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Super Carrier........ Proliferation

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Kuranei	Posted - 2010.08.21 16:26:00 - [1] ok I ve read about the recent events and witness the super carrier power on sisi. carriers and dreads are now obsolete, was this CCPs intention? no longer will there be dreads or carriers trying to be fielded, But these OMGWTFPWN mobiles. one forum had claims that 75+ SC were fielded how do u counter that much firepower? One of those things can kill a carrier in under 3mins 6 can instant pop one. They can tank a twenty man fleet for ages and field 20 fighters or Bombers (wow) has none of the drawbacks of the short jump range, tracking problem dreads but all the perks of a carrier with the fire power to go toe to toe with a titan or small fleet. So what now, how do u rebalance this as to make the field somewhat level again ...or its it hypothetically speaking level ? As I see it now....Some one needs to start keeping track of how many of these things are in game..because they are they new weapon of choice.
Dr Karsun Gallente	Posted - 2010.08.21 18:06:00 - [2] They cost 20b to buy, another few bil to fit properly... Plus require the 2 months longer training than a normal carrier (to use bombers you need fighters 5, so like 2 months)... If you lose one, you can cry to your pillow. If you kill one, you can cheerfuly go to a pub and have a beer. To counter 75 you drop your own 150 and you'r fine :) You say it's a problem because there are too many of them, so you claim they are easily accessible. Supercarriers are weapons of huge alliances. Just join NC or SC and blob with them :) I assure you, you will see more titans there on the battlefield in each battle than electronic attack frigates :P
Goose99	Posted - 2010.08.21 18:31:00 - [3] Originally by: Dr Karsun They cost 20b to buy, another few bil to fit properly... Plus require the 2 months longer training than a normal carrier (to use bombers you need fighters 5, so like 2 months)... If you lose one, you can cry to your pillow. If you kill one, you can cheerfuly go to a pub and have a beer. To counter 75 you drop your own 150 and you'r fine :) You say it's a problem because there are too many of them, so you claim they are easily accessible. Supercarriers are weapons of huge alliances. Just join NC or SC and blob with them :) I assure you, you will see more titans there on the battlefield in each battle than electronic attack frigates :P I think it's referring to balancing, compared upward to titans, downward toward dreads. You get extra pwn per isk from moms those days. Basically, 20 bil is not high enough, and 2 month extra is not long enough, for what it can do. Eve has been around for a long time, carebear farming equipment and methods sharpened as new content and tools were added. 20 bil is not a lot, even for a single player, not to mention an alliance. In fact, 20 bil is roughly equivalent to 3 or 4 highsec pimpboats. Cost is no longer a barrier in getting a mom, as it used to be, thus they're proliferating now that they've been made OP, partly unintentionally. The result is everyone is getting one to what amounts to a zero sum game. The more common a ship is used, the bigger its impact is on eve, and the more carefully it needs to be balanced.
Roboplegic Amarr	Posted - 2010.08.21 19:16:00 - [4] solution - open up jove ships to the players
Shurken Ramir	Posted - 2010.08.21 19:48:00 - [5] Originally by: Roboplegic solution - open up jove ships to the players best idea ever
Saelie	Posted - 2010.08.21 22:02:00 - [6] I'd like to start by saying I don't own a mothership, and probably wouldn't want one. They seem like a bit of a hassle without the obligatory storage alt that most supercapital pilots possess. I'm not arguing for or against either side here, I'm just putting forth a question. Now I have a very simple way to determine whether or not something is overpowered. I ask myself, what are its effective (IE, likely to win or break even) counters, and how practical are those counters. If a ship/strategy's only practical, effective counter is itself, it is overpowered. This simple little maxim held true with the nano-nerf, as it was widely-agreed that the only counter to a nanofleet was a bigger nanofleet. It held true with ECM - Whoever had more Falcons won, since Falcons were the only thing that could neutralize other Falcons reliably. It even holds true in other games - Generally, not long after a skill/unit/tactic reaches this level in a PvP environment, it gets nerfed. So, let's apply it here. Note that for these purposes, running away is considered a defeat, as you inflict no damage and lose ground to the enemy. What are the practical, effective counters to a mothership? To a group of motherships?
