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Seishi Maru
doMAL S.A.
39
   |
Posted - 2012.08.08 10:42:00 -
[121] - Quote
Cpt Branko wrote:Hurtado Soneka wrote:
Now, just because the ASBs are potent, you need to remember the counter to them is time
Time is a luxury you often don't have. Saying something like this belies the fact you're an EFT PVPer. Edit: oh, now I see why you like ASB. Your kills are 10-20 v 1, and your losses are 1v1s and 2v1s. I imagine bait & blob people love the ASB very much.
If you don have that luxury.. too bad for you..e ve is not suposed to be easy. Same way in other situations your victim does nto have the other luxuries that could help them.
What I see here is a bunch of crybabies that cannot accept that eve can be unfair to EVERYONE.. including them from time to time.
Find situations to fight where you DO have that time!
Also the ASB increased a LOT the number of peopel that go solo to low sec to have some solo PVP fun, therefore more than neutralizing any possible loss on hopless prays that these cry babies are craying about.
Eve is much better with ASB thatn without them. What need to be done is find a way that active armor tanking be good also and avoid stupid things like double ASB.
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Xuixien
Rifterlings
Ushra'Khan
98
|
Posted - 2012.08.08 16:38:00 -
[122] - Quote
When armor-bonused armor-tanking ships are slaping on an ASBs because it's better than their traditional armor tank, there's obviously an issue somewhere.
Rabble Rabble!! |
Seishi Maru
doMAL S.A.
41
|
Posted - 2012.08.08 18:48:00 -
[123] - Quote
Xuixien wrote:When armor-bonused armor-tanking ships are slaping on an ASBs because it's better than their traditional armor tank, there's obviously an issue somewhere.
you mean as the shield tanking ships were fitting 1600 plates for YEARS?
Double standards anyone? |
Takeshi Yamato
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
282
|
Posted - 2012.08.08 20:17:00 -
[124] - Quote
Seishi Maru wrote:Xuixien wrote:When armor-bonused armor-tanking ships are slaping on an ASBs because it's better than their traditional armor tank, there's obviously an issue somewhere. you mean as the shield tanking ships were fitting 1600 plates for YEARS? Double standards anyone?
Can you be more specific? Which shield tanking ships are you talking about?
An analysis: fixing active tanking in a logical manner:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1693846 |
Lugalzagezi666
49
|
Posted - 2012.08.08 20:57:00 -
[125] - Quote
Takeshi Yamato wrote:Can you be more specific? Which shield tanking ships are you talking about?
Havent you noticed these armor tanked sleipnirs, drakes, maelstroms and cyclones around? 
Oh wait...
So lets see :
Shield tanked hyperion, yeah, ive seen it alot of times. Armor tanked maelstrom, hm, never.
Shield tanked brutix, thats more cookie cutter than dual mar or 1600rt brutix. Armor tanked cyclone... hm, never.
Shield tanked myrm - used to be very popular after te buff. Armor tanked drake, ehm, nope.
Shield tanked astarte, i think ive seen few, not that much, but im sure ive never seen armor tanked sleipnir.
CCPs conclusion from that - shield tanks are weak and not used enough, lets make new shield booster combined with cap booster that will provide massive active tank while being immune to neuts, without sig radius drawback and with fitting generous enough to fit oversized version or even multiple asbs on most ships. 
|
Xuixien
Rifterlings
Ushra'Khan
98
|
Posted - 2012.08.08 21:14:00 -
[126] - Quote
Seishi Maru wrote:Xuixien wrote:When armor-bonused armor-tanking ships are slaping on an ASBs because it's better than their traditional armor tank, there's obviously an issue somewhere. you mean as the shield tanking ships were fitting 1600 plates for YEARS? Double standards anyone?
You sound so bitter.
