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Nekhad Jormuzzar
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Posted - 2005.01.11 20:19:00 -
[811]
Edited by: Nekhad Jormuzzar on 11/01/2005 20:20:22
 Originally by: Quantum Ghost
I cannot belive that every gun in a sea based fleet is ever pointed at the same target, with the exception of the hindenburge (sp?) battle.
An example of RL naval ganking would be the cold war soviet doctrine of saturation missile attack on carriers. The AEGIS tremendous tracking power was developed on this scenario.
When there are no lines of sight, no logistic constraints, no splash damage danger for large concentrations of troops, ganking is the rule.
I do agree that it can detract from game experience, I just don't like artificial arbitrary limits like 'You can't receive more damage than X hp/s'. Blame it on my engineering training. ;)
I've come up with a couple ways of reasonably implementing such a model (around locking time and weapon calibrating time), but they would have too big an impact on other stuff.
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2005.01.11 20:51:00 -
[812]
Originally by: Nomen Nescio
Edited by: Nomen Nescio on 11/01/2005 20:10:54
In fact on a second thought the soft borders could be preferable over strict limit. Lets say we can play with progressive resistance...
Removing warp scramblers and/or implimenting a "run and hide" button would be easier. And make more sense.
If you're ganked, it's usually because you screwed up. If not? Well, **** happens. Learn who the enemy are. Learn how to evade them. Learn that PLAYER skill is what counts at the end of the day.
Don't ask for a "run and hide" button.
"As far as I can tell, It doesn't matter who you are, If you can believe there's something worth fighting for " - Garbage, "Parade" |
Nomen Nescio
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Posted - 2005.01.11 21:02:00 -
[813]
Edited by: Nomen Nescio on 11/01/2005 21:02:55
Originally by: Maya Rkell
If you're ganked, it's usually because you screwed up. If not? Well, **** happens. Learn who the enemy are. ...
Don't ask for a "run and hide" button.
So basicaly you agree that double HP on ship wont change a thing, right? Since then you screw up, you screw up, and then you are uber, you dont need double HP?
I dont ask for anything, I just think that if ccp says "more HP to help with ganking" its a bit of unlogical, since it wont solve "the problem".
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2005.01.11 22:25:00 -
[814]
I know it'll completely screw over s LOT of ships without radical changes, and it'll take months with large amounts of useless ships. I'm NOT in favour of that.
"As far as I can tell, It doesn't matter who you are, If you can believe there's something worth fighting for " - Garbage, "Parade" |
Norim Arid
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Posted - 2005.01.11 23:12:00 -
[815]
I smell missions becoming more booring, I mean, we've already got deadspace which most of the time is very slow (atleast for me and a lot of my friends). and now everything is getting more tankability while guns stay the same: "YAY, more retardation, I'll just leave my drones here attacking and the mission might be done in a week or two." I hope the devs have a good plan to avert such a thing, I know I'm worried 
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Mitram
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Posted - 2005.01.12 08:53:00 -
[816]
I think there is a simple solution to this:
Don't touch it.
The whole game would be unbalanced afterwards while EVE is currently very well balanced. (Except the projectiles)
Currently we don't see fleets with only scorps and ravens or only geddons and apocs (and if you see them you know how to counter them easily)
We don't see so many Megas (don't know why) or Dominix (drones are easy to counter with large/medium smartbombs or range)
Tempest and Tyhoons are also rare.
The ship HP is currently not the issue. Stuff is well balanced and nobody is really crying when he get ganked (1 bs against 3-4 bs, thats always instant death and it should be if you are not smart enough to counter such an attack. You can counter it if you are smart)
So my statment is: Leave the HP of the existing ships as they are but consider an improvement or the new superheavy ships. How about a reinforcemode at 25% structure on this ships? These superheavy ships would have to carry some stuff similar to POS and some module to use that stuff to make it a lot more difficult to remove the last 25% of the structure. Add no new structure repairs. Why, because without better structure repairs this reinforcemode would be just the last chance to escape instead of an usable tactic. Operating a ship with only 25% or less structure left (even if the armor/shield are at 100% again) would be a risk. So the ship can only hide in safe spots and call for help to escape. (E.g. a scout to find a possible way out)
What do you think?
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Heero Yuy
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Posted - 2005.01.12 11:33:00 -
[817]
Originally by: Mitram
We don't see so many Megas (don't know why) or Dominix (drones are easy to counter with large/medium smartbombs or range)
Tempest and Tyhoons are also rare.
It depends where you look imo. I know a large number of tempest pilots
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Dr Derek
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Posted - 2005.01.12 13:26:00 -
[818]
damm i cant connect to test server =/
Is it cuz i changed PW? Help me get in with my current PW plz 
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Mayas
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Posted - 2005.01.12 13:40:00 -
[819]
Because i didnt read all of the posts but still wanna give my thoughts i might be repeating someone, so sorry if i do.