Avion Saberis Gallente	Posted - 2010.08.22 01:44:00 - [7] In my thinking, how many players out there have a Mom? How often do you see a fleet of Moms coming at you? Only the big alliences use Moms in masses. You might find a corp or a small allience using one or two Moms, but your more then likely going to see more carriers and dreads in their fleet anyway. Meh, i'm not really for or against them cause i rarely get to see them myself. I mean if you thinks thats a bit over the top, how about a Ragnarok going 253m/s. Now thats over the top. lol ------------------------------------------- I like to hide, then when the right moment comes, i go pew, pew, pew, then i go back to hiding, :)
SurrenderMonkey	Posted - 2010.08.22 04:50:00 - [8] Originally by: Saelie I'd like to start by saying I don't own a mothership, and probably wouldn't want one. They seem like a bit of a hassle without the obligatory storage alt that most supercapital pilots possess. I'm not arguing for or against either side here, I'm just putting forth a question. Now I have a very simple way to determine whether or not something is overpowered. I ask myself, what are its effective (IE, likely to win or break even) counters, and how practical are those counters. If a ship/strategy's only practical, effective counter is itself, it is overpowered. This simple little maxim held true with the nano-nerf, as it was widely-agreed that the only counter to a nanofleet was a bigger nanofleet. It held true with ECM - Whoever had more Falcons won, since Falcons were the only thing that could neutralize other Falcons reliably. It even holds true in other games - Generally, not long after a skill/unit/tactic reaches this level in a PvP environment, it gets nerfed. So, let's apply it here. Note that for these purposes, running away is considered a defeat, as you inflict no damage and lose ground to the enemy. What are the practical, effective counters to a mothership? To a group of motherships? This person is smart and people should listen to him/her. And, yeah, it turns out the practical, effective counter to a mom fleet is MOAR MOMS. The, "Okay, but how many people really have them?" argument is bunk. First of all, quite a few people have them at this point, and, secondly, that number is steadily increasing - so even if the fact that not everyone has them were a logical argument for Moms not being a problem, it would actually mean "They're not a problem... yet." --------------- Faction-Militia:Player-Alliance::Newbie-corp:Player-corp
XIRUSPHERE Gallente THE DISC	Posted - 2010.08.22 05:47:00 - [9] Don't fret too much, it would seem quite a few SC are relegated to being LOL PVE fit out in the depth's of 0.0 by people who can't quite understand diminishing returns when it comes to the ISK spent towards the extra damage. If people are determined to fly a giant dinner plate with a flashing neon sign saying " put me out of my misery " when two carriers could do it faster and cheaper I guess more power to them. Keep those ship builders busy.
Kuranei	Posted - 2010.08.22 21:53:00 - [10] dinner plate, not really unless you have a nice size fleet waiting in the shadows, a mom is far from a easy meal. It has the capabilty to spit out 20 fighters..that is instant poppage for everything smaller than a cap. It can tank a substantial amount. A carrier has maybe 1.2mil HP, A mom has 3mil. I believe the one who said if the counter to a particular thing is its self..Then that thing is overpowered. thks for the responses

Commoner Caldari The Tuskers	Posted - 2010.08.22 22:17:00 - [11] Well historically speaking, balancing usually means allowing a few of the lower classed ships being able to kill the "higher" ranking ship, i.e. a few frigs killing a cruiser, a few cruisers killing a bs and a few bs killing a carrier. Dunno how that applies to supercarriers.