Rabble Rabble!! |
Xuixien
Rifterlings
Ushra'Khan
98
|
Posted - 2012.08.08 21:21:00 -
[127] - Quote
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:Takeshi Yamato wrote:Can you be more specific? Which shield tanking ships are you talking about? Havent you noticed these armor tanked sleipnirs, drakes, maelstroms and cyclones around? Oh wait... So lets see : Shield tanked hyperion, yeah, ive seen it alot of times. Armor tanked maelstrom, hm, never. Shield tanked brutix, thats more cookie cutter than dual mar or 1600rt brutix. Armor tanked cyclone... hm, never. Shield tanked myrm - used to be very popular after te buff. Armor tanked drake, ehm, nope. Shield tanked astarte, i think ive seen few, not that much, but im sure ive never seen armor tanked sleipnir. CCPs conclusion from that - shield tanks are weak and not used enough, lets make new shield booster combined with cap booster that will provide massive active tank while being immune to neuts, without sig radius drawback and with fitting generous enough to fit oversized version or even multiple asbs on most ships.
CCP is so smrt.
Rabble Rabble!! |
Terminator56
The 8th Tribe Seraphim
Dragoons.
7
|
Posted - 2012.08.08 21:50:00 -
[128] - Quote
Lili Lu wrote:Terminator56 wrote:ASBs are the best thing that has happend to shield tanking in a long time; they actually made shield tanking relevant and widely used. Stop bitching because you are so terribad at PVP and can't learn to kite/counter. Neuts may not stop an ASB, but they will stop their active hardeners which will drastically reduce their tank. Sorry, I haven't read the OP, so don't know what the thread was originally about. Started reading from the end of the thread here. But your post made me immediately think of some questions. Before the ASB, shield tanking wasn't already in favor? Have you been looking at the eve-kill top 20? Mostly been shield tanking ships there for a while. This month is even more exagerated http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20 Maybe some of the Oracles and Scorpions had plates. But probably half were shield fit. Last regular armor tanker on the list was the Abbadon. Yet even they appear to be falling out of favor. CCP did not have a shield tanking problem. They had an active tanking problem. But really what's wrong with that. It's absurd to think any one ship should be active tanking a bunch of enemy ships. Poeple should be fleeted and using remote repping anyway as team play. And of the two active tanking modes, active shield tanking was already more viable. So it is a laugh that they felt the need to introduce ASBs. Meanwhile armor got a worthless adaptive hardener. This game will continue to be shield exclusive if they don't make some adjustments.
Sorry by shield tanking i meant shield active tanking. Shield passive tanking was always popular cause of the drake. Armor active tanking is still viable, have you tried a triple rep myrm :D? |
Generals4
1021
|
Posted - 2012.08.08 21:55:00 -
[129] - Quote
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:Takeshi Yamato wrote:Can you be more specific? Which shield tanking ships are you talking about? Havent you noticed these armor tanked sleipnirs, drakes, maelstroms and cyclones around? Oh wait... So lets see : Shield tanked hyperion, yeah, ive seen it alot of times. Armor tanked maelstrom, hm, never. Shield tanked brutix, thats more cookie cutter than dual mar or 1600rt brutix. Armor tanked cyclone... hm, never. Shield tanked myrm - used to be very popular after te buff. Armor tanked drake, ehm, nope. Shield tanked astarte, i think ive seen few, not that much, but im sure ive never seen armor tanked sleipnir. CCPs conclusion from that - shield tanks are weak and not used enough, lets make new shield booster combined with cap booster that will provide massive active tank while being immune to neuts, without sig radius drawback and with fitting generous enough to fit oversized version or even multiple asbs on most ships.
Ooooh yes an armor tanked drake... So a ship with extremely crap mobility and crap dps? Could work as bait and nothing else. I guess you could fill those free mid slots with 4 TP's or Webs (well actually 4 webs could be fun against frigs)
Maybe it's because of the usability of mids & lows and the design of ships that armor tanking a shield tank ship is often extremely stupid?