OK so amarr is armor tankers, caldari are shield tankers, and i should think that most gallente BS pilots armor tank aswell, i dont know about minmatar so i will leave them out. Now amarr and caldari both get 80% increase in respective tanking HPs while gallente gets only 75% to armor.
While i understand that RP wise it can be argued that this would be just fine i think in terms of balancing ships this would be a mistake, the 10% extra the gallente get to shields isent nearly as useful as the 5% they loose in armor (compared to amarr/caldari) cause shields dont matter at all for an armor tanker. And the extra boost to structure means allmost nothing at all!
So in short, be careful not to unbalance something that is (for the most parts) ok based on an RP perspective, better to spend more time getting it right than having to fix it later on!
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sgt spike
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Posted - 2005.01.12 16:36:00 -
[820]
Edited by: sgt spike on 12/01/2005 16:37:25
Edited by: sgt spike on 12/01/2005 16:36:12
sorry if this sounds really ignorant but the whole gankin part of this thread just fired me up, i believe i speak from experience here as i have both been on the receiving end of , and participated in GANKING.
there are places in the eve universe where you can be safe from non-concensual pvp if you dont like getting ganked stay there!!!
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Mr Patel
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Posted - 2005.01.12 20:43:00 -
[821]
Well, since fun one-on-one will become ridiculous as often you won't be able to break each others tanks, this will in any case increase ganking by large groups... I really can't be bothered to make a list, but there are at least 10 good reasons why these changes are idioitc if you think about it and read these 23 pages..
...and they're completely unecessary anyway!
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Mr Patel
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Posted - 2005.01.12 20:49:00 -
[822]
it just really angers me when in one sticky I see gentle and sensible projectile changes, informatively expounded for comment by TomB, and a useful tweak to help fix the major problem of race balance that has led to apocs and ravens everywhere, and then a sledgehammer change like this which will throw every thing off and make the ship/setup choices even more restricted cos caldari and ammar get even stronger and EVERYONE will have to tank rather than being a little more creative on setups. Why don't ccp just hand everyone a titan hardwired with a standard setup after they have played for 1 year (or wired ccp and equivalent sum of money)
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Nadec Ascand
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Posted - 2005.01.12 20:56:00 -
[823]
Originally by: Mitram
We don't see so many Megas (don't know why) or Dominix (drones are easy to counter with large/medium smartbombs or range)
U dunnow why???
Try to fit one may be...
1- stick to long range i put 7 425 an assault laucher...
Daaamn i need 1 rcu to fit that...
Who else to fit basic weapon need to use 1 RCU ...
and with only my highslot fit i have 300power left and around 100 cpu...
OK why not
1 afterburner 100 ok it fit well
Im gallente so i gonna Armor tank lets say 1 large armor repairer...
And one more RCU and if i want another large armor (yeah gonna do like an ammar bs) i need another one rcu and 1 cpu...
lets look at my low slot 4 RCU 1 CPU 2 armor repairer
Where are my hardener gone????
And if i try to fire DAMN whats that my cap is burning like hell oups no more cap im dead...
2- Will talk about a better fit i know
Blasteron yeaaaaaah
High
7 modal electron (yep named coz it rocks)
1 heavy nosfe (yep also named)
Med
mwd warp scrmble statifier cap booster
Low
2 or 3 dmg mod some cap recharger (yeah not right name i know)
2 armor repairer
2/3 hardeners
I fire to this tempest at 10km it die quite fast hit the cap booster coz time of coming half cap it also hit  armor repairer
but its good i can take it
Now lets talk about a raven hit hard tank good really close i warp out 15% armor left 80 % structure
about an apoc eh whats that its fit like me have always cap and can tank my massive dmg... 
Pls dont tell me why u cant see so much megatron... i like this ship and fly in it instead of this Raven for teh Win coz i love it...
But i use too much cap for close range and have not enough power for long range.
 I think Ship dont need any boost in shield nor armor.
If u die thats ur own fault and u learn of it (yeah already loose a meg and a scorp)
But i think some ship need some balancing in there stat...
Cant understand why an hybrid stuff use more cap than a laser wich use lectric power to be fire and need no ammunitions...
Yeah im caldari... and yeah im flying a megatron...
Why coz maybe now only caldary are tough enough to fly those and evryone use caldari ship...
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Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2005.01.13 00:02:00 -
[824]
I think the most obvious and important oints have been made here already:
hp increases should be based on usability, not RP. giving a race that armortanks structure or shield increases will gimp them compared to the ones you give what they need.
HP increases unsettle the whole balance as we know it. Increased hitpoints mean more time needed shooting to get thru, means more cap expended, means more power to the tanks that can run stuff forever as it is. And we all knwo who that are.
