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Guvante
Dreddit
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Posted - 2010.09.19 05:47:00 -
[31]
I am sorry, but there is no chance that someone received that kind of benefit without knowing.
That is like being given a $100 bill that is still part of a full 8.5x11 sheet of paper, taking it to the bank, and claiming that you had no clue.
I could see missing a minor DPS increase, but you know as well as I do what kind of benefits that exploit created. |
Opertone
Caldari Metalworks Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2010.09.19 06:30:00 -
[32]
BAN hammer lift!
NERF hammer hit the target...
IT
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Abdiel Kavash
Caldari Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2010.09.19 06:44:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Abdiel Kavash on 19/09/2010 06:45:23
Originally by: Pohbis If CCP bans anyone over this. They're pathetic.
They introduced wormholes with effects to cause drastic changes in module behavior. The entire goal was to give players interesting options and challenges, based on the particular wormhole effect.
Turns out they didn't update their formulas to deal with the extremes of said effects. CCPs fault. Not the players...
Agreed. I was always under the impression that in modern society retroactive punishment for breaking laws that didn't exist at the time of the crime was a big no-no. If CCP deems this an exploit, they have the right to punish anyone who does this from now on. How is someone supposed to know what exactly will be deemed an exploit at some future point of time, and what is just funky game mechanics?
Several examples: Looting someone's wrecks gives you aggro, salvaging doesn't. A warp bubble can drag you out of warp and several kilometers away even if you didn't pass through it. A ship generating a cynosural field can be pushed in a starbase's forcefield and be protected by it. Without CCP's Word of God, I doubt there is anything that could unquestionably characterize the first two cases as allowed and the third an exploit.
Similarly with reprocessing starbase structures after Tyrannis: CCP acknowledged it was their fault, and fixed the issue. Nobody was banned just because they reprocessed something they shouldn't have. And I am pretty sure that people exploiting this made collectively much more ISK than the corporation in question here. Or, for another example, deep space safe spots. Same story.
Last point: Who exactly do you want to punish? All members of said corporation, even if they never even entered the system in question? Everyone who ever entered the system, even if they never used the affected module? Everyone who ever used the module? Everyone who had the affected module used on them? People who didn't know anything about the previous communication with CCP, and were just told by their CEO to bring that specific fit to battle? In either case a lot of innocents will be affected.
Edit: Disclaimer - I am in no way affiliated with the corporation in question, and I didn't know anything about said game mechanic until it was made public. ___________ EVE is dying! Now for real! |
Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
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Posted - 2010.09.19 07:05:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Abdiel Kavash Edited by: Abdiel Kavash on 19/09/2010 06:45:23
Originally by: Pohbis If CCP bans anyone over this. They're pathetic.
They introduced wormholes with effects to cause drastic changes in module behavior. The entire goal was to give players interesting options and challenges, based on the particular wormhole effect.
Turns out they didn't update their formulas to deal with the extremes of said effects. CCPs fault. Not the players...
stuff
The problem with your musings is, that the guys doing it reported it, so they knew it wasn't working as intended. A GM might have okayed it initially, but now people are saying they got contacted after that and were told to stop expoiting it. All of this is ofcourse hearsay, but it seems they knew it and were told to stop doing it, so there is no retroactive punishing here. Just punishing people who knew they were exploiting, were told they were exploiting and did it anyway. The more advantage they gained using this method, the more likely they will get banhammered and justly so.
The only thing that CCP needs to figure out is who to punish and that should be simple task, although it might take some time. The setups and uses are very distinct for this particular use, so all accounts found using them should be a candidate for the banhammer. This isn't a case of slight alteration of existing function, so mistakes might actually happen. It took specific setups, used in ways it was clearly not meant to function and the affect was obvious to anyone who has ever fitted said systems. It is as clear case of exploiting as you could possibly ever get after item duping. CCP might ignore their actions if it was used in a few separate incidents, but if anything suggests to systematic abuse, most involved will get the banhammer and the corp/alliance might lose a bunch of assets.