-Death is nothing, but to live defeated and inglorious is to die daily. |
Lili Lu
334
|
Posted - 2012.08.08 22:32:00 -
[130] - Quote
Terminator56 wrote: Sorry by shield tanking i meant shield active tanking. Shield passive tanking was always popular cause of the drake. Armor active tanking is still viable, have you tried a triple rep myrm :D?
No because it's stupid. The grid requirements for 3 MAR and 2 cap boosters bite into your mobility and dps potential too harshly. Maybe someone gets a kick out of using this for station docking games, but I do not see tripple rep Myrms on killboards. So for 5 dedicated slots not counting the resists v one for an asb (or 2 if you double up the asbs) assuming they tank a similar amount you would still think the expenditure in fitting costs and slot costs fair?
Nope not at all. Additionally, you point to one ship that can construct a ridiculous comedy fit that really is not practicle and compare that to widespread usage of asbs, by almost any ship that shield tanks, and even those that have more lows, and even bonuses for armor tanking, and somehow argue that active armor is ok in the game atm? |
Moonlit Raid
State War Academy
Caldari State
29
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 02:34:00 -
[131] - Quote
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:Takeshi Yamato wrote:Can you be more specific? Which shield tanking ships are you talking about? Havent you noticed these armor tanked sleipnirs, drakes, maelstroms and cyclones around? Oh wait... So lets see : Shield tanked hyperion, yeah, ive seen it alot of times. Armor tanked maelstrom, hm, never. Shield tanked brutix, thats more cookie cutter than dual mar or 1600rt brutix. Armor tanked cyclone... hm, never. Shield tanked myrm - used to be very popular after te buff. Armor tanked drake, ehm, nope. Shield tanked astarte, i think ive seen few, not that much, but im sure ive never seen armor tanked sleipnir. CCPs conclusion from that - shield tanks are weak and not used enough, lets make new shield booster combined with cap booster that will provide massive active tank while being immune to neuts, without sig radius drawback and with fitting generous enough to fit oversized version or even multiple asbs on most ships.
So what you're really saying is shield tank ships don't have enough low slots? And armour tanks have too many mid slots? |
Katalci
SniggWaffe
YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
120
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 07:13:00 -
[132] - Quote
so letting solo guys tank small gangs for long enough to kill one of them is killing solo PvP, this is completely logical |
Lugalzagezi666
49
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 10:57:00 -
[133] - Quote
Moonlit Raid wrote:Lugalzagezi666 wrote:Takeshi Yamato wrote:Can you be more specific? Which shield tanking ships are you talking about? Havent you noticed these armor tanked sleipnirs, drakes, maelstroms and cyclones around? Oh wait... So lets see : Shield tanked hyperion, yeah, ive seen it alot of times. Armor tanked maelstrom, hm, never. Shield tanked brutix, thats more cookie cutter than dual mar or 1600rt brutix. Armor tanked cyclone... hm, never. Shield tanked myrm - used to be very popular after te buff. Armor tanked drake, ehm, nope. Shield tanked astarte, i think ive seen few, not that much, but im sure ive never seen armor tanked sleipnir. CCPs conclusion from that - shield tanks are weak and not used enough, lets make new shield booster combined with cap booster that will provide massive active tank while being immune to neuts, without sig radius drawback and with fitting generous enough to fit oversized version or even multiple asbs on most ships. So what you're really saying is shield tank ships don't have enough low slots? And armour tanks have too many mid slots?
Oh, really? Not enough lows? Too many mids?
Lets see...
Hyperion has 5 mids for shield tank - many shield fits around (including active even before asbs), maelstrom has 5 lows for armor tank - NOT A SINGLE armor fit around.
Brutix has 4 mids for shield tank - almost all brutixes are shield tanked (they were even before asbs), cyclone has 5 lows for armor tank - never seen a single cyclone armor tank.
Myrm... it has more lows than mids, armor rep bonus and there are still more shield tanked myrms out there.
And so on...
