not be completely insulting. There has been a lot of sincere effort from the player base recently. From what I can see, the CSM has been very aggressive about our issues, which is fantastic. In response, CCP has spat in our faces. We have dealt in good faith, CCP has not. You're going to see more rage and less cooperation until something changes, and it's up to CCP now. They don't get to blame it on us anymore.
Monkey Saturday Unknown Soldiers The Spire Collective	Posted - 2010.07.27 23:30:00 - [37] Edited by: Monkey Saturday on 27/07/2010 23:38:27 Originally by: Grath Telkin Really good post that sums my feelings up perfectly. Yup I'd be more than happy to log onto sisi (which i used to do very frequently about 18 months ago LOL!!!) if I thought for one second it'd make a whit of difference. Sorry CCP you gotta go at least 50-50 with me. Tit for tat. Quid pro quo. etc... p.s. I'll be certainly happy waiting until november to get my multiplayer FUN game fix, for that is when this little gem will be released. I love it, even with the DRM.
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2010.07.28 00:04:00 - [38] Originally by: Mynxee good stuff I can agree with that Originally by: Mynxee So...how about helping the CSM work with CCP on your behalf in this matter? You are aware that most people have taken a crap that does more than the CSM currently does??
Camios Minmatar Insurgent New Eden Tribe	Posted - 2010.07.28 00:13:00 - [39] Edited by: Camios on 28/07/2010 00:15:46 Edited by: Camios on 28/07/2010 00:14:00 Let me be a bit provocative. Originally by: CCP Manifest There are some really cool suggestions out there on how to change "simple game mechanics" to help address fleet battles--many of which came via forums, Fanfest and the CSM. Of course, none of them are really ever that simple to change or design in a sandbox game, as any change can have a Butterfly Effect. Could mean for some a calm, warm sunny California day. For others it could mean a typhoon halfway around the world. [...] I don't know of any IMMEDIATE plans to do any revamps on game design for fleets/blobs, but there is opportunity in the future. So, you claim that CCP have no plans about game design changes because they would resonate in a butterfly effect of undesirable consequences, and ruin the game for those that live in nullsec. Let me clarify a thing: I am one of those who left conquerable space because of the lag problem. Here are some question (provocative, but here in Italy it's very late in the night and this is my contribution to the topic): What are you waiting before testing some gameplay changes? For the entire nullsec population to move somewhere else? Do you really think that the situation could actually get worse than this? Does it mean that your game designers have no clue about any possible good changes? Have you got the tools, a theory or some simplified mathematical model to evaluate the impact of a change in the sov mechanic? Or it's just based on your game designer insincts? Because it seems that whatever method/tool/theory you are using it didn't work in Dominion. I have several proposal, here, at point 7, is one for example. Resuming it, I assume that the attacker wants less lag. If he could he would attack more systems at once to split the load of the war between different nodes. But it's not an effective strategy because of some advantages that the defender got with dominion. Read the proposal for more info. Quote: It is possible to change things so that the defender cannot repair his structures to full health at every fight he wins, introducing a reinforced mode even when structures are repaired over a certain hull or armor level.
Diomedes Calypso	Posted - 2010.07.28 00:43:00 - [40] Desire : Fail Gracefully True: Human nature/military reality will tend to up the number of people to the point of computer dysfunction Prepare: Knowing that malfunctions will happen, it is vital to have a planned and fairly predictable response built into game mechanics that still preserve strategy with outcomes far less one sided. Play/Strategy enhancing: The failure response could be built into game strategy, for knowing what we do about eve players there will be some groups who will aim to deliberately trigger it. Vigorous programming effort should still try to prevent that and certain actions can be labeled in advance as exploits (bubble limit?) but determining motive is impractical /impossible. Excuse: Actually the role play excuse given might not be a bad start. Too many players in one place could create a rift in the space-time continuom . Brain Storm (a "I.E" Possibility to be improved by others) A system in flux could immediately freeze all action in a system then catapult all players in a system to random spots in a system using the mission location spawn mechanism (perhaps grouped by fleet squad clumps?" . The semi-"instance" nature of the mission spawns and temporarily locked exterior gates could allow for a safe log-off option. The aftermath: The originating grids could become so unstable that it would be impossible to warp to those grids for a viewable timer. Yes that could temporarily bar access to a station, pos, or gate à.very disruptive but time space rends are no laughing matter. Timers could get some random extensions to produce uncertainty. Well I know the devil would be in the details but the point would to be to have the lag monster create a sort of chaos that would disrupt plans and require difficult regrouping àbut Never ever allow one ship to shoot at another that canÆt respond. Even if there is no perfect solution, any solution is better than players whoÆs ships canÆt respond properly being shot by those that can shoot. Fail Gracefully û limits will be taxed and when they do, the outcome needs to feel like a fairly logical contextual event with less extreme resulting losses.

Saelie	Posted - 2010.07.28 00:59:00 - [41] Originally by: Grath Telkin Read this carefully and show it to somebody in charge: There is a thread nearing 100 pages of people posting about NOT wanting WiS OR Dust until you fix the game, which is entirely being ignored by the Development teams. Why is this? Because when Incarna was not a priority there would often be a weekly thread complaining about why they weren't working on walking in stations and the players wanted to walk in stations and why wasn't CCP focusing on this and all the usual emo-rage you see flying around. Ambulation became an inside joke for something that was never going to happen, just like Duke Nukem Forever is in the gaming community at large. Now that CCP has finally decided to go ahead and get it out of the way because it's what the players wanted, all they're getting is crap because something else has to be put off to do it. They can't win.
Apollo Gabriel Domini Lex Talionis Etherium Cartel	Posted - 2010.07.28 01:00:00 - [42] Edited by: Apollo Gabriel on 28/07/2010 01:01:49 The player base is quite frustrated ... A year ago this News Story would have gotten a few "ha ha spatial distortions..." Why? It was funny, and I laughed ... a little, because it isn't isolated, it is daily and persistent. CCP ... the only reason we are angry is that we LOVE THIS GAME and want to play it... I WANT INCARNA, and DUST is an AWESOME concept ... Microsoft Admitted Vista sucked, roll back Dominion. Best, Apollo CCP Commit to Excellence by September 1st 2010 Don't let the trolls, keep you from your goals.
TheStarman Blue Republic	Posted - 2010.07.28 01:02:00 - [43] Originally by: Mynxee With the right conditions and the right numbers, someone on the lag team just might have one of those "OMG THAT'S IT!" epiphanies about the root cause of the problem. Sorry, I'd love to, but my schedule's full for the next 18 months. Maybe if we eliminated useless features like the CSM we could dedicate those resources to solving the lag problem. Or seeing my asian-ness in 3d.
Pr1ncess Alia	Posted - 2010.07.28 01:04:00 - [44] Originally by: Grath Telkin There is a thread nearing 100 pages of people posting about NOT wanting WiS OR Dust until you fix the game, which is entirely being ignored by the Development teams. Why is this? This is where you misunderstand the situation. Dev's have managers. Those managers have managers. Devs want the game to work as much as you or I do. But like any business if your a tech grunt and aren't give the tools or proper resources, if your scheduled and ordered to focus on other things... that as they say is that. Yelling at the devs is yelling at the only people that actually sympathize with us. They want success as much as we do. The people you should be yelling at are useless to yell at. Even IF they were to open the forums and read, they are going to hear what they want to hear and go on with how THEIR vision of CCP should be (coughnathancough). I've never seen a tech company crash and burn due to sole incompetence of their tech workers. It's always ALWAYS the upper management chasing the immediate returns brass ring and sacrificing long term stability all to gamble on impressing their investors. Period. Some companies build a solid business, a market niche and are content with that and work to ever cement their niche. See: CCP circa +/-2004 Others go full ****** and chase waterfalls flushing years of work down the drain. See: CCP now? --- Players are losing faith and loyalty in CCP due previous expansions not living up to player expectations. The CSM and CCP agreed that expectation management can be improved
w0rmy Destructive Influence	Posted - 2010.07.28 01:05:00 - [45] Wonder if I can use a 'spatial distortion of my wallet' as an excuse when I come to pay my eve sub this month Originally by: CCP Oveur I'm very sorry w0rmy, I beg your forgiveness.
Grath Telkin Amarr Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2010.07.28 01:09:00 - [46] Originally by: Saelie Originally by: Grath Telkin Read this carefully and show it to somebody in charge: There is a thread nearing 100 pages of people posting about NOT wanting WiS OR Dust until you fix the game, which is entirely being ignored by the Development teams. Why is this? Because when Incarna was not a priority there would often be a weekly thread complaining about why they weren't working on walking in stations and the players wanted to walk in stations and why wasn't CCP focusing on this and all the usual emo-rage you see flying around. Ambulation became an inside joke for something that was never going to happen, just like Duke Nukem Forever is in the gaming community at large. Now that CCP has finally decided to go ahead and get it out of the way because it's what the players wanted, all they're getting is crap because something else has to be put off to do it. They can't win. Try not releasing broken unfinished crap. Try not ignoring the glaring problems your game has for 8 months. Try not blowing smoke up your technically proficient gaming communities ass. TRY. Incarna is nothing but a weak ass attempt to get more people to come play eve. Those same people, will simply leave again when they find out what condition the other part of the game is in (**). They can't win because they aren't really trying to win, they are simply trying to pile more ** on the fire.
Dr BattleSmith PAX Interstellar Services	Posted - 2010.07.28 01:30:00 - [47] Originally by: CCP Manifest as any change can have a Butterfly Effect. Maybe planning will help with that. I've lost faith in Agile Scrum. Seems the piecemeal fashion in which it works just produces spaghetti code. btw you should checkout E-ON a few issues back, it has a year or 2 of battle reports where every last one is determined by lag.
Saelie	Posted - 2010.07.28 01:38:00 - [48] Would like to point out that I don't know if CCP could even do anything about this if they wanted to. This is because of human nature. Right now, a 500v500 fight will lag out the servers and result in epic fail. Okay, so they fix that. The problem is that now people will just keep coming, so soon it's 750v750 and it lags out again. They use even more resources to make that work okay, then it goes up to 1000v1000. Each time it takes an ever-increasing amount of resources to keep the fight going, yet the bigger each fight can be the more people that fight will attract. It's a vicious circle that ensures there will almost always be blob lag, as the blobs will grow until it starts lagging or until both sides run out of active members.
Denidil Gallente Rape Pillage and Burn	Posted - 2010.07.28 02:01:00 - [49] christ some of you are children.. someone clearly explained in this thread how nearly a quarter of the team is dedicated to trying to fix the lag issue but some of the others are still throwing MASSIVE temper tantrums and accusing CCP of doing nothing? you know what, if you're going to treat CCP like that while they're trying to fix an EXTREMELY complicated software engineering problem (That you pipesqueek little basement dweller brain couldn't understand the first thing related to it) why the hell should they listen to you? in short: CCP are spending more than normal-business-hours time on a problem that is extremely difficult to solve. stop acting like an ******* toward them. they don't have to give up time with their families to try to fix this, but they are.
Captain Greeneyes	Posted - 2010.07.28 02:24:00 - [50] Originally by: Denidil christ some of you are children.. someone clearly explained in this thread how nearly a quarter of the team is dedicated to trying to fix the lag issue but some of the others are still throwing MASSIVE temper tantrums and accusing CCP of doing nothing? you know what, if you're going to treat CCP like that while they're trying to fix an EXTREMELY complicated software engineering problem (That you pipesqueek little basement dweller brain couldn't understand the first thing related to it) why the hell should they listen to you? in short: CCP are spending more than normal-business-hours time on a problem that is extremely difficult to solve. stop acting like an ******* toward them. they don't have to give up time with their families to try to fix this, but they are. This. STFU, everyone. Lag isn't a "Oh, let me take the five minutes or so out of my time to try to finally fix this". it's a problem that has lots of variables, and will -NEVER- be completely solved, due to the very nature of the game.