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Astarte Efga'ir
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Posted - 2010.09.19 07:06:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Ais Hellia
if the words about submitted petitions and the bug reports and the answers to them are true, the only people who deserve to feel the "banhammer" are ignorant CCP employees that were to deal with the issue
This is not the first time that a small group of players who discovered an exploit and reported it to CCP, never got an answer or were even told it was working as intended. What worries me is that a Senior GM (alledgedly) knew about this issue for a long time and yet told the discoverers it was ok to use it. That is: untill word got out. Then suddenly it is not working as intended anymore,.. but deemed an exploit. So as long as you keep it a secret, it's ok to use it? CCP Fail bigtime.. again.
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.09.19 07:08:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Akita T on 19/09/2010 07:15:23 _
[sarcasm mode toggled to super-heavy-duty]
Originally by: Omega Flames Link to the warning?
Sure, CCP religiously clears up any GM correspondence or references to any exploits until they're fixed from the forums (sometimes even after they're fixed) and they never give out the names of the characters involved in exploits (not even their corp or alliance), but they'd TOTALLY respond to petitions about exploits in the forums directly, or let such petitions and their response be plastered all over the place, or publicly announce "hey, you guys in <corp X>, stop using <exploit Y> or else, oh, and in case you don't know which that one is, it's the one where you <exploit Y detailed description>".
So, yeah, if that warning existed, we could totally link to it because you asked.
Originally by: Abdiel Kavash How is someone supposed to know what exactly will be deemed an exploit at some future point of time, and what is just funky game mechanics?
Gee, I don't know, I found this place where I can sell something but it doesn't disappear from my inventory, I wonder if that could possibly be an exploit if I keep selling... nah, I'll just assume it's not. Hey, there's this other thing where this tiny belt rat keeps instantly reappearing after I kill it, and it always drops high-grade pirate implants, might THAT be an exploit if I keep killing it as long as I can... meh, probably not, I mean, I couldn't possibly presume to know what might be deemed an exploit or not. Wait, this is odd, my shields got 99.9% resists and 1 second recharge time, and every shot I make insta-kills any target... should I be worry that mayb.... ah, screw it, probably not an exploit if I keep using it either.
[/sarcasm mode]
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Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
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Brannor McThife
Caldari Brotherhood of the Ancients
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Posted - 2010.09.19 07:21:00 -
[37]
Agree with Akita.
You have to be a moron to think it's not an exploit.
In real life there are common laws that are not specific. Any reasonable person would easily see this as an exploit. Just like Akita said, the first time you "sin" (cheat), you know it's not right...but do it enough times, and you convince yourself it's ok.
In terms of the law of most modern countries, ignorance is no excuse.
-G
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.09.19 07:32:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Brannor McThife OP is an alt of one of the offenders and is trying to justify his cheating.
GTFO.
I am 99.99% sure that he is in fact not an alt of anyone or anything. You shouldn't let your COAD defense mechanisms take over so easily when you lack proper arguments.
Originally by: Brannor McThife Agree with Akita.
You have to be a moron to think it's not an exploit....
As I understand it the party in question did query the GMs some time ago but CCP chose to ignore it. Probably because it happens in a very limited set of systems so is will never be a widespread issue like manipulating data stream to/from server to vanish from local is (just example of another clear exploit that remains unaddressed). If CCP starts banning without warning as is customary after they themselves dropped the ball ... pretty clear to me who's to blame.
Since issue is only present in a limited set of systems, systems that are not easily accessible, why not build on it and make it true space beyond the frontiers .. create a Bizarro world out there where anything can happen. Effect in question could easily be 'nerfed' by adding some other effect that limits its impact.
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seany1212
The Scowling Men
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Posted - 2010.09.19 07:40:00 -
[39]
The corp involved in this exploit were well aware of what they were doing, they fitted there ships accordingly for battles, had a system with the required effects, had a permanent C6 with which to run sites in once they found one with the right effects and were more than capable of cycling wormholes, the question is how long has it been going on for and how much longer would it have gone on for, how much isk would they have made and how many people could they have removed from W-space if it wasnt brought to light? You guys make squeeky noises when you pop, and that's enough motivation as far as I'm concerned. |
Shirley Serious
Amarr The Khanid Sisters of Athra
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Posted - 2010.09.19 07:46:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Merdaneth a player could even use trigger the issue on his enemies, get logs of the exploit in use and report it to get his enemies hit by the banhammer. Hence my estimation that CCP will be very careful in banning any involved players.
