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Merdaneth Amarr Sovereign Hospitaller Order of Saint Katherine	Posted - 2010.09.18 19:47:00 - [1] I find the current exploit issue interesting because of the rules implications. Why? Because this exploit has peculiar characteristics. For example, the following things are true of a player that gains an advantage from this 'issue': - He doesn't have to be willing - He doesn't have to do anything special or cooperate in any way - He doesn't have a choice - He might not even be aware The person triggering the issue: - Might not be aware that he is causing the issue - Might trigger the issue as a result of normal and valid gameplay - Doesn't get any (direct) advantage from triggering the issue (in fact, it might give him a disadvantage) As you might be aware, the definition of an exploit in the TOS contains two conditions: 1. It is a bug 2. You use the bug to gain an unfair advantage over other players Anyone triggering this bug doesn't get any advantage himself. The only advantage gained is if the other player is also aware and they have made a deal to share its benefits. Such a deal is hard to prove though. Especially in a game rife with spies, betrayals and all forms of scams and metagame-play a clever player could even use trigger the issue on his enemies, get logs of the exploit in use and report it to get his enemies hit by the banhammer. Hence my estimation that CCP will be very careful in banning any involved players. PS: Please do not go into any detail concerning this issue other than what CCP has already mentioned. Please keep within the TOS. I know, I haven't spoken to any player who isn't yet aware of this issue, but the rules are the rules. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Sader Rykane Amarr Midnight Sentinels Midnight Space Syndicate	Posted - 2010.09.18 19:49:00 - [2] Why not just set negative radians to = 0 problem solved. Stealth patch it tomorrow so we can be done with this thread.
JC Anderson Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2010.09.18 19:50:00 - [3] Edited by: JC Anderson on 18/09/2010 19:56:36 Sadly, there are some "posts" elsewhere from early this year where one of the people involved (I'm trying to stay within the TOS here and not name names) admitted that they were in fact told it was an exploit by CCP not long after the initial petition said otherwise. They further explained that they stopped using said "exploit" again until the most recent "situation" where all of this came to light. The claim was that they were worried that the other party involved might know of it and use it against them, so they decided it was ok to use it again to their benefit as well. Originally by: Sader Rykane Why not just set negative radians to = 0 problem solved. Stealth patch it tomorrow so we can be done with this thread. Hope so. At least nobody can complain about it anymore if that is the case. ;)
BeanBagKing Terra Incognita Black Star Alliance	Posted - 2010.09.18 19:55:00 - [4] Originally by: Sader Rykane Why not just set negative radians to = 0 problem solved. Stealth patch it tomorrow so we can be done with this thread. I'm sure something more or less like this will be the answer. The problem, as OP put it, is the banning of players that used this before it was fixed. Personally, while under specific circumstances, this could "accidentally" be used, I think the odds are pretty frakin low that it has ever been an accident. Certainly not in the case presented on other forums. While those people could argue that they were unaware, that it was an accident, etc. at the end of the day CCP is not a democracy and doesn't have to hold a fair trial on the issue. If they feel those people were abusing a bug they can ban them without wasting the time to hear their side if they wish.
Lance Fighter Amarr	Posted - 2010.09.18 19:56:00 - [5] better would be to cap negative effects from ewar to 99.99% imo. Originally by: Cat o'Ninetails so i'm pretty much anti cat at the moment (lol) x
Merdaneth Amarr Sovereign Hospitaller Order of Saint Katherine	Posted - 2010.09.18 19:57:00 - [6] People, remember the rules. Please do not go into any details about this issue. I am interested in the rules implications. Who is the exploiter in a case like this. The one triggering the issue, or the one receiving the advantage? Both? What if the target was unwilling or unaware? etc. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Lance Fighter Amarr	Posted - 2010.09.18 19:59:00 - [7] How can you, as someone on the same ts/vent, not realize that this exploit is going on? Let alone even in the same system. Originally by: Cat o'Ninetails so i'm pretty much anti cat at the moment (lol) x
Taedrin Gallente White Haven Corp	Posted - 2010.09.18 20:03:00 - [8] If need be, CCP can rely on that clause in the EULA or TOS which states that they can ban you for whatever reason they want. ---------- Originally by: Dr Fighter "how do you know when youve had a repro accident" Theres modules missing and morphite in your mineral pile.