Grath Telkin Amarr Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2010.07.28 02:36:00 - [51] Originally by: Saelie They use even more resources to make that work okay, then it goes up to 1000v1000. Hi, you don't get it, we HAD 1000 vs 1000, and the game held up better than it currently does, We HAD the ability to wage the largest wars the game had EVER seen, relatively without problem. Dominions release in December took that from us. Originally by: Captain Greeneyes Originally by: Denidil christ some of you are children.. someone clearly explained in this thread how nearly a quarter of the team is dedicated to trying to fix the lag issue but some of the others are still throwing MASSIVE temper tantrums and accusing CCP of doing nothing? you know what, if you're going to treat CCP like that while they're trying to fix an EXTREMELY complicated software engineering problem (That you pipesqueek little basement dweller brain couldn't understand the first thing related to it) why the hell should they listen to you? in short: CCP are spending more than normal-business-hours time on a problem that is extremely difficult to solve. stop acting like an ***** toward them. they don't have to give up time with their families to try to fix this, but they are. This. STFU, everyone. Lag isn't a "Oh, let me take the five minutes or so out of my time to try to finally fix this". it's a problem that has lots of variables, and will -NEVER- be completely solved, due to the very nature of the game. And to you two, first, no, its unacceptable that the game is this broken, and only 1/4 of the staff is working on it (while the rest work on the dress captain greeneyes will be wearing in station). Who cares what you wear in station, the game is about ing space ships. Also, It took 1 day to deploy the patch that ruined the game, they could spend a day un**ing patching that to give us our game back in a playable fashion. Its the fleet finder and loot logging crap, they've been told that, they've admitted its causing problems, WELL OK THEN LETS PULL THAT TILL WE GET IT RIGHT. Sure, 18 months after we can shoot each other after buying a console that we really didn't want, and after captain greeneyes has a nice pretty dress. Maybe, instead of coding an entirely new game, they could have simply started working on re writing EVE's code so its not a nightmare of outdated nuts and bolts that are all Frankenstiened together. The game is broken in Empire, the game is broken in lowsec, the Faction Warfare game has been broken SINCE RELEASE, missions are broken, Fleet fights are broken, Sov is broken, 0.0 is overall been homogenized to the point of near comatose death, with ALL OF THAT, is there really a reason to walk in stations?
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2010.07.28 02:39:00 - [52] Originally by: Grath Telkin Originally by: Mynxee Dare I raise the topic of fleet lag testing on Sisi here? Operations in EVE take SO MUCH ****ING TIME (8 hours to set up and arm a deathstar) that NOBODY has the time to take out and go to the test server. Consequently, the big fights they should in fact be monitoring (most of which happen on reinforced nodes, that we were obligated to notify them of, 24 hours before hand, thus giving ample time to have the monitoring equipment in place, OH WAIT THERES ONLY 3 GUYS CAUSE THE REST OF CCP HAS TO MAKE SURE YOU CAN WALK IN STATIONS) only happen on the live server. So how about suggesting to CCP that they take a verbatim copy of constellations where requests for reinforced nodes are submitted, giving the alliances involved the opportunity to scap over that space several times (best of three? Best of five?) with the "testing tournament" outcome deciding the issue of an IHUB or other sov structure being disabled in the production server? Thus it is your interests to turn up because the test server becomes the metagame. We all know bigger blob wins, so the side that gets the largest fleets on the test server wins. -- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel]
Diomedes Calypso	Posted - 2010.07.28 02:44:00 - [53] Originally by: Captain Greeneyes This. STFU, everyone. Lag isn't a "Oh, let me take the five minutes or so out of my time to try to finally fix this". it's a problem that has lots of variables, and will -NEVER- be completely solved, due to the very nature of the game. Which is exaclty why lag needs to be planned for as a part of game design where the competitive mechanics assume lag will happen and structure game sequence and reactions in both short time fractals (tens of seconds) moderate (tens of minutes? hours?) and long term (weeks and months long campaigns) come out as close to lag neutral as possible. Curing lag may be impossible, yet how it is possible to move a ship, when it does and doesn't appear in system (or in "play") can be designed to react to lag. Competitve sports very frequently have this notion of "out of bounds"... it was assumed that sometimes the ball will get knocked off the playing field but instead of playing through the fans play is stopped and there is something like a throw in. Play doesn't need to stop entirely, but certainly fighting can stop as soon the server notices that its having trouble keeping up (or whatever technical definitions there might be for various types of lag) and the game could have a predictable adjustment in positions slightly analagous to a throw in. Have game dynamics that make lag and its impacts a logical part of the game that unfolds in a way that the fights are everybit as meaningful just as a ball going out of bounds is part of a football game.
Monkey Saturday Unknown Soldiers The Spire Collective	Posted - 2010.07.28 02:46:00 - [54] Originally by: Captain Greeneyes Originally by: Denidil christ some of you are children.. someone clearly explained in this thread how nearly a quarter of the team is dedicated to trying to fix the lag issue but some of the others are still throwing MASSIVE temper tantrums and accusing CCP of doing nothing? you know what, if you're going to treat CCP like that while they're trying to fix an EXTREMELY complicated software engineering problem (That you pipesqueek little basement dweller brain couldn't understand the first thing related to it) why the hell should they listen to you? in short: CCP are spending more than normal-business-hours time on a problem that is extremely difficult to solve. stop acting like an ******* toward them. they don't have to give up time with their families to try to fix this, but they are. This. STFU, everyone. Lag isn't a "Oh, let me take the five minutes or so out of my time to try to finally fix this". it's a problem that has lots of variables, and will -NEVER- be completely solved, due to the very nature of the game. Shut up. If you had 1/32'nd of a normal chimp's brain capacity you'd already know that no one thinks lag can be cured FOR EVERS and that apocrypha had VERY PLAYABLE fleet fights with MINIMAL lag. There is no excuse for the current lag epidemic. Go troll somewhere else.