Oh yes, that is going to complicate this hugely. the t1 track-disrupting frigate, that's good enough to put it into effect, isn't it? Create trial alt, use on opposition, forcing them into involuntarily exploiting. Petition them for doing it
Madness
Yes. Yes, I am. |
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Abdiel Kavash
Caldari Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2010.09.19 08:05:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Akita T Gee, I don't know, I found this place where I can sell something but it doesn't disappear from my inventory, I wonder if that could possibly be an exploit if I keep selling... nah, I'll just assume it's not. Hey, there's this other thing where this tiny belt rat keeps instantly reappearing after I kill it, and it always drops high-grade pirate implants, might THAT be an exploit if I keep killing it as long as I can... meh, probably not, I mean, I couldn't possibly presume to know what might be deemed an exploit or not. Wait, this is odd, my shields got 99.9% resists and 1 second recharge time, and every shot I make insta-kills any target... should I be worry that mayb.... ah, screw it, probably not an exploit if I keep using it either.
Hmm, so I put a warp bubble in the middle of nowhere and I pull in people who are warping to some 100km away and probably wouldn't even notice the bubble... hell yeah, let's get some free kills! I can start a research job in a POS, without ever having my expensive BPO in there and risking it being blown up? Cool, let the manufacturers risk 100% of their goods while my assets are completely safe. I can set my PI extractors to 4 day cycles, and they will conveniently reset every downtime, making FREE stuff for me with zero need for maintenance? How cool, FREE stuff is FREE!
(note: I hope that obvious sarcasm is obvious ) ___________ EVE is dying! Now for real! |
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War DarkSide.
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Posted - 2010.09.19 08:58:00 -
[42]
Now that's a total crap.
They knew pretty well what they were doing and they do deserve getting banned. ---[center] Please resize your signature to the maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist |
Omega Flames
Caldari Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse True Reign
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Posted - 2010.09.19 09:05:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 19/09/2010 07:30:25 Originally by: Omega Flames Link to the warning?
Sure, CCP religiously clears up any GM correspondence or references to any exploits until they're fixed from the forums (sometimes even after they're fixed) and they never give out the names of the characters involved in exploits (not even their corp or alliance), but they'd TOTALLY respond to petitions about exploits in the forums directly, or let such petitions and their response be plastered all over the place, or publicly announce "hey, you guys in <corp X>, stop using <exploit Y> or else, oh, and in case you don't know which that one is, it's the one where you <exploit Y detailed description>".
So, yeah, if that warning existed, we could totally link to it because you asked.
Unfortunately that's my point, I've been told there was even a dev blog about it but of course when I want a link to so called dev blog it no longer exists. Even got one guy in my alliance saying he used to be in AHARM (corp history says otherwise, but not worth the effort to argue that with him) No one has proof a GM said anything about this being bannable and if they did contact GM's about it and got told it was ok well cant really ban peps for it now can ya? Besides it really shouldn't even be happening due to stacking penalty's. So apparently there is bad math going on out there ------------------------- "Forsys > WAR Forsys > HUH Forsys > WHAT IS IT GOOD FOR Harry Sunday > loot Forsys > touchT" |
N0N
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Posted - 2010.09.19 09:21:00 -
[44]
Edited by: N0N on 19/09/2010 09:23:17
Originally by: Pohbis If CCP bans anyone over this. They're pathetic.
They introduced wormholes with effects to cause drastic changes in module behavior. The entire goal was to give players interesting options and challenges, based on the particular wormhole effect.
Turns out they didn't update their formulas to deal with the extremes of said effects. CCPs fault. Not the players...
I would agree, if it wasn't for the fact they knew about this months ago.