Shield tanking was always better in solo/small gang, exactly like kiting ships were always better than useless plated bricks - and now is shield tanking so good, that if you are not flying asb fit ship, you are hindering yourself. And every ship that cannot use oversized asb or dual asb with reasonable fit, just dropped into B category for anything involving solo/small gang warfare.
And now we got shield booster with integrated cap booster immune to neuts giving even more hp/s than standard shield booster and all that with MUCH lower fitting needs... way to go ccp, gg.
Katalci wrote:so letting solo guys tank small gangs for long enough to kill one of them is killing solo PvP, this is completely logical
Yeah, and the pilots in the small gang certainly wont be fitting asbs because it tanks more, requires less slots, less pg/cpu, doesnt slow you down or bloat your sig and leaves more room for gank. |
Vizvig
Savage Blizzard
Argon Federation
6
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 12:30:00 -
[134] - Quote
First pvp fitting rule: no reps in pvp.
Oh yes, it is obsolete |
Moonlit Raid
State War Academy
Caldari State
29
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 14:29:00 -
[135] - Quote
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:Moonlit Raid wrote:
So what you're really saying is shield tank ships don't have enough low slots? And armour tanks have too many mid slots?
Oh, really? Not enough lows? Too many mids? Lets see... Hyperion has 5 mids for shield tank - many shield fits around (including active even before asbs), maelstrom has 5 lows for armor tank - NOT A SINGLE armor fit around. Brutix has 4 mids for shield tank - almost all brutixes are shield tanked (they were even before asbs), cyclone has 5 lows for armor tank - never seen a single cyclone armor tank. Myrm... it has more lows than mids, armor rep bonus and there are still more shield tanked myrms out there. And so on...
People are just choosing gank over tank. damage upgrades are all low slot so even if an armor ship could tank more with armor than shield the user might just want to hit harder. Maybe mid slots that adjust weapon damage would bring more people round to using armor. I don't think it's so much it's being used because it's the better tank but because it free's up low slots for weapon upgrades. |
Xuixien
Rifterlings
Ushra'Khan
99
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 14:47:00 -
[136] - Quote
So no one has been able to explain why I should fit my frigate with an ASB over an MSE - I mean after all, if they give the "same amount of HP" and everything, why not just use the MSE hm?
Rabble Rabble!! |
Lugalzagezi666
52
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 15:22:00 -
[137] - Quote
Moonlit Raid wrote:People are just choosing gank over tank. damage upgrades are all low slot so even if an armor ship could tank more with armor than shield the user might just want to hit harder. Maybe mid slots that adjust weapon damage would bring more people round to using armor. I don't think it's so much it's being used because it's the better tank but because it free's up low slots for weapon upgrades.
They are choosing gank AND tank and only way to do this is asb. Active armor is completely out of the game considering you need to give up damage mods, but also additional ewar - because you need to fit cap boosters. Not to mention you also lose alot of pg/cpu trying to build active armor tank comparable to asbs.
Xuixien wrote:So no one has been able to explain why I should fit my frigate with an ASB over an MSE - I mean after all, if they give the "same amount of HP" and everything, why not just use the MSE hm?
Med asb gives more hp overall, doesnt have sig radius penalty, is affected by blue pill/crystals and needs significantly less pg to fit (= higher tier guns, increased cpu can be easily reduced again by using iffa, faint scram, fleeting web etc.). For me it was enough to refit all my frigs that used to fit mse to masbs (jag, hawk, harpy, merlin...). |
Seishi Maru
doMAL S.A.
43
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 17:08:00 -
[138] - Quote
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:Takeshi Yamato wrote:Can you be more specific? Which shield tanking ships are you talking about? Havent you noticed these armor tanked sleipnirs, drakes, maelstroms and cyclones around? Oh wait... So lets see : Shield tanked hyperion, yeah, ive seen it alot of times. Armor tanked maelstrom, hm, never. Shield tanked brutix, thats more cookie cutter than dual mar or 1600rt brutix. Armor tanked cyclone... hm, never. Shield tanked myrm - used to be very popular after te buff. Armor tanked drake, ehm, nope. Shield tanked astarte, i think ive seen few, not that much, but im sure ive never seen armor tanked sleipnir. CCPs conclusion from that - shield tanks are weak and not used enough, lets make new shield booster combined with cap booster that will provide massive active tank while being immune to neuts, without sig radius drawback and with fitting generous enough to fit oversized version or even multiple asbs on most ships.