ISD Serathu Ashk ISD Interstellar Correspondents	Posted - 2010.07.28 03:00:00 - [55] Hi, I'm Serathu Ashk, the Editor-in-Chief of the Interstellar Correspondents. Before I get into the specifics of this article, I just want to take a moment to explain who we are, what our remit is and how we carry that out. IC is made up of (currently ~20) volunteers and together we form one of the five divisions of the volunteer program. IC's remit is to cover what we call "Player News" and we treat this as covering all manner of sins - if the players do it in-game, it's our aim to cover it. This extends beyond the realms of just news and is why we put a significant amount of time and effort into our Alliance Tournament Website among other things. When we cover news events, we are required to remain in-character for immersion reasons and this means that our interviews and our articles cannot use out of game terms such as "lag", "player" and "crippling hamster-related node death". We are not developers, we are not paid and our remit isn't set by the marketing department. We are players. We hate lag. So now on to this particular example. We became aware very quickly of this fight as it was happening and a reporter got to work covering it with a view to getting an article out as quickly as possible. We all know what happened next and we donÆt like it either, but it is still news and it is still worth reporting. The way in which we reported it was to follow the rule above about staying in-character and refer to the lag as a ôspatial distortionö, something we have been doing for a long time now. We were not in any way trying to spin this as something else, cover up the lag issue or advertise ôcool stuff happening in spaceö. ItÆs news, plain and simple. I hope that answers some of the points raised here but if not, IÆm always happy to answer questions either here or by email, via the address in my signature. \| News Lead? Tell Us \| Become An IC \| E-mail IC \| Visit Our Website \|

Herzog Wolfhammer Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2010.07.28 03:07:00 - [56] Edited by: Herzog Wolfhammer on 28/07/2010 03:07:29 Alright CPP. You want to fix lag? Fine. What can I, a single knucklehead, do to help CCP with this lag issue?
Eliax Gallente CONCORD Operations	Posted - 2010.07.28 04:16:00 - [57] CCP has many employees with high degree's & experience. I just have a hard time believing they can't figure out where the lag is coming from. Everyone knows before dominion it wasn't this bad, so something screwed it up in that patch, for all i know it's the coding in the new fleet system. Anyway, it seems CCP is struggling to get participation on the mass testing events on the test server. Why don't design a new shuttle, add SP or any kind of reward on the real server in exchange for participating on the test server. Reward people for their effort, and you will be breaking participation records.
Zalafas Minmatar	Posted - 2010.07.28 04:20:00 - [58] Edited by: Zalafas on 28/07/2010 04:21:44 Does anyone truly know what caused this fleet lag monster to get spectacularly worse, or is everyone just speculating? That is, beyond just saying 'Dominion caused it'... I'd suspect that if it were as simple as 'just undo the change that caused this', they'd have done that already. Likely this stems from multiple sources, and/or it comes from change(s) that can't be easily undone without messing up all sorts of other additions and features.
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2010.07.28 05:46:00 - [59] You want to reign in supercap fleet spam? Nerf jump range so they are tactical assets only that need lots of planning to deploy effectively. As it stands minutes after someone finds a suitable target a supercap blob can literally cross the entire eve universe to go wtfpwn it if they have an adaquate cyno chain setup with energy transfer ships such as carriers along for the ride. Something that every corp easily has access to if they are even remotely serious about hotdropping their supercaps. Originally by: Balsak Eve-Online, the game that is so awesome people are willing to give CCP money so that they may have the privilege to bash it.
Bagdon GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2010.07.28 06:11:00 - [60] Originally by: Mynxee Dare I raise the topic of fleet lag testing on Sisi here? The experience from Dominion supercap testing on Sisi has taught the 0.0 population that whatever is done on Sisi is a total waste of time and will be ignored.

Doctor Ungabungas Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2010.07.28 06:21:00 - [61] Edited by: Doctor Ungabungas on 28/07/2010 06:22:17 Originally by: Zalafas Edited by: Zalafas on 28/07/2010 04:21:44 I'd suspect that if it were as simple as 'just undo the change that caused this', they'd have done that already. I don't even think they've got that far. It's not a case of 'undoing the change' not working. It's a case of 'we don't know what we did'. If CCP was serious, they'd debug from an actual live fight or they'd incentivise Sisi testing with a free day of SP or something along those lines. I am really starting to think that CCP are using 'we don't get enough testers' as a smoke screen for the fact they don't know what the hell they're doing.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2010.07.28 06:54:00 - [62] The problem with debugging live fights is that it will require to deploy the debugging and data gathering programs on tranquility during live fights, making them worse. As a result of that half of the people on the losing side will start screaming about CCP intervention on the game, accusing them of helping a side or the other in the attempt to keep the battle alive and to find what is the problem. We already had a very angry thread about that some month ago. So if they don't try to find what is the problem during battles on Tranquility you accuse them of not doing enough, but if they try you (or some of your corp/alliance mates) accuse them of favoritism and making the battle worse. CCP lose in both versions.
Doctor Ungabungas Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2010.07.28 06:57:00 - [63] Originally by: Venkul Mul The problem with debugging live fights is that it will require to deploy the debugging and data gathering programs on tranquility during live fights, making them worse. They can't actually get any worse.
Ban Doga	Posted - 2010.07.28 07:06:00 - [64] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: CCP Manifest It's clear that more "insider" knowledge is important to the fanbase and inclusion in the progress is as well. This is the most encouraging thing I have read here in a long time. Is that because you think it implies there is some progress that hasn't been covered in public news items/devblogs? If there was something to share they would have done so. Back to square one: To know and not to do is really not to know.
picswapper	Posted - 2010.07.28 07:20:00 - [65] Here is the part that I personally do not get: -You have hundreds of players reporting that lag has increased by a large amount over the last two expansions -There does not appear to be a directed effort towards identifying "what did we introduce in those expansions that has made fleet fights of 100 vs 100 impossible, whereas previously they worked rather well" I'm not going to pretend I know a lot about computing at this scale, but cripes people, basic troubleshooting here... "the soup was good before we changed the recipe, what ingredients did we add that made the soup taste bad?"
Average Jack	Posted - 2010.07.28 07:33:00 - [66] Originally by: CCP Manifest I can assure you that CCP isn't suddenly thinking we're going to pull the wool over your eyes and say lag is a feature. Sfortunatamente(Italian for major bummer), since we like to trumpet player news like the IC stuff, we Facebook'd it as well, which we shouldn't have done, giving the appearance that we somehow endorse this RP "justification" as our new stand on lag. Lag is an evil terrible monster that we want to strangle and bury. We hates it. HATES IT. If that were true and you gave two ****s about the lag situation then why didn't you delay the role-out of the patch that re-introduced the terrible lag we have today? Or when you noticed that you (once again) failed dismally, why didn't you at least have the balls to admit it and role-back to pre-dominion code until you got the issues sorted? The reason is because you don't care about lag, you care about PR-crap, advertisement and ultimately bleed us loyal customers for as much money as you can. And your marking tards think it would be bad for CCPs image to be honest and admit to their mistakes. So instead you close your eyes, stick your fingers in your ears and humm loudly for 9 months, pretending we're all just morons and our PCs/ISPs just all suck at the same time. But actually you would have made a much better impression if you were honest and would admit openely that you failed with the patch and need another few months to get it fixed. Yes, there would have been some whining but at least CCP could have proven that they are interested in "excellence". This way it's just one big farce and I feel like you are lying to me, badly. For a company like CCP (with a history of epic failures and constantly letting your paying customers beta test your technically not feasible visions) to even mention the word "excellence" really already shows that you (or at least your marketing tards) are a full of crap. If you want to correct the situation then you should start by making daily devblogs and committing to freeze your product until it works as advertised. Or you could promote some marketing noob that doesn't know anything except how to sweet-talk to Senior Producer and pretend that EVE is in the best technical state it was for the past years (and release minutes to that effect).
Caldrion Dosto Svea Rike Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2010.07.28 07:59:00 - [67] Originally by: Grath Telkin Originally by: Saelie They use even more resources to make that work okay, then it goes up to 1000v1000. Hi, you don't get it, we HAD 1000 vs 1000, and the game held up better than it currently does, We HAD the ability to wage the largest wars the game had EVER seen, relatively without problem. Dominions release in December took that from us. Originally by: Captain Greeneyes Originally by: Denidil christ some of you are children.. someone clearly explained in this thread how nearly a quarter of the team is dedicated to trying to fix the lag issue but some of the others are still throwing MASSIVE temper tantrums and accusing CCP of doing nothing? you know what, if you're going to treat CCP like that while they're trying to fix an EXTREMELY complicated software engineering problem (That you pipesqueek little basement dweller brain couldn't understand the first thing related to it) why the hell should they listen to you? in short: CCP are spending more than normal-business-hours time on a problem that is extremely difficult to solve. stop acting like an ***** toward them. they don't have to give up time with their families to try to fix this, but they are. This. STFU, everyone. Lag isn't a "Oh, let me take the five minutes or so out of my time to try to finally fix this". it's a problem that has lots of variables, and will -NEVER- be completely solved, due to the very nature of the game. And to you two, first, no, its unacceptable that the game is this broken, and only 1/4 of the staff is working on it (while the rest work on the dress captain greeneyes will be wearing in station). Who cares what you wear in station, the game is about ing space ships. Also, It took 1 day to deploy the patch that ruined the game, they could spend a day uning patching that to give us our game back in a playable fashion. Its the fleet finder and loot logging crap, they've been told that, they've admitted its causing problems, WELL OK THEN LETS PULL THAT TILL WE GET IT RIGHT. Sure, 18 months after we can shoot each other after buying a console that we really didn't want, and after captain greeneyes has a nice pretty dress. Maybe, instead of coding an entirely new game, they could have simply started working on re writing EVE's code so its not a nightmare of outdated nuts and bolts that are all Frankenstiened together. The game is broken in Empire, the game is broken in lowsec, the Faction Warfare game has been broken SINCE RELEASE, missions are broken, Fleet fights are broken, Sov is broken, 0.0 is overall been homogenized to the point of near comatose death, with ALL OF THAT, is there really a reason to walk in stations? this is the truth, before Dominion Epic fleet fights was had and did work, after it went to **, and we the players reported it quite quickly, i think the call for rollback was heard in a week or so after deployment. It should have been done.
Louis deGuerre Gallente Amicus Morte Shock an Awe	Posted - 2010.07.28 10:12:00 - [68] This thread has suspiciously high quality for general discussion It seems I wasn't the only one suprised at the newsletter. Appreciate the posting by CCP and ISD in this thread. Join fleet testing on SISI (if you can) if you want the lag to get less horrible. Sol: A microwarp drive? In a battleship? Are you insane? They arenÆt built for this! Clear Skies - The Movie
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2010.07.28 10:31:00 - [69] Originally by: Doctor Ungabungas Originally by: Venkul Mul The problem with debugging live fights is that it will require to deploy the debugging and data gathering programs on tranquility during live fights, making them worse. They can't actually get any worse. Perception: To paraphrase what was in that old thread about a battle where the Dev tried to gather data and keep the server up: "Without the Dev intervention the server would have collapsed and we wouldn't have lost so many ships" "The Dev tools added lag, we would have won in a normal lag situation." and so on. People will whine about the effect of the data gathering tools and the attempted fixes so they should be as "soft" and invisible as possible and CCP will not speak about them when they are used during a battle.
Doctor Ungabungas Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2010.07.28 10:36:00 - [70] Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Doctor Ungabungas Originally by: Venkul Mul The problem with debugging live fights is that it will require to deploy the debugging and data gathering programs on tranquility during live fights, making them worse. They can't actually get any worse. Perception: To paraphrase what was in that old thread about a battle where the Dev tried to gather data and keep the server up: "Without the Dev intervention the server would have collapsed and we wouldn't have lost so many ships" "The Dev tools added lag, we would have won in a normal lag situation." and so on. People will whine about the effect of the data gathering tools and the attempted fixes so they should be as "soft" and invisible as possible and CCP will not speak about them when they are used during a battle. The fact remains that not fixing the lag is doing far more harm to CCP's reputation than player whining about a few battles.