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HeIIfire11
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Posted - 2010.09.19 10:39:00 -
[45]
All in all look at it this way.
First of all we dont know if the gm said it was ok.
Second..if they dont punish the people doing it,at least those in the killmails..of the pictures on that site,what message will that send?
It will send the message that if you find an exploit..exploit it as long as you can until you get caught,because its ccp's fault.
Wrong message to be bringing accross if you ask me.
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Abdiel Kavash
Caldari Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2010.09.19 10:48:00 -
[46]
Originally by: HeIIfire11 It will send the message that if you find an exploit..exploit it as long as you can until you get caught,because its ccp's fault.
And what message will banninng them send? Don't use any funky-sounding mechanic (see my examples above) because it might be considered an exploit at some point in the future and you might be banned retroactively? Should you petition about anything that sounds out of order? And even if a senior GM says it's okay, you should still not use it because it might be overruled one day?
Deep safe spots are a similar case. Surely when you log off in the middle of a warp, you expect to return to the point where you logged off; or maybe to the warp origin or destination - not a dozen AU away. CCP confirmed this as a real mechanic, however a few weeks (months?) later revoked it and removed the feature and all bookmarks created using it. Did they ban anyone who ever got more than 20AU from the system borders? Did they delete all ships stored in the safespots? Did they compensate for ships lost in fights because the enemy warped in from a DSS completely unexpected?
Let me be clear, I am not advocating abusing bugs and exploits. These should be fixed, or if that is not immediately possible, publicly declared as exploits. But only after the rules are set, you can punish people for breaking them. But retroactive punishment for something that was confirmed as a feature before is bad. Okay? ___________ EVE is dying! Now for real! |
Brannor McThife
Caldari Brotherhood of the Ancients
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Posted - 2010.09.19 10:53:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Brannor McThife on 19/09/2010 10:54:47
Originally by: Abdiel Kavash stuff
What if a GM had actually said it was NOT ok? As it's in a hard-to-get-to place... who's going to check on you?
We're all still waiting for this proof that a GM said it was ok. So far it's all just hearsay. [EDIT} Proof would include a petition and submitted bug report(s).
-G
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.09.19 11:02:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Abdiel Kavash And what message will banninng them send? Don't use any funky-sounding mechanic (see my examples above) because it might be considered an exploit at some point in the future and you might be banned retroactively?
Yes. Sounds like an excellent message, tbh.
Quote: Should you petition about anything that sounds out of order? And even if a senior GM says it's okay, you should still not use it because it might be overruled one day?
Yes.
Quote: But only after the rules are set, you can punish people for breaking them. But retroactive punishment for something that was confirmed as a feature before is bad. Okay?
The rules are set: don't exploit bugs. As for the whole "confirmed as a feature", until I see the wording of the petition and bug reports they handed in, I'm going to flat-out state that no such confirmation exists. They may have asked the GMs about some ill-defined wonky behaviour (leaving out the details that makes it an obvious bug), and gotten that supposed "effects are meant to be use" response, but the value of that response depends entirely on what kind of question they asked.
àand even then, yes, they should have understood that the GMs didn't get the problem, considering what the result of the bug was. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Feilamya
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Posted - 2010.09.19 11:22:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Feilamya on 19/09/2010 11:24:27 This bug should be fixed as soon as possible, but there should not be any consequences for those who have profited from it.
Players discovering and using exploits like this, and other players finding out about it, is part of what keeps the game interesting. It also generates publicity and draws more players to the game. It is in no way "game-breaking" (to cite massively.com), nor has it caused any ireversible damage to the game or the community.
Players who discover and use exploits are obviously more creative than players who don't. And creativity is what keeps a sandbox game interesting. Without it, this would be an incredibly boring game, and CCP would be forced to turn it more and more into WoW in space to prevent losing subscribers. Instead of banning the creative minds of the player base, do something about the ISK farmers.
Also, it would be interesting to see how the residents of this C6 magnetar would look like in a fight against invaders using the same exploit. It would be awesome if they could be kicked out of their system in a "legit" fight before the bug is fixed, rather than by the banhammer. But I understand that the whiny majority sees this differently...