Alara IonStorm Agent-Orange	Posted - 2010.08.22 22:22:00 - [12] Originally by: Commoner Well historically speaking, balancing usually means allowing a few of the lower classed ships being able to kill the "higher" ranking ship, i.e. a few frigs killing a cruiser, a few cruisers killing a bs and a few bs killing a carrier. Dunno how that applies to supercarriers. Simple, make it so 4-5 Dreads can take out a MOM -- Tactical Responder who is Organized and a Leading-edge Linguist
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2010.08.23 01:05:00 - [13] The mechanisms for breaking RR gangs of any size are to break their target lock, suck their capacitor dry, or bump them out of range so they can't get their RR. If a ship is immune to EWAR, it should also be immune to logistics. Give caps and supercaps a high sensor strength, targeting range and capacitor. Allow significant buffs when sieged to provide higher resistance to jamming, Nos/neut and other EWAR, but don't let them be immune. Add a new type of EWAR which reduces drone control value or drone bandwidth ie: each "Drone Interdiction Interface" system deprives the drone boat of one drone, or 50Mbps worth of drone control. Based on bandwidth would allow someone to completely shut down a Dominix, which is probably a little harsh. Removing one drone means a battleship fleet can stop a supercarrier using its fighters/bombers. And just for lulz, the Drone Interdiction Interface should be usable on rookie ships, so a supercarrier can be taken down by a fleet of a thousand velators ;) -- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel]
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.08.23 03:50:00 - [14] Originally by: Dr Karsun ...Supercarriers are weapons of huge alliances... This is where your argument falls flat on its face. While true that it was the underlying design idea, the easy access to ISK has made super-capitals and MoMs especially the property of Joe the Dumber .. MoM's are easily attainable by individuals, hoardable by corporations and spammable by alliances Once they are so common that you can't enter any large'ish engagement without running into them their higher-than-normal power is no longer justified. How/What to change in order for them to still be fun and not useless POS ornaments like before I don't know .. they are awesome but scale even worse than Titan's due to being dirt cheap (comparatively).
Kuranei	Posted - 2010.08.24 01:32:00 - [15] The post above was well said. I do not believe there will be a fix to them anytime soon. Just look how long it took them to nerf bat the aoe effect of the titan. When they did hit it, they made them almost useless.. So now what CCP, a response of some sort would be appreciated, I know uyou guys monitor these forums very closely
Darth Felin	Posted - 2010.08.24 11:19:00 - [16] Originally by: Kuranei The post above was well said. I do not believe there will be a fix to them anytime soon. Just look how long it took them to nerf bat the aoe effect of the titan. When they did hit it, they made them almost useless.. So now what CCP, a response of some sort would be appreciated, I know uyou guys monitor these forums very closely They are not useless, far from it. And they were used after dominion. But soon everybody noticed that Moms are even more effective for a fraction of the cost and new "great arm race" began.
Daedalus II	Posted - 2010.08.24 15:27:00 - [17] Edited by: Daedalus II on 24/08/2010 15:27:56 Suggestion: Remove mothership fighter ability, and maybe make bombers weaker (structurally, not damage). That way a fleet of smaller ships could take on its bombers and if not kill it at least disarm it. What to do against 20 T2 warriors I don't know though... maybe limit the amounts of smaller drones it's allowed to field, or just smartbomb them? This would make a mothership a more exclusive anti-capital ship, instead of an anti-everything ship.
Terror Wheels	Posted - 2010.08.31 20:57:00 - [18]
Kabark	Posted - 2010.08.31 22:56:00 - [19] Originally by: SurrenderMonkey "They're not a problem... yet." It's just like global warming, psh like that will ever happen.
Fournone	Posted - 2010.08.31 23:32:00 - [20] Edited by: Fournone on 31/08/2010 23:33:09 Originally by: Terror Wheels To the "a SC have 3mil HP", no a good fittet NYX has 36mil and a AEON can get to aprox 70milHP. Dang. Thats alot of hit points. In dominion the dreadnought recieved a tracking nerf since they were used primaraly for anti-cap warfare (easily possible with a TP). Maybe give the dreads back thier tracking or make some sort of anticap ship other than the SC. If moms are a problem then CCP will fix them (in 18 months ).