Giovanni DalleBandeNere Two Brothers Mining Corp. R.A.G.E	Posted - 2010.07.28 10:41:00 - [71] Edited by: Giovanni DalleBandeNere on 28/07/2010 10:43:48 Sfortunatamente non c'F trippa per gatti (that's just for italians and the dev if he's italian) Eve is a great game(thanks to CCP of course), is just that CCP decided to steer to a "new" direction 1. partecipation to stress tests is not a solution, for sure you can't blame people for not takin part to them, someone has already a RL job and uses EVE to have fun 2. to the ones arguin only solution is to cancel subscriptions..well might be a solution, but that way you loose 3. whining is not a solution? true but you can't pretend an whole comunity remains silent if soemthing's wrong honestly i see no solution , and that's sad, for sure after threads like this: CAOD thread or this DEV BLOG opening a Vote EVE online thread sounds like CCP really doesn't care about it's customers, actually sounds like they'r "makin fun" of us. cya p.s. to spelling ****s..i'm not english so might have filled the above with tons of mistakes
Dierdra Vaal	Posted - 2010.07.28 10:46:00 - [72] Originally by: Bagdon Originally by: Mynxee Dare I raise the topic of fleet lag testing on Sisi here? The experience from Dominion supercap testing on Sisi has taught the 0.0 population that whatever is done on Sisi is a total waste of time and will be ignored. Because game design testing is the same as technical server testing. Yes. Oh wait no, I meant to say "Dumbest post in the thread". Yeah that sounds about right. * * * Director of Education :: EVE University * * * CSM1 delegate, CSM3 chairman and CSM5 vice-chairman
Doctor Ungabungas Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2010.07.28 11:14:00 - [73] Edited by: Doctor Ungabungas on 28/07/2010 11:14:35 Originally by: Giovanni DalleBandeNere 1. partecipation to stress tests is not a solution, for sure you can't blame people for not takin part to them, someone has already a RL job and uses EVE to have fun It's worth noting that CCP gets 500+ people to stress tests, but the unplayable lag issue can be replicated with 200 people in an unreinforced lowsec node. What's the holdup fellas?
Falung	Posted - 2010.07.28 11:41:00 - [74] Originally by: CCP Manifest Edited by: CCP Manifest on 27/07/2010 19:40:17 Originally by: Seith Silverstein Because the ISC != CCP. ISC is trying to report on a huge fight that didn't take place because of lag. Since they're an RP organization, they can't say "lag". As such, they mumbo-jumbo'd something about spatial distortion. Why CCP posted it on their front page is a good question though. Remember, by and large the low-level devs and coders (including people who upload things to the website) want the game to be awesome, and want the players to be happy. It's the idiotic suits upstairs that want you to walk around in stations while 50vs50 fights remain unresolved. Perhaps it's some kind of inter-company propaganda/social commentary? Perhaps everything the ISC prints ends up on the CCP page regardless? Perhaps they're using the same RNG that gives us 100,000 ABs/MWDs for mission loot? The world may never know. How is this any different then the EVE Trailers showing formation flying etc? Seith Silverstein hit it on the head with his first couple sentences. Using RP terms to try not to break immersion. Even knowing this, I still /facepalmed_epic at this when I read it earlier. I can assure you that CCP isn't suddenly thinking we're going to pull the wool over your eyes and say lag is a feature. Sfortunatamente(Italian for major bummer), since we like to trumpet player news like the IC stuff, we Facebook'd it as well, which we shouldn't have done, giving the appearance that we somehow endorse this RP "justification" as our new stand on lag. Lag is an evil terrible monster that we want to strangle and bury. We hates it. HATES IT. To further clarify, RP/IC news gets autopopulated to the front page and in many places around the site. So, because we like "player driven" news to appear there alongside the content RP news, that's how it got there.
Scharrie	Posted - 2010.07.28 12:29:00 - [75] Originally by: Monkey Saturday Shut up. If you had 1/32'nd of a normal chimp's brain capacity you'd already know that no one thinks lag can be cured FOR EVERS and that apocrypha had VERY PLAYABLE fleet fights with MINIMAL lag. There is no excuse for the current lag epidemic. Go troll somewhere else. wow.. you're an idiot. i actually work on massively parallel high performance systems (less than 3sec allowed response time on over 100,000 transactions per second) and actually know how difficult it is to track down subtle - but devastating - performance issues. oh PS: to the person claiming we could have 1k vs 1k fleet battles before Dom: BULL**** the people were bein all "that's insanely great" over fights with less than 800 total pilots in one system it wasn't until after Dom came out that we saw 1k+ in a single engagement, largest engagement I was in was 1600 in one system and we crashed the node. stop being dishonest about Eve's past.
Doctor Ungabungas Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2010.07.28 12:33:00 - [76] Originally by: Scharrie oh PS: to the person claiming we could have 1k vs 1k fleet battles before Dom: BULL**** the people were bein all "that's insanely great" over fights with less than 800 total pilots in one system it wasn't until after Dom came out that we saw 1k+ in a single engagement, largest engagement I was in was 1600 in one system and we crashed the node. stop being dishonest about Eve's past. The battles over 49- (ie: predominion) often had 1200-1400 people in one system with 'playable' combat. There has never been a 1000 member playable battle under dominion code - There have been a few attempts, but they have all resulted in black screens and entire fleets of supercaps being lost (only to respawn later in system with modules missing).
Scharrie	Posted - 2010.07.28 12:41:00 - [77] Originally by: Eliax I just have a hard time believing they can't figure out where the lag is coming from. that's because - no offense intended - you don't understand how software works. most MMO players don't. that's why good software engineers make lots of money. but MMOs are some of the most difficult software to develop due to the level of parallelism and performance required - the only comparable systems are google's data warehouses and online transaction processing [OLTP]. Google's data warehouses are simpler though - they have less interdependance they follow an essentially tree-based model. When a request comes in it is broken down into parts by the coordinating server and then distributed between the various data storage/indexing/retrieval nodes - it's index based on some natural key like first letter of primary keyword and groupings of sequential keys are stored on the same node. results come back and are assembled by the coordinating server and returned to the requestor OLTP follows a hub-and-spoke (star network) based model (with some "Shortcuts" between various sections bypassing certain hubs) A transaction request across an OLTP network flows along the shortest path from Acquirer (entity making the charge) to Issuer (entity that approves/declines the charge - though any stop along the way could choose to intercept and deny). The approval message follows the same path back. with an MMO - we'll use Eve here since we're talking about eve you have much more. With Eve you have the gateway nodes - which redirect your connection to the appropriate node that is hosting your system - each node has to be interconnected to coordinate hand-offs. most likely each system "node" may be anywhere from 1 to 8 processors in 1 to 4 physical machines would be my educated guess. Coordinating multiprocessing between different physical systems cooperatively (and in parallel) processing a data set increases the difficulty finding performance bugs several orders of magnitude. You have 20k-30k users connecting to the system all at the same time distributed across all the nodes, all the nodes have to coordinate with the central database (which must be kept in sync for all entities in the world), you then have 1k-2k of them hammering a single node (1-8 CPUs) with thousands of actions which must be verified, executed and their results dispatched to all of the clients that are effected by the update, etc. and here's the real kicker: multithreaded performance issues often disapear when you build debug builds. because the execution timing is different.
TheBlueMonkey Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2010.07.28 12:44:00 - [78] Originally by: GoingOffRoading Its a little odd that people always complain about lag in 500+ vs 500+ fights. How many multiplayer games support 1000+ players fighting eachother at once in one spot together... Even FW gets laggy but I don't beat my chest over it. This? Again? Really? ffs, ok, i'll speak slowly, The reason people are ****ed about 100 vs 100 lagging is becuase in previous itteration of eve we had way way larger fleet fights going with far less crippling lag. so eve is the game we want back, not this laggy abomination. -- Nothing is worthless, you may have gotten it for free but it still has an inherent value
Denidil Gallente Rape Pillage and Burn	Posted - 2010.07.28 12:47:00 - [79] Scharrie = me btw.. didn't mean to post on my second account.
Apollo Gabriel Domini Lex Talionis Etherium Cartel	Posted - 2010.07.28 12:51:00 - [80] In no other game can you have 1000+ player battles... so many of us ignore/deal with Eve's terribad warts... But Eve sells itself as THAT ONE GAME where you can do this type of thing... and we can't CCP, you've built a reputation as a company that cares more for its fans than its profits... you're losing that rep Best, Apollo CCP Commit to Excellence by September 1st 2010 Don't let the trolls, keep you from your goals.