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Abdiel Kavash
Caldari Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2010.09.19 11:28:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Brannor McThife Edited by: Brannor McThife on 19/09/2010 10:54:47
Originally by: Abdiel Kavash stuff
What if a GM had actually said it was NOT ok? As it's in a hard-to-get-to place... who's going to check on you?
We're all still waiting for this proof that a GM said it was ok. So far it's all just hearsay. [EDIT} Proof would include a petition and submitted bug report(s).
-G
Of course, if they were told by a GM not to do it, then I retract my statements. But we have no proof either way so far - I can only base my opinion on what I know. But in that case, I would consider it at the very least polite to inform the community about the bug until it gets fixed. Of course, not post details or anything - just a simple message: "There is currently a bug in game code that under certain circumstances allows X to do Y. This is not intended and will be fixed ASAP. Anyone caught exploiting this will receive a N days ban."
I don't want to accuse anyone, but in the harsh, trustless world of EVE it is not impossible that the corporation's CEO wrote the petition, got a No from the GMs, but actually announced to his members that the answer was Yes and instructed them to use the mechanics. Is it the players' fault then? Should they be banned because they trusted their CEO? (Once again, I am not suggesting that this is what happened.)
Once again, see the treatment of deep safe bookmarks - that was, in my opinion, the best way to treat such a problem. ___________ EVE is dying! Now for real! |
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Shirley Serious
Amarr The Khanid Sisters of Athra
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Posted - 2010.09.19 11:31:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Abdiel Kavash , I would consider it at the very least polite to inform the community about the bug until it gets fixed. Of course, not post details or anything - just a simple message: "There is currently a bug in game code that under certain circumstances allows X to do Y. This is not intended and will be fixed ASAP. Anyone caught exploiting this will receive a N days ban."
There was a news article yesterday, but it was removed.
Yes. Yes, I am. |
Catari Taga
Centre Of Attention Middle of Nowhere
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Posted - 2010.09.19 11:39:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Shirley Serious
Originally by: Abdiel Kavash , I would consider it at the very least polite to inform the community about the bug until it gets fixed. Of course, not post details or anything - just a simple message: "There is currently a bug in game code that under certain circumstances allows X to do Y. This is not intended and will be fixed ASAP. Anyone caught exploiting this will receive a N days ban."
There was a news article yesterday, but it was removed.
Can't wait to read the damage control on that one. We accidentally the news report? There is no exploit? EVE has no bugs?
If it wasn't such a typical CCP blunder I'd have to laugh, but this isn't even surprising me anymore. --
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Shirley Serious
Amarr The Khanid Sisters of Athra
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Posted - 2010.09.19 11:44:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Catari Taga
Originally by: Shirley Serious
There was a news article yesterday, but it was removed.
Can't wait to read the damage control on that one. We accidentally the news report? There is no exploit? EVE has no bugs?
iirc, all it said was: "We have become aware of an issue. We are investigating. We will have more news soon."
Yes. Yes, I am. |
Astarte Efga'ir
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Posted - 2010.09.19 11:46:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Shirley Serious
Originally by: Catari Taga
Originally by: Shirley Serious
There was a news article yesterday, but it was removed.
Can't wait to read the damage control on that one. We accidentally the news report? There is no exploit? EVE has no bugs?
iirc, all it said was: "We have become aware of an issue. We are investigating. We will have more news soon."
The exact message that was removed read:
Quote: It has recently been reported that an issue exists in Class 6 wormholes which allows for an exploit of game mechanics. This is currently being investigated and we hope to have some more details for you as soon as possible. We would advise all players that the use of exploits is not permitted at any time and doing so can result in action being taken as per the Terms of Service.
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Cobalt Sixty
Caldari The Price of Darkness
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Posted - 2010.09.19 12:10:00 -
[55]
I sort of hope they leave the mechanic intact, just for the potential of watching people face-melt each other while trying to dominate the C6 Magnetards.