Illfindyou	Posted - 2010.09.01 01:01:00 - [21] Originally by: Daedalus II [maybe make bombers weaker ... This would make a mothership a more exclusive anti-capital ship, instead of an anti-everything ship. I agree - The key to balancing super carriers is its fighter bombers. Titans also have huge amounts of EHP but aren't that effective as combat platforms. The key is finding a nice midpoint to using a mothership as a carrier, dread and titan killer but impotent against fleets of BS.
DJ Kento Minmatar Exiles Port of Call Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2010.09.01 02:21:00 - [22] Edited by: DJ Kento on 01/09/2010 02:21:41 Edited by: DJ Kento on 01/09/2010 02:21:15 The only 'solution' (if you think something needs to be changed) is to remove supercarriers and titans from the game entirely. They were poor balancing choices. If CCP ever thought that titans and supers would remain the toys of a priveleged few and to be used only in huge battles at the turn of the tide of a campaign then they were seriously wrong.
ImCoolerThanYou	Posted - 2010.09.01 05:07:00 - [23] Originally by: Dr Karsun They cost 20b to buy, another few bil to fit properly... Since the amount I pay for it + skill training time = balance, can I pay 30 bil and train some other skill up to 5 so that mine cant be targeted?
SFX Bladerunner Minmatar Black Serpent Technologies R.A.G.E	Posted - 2010.09.01 09:01:00 - [24] Originally by: Darth Felin Originally by: Kuranei The post above was well said. I do not believe there will be a fix to them anytime soon. Just look how long it took them to nerf bat the aoe effect of the titan. When they did hit it, they made them almost useless.. So now what CCP, a response of some sort would be appreciated, I know uyou guys monitor these forums very closely They are not useless, far from it. And they were used after dominion. But soon everybody noticed that Moms are even more effective for a fraction of the cost and new "great arm race" began. They are BECOMING useless though. As MOMS take over the role of general capitals and dreads/carriers are no longer fielded in fleets the titan's doomsday becomes somewhat of a useless thing as it cannot compete to the isk investment/pwnage factor of a mothership. (aka: 3 moms cost about roughly the same as 1 titan, but are much more usefull in fleet engagements) At that point the only redeeming factor of a titan would be the jump-portal.. and having a 60-100bil ship's primary function in EVE be that of a mobile jumpbridge is hardly cost-efficient. __________________________________________________ History is much like an endless waltz, the three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever..
Valandril Caldari Ex-Mortis	Posted - 2010.09.01 13:16:00 - [25] Originally by: SFX Bladerunner Originally by: Darth Felin Originally by: Kuranei The post above was well said. I do not believe there will be a fix to them anytime soon. Just look how long it took them to nerf bat the aoe effect of the titan. When they did hit it, they made them almost useless.. So now what CCP, a response of some sort would be appreciated, I know uyou guys monitor these forums very closely They are not useless, far from it. And they were used after dominion. But soon everybody noticed that Moms are even more effective for a fraction of the cost and new "great arm race" began. They are BECOMING useless though. As MOMS take over the role of general capitals and dreads/carriers are no longer fielded in fleets the titan's doomsday becomes somewhat of a useless thing as it cannot compete to the isk investment/pwnage factor of a mothership. (aka: 3 moms cost about roughly the same as 1 titan, but are much more usefull in fleet engagements) At that point the only redeeming factor of a titan would be the jump-portal.. and having a 60-100bil ship's primary function in EVE be that of a mobile jumpbridge is hardly cost-efficient. Then you never utilized titans jump-portal right. It's dream come true of every fc and logistic director (especially pre jump freighter). Recruit me if you dare
Nuts Nougat Perkone	Posted - 2010.09.01 14:12:00 - [26] Originally by: Valandril Then you never utilized titans jump-portal right. It's dream come true of every fc and logistic director (especially pre jump freighter). I, too, like to spend enough cash to buy a continent or three on a short bus. ---
Natasha Nikolaev	Posted - 2010.09.03 18:48:00 - [27] supercap build times need to be doubled (or even tripled), for starters. RR range bonus on SCs needs to be cut in half or possibly eliminated.


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