GateScout	Posted - 2010.07.28 13:30:00 - [81] "...simple game design change..." Is there any wonder why CCP ignores (or seems to ignore) these forums? They certainly have more patience that I do for the painfully low signal to noise ratio here.

CCP Manifest C C P	Posted - 2010.07.28 13:56:00 - [82] Originally by: Camios Originally by: CCP Manifest There are some really cool suggestions out there on how to change "simple game mechanics" to help address fleet battles--many of which came via forums, Fanfest and the CSM. Of course, none of them are really ever that simple to change or design in a sandbox game, as any change can have a Butterfly Effect. Could mean for some a calm, warm sunny California day. For others it could mean a typhoon halfway around the world. [...] I don't know of any IMMEDIATE plans to do any revamps on game design for fleets/blobs, but there is opportunity in the future. So, you claim that CCP have no plans about game design changes because they would resonate in a butterfly effect of undesirable consequences, and ruin the game for those that live in nullsec. Woah there pardnuh! You were a bit too eager to read into what I typed there, although I understand that impetus since any changes probably aren't going to come at the timetable you want them to. I said game design for sandboxes are complicated because of the possible butterfly effect of undesirable consequences, not that we don't make plans to change because we're afraid of tipping scales in the wrong direction. We've added sov mechanics and changed them in the past, and there's no ban on doing so in the future. I just don't know of immediate plans to do so. To attempt to answer your questions in honesty from what I understand as being on the fringes of the dev team. What are you waiting before testing some gameplay changes? For the entire nullsec population to move somewhere else? As with every change of design, it takes slotted development time. As is read from numerous other threads of late, the near future isn't exactly full of "free development time". Development time isn't as easy as coming up with new designs, it requires a whole structure of programming and QA to followup afterwards. So while the ideas expressed in this thread for changing the mechanics may be sound, they do require serious vetting versus the code itself for technical feasibility, the actual coding and then QA and testing on Sisi. When you parse it out, something as major as sov changes SHOULD take a lot of development time to "tweak". Do you really think that the situation could actually get worse than this? Does it mean that your game designers have no clue about any possible good changes? To further what I said above, our game designers probably have some ideas on how they'd like to shift things (I won't speak for them though), but the development time and evaluation period for those changes takes just that... time. Have you got the tools, a theory or some simplified mathematical model to evaluate the impact of a change in the sov mechanic? Or it's just based on your game designer insincts? Because it seems that whatever method/tool/theory you are using it didn't work in Dominion. Hahahahhaa I barely would say I have game designer instincts, unless you include home-brewed pen and paper gamemastering or emailing Noah and Torfi at 4am once I have a "brilliant idea" for the inclusion of NPC caravans in the sov equation. I would guess the EVE game design team certainly has many of those things, but as we've seen it's hard to make any predictable model for how things will work once they are forged in the furnace of the actual EVE population hammering at the systems and trying to break them to their advantage. Your provocatism has provoked! --CCP Manifest--

Cailais Amarr THE ORDAINED	Posted - 2010.07.28 14:12:00 - [83] Originally by: CCP Manifest As with every change of design, it takes slotted development time. As is read from numerous other threads of late, the near future isn't exactly full of "free development time". It's your company. Free some up. C. the hydrostatic capsule blog
alittlebirdy	Posted - 2010.07.28 14:18:00 - [84] Only 17 more months left before eve gets fix's again! I say ROLL BACK to PRE dominion. Stop the false advertizing in your videos, I mean wtf you showed fleet fights FINISHING. CCP has had 6+months HALF A YEAR to "fix the lag" CCP MADE! and still has not, but don't worry walking in stations and dust514 is coming ;) I mean hey if you lag with that hooker, thatÆs just getting more time out of your isk right?! Everyone will want more lag! As to the "what game supports 500vs500." None I know of, eve don't, eve canÆt do 150vs150. What game also sells itself on that? If you make something not playable, then you need to stop everything else and FIX IT. Don't give us worthless PI. Then cry ôomg we need more people to come work for us for free to help fix the game they pay forö you want people to come to your ruse of mass testing PAY EM. Or maybe before you kill eve with your fail it is time to sell it off to another company who will give it the attention it really deserves, it is a great copy of earth and beyond but CCP is turning it into shít.
alittlebirdy	Posted - 2010.07.28 14:25:00 - [85] Originally by: CCP Manifest but as we've seen it's hard to make any predictable model for how things will work once they are forged in the furnace of the actual EVE population hammering at the systems and trying to break them to their advantage. Your provocatism has provoked! See players you are the problem RIGHT FROM CCP. It aint CCP's fault it's US players. GOD stop trying to break the servers by fighting (and you know wanting to win) and just mine. That mercoxit is so pretty don't you just want to eat it all up! Haha and you might want to SHUT UP and stop trying to provoke your PAYING customers. Just an idea you know.
Batolemaeus Caldari Money Liberation Services Corp	Posted - 2010.07.28 14:31:00 - [86] Originally by: CCP Manifest I would guess the EVE game design team certainly has many of those things, but as we've seen it's hard to make any predictable model for how things will work once they are forged in the furnace of the actual EVE population hammering at the systems and trying to break them to their advantage. I'd agree with you if the system was brand new, e.g. w-space mechanics. Maybe someone didn't notice that extreme mineral compression combined with high values of highmins dropped from rats in the drone regions would crash the market. While really annoying, and inexcusable that there was no follow up, such a blunder can be made. However, especially the supercapital changes and the "new" sov system were not brand new. Both changes built on already existing problems and reinforced them further. You can not explain those with the butterfly effect but only gross misunderstanding of the game itself. When the sov system hit sisi, people mistook it for a mere placeholder because it looked like a parody of the "old" one. Imagine my surprise when i learned that this mess was supposed to go live. If I still had access to my old corp/alliance's forums where we discussed the dominion expansion before launch, I could post you a thread of a dozen people coming to the conclusion that the system was far, far worse than the pos grind, even without taking into account the lag that would make everything even more painful, since that was the one thing we couldn't predict.
Darriele Minmatar THE MuPPeT FaCTOrY	Posted - 2010.07.28 15:21:00 - [87] oh boy
Wizzkidy	Posted - 2010.07.28 15:41:00 - [88] Who in their right mind within CCP thought it would be a good idea to add a billion new things to EVE when a 100 v 100 fleet fight turns to a sloppy mess! I really do think you need to pull some resources into fixing the things that make the game one of a kind. Going down the route of WiS and other stuff that doesn't improve performance in areas that REALLY need it is a stupid business move thats just a fact. It seems to me that CCP think that adding new content to an otherwise broken game will bring in more subs, which is probably true from the start but just wait in the long run your lose more subs than gain I can tell you that right away. Your model needs to change and if it doesn't you WILL suffer because of it.

