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2ndAdam
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2010.08.10 04:26:00 -
[1]
Hey, so I recently grabbed some torps for a pve raven to help friends run missions with. I had never tried torps for pve before but saw they were great when flying with a friend in a Golem. Anyways, I strapped some t2 launchers and 2 target painters on, rigs, implants, etc. to get my range out to 47km with javelin (eft says anyways). I know effective missile range is going to be less than that so that didn't bother me. However, I started to find out that I'm not hitting even at 45 km. But that doesn't stop there - this isn't the weird part
There's a weird behavior at 43-42 km. My first volley on a target 42-43km out will always hit. (mind you, both me and the target are moving at about the same speed usually since I have web drones, I even tested it on a sansha battleship that had the same speed as me to the exact digit). The first volley hits. The following 2 volleys do not make it to the target. The 4th hits, the following 2 volleys do not make it, and it repeats. I've seen this happen multiple times on multiple days.
I've talked with several friends who have used torps in the past and have also mentioned that this does happen to them as well at different ranges. One of them had 55km+ range and his missed at 25km sometimes. What other factors are affecting my torps? I've heard some wild explanations from the torps needing to accelerate to my own ship speed pushing it (lol) but none of those explain why I'm hitting every third volley and missing the other 2. If need be, I'll concede that my true range is not 47km as eft says, however why is it hitting and then not hitting? If I'm out of range, I'm out of range but this doesn't seem to be the case. All I can think of is it is some kind of glitch.
Can anyone comment? I have taken some screenshots although they don't really highlight the problem well so I won't link them unless there is demand for it. I might fraps it if it annoys me a lot.
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Pharos Pharos
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Posted - 2010.08.10 05:09:00 -
[2]
Just posting to confirm that I've had the same problem with HAMs (inconsistent hits at identical ranges that don't seem explainable by defenders or anything else). Might be a general missile issue.
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Psychotic Maniac
Caldari Head Shrinkers
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Posted - 2010.08.10 06:14:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Psychotic Maniac on 10/08/2010 06:18:51
USE LAZORS!!! FTW
sounds more like a dsync issues with the overview or lag or both.
perhaps you're only seeing one explosion for all the torps even though they don't hit at the same time? you're still getting max damage; just w/o the exposions. --
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you." -John Wooden |
Simply Human
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Posted - 2010.08.10 09:27:00 -
[4]
Could it be that they're close enough to the edge of your range that their velocity is making the missile have to travel further than it's capable of?
Even though the target is at x km from you when you fire the target is still moving while the missile is flying. So if it's flying away or to the side the missile with have to fly further to catch up. |
Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2010.08.10 11:11:00 -
[5]
My guess is that actual missile range is something like 42.333km, and somewhere in the combat system some programmer thought it would be clever to spread that 1/3rd km between three volleys as a whole integer 1km plus two 0km.
Do you get the same behaviour inside 42km?
-- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel] |
CONCORD4U
Amarr Hedion University
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Posted - 2010.08.10 11:37:00 -
[6]
I have had similar issues with a Stealthbomber. First volley hits full damage, 2nd and 3rd hit for only about 25% of it while maintaining the same speed and distance to the target. It happens at the edge of my range but also when I decide to orbit at 10km. So there is no consitency in the damage the torps do. Second what surprizes me is that torps that get shot at with defender missiles hit hard. So the ones that do only 25% damage never get shot by defenders and all volleys shot at with defenders do almost full damage.
Torps are bugged imo
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Goremageddon Box
Minmatar Guerilla Gorilla
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Posted - 2010.08.10 11:41:00 -
[7]
nerf caldari to the max _______________________ Hottest Character Ever. |
Goose99
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Posted - 2010.08.10 14:05:00 -
[8]
There's missile acceleration, rat speed, missile traveling longer distance than your line of sight distance from orbiting ship, plus lag. And at edge of theoretical range, all missiles behave erratically, depending on how the target move. It's just you only notice it for hams/torps.
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stoicfaux
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Posted - 2010.08.10 14:38:00 -
[9]
Yup, weird things happen at the edge of a missile's effective range.
My guess is that the server ticks affect it. Meaning if the server updates a ship's position every 100ms, a missile's effective range could be off by however far it can travel in 200ms.
There is a formula for effective missile range. Check out The Big Ninetails Thread of Useful FormulaeÖ ----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
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Guy LeDuche
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Posted - 2010.08.10 14:54:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Guy LeDuche on 10/08/2010 14:54:38
Originally by: stoicfaux Yup, weird things happen at the edge of a missile's effective range.
My guess is that the server ticks affect it. Meaning if the server updates a ship's position every 100ms, a missile's effective range could be off by however far it can travel in 200ms.