During the age of AOE DD maelstroms were using 1600 plates.. standard fit. Tempests (that were openly credited to be shiedl tankers.. so much taht we had to beg so they woulsd get their armor and shield HP swaped |
Pink Marshmellow
Caucasian Culture Club
Transmission Lost
38
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 18:46:00 -
[139] - Quote
Active shield tanking was no doubt superior to active armor tanking, but buffer armor tank is superior to buffer shield tank. Hence Armor gets Slaves and Shield gets Crystals(does not apply to capitals but slaves do)
Active shield tanking before ASB's were not really viable nor fantastic. To make them viable required you to invest hundreds of millions or billions in faction/deadspace modules/implants/drugs/fleet booster/ship bonus to make them actually viable. Not to mention active shield tanking required cap boosters that removed a midslot that could have been used for hardeners or shield boost amp.
Unpimped shield active tanking was not great, even worse for active armor tanking. The most of the times. all they did was slow
the amount of dps done to your miniscule amount of hitpoints, leading to your slightly slower, but still inevitable demise.
ASB are the much needed additions to the previously rather lame active tanking for pvp. It works well for solo and fairly small gang work, but will fail miserably in a fleet engagement.
ASB tanked ships typically have no additional buffer to their hitpoints, you can simply alpha strike the ship.
Active tank excels in solo/small gang, Buffer tank excels in fleet fights. Where shields and armor excel at respectively.
Homogenizing tanks makes for a very boring and dumb game. |
Xuixien
Rifterlings
Ushra'Khan
99
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 19:06:00 -
[140] - Quote
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:Med asb gives more hp overall, doesnt have sig radius penalty, is affected by blue pill/crystals and needs significantly less pg to fit (= higher tier guns, increased cpu can be easily reduced again by using iffa, faint scram, fleeting web etc.). For me it was enough to refit all my frigs that used to fit mse to masbs (jag, hawk, harpy, merlin...).
Why not just buff MSE's a bit then. Seems like a lot of hassle.
Also no sig radius penalty on shields is stupid. If you want low sig, go armor or go home.
Rabble Rabble!! |
Lugalzagezi666
53
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 19:15:00 -
[141] - Quote
Seishi Maru wrote:During the age of AOE DD maelstroms were using 1600 plates.. standard fit. Tempests (that were openly credited to be shiedl tankers.. so much taht we had to beg so they woulsd get their armor and shield HP swaped
That some random dudes in 0.0 blobfests used specific fit to not get insta poped by ******** and removed game mechanics (most likely specifically by avatars as 4 slot shield tank on mael results in same overall ehp as 4 slot armor tank and even then there were at least 2 ships that could have done the job much better), doesnt make armor tanking on that ship relevant. Especially not relevant for solo and small gang warfare that is affected the most by these new modules we are discussing here.
And tempest is actually arguably better shield tanked even it has more lows than mids and higher armor than shield. Exactly as myrm is better shield tanked even it has more lows, higher armor and armor rep bonus.
Pink Marshmellow wrote:Not to mention active shield tanking required cap boosters that removed a midslot that could have been used for hardeners or shield boost amp.
Yeah, because active armor tanking doesnt require cap booster (or even multiple cap boosters) that occupies a midslot that could have been used for scram, web, tc or ewar...
|
Pink Marshmellow
Caucasian Culture Club
Transmission Lost
39
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 06:29:00 -
[142] - Quote
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:Pink Marshmellow wrote:Not to mention active shield tanking required cap boosters that removed a midslot that could have been used for hardeners or shield boost amp. Yeah, because active armor tanking doesnt require cap booster (or even multiple cap boosters) that occupies a midslot that could have been used for scram, web, tc or ewar...