CCP Manifest C C P	Posted - 2010.07.28 15:49:00 - [89] Originally by: alittlebirdy Originally by: CCP Manifest but as we've seen it's hard to make any predictable model for how things will work once they are forged in the furnace of the actual EVE population hammering at the systems and trying to break them to their advantage. Your provocatism has provoked! See players you are the problem RIGHT FROM CCP. It aint CCP's fault it's US players. GOD stop trying to break the servers by fighting (and you know wanting to win) and just mine. That mercoxit is so pretty don't you just want to eat it all up! Haha and you might want to SHUT UP and stop trying to provoke your PAYING customers. Just an idea you know. I'm certain I didn't say this. In fact, I said this earlier in this thread. Our game design (open sandbox) means that players will naturally group together--whether for safety in numbers, the fact that they like eachother, a desire to inhabit a place that feels "populated", for economic purposes (Jita) or because they like to have fleet fights--even if you incentivize them not to on multiple game design levels. This is not a problem nor are players a problem. This is pilots doing what they should be doing in an open sandbox game. The burden is on us to deal with that phenomenon as best we can via technology, game design and software. Other games obviously get around this by limiting the amount of people in instances (WoW) or spawning another zone when the population gets too high (City of Heroes). It's almost impossible to reproduce Tranquility in a test environment because of player behavior being so random while taking advantages of the freedom of movement and many game systems in EVE. That is all I was saying. So, our "Final Exam" for any design or code can't truly happen till it goes live. The developers try to do as much testing as possible before doing so and do have some mechanisms in place to test changes that simulate such a large environment--but it can never truly mirror the direction of use or frequency of use the players will engage the designs with on TQ. --CCP Manifest--

Richard Christy	Posted - 2010.07.28 15:49:00 - [90] lol

Wizzkidy	Posted - 2010.07.28 15:54:00 - [91] The other thing that annoyed me was the CSM minutes. Mostly all of the CSM suggestions where turned away by CCP because there too busy working on this new patch This makes little sence to me, why allow a CSM to come and have a meeting if all your gonna do is note it down and carry on the way you already where? The CSM is suppose to be giving you the players view and all you can do CCP is turn around and say "there is no time scale for this" "This cant be done" or "wait 18 months" You can't even give the CSM a "yes we will fix this ASAP here are the resources that will work on it" Whats the point of theCSM then please? I want to know.
Demonbox	Posted - 2010.07.28 16:04:00 - [92] Originally by: CCP Manifest It's almost impossible to reproduce Tranquility in a test environment because of player behavior being so random while taking advantages of the freedom of movement and many game systems in EVE. That is all I was saying. So, our "Final Exam" for any design or code can't truly happen till it goes live. The developers try to do as much testing as possible before doing so and do have some mechanisms in place to test changes that simulate such a large environment--but it can never truly mirror the direction of use or frequency of use the players will engage the designs with on TQ. yeh that's true, but 6 months have passed since the Dominion expansion, and some issues "caused" by that expansion have not yet found a solution. Now your (CCP's) declared plan is to spend more energies on new content/DUST/etc for the next 18 months,game is yours so you are of course free to choose whatever you want , BUT given this isn't a f2p game, no wonder a lot of us r "whining" about that. cya and btw thanks for postin Manifest..u'r one of the few answerin our posts
Ander Gallente Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2010.07.28 16:07:00 - [93] Originally by: CCP Manifest Originally by: alittlebirdy Originally by: CCP Manifest but as we've seen it's hard to make any predictable model for how things will work once they are forged in the furnace of the actual EVE population hammering at the systems and trying to break them to their advantage. Your provocatism has provoked! See players you are the problem RIGHT FROM CCP. It aint CCP's fault it's US players. GOD stop trying to break the servers by fighting (and you know wanting to win) and just mine. That mercoxit is so pretty don't you just want to eat it all up! Haha and you might want to SHUT UP and stop trying to provoke your PAYING customers. Just an idea you know. I'm certain I didn't say this. In fact, I said this earlier in this thread. Our game design (open sandbox) means that players will naturally group together--whether for safety in numbers, the fact that they like eachother, a desire to inhabit a place that feels "populated", for economic purposes (Jita) or because they like to have fleet fights--even if you incentivize them not to on multiple game design levels. This is not a problem nor are players a problem. This is pilots doing what they should be doing in an open sandbox game. The burden is on us to deal with that phenomenon as best we can via technology, game design and software. Other games obviously get around this by limiting the amount of people in instances (WoW) or spawning another zone when the population gets too high (City of Heroes). It's almost impossible to reproduce Tranquility in a test environment because of player behavior being so random while taking advantages of the freedom of movement and many game systems in EVE. That is all I was saying. So, our "Final Exam" for any design or code can't truly happen till it goes live. The developers try to do as much testing as possible before doing so and do have some mechanisms in place to test changes that simulate such a large environment--but it can never truly mirror the direction of use or frequency of use the players will engage the designs with on TQ. Guess you guys dont know about the port mirror feature of your core switches? Heck, even 10Ge pipes can be dumped pretty easily. Get dumping traffic and get to work. Use the dataset gathered, implement the tools required to replay the traffic log. Voila, replaying whole fleet battles made possible. Then make tweaks between and replay the battle again and see if issues occur. EVE PIRATE BattleDB.com
Camios Minmatar Insurgent New Eden Tribe	Posted - 2010.07.28 17:28:00 - [94] Edited by: Camios on 28/07/2010 17:28:33 First, thanks Manifest for you detailed reply. Quote: I said game design for sandboxes are complicated because of the possible butterfly effect of undesirable consequences, not that we don't make plans to change because we're afraid of tipping scales in the wrong direction. We've added sov mechanics and changed them in the past, and there's no ban on doing so in the future. I just don't know of immediate plans to do so. To attempt to answer your questions in honesty from what I understand as being on the fringes of the dev team. [...] As with every change of design, it takes slotted development time. As is read from numerous other threads of late, the near future isn't exactly full of "free development time". Development time isn't as easy as coming up with new designs, it requires a whole structure of programming and QA to followup afterwards. So while the ideas expressed in this thread for changing the mechanics may be sound, they do require serious vetting versus the code itself for technical feasibility, the actual coding and then QA and testing on Sisi. When you parse it out, something as major as sov changes SHOULD take a lot of development time to "tweak". Well, while I think that many of the things that came with Dominion are good (Dominion fixed the Economy of 0.0), I see that game design missed some good possibilities about small gang warfare and about splitting forces on many solarsystems in sov warfare. I mean, since CCP approach to the problem has not been so effective, maybe a more "western movie" approach with some frequent revisitations and corrections (that were promised after Dominion) would give some benefit. In the end, it's a game, and if a change in sov mechanics causes some shift in the balance power of 0.0, it's just good. For every change, there will always be someone complaining, but it does not matter. The only thing that matters is that people participate in sov related fleet battles and have fun. Quote: To further what I said above, our game designers probably have some ideas on how they'd like to shift things (I won't speak for them though), but the development time and evaluation period for those changes takes just that... time. So, since it requires development time but the slots are not infinite, it's just a matter of prioritization. I perfectly understand that the priorities of the company for EVE are Incarna and other misterious features for the winter expansion, but your (maybe now not so much) loyal hardcore playerbase needs other things (I keep being provocative but the truth is not far from what I am writing). Quote: Hahahahhaa I barely would say I have game designer instincts, unless you include home-brewed pen and paper gamemastering or emailing Noah and Torfi at 4am once I have a "brilliant idea" for the inclusion of NPC caravans in the sov equation. I would guess the EVE game design team certainly has many of those things, but as we've seen it's hard to make any predictable model for how things will work once they are forged in the furnace of the actual EVE population hammering at the systems and trying to break them to their advantage. There is just one thing I don't understand. In sov fights, EVE behaves like an RTS with good approximation. From a certain perspective, it's even simpler than an usual RTS because it does not involves economy management (during a fleet battle). So balancing eve sov warfare should be a task comparable to balancing a multiplayer RTS. I actually don't think that this vision is too far from reality. Maybe your game designer should play more RTSes? :-) Quote: once I have a "brilliant idea" for the inclusion of NPC caravans in the sov equation Hey this sounds familiar to me..
qRTA Over Blood Covenant Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2010.07.28 17:46:00 - [95] End of EvE
Camios Minmatar Insurgent New Eden Tribe	Posted - 2010.07.28 17:58:00 - [96] Edited by: Camios on 28/07/2010 17:58:26 in before eve is dying oh wait
Crucifier The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2010.07.28 19:05:00 - [97] At what point in time did CCP start not giving a **** about the players. I remember this company beeing awesome.
Grath Telkin Amarr Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2010.07.28 21:12:00 - [98] Originally by: Crucifier At what point in time did CCP start not giving a **** about the players. I remember this company beeing awesome. December, 2009 or thereabouts.
Jebizael Hunter Gallente Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.07.28 23:04:00 - [99] Edited by: Jebizael Hunter on 28/07/2010 23:06:24 Edited by: Jebizael Hunter on 28/07/2010 23:05:22 One idea might be to brute force the lag problem. (This is very similar to an earlier post in the thread, just a reiteration). Spread inactive backup sovereignty structures for a system X over several nearby systems, including X itself. If system X starts to lag out, say that 'spatial distortions' are affecting system X. One of the backup sovereignty structures activates, while the original one deactivates. If the second structure lags out, another structure activates, and so on. Basically the secondary structures act as 'backup servers' which are turned online to deal with server load. Bringing more ships to one fight is good, up to a point. If you bring vastly more than your enemy and the node lags out, you've just trapped a sizable amount of your forces in a lagged out node. Thus you don't want to bring more than 500 or so to one system. You'll want to make sure you always have enough forces to at least contest any new structures which activate, so holding back some of your forces is the optimal strategy. It's an ugly fix (reminds me of WoW battlegrounds :( ), but it may fix the problem. (This idea needs some mechanism for when systems unlag again of course). Some addendums to the idea, which could be applied seperatly to the main idea; Let players using a gate going to a lagged out system X 'skip through' to any system neighbouring X (so they don't have to enter the lagged out system). Let players in a lagged-out system X choose to enter a different neighbouring system (random spot) when they log back in (similar to the fix with Jita), so they can actually play the game.
Borun Tal Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2010.07.28 23:14:00 - [100] I actually laughed out loud at work when I read that! Lag is now officially "spatial distortion!" That's a good one...