Hp increase opens up the whole can of worms regarding the atm not too large impace of BS speed. Once your survivability goes up due to more hp's, speed to get out of tht web/scramble range gets more important all of a sudden. Check your BS roles and speeds before changing all this.
HP increase wreaks havoc on ammo, dronespace and cap charges.
HP increase relative to size kills of effectivity of small v large.
HP increase is currently a very bad idea. Get the balance right, then go and find better ways to make fights alst longer.
oh, and as to the gankage debate. Getting ganked means the error was yours. Noone needs to be ganked and there is no reason to remove the possibility of a quick death of severely outnumbered. PvP is about more then your 1v1 setup, deal with it.
_______________________________________________
Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know.
Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online
Solutions to your issues. |
Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2005.01.13 07:15:00 -
[825]
No, the most important point is: DON'T DO IT.
kthx.
"As far as I can tell, It doesn't matter who you are, If you can believe there's something worth fighting for " - Garbage, "Parade" |
Selim
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Posted - 2005.01.13 10:37:00 -
[826]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
No, the most important point is: DON'T DO IT.
kthx.
^
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DealBaBy
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Posted - 2005.01.13 12:03:00 -
[827]
Originally by: RollinDutchMasters
Making combat longer will seriously impact the ability of setups that rely on cap injectors with cap charges (*cough*blasterthron*cough*) to compete with setups that use natural cap regeneration (*cough*amarr*cough*).
Just use your head, make the cap charges smaller
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Nadec Ascand
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Posted - 2005.01.13 12:17:00 -
[828]
im already using the less cap large hybride weapon i can (good named modal electron) and my cap is dying pretty fast...
with hp change blasteron is dead... hybrid use too much cap and megatron have so few...
this mean put 5 hybrid gun and 3 nosferatu and in this case i wont be able to beat any tanker who actually can fire freely as too much cap or no cap use...
Yeah im caldari... and yeah im flying a megatron...
Why coz maybe now only caldary are tough enough to fly those and evryone use caldari ship...
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Captain Rod
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Posted - 2005.01.13 23:06:00 -
[829]
SOLUTION: hurryup and bring out the Dreadnoughts and Titans hehehe. They'll have more HP I guess? Then you have POS killing ships innit. Jobs a good'un. 
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Sarkos
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Posted - 2005.01.14 08:10:00 -
[830]
Hey TomB,
Can Minmatar ships get an additional mid slot so we can be the shield tankers you say we are so good at? Oh, a nice Cap boost to use shield tanking would also be appriciated.
Thanks much
Either free the slaves or we will come and get them.
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OnDa Rag
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Posted - 2005.01.16 00:30:00 -
[831]
DEFFINITELY NO
Why add HP to ships (which will create a whole bunch of other balance problems) when ya can fix it by tweaking some other settings. Personally I feel that if a person trained a skill to deal uber damage to kill a ship quickly, then they should. But I'd rather have damaged tweaked then HP's increased so . . .
Here is what I see:
HP increase is proposed to extend battle times.
This is cuz some of us (those w/out gimped ships/wepons) can deal uber damage quickly. And this is cuz we have skills and mods which have allowed us to deal a certain amount of damage. And the damage is high enough to make the current Ship HP's unacceptable. Thus, as weapon strength increases then ship HP relatively become weaker. And the oppisite holds true to: Strenghtening ships makes weapons weaker. So why not just tweak weapons.
The current problem is that people can deal too much damage with weapons dishing out more than what was expected. So why dont ya set a limit to the max damage a particular weapon type can dish out. The bonuses increase the chances of getting closer to that max damage level but in the end that damage has a cap that cannot be surpassed.
Thus each weapon has a max damage it can deal. The probibility of getting to that damage level is increased by skills, ship bonuses, and mods. The higher skill = greater chance to inflict max possible damage.
Still think that wont help? Then increase shield, armour, and hull resistances. Otherwise place the nerf where the problem is . . . in the weapon's damage capabilities.
My 2isk
OnDa
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Captin Zoom
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Posted - 2005.01.16 02:17:00 -
[832]
Just dont do It
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Ordo Abchao
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Posted - 2005.01.16 10:59:00 -
[833]
Don't do it.
Order out of Chaos |
Presidio
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Posted - 2005.01.16 19:45:00 -
[834]
I am sick and tired of the drastic changes in this game. I mean every pach completelly changes the entire game mechanics. It's like playing a different game. I wish you'd decide once and for all the way ships should be in EVE and than just fine tune it because this is getting ridiculous.
For example minmatars still haven't recovered from the nerf 8 months ago and you're thinking of making them even more nerfed by giving them 25% less than other races. This Tempest can effectivelly armor and shield tank is stupid. Eighter make it an armor or a shield tanker. It can't be both, because noone does both at the same time.
-
"Passivity is fatal to us. Our goal is to make the enemy passive."