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Brannor McThife
Caldari Brotherhood of the Ancients
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Posted - 2010.09.19 12:26:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Cobalt Sixty I sort of hope they leave the mechanic intact, just for the potential of watching people face-melt each other while trying to dominate the C6 Magnetards.
That's not the point... they've made billions (trillions?) of ISK exploiting this.
-G
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Abdiel Kavash
Caldari Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2010.09.19 12:47:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Brannor McThife
Originally by: Cobalt Sixty I sort of hope they leave the mechanic intact, just for the potential of watching people face-melt each other while trying to dominate the C6 Magnetards.
That's not the point... they've made billions (trillions?) of ISK exploiting this.
-G
I very much doubt it was trilions. Even assuming this allows them to complete WH sites in half the time needed, it would come out to a few bilions, maybe dozens of bilions. You have to realize that as far as PvE goes, this is not a very big issue; as Sleepers can cross even the maximum targeting range of 250km very easily. The only thing you are left with is 100% damage potential on everything; not that hitting battleships (the only relevant source of income) is any hard.
Starbase structure reprocessing yielded that much in the first few days, and some of the stockpiles will last literally for years. There are market graphs documenting this available to everyone. ___________ EVE is dying! Now for real! |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.09.19 14:01:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Brannor McThife We're all still waiting for this proof that a GM said it was ok. So far it's all just hearsay. [EDIT} Proof would include a petition and submitted bug report(s).
No we are not, because that would be against ToS/EULA.
Originally by: Tippia .... They may have asked the GMs about some ill-defined wonky behaviour...
Errrm, the GMs are supposed to ask clarifying questions if they do not fully understand the situation. Are you suggesting that the GMs are in on it or not capable of doing their jobs properly? Hahahahaha. I have not met anyone outside of political office that was able to spin something so extensively as to leave the huge gap you imply exist in understanding between petitioner-GM.
Originally by: Brannor McThife That's not the point... they've made billions (trillions?) of ISK exploiting this.
How many assaults have been attempted? Since the bug is purely combat oriented any money they make from it must be from loot/ratting .. billions/trillions in loot is a lot. From the SHC description of events I get the distinct impression that no assaults have ever been staged other than the random roam which have zero impact on infrastructure .. the inhabitants were supposedly collapsing all worms going in very fast after they spawned and sleepers are not that hard for organized groups in the first place so doubt the "profit" was anywhere near that.
Speaking of numbers, how many worms are there with Magnetars total? Just how much of a problem is it?
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.09.19 14:12:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Are you suggesting that the GMs are [...] not capable of doing their jobs properly ?
Bingo. That's exactly what everybody is saying, in slightly different words. CCP has already publicly "apologized" for the perceived poor quality of GM training, by explaining that it's next to practically impossible to train a GM in any reasonable amount of time to know everything you might expect a GM to know thanks to the extensive nature of EVE. So, yes, even a senior GM can get some things wrong, and bothering some dev that MIGHT know better for anything that sounds a bit fishy to a GM is not exactly productive either. But of course, from a customer more than used to the customary USA entitlement suite following from the crap adage of "the customer is always right" (hint : hell no, he's usually not anywhere close to right), it might sound like a good idea to double-check and triple-check everything and involve devs into GM work. Sure, the GM training program could be improved, better documentation could be provided to them, and a lot of other things could happen, but that won't happen overnight... and hey, guess what, even players that DID play for years and spent a lot of time getting to know almost every aspect of the game STILL are nowhere close to knowing everything you seem to expect a GM to know, and many more people think they know something that turns out it's wrong. Do YOU think you would make a faultless GM ? I seriously doubt that.
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Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
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Cobalt Sixty
Caldari The Price of Darkness
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Posted - 2010.09.19 14:20:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Brannor McThife
Originally by: Cobalt Sixty I sort of hope they leave the mechanic intact, just for the potential of watching people face-melt each other while trying to dominate the C6 Magnetards.
That's not the point... they've made billions (trillions?) of ISK exploiting this.
-G
My apologies, next time I'll be sure to use the sarcasm font so you get it the first time.
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