Addrake Minmatar The Six-Pack Syndicate	Posted - 2010.07.28 23:34:00 - [101] Why does it feel like whenever the devs talk, they are smiling, smiling, noding, then I turn my back and I'm getting flicked off. I've only played this game for 3'ish months but dear god, even I notice the lag. Trying to sell that item? Please wait 5 minutes while the database catches up. And this is without going anywhere near null-sec. I payed for my accounts to play internet spaceships, not walk around, not play a FPS (already own TF2 + CS sorry CCP.) If you don't get your act together as a company, come September I'm going to be oogling cat-lady arses in FF 14 while I drink my beer. Gotta love them Japanese am-i-rite-kk.
Denidil Gallente Rape Pillage and Burn	Posted - 2010.07.29 04:35:00 - [102] Originally by: Addrake Why does it feel like whenever the devs talk, they are smiling, smiling, noding, then I turn my back and I'm getting flicked off. because you're a self important ass with a persecution complex grow the **** up
Addrake Minmatar The Six-Pack Syndicate	Posted - 2010.07.29 05:56:00 - [103] Originally by: Denidil because you're a self important ass with a persecution complex grow the **** up UMAD?
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2010.07.29 06:56:00 - [104] Originally by: xttz Breaking News: Heavy spatial distortion interrupts fight in C-J6MT "C-J6MT, Insmother - At 23:40 of 112.07.26, the violent clashes between WHITE NOISE., ATLAS and allies came to an abrupt halt after severe spatial distortions appeared on the battlefield." I'm not sure if we should be impressed or dismayed at this. Game-breaking faults posted on the login page, spun into an advert for 'cool stuff happening in space'. If CCP are going to post this crap it should at least be honest: "C-J6MT, Insmother - At 23:40 of 112.07.26, the potentially epic fleet fight between WHITE NOISE., ATLAS and allies came to an abrupt halt after we failed to fix lag issues ongoing since 2 expansions ago. Hundreds of players logged off in disgust." It is pretty easy. Those news are all IN-GAME news. And in-game no lag exists. Lag exists only out of game for the PLAYER, the CHARACTER in game cannot experience lag. They can experience blackouts, strange space-time distortions, memory loss or whatever. Since there was already some news about a big battle going on, the reader in New Eden would maybe want to read about the outcome of the battle - and what to write there? The terms "lag", "player", "node crash" and so on just do not exist in game, these are out of game terms. And since the IC news are all roleplay (RP) and can use only in-game terms, they must find some creative way to describe lag, disconnects etc. So they came up with this 'spatial distortion'. How would you describe lag and node crashes from a pure in-game point of view? If you can do it better, make a suggestion.
Dodgy Past Amarr Trans-Solar Works Rooks and Kings	Posted - 2010.07.29 12:54:00 - [105] Originally by: TheStarman Originally by: CCP Manifest Manifest being a bro See, its not the devs that we have the problem with, its your CEO/Board of Directors that I want to hit over the head with my prosthetic leg. I'd buy a few rounds for the devs. Agreed
Lubomir Penev TTSP.x.X.x.RELOADED	Posted - 2010.07.29 13:12:00 - [106] Originally by: CCP Manifest In fact, I said this earlier in this thread. Our game design (open sandbox) means that players will naturally group together--whether for safety in numbers, the fact that they like eachother, a desire to inhabit a place that feels "populated", for economic purposes (Jita) or because they like to have fleet fights--even if you incentivize them not to on multiple game design levels. Maybe. You still designed the sovereignty mechanics in such a way that the only way to topple sov is to mass the biggest possible number of people in the same system, when you could have well designed them so multiple objectives in multiple systems had to be hit at the same time to spread the load, so stop lying about that.
Darek Castigatus Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel	Posted - 2010.07.29 15:47:00 - [107] Right because CCP Manifest personally designed the entire sov system....grow the **** up. http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sig.php
Average Jack	Posted - 2010.07.29 15:49:00 - [108] Edited by: Average Jack on 29/07/2010 15:49:52 Originally by: Lubomir Penev Maybe. You still designed the sovereignty mechanics in such a way that the only way to topple sov is to mass the biggest possible number of people in the same system, when you could have well designed them so multiple objectives in multiple systems had to be hit at the same time to spread the load, so stop lying about that. ^this is one of the reasons for my outrage. I read about this suggestion many months before the release of the new Sov mechanics - even before the release of the new sov mechanics to SiSi. Did CCP listen? Did CCP learn from their previous experience (it's not like lag wasn't a massive problem before Dominion - it was just a bit less massive)? No, they didn't. And that's not what I'd call "being committed to excellence". Sounds more like "being full of crap" to me.
Hakaru Ishiwara Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2010.07.29 17:12:00 - [109] Edited by: Hakaru Ishiwara on 29/07/2010 17:16:22 Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia Originally by: Grath Telkin There is a thread nearing 100 pages of people posting about NOT wanting WiS OR Dust until you fix the game, which is entirely being ignored by the Development teams. Why is this? This is where you misunderstand the situation. Dev's have managers. Those managers have managers. Devs want the game to work as much as you or I do. But like any business if your a tech grunt and aren't give the tools or proper resources, if your scheduled and ordered to focus on other things... that as they say is that. Yelling at the devs is yelling at the only people that actually sympathize with us. They want success as much as we do. The people you should be yelling at are useless to yell at. Even IF they were to open the forums and read, they are going to hear what they want to hear and go on with how THEIR vision of CCP should be (coughnathancough). I've never seen a tech company crash and burn due to sole incompetence of their tech workers. It's always ALWAYS the upper management chasing the immediate returns brass ring and sacrificing long term stability all to gamble on impressing their investors. Period. Some companies build a solid business, a market niche and are content with that and work to ever cement their niche. See: CCP circa +/-2004 Others go full ****** and chase waterfalls flushing years of work down the drain. See: CCP now? QFT. We are now dealing with management and likely investor-level challenges / decisions impacting a game that we have thoroughly enjoyed in the past and would dearly like to continue enjoy playing long into the future. I sure hope that some of the better business schools are targeting CCP + EVE for case studies. Their published works will make for interesting reads, no doubt. Edited for content.
Naomi Wildfire Amarr Stardust Heavy Industries Majesta Empire	Posted - 2010.07.29 17:14:00 - [110] They already did the same kind of stuff about the 6NJ massacre. It was a way worse news than this.