There is a formula for effective missile range. Check out The Big Ninetails Thread of Useful FormulaeÖ
Nice thread, good page to bookmark.
That formula is only between 2 stationary targets. It doesn't take account target's speed, direction, and change in direction after missile has been fired. I don't know about any server tick, it may very well be true. But even if it's not, slight changes in target speed/direction/change in direction can make a difference for missiles fired at them at edge of range. Rats do change speed/direction in orbit, especially if you're on the move and they're compensating to maintain orbit.
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Helen Hunts
Gallente Red Dragon Mining inc Red Dragon Industries
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Posted - 2010.08.10 19:21:00 -
[11]
A good rule-of-thumb that I came across that seems to be just about right for calculating range is Vel(max) * Time(Flight time) * 0.9(Acclereration/manuvering) = Range. (Check stats while the torp is loaded for current values including skills and ship bonus)
Also, if you are having to chase after a target, there's more actual distance for the torp to cover. If you're kiting (running away from) targets, the torp has less than the listed distance to travel.
Torps generally have enough damage on their own, but need every last bit of range (especially speed) that you can beg/borrow/steal for them. _______________________________
Mine da rocks, make more ships. Pop da rats, make more rigs. Sell da gear, make more money.
Any Questions? |
2ndAdam
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2010.08.11 02:21:00 -
[12]
Hey, forgot i had this thread up. Reading the responses, none of them are relevant to the particular issue. I understand that a moving target affects range. But it should not affect it that much - the targets are WELL within range and are moving EXTREMELY slowly so they could never possibly move outside of effective range in that time.
Even if the rats are somehow kiting the torps long enough for them to disappear, why is every third volley hitting? If it were the case, no volley would hit. There is something else going on.
Thanks for the desyncing comments, it could very well be that. However, it's too regular to be a desync.
As for volley damage decrease when you were using a stealth bomber, the target simply sped on you. My torps range from 600 damage per volley to 3900 depending on if a rat is approaching or not.
More comments needed!
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stoicfaux
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Posted - 2010.08.11 02:31:00 -
[13]
Originally by: 2ndAdam Hey, forgot i had this thread up. Reading the responses, none of them are relevant to the particular issue. I understand that a moving target affects range. But it should not affect it that much - the targets are WELL within range and are moving EXTREMELY slowly so they could never possibly move outside of effective range in that time.
Even if the rats are somehow kiting the torps long enough for them to disappear, why is every third volley hitting? If it were the case, no volley would hit. There is something else going on.
Thanks for the desyncing comments, it could very well be that. However, it's too regular to be a desync.
As for volley damage decrease when you were using a stealth bomber, the target simply sped on you. My torps range from 600 damage per volley to 3900 depending on if a rat is approaching or not.
More comments needed!
http://eve-search.com/thread/1307419
I noticed the same problem with torpedo testing against stationary targets. At a certain point, sometimes the missile hits, sometimes it doesn't. I really do think it's something to do with the server tick, aka how often the server computes the position of objects in the game.
----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
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Lexiur
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Posted - 2010.08.11 10:41:00 -
[14]
It might be your target painters; they're actually chance based if I remember correctly, with 100% within optimal. I know for a fact that if I paint a target and within about a second launch my torps, the first hit is a much lower damage than the second volley when the painters have been at it longer. I now wait till all the painters are at about 1/3rd cycle before launching, then the first volley always hit for max damage.
The damage difference you mention is about what I get with the TP thing as well, I just don't know why it is such a big difference though...
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Lecius
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Posted - 2010.08.11 10:43:00 -
[15]
oh, and above your TP's optimal range you might therefore be at a consistent miss/hit chance distribution
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stoicfaux
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Posted - 2010.08.11 17:19:00 -
[16]
It's not a TP issue. Even if the TP misses, the torpedo will still hit.
The trouble being described here is: * shooter is stationary * target is stationary * shooter and target are X meters apart, and the missile will sometimes hit and sometimes miss. Where miss = never makes contact, as in ran out of fuel before reaching the target.
If the range doesn't change and the targets aren't moving, why would a missile sometimes hit and sometimes miss?
----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
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Ifly Uwalk
Caldari Empire Tax Collection Agency
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Posted - 2010.08.11 18:57:00 -
[17]
Just posting to say that I was recently in convo with a guy who was shooting a POS with torps and describing the exact same problem. Might indeed be a new(?) bug.
Ifly
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Val Rauko
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Posted - 2010.08.11 20:11:00 -
[18]
I have had similar issues. Post a bug report and we will post a confirmation in it. Hopefully they will look into it.