Mao Tse-tung
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fisho
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Posted - 2005.01.17 00:14:00 -
[835]
Why is ccp going thru with something which is obviously hated by the majority of the gamers?
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Seraphim Malificio
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Posted - 2005.01.17 03:03:00 -
[836]
I only have one thing to say.
Drunkenmaster + suggestion = my hero. Devs get to work! 
Best regards,
- Wisdom is nothing without perception -
CEO, Azraels Disciples
Recruiting join channel "Azras" |
unnamed hero
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Posted - 2005.01.17 12:51:00 -
[837]
I just wonder about all drastic changes in eve... no more oversizing, no more ganking, no more ...
is this HP change in favor of all miners, so pack of frigs can no longer gank em?
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Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2005.01.18 19:15:00 -
[838]
Edited by: Rod Blaine on 18/01/2005 19:43:51
Apoc+ increased armor = 12 K armor at full skills
Add one or two regerative adaptive nano membranes (15% to armor for a bit of cpu and no grid) and you get:
a ******* POS
12K + ~30%= 16000 armor hp with average of 65% resist and two nonstop repairers running.
I wodner how many cap charges a megathron will need to chew thru that, even assuming the apoc doest fire back or drain any cap
_______________________________________________
Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know.
Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online
Solutions to your issues. |
Earthan
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Posted - 2005.01.18 19:18:00 -
[839]
I really dont understand all the negativity towards HP change, I think its a great idea.
I have read a few of the posts and:
1- Saying that ship hp increase will allow to pass gate camping is in 90 % of time bull****. 99,9 % of pilots use in 0.0 where most of action takes place bms wich negates camping for the incoming ships .For the outgoing ships from gate hp doesnt matter, you got to warp scrmble your prey .
So effect of ships hp increase upon camping : none.
2- Saying that it will make combat boring is unbelievable for me.Of course im talking about pvp. In combat with gankougeouddons even when 1-1 bs the combat lasts around 20 seconds. If its a group of 4-4 bs with standard outfit the combat lasts also incredibly short around this 20-40 seconds.
With bigger fleets we all know its matter of seconds.
So all it will do is grant a little more time for some tactical thinking, for calling support * touhg imho it still to short for this).
I dont get it are you happy with the situation atm wich means you earn 6 hours for a bs to loose it in 20 seconds?Do you want the most entretaining part of the game to last 20 seconds?
I was expecting bs battles to be epic to last at least minutwes 2-4 minutes or longer, so you can think , try different things, call support.
Imho so fast as it is now should only last frig battle , cruiser longer and bs really much longer.
For me HP increase is a great idea to make combat better , so bs battles last longer , introducing some tactic into the combat itself.Atm all that matters is the outfit and a bit lag and even yuor reflex.
3- Argument the log off tactic will be easy .Well it might be true but its a flaw of game wich must be remedied in another way, not stopping the psitive step to make battles last little longer.
So Please all that wrote negatively about it , rethink this.I personally have great hopes for this change.
Stars, stars like dust, all around me.... |
Daakkon
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Posted - 2005.01.18 19:30:00 -
[840]
Originally by: Earthan
I really dont understand all the negativity towards HP change, I think its a great idea.
I have read a few of the posts and:
1- Saying that ship hp increase will allow to pass gate camping is in 90 % of time bull****. 99,9 % of pilots use in 0.0 where most of action takes place bms wich negates camping for the incoming ships .For the outgoing ships from gate hp doesnt matter, you got to warp scrmble your prey .
So effect of ships hp increase upon camping : none.
2- Saying that it will make combat boring is unbelievable for me.Of course im talking about pvp. In combat with gankougeouddons even when 1-1 bs the combat lasts around 20 seconds. If its a group of 4-4 bs with standard outfit the combat lasts also incredibly short around this 20-40 seconds.
With bigger fleets we all know its matter of seconds.
So all it will do is grant a little more time for some tactical thinking, for calling support * touhg imho it still to short for this).
I dont get it are you happy with the situation atm wich means you earn 6 hours for a bs to loose it in 20 seconds?Do you want the most entretaining part of the game to last 20 seconds?
I was expecting bs battles to be epic to last at least minutwes 2-4 minutes or longer, so you can think , try different things, call support.
Imho so fast as it is now should only last frig battle , cruiser longer and bs really much longer.
For me HP increase is a great idea to make combat better , so bs battles last longer , introducing some tactic into the combat itself.Atm all that matters is the outfit and a bit lag and even yuor reflex.
3- Argument the log off tactic will be easy .Well it might be true but its a flaw of game wich must be remedied in another way, not stopping the psitive step to make battles last little longer.
So Please all that wrote negatively about it , rethink this.I personally have great hopes for this change.
are you an apoc pilot and do you use mega pulses?
if so do you think they are imbalanced atm?
www.dark-cartel.com |
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