Nardman	Posted - 2010.07.29 17:18:00 - [111] Originally by: Sub Trader watch the dominion trailer - looks great come to the real thing in eve amd spend 2 hours looking at a blank screen. calling it spacial distortion is just insulting to my custom tbh. why can't ccp be honest and say they dont have the server resources to supply large fights and then do something about it. Dominion Trailer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rQ9_3DckAQ Dominion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxbuiUlU47I I wish some how that the above video was a joke.. but any one who lives in 0.0 the only joke is on us.
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2010.07.29 20:10:00 - [112] Originally by: Nardman Edited by: Nardman on 29/07/2010 17:18:35 Edited by: Nardman on 29/07/2010 17:18:07 Originally by: Sub Trader watch the dominion trailer - looks great come to the real thing in eve amd spend 2 hours looking at a blank screen. calling it spacial distortion is just insulting to my custom tbh. why can't ccp be honest and say they dont have the server resources to supply large fights and then do something about it. Dominion Trailer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rQ9_3DckAQ Dominion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxbuiUlU47I I wish some how that the above video was a joke.. but any one who lives in 0.0 knows the only joke is on us. If you actually count the ships in the real dominion trailer you will find the entire battle was around a 100~150 ships total. Apparently that is still a playable fight if you get ccp to reinforce the node so the trailer is not lying. Originally by: Balsak Eve-Online, the game that is so awesome people are willing to give CCP money so that they may have the privilege to bash it.
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2010.07.30 04:01:00 - [113] Why do threads always die when I inject some logic into them? Originally by: Balsak Eve-Online, the game that is so awesome people are willing to give CCP money so that they may have the privilege to bash it.
Nimbat	Posted - 2010.07.31 03:16:00 - [114] It's not dead.
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2010.07.31 05:55:00 - [115] Originally by: Nimbat It's not dead. Two days since the last unique poast with any real content. It's dead, Jim. Originally by: Balsak Eve-Online, the game that is so awesome people are willing to give CCP money so that they may have the privilege to bash it.
Darth Skorpius 352 Industries	Posted - 2010.08.02 05:13:00 - [116] Originally by: Apollo Gabriel Edited by: Apollo Gabriel on 28/07/2010 01:01:49 The player base is quite frustrated ... A year ago this News Story would have gotten a few "ha ha spatial distortions..." Why? It was funny, and I laughed ... a little, because it isn't isolated, it is daily and persistent. CCP ... the only reason we are angry is that we LOVE THIS GAME and want to play it... I WANT INCARNA, and DUST is an AWESOME concept ... Microsoft Admitted Vista sucked, roll back Dominion. Best, Apollo i agree, except the last part of your final sentance. microsoft didnt roll back vista, they spent the time and resources to to do it from scratch and get it right the second time, which for dominion would be a mistake as the only real problem with it is the lag, which ccp have already stated they have a team of people who know what the hell they are doing working on it, we just need to have patience ____________________________________________
Apollo Gabriel Domini Lex Talionis Etherium Cartel	Posted - 2010.08.02 05:41:00 - [117] Originally by: Darth Skorpius Originally by: Apollo Gabriel Edited by: Apollo Gabriel on 28/07/2010 01:01:49 The player base is quite frustrated ... A year ago this News Story would have gotten a few "ha ha spatial distortions..." Why? It was funny, and I laughed ... a little, because it isn't isolated, it is daily and persistent. CCP ... the only reason we are angry is that we LOVE THIS GAME and want to play it... I WANT INCARNA, and DUST is an AWESOME concept ... Microsoft Admitted Vista sucked, roll back Dominion. Best, Apollo i agree, except the last part of your final sentance. microsoft didnt roll back vista, they spent the time and resources to to do it from scratch and get it right the second time, which for dominion would be a mistake as the only real problem with it is the lag, which ccp have already stated they have a team of people who know what the hell they are doing working on it, we just need to have patience You are right Microsoft didn't roll back Vista, but several Engineering firms did roll back to XP. All analogies are flawed :) TO CCP: The implicit promise of polished quality keeps me playing through the rough times. Don't let the Trolls keep you from your goals.
Limyla	Posted - 2010.08.02 06:28:00 - [118] Originally by: Darth Skorpius i agree, except the last part of your final sentance. microsoft didnt roll back vista, they spent the time and resources to to do it from scratch and get it right the second time, which for dominion would be a mistake as the only real problem with it is the lag, which ccp have already stated they have a team of people who know what the hell they are doing working on it, we just need to have patience I must agree with this. If CCP have a team working on it then they are working on it. No amount of player ***ing and complaining and trolling and EMORAGE-FFFFUUUUUU-SEE-HOW-YOU-DO-WITH-OUT-MY-MONEY-RAGE-QUIT is going to make them work any faster. CCP are going to work on WiS, they are going to work on Dust. Get over it and stop trying to make them run the company the way you think it should be run. Posting ideas and suggestions is one thing. But when players who have no clue Exactly How the coding of the game works start treating the DEVs like cause they cant pull a fix out there * and apply it on the next downtime no matter what is already set to go in on that downtime really just need to take a overdose sized chill pill and think to them selves. "Think i could do it any better if i was in there shoes?" /end forum rage. just sick of seeing ppl treating devs like **** when they cant do anything about it...
Barrechor Gallente Method of Destruction The 0rphanage	Posted - 2010.08.09 14:45:00 - [119] To be totally honest I'm surprised that a CCP dev hasnt come on here and posted "Were sorry but our logs dont show anything, what is this lag you speak of?". I heard once that a guy tried to buy a dev a beer at fanfest and when he asked him what he wanted he replied "Im not sure, let me check my logs to see what I drank yesterday". Dominion was an epic failiure on so many levels. Like someone said earlier, theyre just throwing more crap in our direction to try and keep us occupied (Like the PI crap) instead of sorting out core issues caused by another pointless change made in an earlier pointless patch. Sort it before Jumpgate Evolution & SW:TOR arrive CCP or risk a serious mass exedous. Jason Marshall eat my baby!
Teinyhr Minmatar Nor'akho Matar	Posted - 2010.08.09 15:50:00 - [120] Edited by: Teinyhr on 09/08/2010 15:50:50 Plenty of manchildren crying ITT. Could you now please stop crying and stop taking CCP's valuable time not demanding devblogs every half hour? Because the more they write devblogs or a dev writes here, that's time taken out of their job as a dev, working on a solution. Also has been said time and time again - if you figure yourself so smart that there is a single line of code that would fix all lag problems, feel free to apply to CCP, I heard they're hiring. Seriously, you've had plenty of blue/red posts over these issues already, how about finally letting them work?

Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2010.08.09 16:37:00 - [121] Originally by: Teinyhr Edited by: Teinyhr on 09/08/2010 15:50:50 Plenty of manchildren crying ITT. Could you now please stop crying and stop taking CCP's valuable time not demanding devblogs every half hour? Because the more they write devblogs or a dev writes here, that's time taken out of their job as a dev, working on a solution. Also has been said time and time again - if you figure yourself so smart that there is a single line of code that would fix all lag problems, feel free to apply to CCP, I heard they're hiring. Seriously, you've had plenty of blue/red posts over these issues already, how about finally letting them work? Because the single part of the game they log in to play is borked. You tend to get impatient when the single solitary thing you do has been unavailable for nearly a year. And don't get on them to try new things as they seem to be totally devoted to fleet fights only which is their call tbh. If they choose to cut themselves off from the rest of the game then oh well let them vent on the forums to pass the time. Its not like anyone here actually pays attention to them anymoar past baiting them in threads or lulzing at the rage and outright misinformation some of the elite fleet fight members poast. Originally by: Balsak Eve-Online, the game that is so awesome people are willing to give CCP money so that they may have the privilege to bash it.
Jovialmadness	Posted - 2010.08.09 16:51:00 - [122] Howdy guys. Hey i thought goons got flushed down the toilet after they forgot to push that button? Why are they still trying? Why are they still posting horribly? Thanks
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2010.08.09 16:58:00 - [123] Originally by: Jovialmadness Howdy guys. Hey i thought goons got flushed down the toilet after they forgot to push that button? Why are they still trying? Why are they still posting horribly? Thanks The pubbie leftovers from the massive arse raping the real goons gave their former alliance never left. They reformed under a fake goon moniker(as all the real goons left last year) and are now failing horribly at pretty much everything. Originally by: Balsak Eve-Online, the game that is so awesome people are willing to give CCP money so that they may have the privilege to bash it.
bitter vetiranarian	Posted - 2010.08.09 17:12:00 - [124] Originally by: Zeba Because the single part of the game they log in to play is borked. You tend to get impatient when the single solitary thing you do has been unavailable for nearly a year. And don't get on them to try new things as they seem to be totally devoted to fleet fights only which is their call tbh. If they choose to cut themselves off from the rest of the game then oh well let them vent on the forums to pass the time. Its not like anyone here actually pays attention to them anymoar past baiting them in threads or lulzing at the rage and outright misinformation some of the elite fleet fight members poast. While I agree with your general idea that there is more that people who do nothing but fight in 0.0 to do in eve, you come off as a real ass and just as pretentious, if not more so, than those complaining about that broken aspect of the game. If all the lag whining is really upsetting you that much why don't you quit? This game is a sandbox after all. You can't expect people to play the game YOUR way then complain when they tell you to eff off.
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2010.08.09 17:14:00 - [125] Originally by: bitter vetiranarian Originally by: Zeba Because the single part of the game they log in to play is borked. You tend to get impatient when the single solitary thing you do has been unavailable for nearly a year. And don't get on them to try new things as they seem to be totally devoted to fleet fights only which is their call tbh. If they choose to cut themselves off from the rest of the game then oh well let them vent on the forums to pass the time. Its not like anyone here actually pays attention to them anymoar past baiting them in threads or lulzing at the rage and outright misinformation some of the elite fleet fight members poast. While I agree with your general idea that there is more that people who do nothing but fight in 0.0 to do in eve, you come off as a real ass and just as pretentious, if not more so, than those complaining about that broken aspect of the game. If all the lag whining is really upsetting you that much why don't you quit? This game is a sandbox after all. You can't expect people to play the game YOUR way then complain when they tell you to eff off. I'm not a ccp employee so I can poast in whatever tone I **ing feel like. All we get from the fleet fight guys is rage and constant disruption of the forums on every level. So sue me if I am returning the favor in their threads. off.. Originally by:** Balsak Eve-Online, the game that is so awesome people are willing to give CCP money so that they may have the privilege to bash it.
Zeke Mobius	Posted - 2010.08.09 17:20:00 - [126] Originally by: Zeba I'm a ccp fanboi so I can poast in whatever tone I ****ing feel like. Wahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Jovialmadness	Posted - 2010.08.09 17:29:00 - [127] Originally by: Zeke Mobius Originally by: Zeba I'm a ccp fanboi so I can poast in whatever tone I **ing feel like. Wahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Layoff zeba. *** has talent. Wheras you dont.
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2010.08.09 17:32:00 - [128] Originally by: Zeke Mobius Originally by: Zeba Wahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Please link me a single thread I have ever made with any of my tears in them. Hell, if anything I've taken shots at ccp in a far greater number of posts than all the nub angry fleet fight guy alts combined. But lookie lookie I actually get results because I take the time to logically present an argument and to logically bash the emotroll haters trying to pull my thread down. CCP went from "nah, no local in wh on lauch is not really a design priority and will only be considered for a later release" to "Hey kids we are going to go with no local in wh on launch!!" due to my dogged determination along with plenty of rational backup from my forum mates. Maybe you fleet fight guys could do the same to get ccp to listen to you? God knows the current situation we have here is doing absolutely nothing for your cause. Tbh if I was ccp and actually had the fix ready to go in at hotpatch I wouldn't deploy it just because the ones it helps have been such unmitigated areshats. Originally by: Balsak Eve-Online, the game that is so awesome people are willing to give CCP money so that they may have the privilege to bash it.
RentableMuffin	Posted - 2010.08.09 20:14:00 - [129] they have used that line for years... and if ccp really wanted to get people to go test lag they would do another armageddon day
Epicbeardman	Posted - 2010.08.09 21:18:00 - [130] Breaking news! Two alliances filled to the brim with tubby virgins are unhappy. According to a recent poll two percent of EVE players stated they were concerned with the 'game-breaking' latency. The other 98% could not be reached for comment as they were out kissing females, working for their money and not turning into fatties. Here's John with the weather.



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