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Caius Sivaris
Dark Nexxus
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Posted - 2010.08.11 22:17:00 -
[19]
Originally by: CONCORD4U I have had similar issues with a Stealthbomber. First volley hits full damage, 2nd and 3rd hit for only about 25% of it while maintaining the same speed and distance to the target. It happens at the edge of my range but also when I decide to orbit at 10km. So there is no consitency in the damage the torps do.
Your speed is irrelevant, what count is the speed of the target. Also don't forget they could start or stop using their mwd thus greatly affecting their sig radius.
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Frozean
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Posted - 2010.08.12 03:02:00 -
[20]
Always cut 10-15% out of the max range.
With this rule, i NEVER NEVER NEVER ever missed. My real range is 45km with faction torps and 65km with javelins (or is it 67 i x remember)
So i ussualy shoot when within 40km (faction), and 60km (javelin). i have spent almost 80,000 faction torpedo's and 10,000 javelin torpedo's in my career as a mission runner, earned almost a hundred billion out of it, and i NEVER missed a shot that should have hit.
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Thorian Baalnorn
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Posted - 2010.08.12 06:23:00 -
[21]
Ive had the same problem but with cruises and belt BSes in a 30-60 KM range. a volley would simply never hit. happened a few times.
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2ndAdam
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2010.08.12 13:04:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Frozean Always cut 10-15% out of the max range.
With this rule, i NEVER NEVER NEVER ever missed. My real range is 45km with faction torps and 65km with javelins (or is it 67 i x remember)
So i ussualy shoot when within 40km (faction), and 60km (javelin). i have spent almost 80,000 faction torpedo's and 10,000 javelin torpedo's in my career as a mission runner, earned almost a hundred billion out of it, and i NEVER missed a shot that should have hit.
Missing the point, reread if you care to.
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GGjita
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Posted - 2010.08.12 14:47:00 -
[23]
First off I have seen a lot of false info in thread up to this point.
If your missiles hit or not is based on a couple factors. First off missiles in general have to accelerate up to their max flight speed. This means that if your missile travels 10km/sec and has 10 seconds worth of fuel it should in theory go 100km. But the fact that it has to waste the first second or so accelerating up to 10km/sec, means that in that first second it is only going to travel 5km, meaning your missile will only go 95km. Now I just used some random numbers here because every player/missile will have different values depending on what their skills are, but it illustrates the point.
The next thing to consider is the flight path of the missile. The above missile is already losing 5km of flight path so it is only going to travel 95km. The thing to remember is that this is 95km in a straight line. If the rat you are shooting at is orbiting you it is going to mean that the missile has to fly in a curved path to hit the target (there are skills that help reduce this but it still occurs). What this means is that a target that is orbiting you at 93km is theoretically inside your missile range but the fact that this ship is orbiting you means that your missile will have to take a curved path to get to the ship and not a straight line. Since the missile has to travel farther to get to the ship that is only 93 km from you it is going to knock off even more of your max range when ships are orbiting you.
If you need a visual of this take a ruler. First put on end of the ruler at the corner of a piece of paper and make a dot on the other end. This shows how far your missile will travel in a straight line. It should be 12 inches since the ruler is straight. Now take that ruler and bend it on the paper with one end still on that corner. With the ruler bent (make sure it has a good curve in it) make a dot at the end of the ruler. Now straighten the ruler back out and measure from the corner to the dot. You should have gotten a straight line measurement that is less than 12 inches. This shows that even though your missile did travel 12 inches total sometimes the missile has farther to travel than what the straight line distance between you and an object is.
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stoicfaux
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Posted - 2010.08.12 15:33:00 -
[24]
Originally by: GGjita First off I have seen a lot of false info in thread up to this point.
First off missiles in general have to accelerate up to their max flight speed.
That never happens. Missiles (and ships) never reach their max flight speed. Instead they keep accelerating and try to reach their max speed, but never quite make it. Read this thread for the gory details about Eve's acceleration formula.
What the OP describes matches what I saw at the edge of torpedo range. A torp might hit, the next two might miss, and the fourth would hit. (Again, this was a stationary Raven shooting at a stationary shuttle.) I think this effect is why my testing revealed that the effective range formula was a tiny bit high in post #25.
----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
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Tiberizzle
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Posted - 2010.08.14 02:43:00 -
[25]
I can confirm that this is the exact behavior I experience with my HAM Tengu. Even with my ship stationary firing at a stationary target, I experienced hit probability declining from 100% at about 18km down to 0% at 23-24km of 27.5km EFT range and varying with range.
It's probably a bug relating to the motion timers on the server-side as stoicfaux implied, but have fun getting something other than the "missile acceleration" boilerplate out of CCP in response to a petition if you happen to go that route.
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