The loss of a midslot to cap boosters causes a direct loss of tank on the ship. You also forget that shield ships must also fit utility as well.
Armor tanked ships can afford to to use a cap booster since mids are for just utility.
Shield tanking however must be able to squeeze in tank AND utility into those midslots. Most shield ships have less midslots than Armor ships have low slots.
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Lugalzagezi666
53
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 08:50:00 -
[143] - Quote
You dont really understand pvp mechanics of this game marshmalow buddy, do you?
Ewar and utility from mid slots directly translates into projected and tanked dps of the ship. And with new ancilary boosters shield tanking effectively got at least +1 free mid and loads of free fitting over armor tanks. Not to say that tank is immune to neuts and actually tanks better... |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
369
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 14:10:00 -
[144] - Quote
LOL I just saw an ancilliary shield boosted myrm kill a drake and a armor repping Myrm. Thsi clearly shows that these things perfectly balanced next to armor repairers.!  |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
528
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 15:39:00 -
[145] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:LOL I just saw an ancilliary shield boosted myrm kill a drake and a armor repping Myrm. This clearly shows that these things perfectly balanced next to armor repairers.!
I saw an iteron kill a megathron. That proves iterons are overpowered.
But ok asbs are a bit op.
I just don't really care about all these ship and module "balancing" concerns. Once statistics show everyone is using a asb ccp will nerf them. In the meantime I will exploit... I mean use them. What I don't want is all the modules to be the same for the sake of "balance."
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Lugalzagezi666
55
|
Posted - 2012.08.10 18:35:00 -
[146] - Quote
Cearain wrote: In the meantime I will exploit... I mean use them.
Im already looking forward to fly only ships able to fit oversized/multiple asbs for next year (or more). Also Im looking forward for future fights where I will spend first minute (if Im lucky) of the fight shooting ships in godmode. |
Lili Lu
335
|
Posted - 2012.08.11 20:04:00 -
[147] - Quote
Cearain wrote: But ok asbs are a bit op.
I just don't really care about all these ship and module "balancing" concerns. Once statistics show everyone is using a asb ccp will nerf them. In the meantime I will exploit... I mean use them. What I don't want is all the modules to be the same for the sake of "balance."
This unfortunately is not true. A more accurate statment would be 3 years after statistics show everyone is using asb CCP will make statments about nerfing them a year or more later   |
San Severina
Hoplite Brigade
16
|
Posted - 2012.08.12 03:25:00 -
[148] - Quote
Dynast wrote:ma perke wrote:that is because for now it is only you using it, as soon as everybody starts using it you want be able to kill anything solo Everybody is already using it. Really, I don't see the fuss. If anything needs fixed it's the terrible ECM perma-stunning in this game.
couldn't agree more, it's a broken mechanic. |
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
32
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 01:33:00 -
[149] - Quote
ASB isn't OP. People are just not used to seeing anything but brick buffer being viable.
Kids are getting owned by crystal set, strong drugs, and gang boosted active tanks and think that ASBs are OP.
When the guy invests over 2.5bil in implants and alts, I think he might be a tad bit strong. Make sense? |
Sandra Buldock
the united
Negative Ten.
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 16:18:00 -
[150] - Quote
I feel the need to point out how absurd all of this EFT warrior/troll/WoW/wtf ever else crap is. EHP is the name of the game. If you have your EHP eaten between cycles (XLASB) all the active rep in the world won't help you. You will never see these in med to large fleet fights due to the many advantages of remote rep buffer fleets over burst or sustained active tanks. For those of you complaining about the "OP reps with no cap", fit alpha and kill ASB ships as they have no buffer. There is a counter to every fit. Find it and melt faces. This is not an OP module, but good luck getting it nerfed so that you can go back to having frig fights out front of stations in the same old fits you've spun in the station for years. |
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