Ais Hellia	Posted - 2010.09.18 20:08:00 - [9] Edited by: Ais Hellia on 18/09/2010 20:08:50 Originally by: Merdaneth Hence my estimation that CCP will be very careful in banning any involved players. if the words about submitted petitions and the bug reports and the answers to them are true, the only people who deserve to feel the "banhammer" are ignorant CCP employees that were to deal with the issue
HeIIfire11	Posted - 2010.09.18 20:10:00 - [10] Edited by: HeIIfire11 on 18/09/2010 20:12:30 Anyone shooting with blasters and autocannons,from that range knows whats going on.Nice bunch of excuses though. And the fact that they used it a whole year..Id empty their wallets before wrecking them with the ban hammer. Should it be the case that they did report it and nothing was done..well thats ccp's fault and they should be left alone.
Merdaneth Amarr Sovereign Hospitaller Order of Saint Katherine	Posted - 2010.09.18 20:13:00 - [11] Originally by: Lance Fighter How can you, as someone on the same ts/vent, not realize that this exploit is going on? Let alone even in the same system. I believe that CCP is fairly scrupulous when it comes to banning. They don't ban you just like that. 'You must have been on the same TS/Vent and must have realized it!' that is not evidence. If CCP considered that kind of thing evidence enough to justify banning, I'm sure we would see a lot more macro users getting banned. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Lance Fighter Amarr	Posted - 2010.09.18 20:17:00 - [12] Originally by: Merdaneth Originally by: Lance Fighter How can you, as someone on the same ts/vent, not realize that this exploit is going on? Let alone even in the same system. I believe that CCP is fairly scrupulous when it comes to banning. They don't ban you just like that. 'You must have been on the same TS/Vent and must have realized it!' that is not evidence. If CCP considered that kind of thing evidence enough to justify banning, I'm sure we would see a lot more macro users getting banned. well yes, id agree - but in this case I would say anyone who was in the system and using it exploit, no matter if they were 'just' receiving the benefits of the exploit, or if they were actively engaging the exploit, should at the very least, have their wallets cleaned out. Id much prefer banned, but well, having a negative wallet in the billions can be far worse Originally by: Cat o'Ninetails so i'm pretty much anti cat at the moment (lol) x
Lance Fighter Amarr	Posted - 2010.09.18 20:20:00 - [13] Originally by: Wai Ng'Tse Originally by: Lance Fighter better would be to cap negative effects from ewar to 99.99% imo. with stacking penalties, the effects from anything are already capped to some extent. But with the fact that the spacial effects obviously don't stack with modules, meant that it was possible to get neg stats. er The problem has nothing to do with stacking penalties, im talking per module, not overall. The module shall never exceed a 99.99% debuff. Originally by: Cat o'Ninetails so i'm pretty much anti cat at the moment (lol) x
JC Anderson Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2010.09.18 20:20:00 - [14] Originally by: Nicholas Barker Originally by: Merdaneth - Might trigger the issue as a result of normal and valid gameplay Yeah, i always tracking disrupt my friends during fights. Haven't you heard? It's a way to show appreciation between friends.
Merdaneth Amarr Sovereign Hospitaller Order of Saint Katherine	Posted - 2010.09.18 20:25:00 - [15] As I feared soome people can't stop themselves from posting specific details. As such I have asked to have my own thread locked. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.09.18 20:35:00 - [16] Originally by: Merdaneth - He might not even be aware Um, I find it EXTREMELY hard to believe that someone has fitted blasters, has set himself up to shoot from 150 km away, is hitting for full damage (all coincidental), and not realize that something is horribly wrong, or in this case, horribly right in their favor. I guess if you JUST started playing (and CCP could easily verify this) it is possible you didn't know what you were doing. But like I said, it is incredibly hard to believe this is the case if you have been playing for a while. Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
Captain Pompous Is Right Even When He's Wrong So Deal With It	Posted - 2010.09.18 20:35:00 - [17] The Captain busts in before the lock. Happy "Talk Like a Pirate (exploiter) Day" LOL --- ☻♥ Problem? Therapy sessions ♥☻
Mr SmartGuy	Posted - 2010.09.18 20:51:00 - [18] For example, the following things are true of a player that gains an advantage from LAG: - He doesn't have to be willing - He doesn't have to do anything special or cooperate in any way - He doesn't have a choice - He might not even be aware The person triggering the issue: - Might not be aware that he is causing the issue - Might trigger the issue as a result of normal and valid gameplay - Doesn't get any (direct) advantage from triggering the issue (in fact, it might give him a disadvantage) As you might be aware, the definition of an exploit in the TOS contains two conditions: 1. It is a bug 2. You use the bug to gain an unfair advantage over other players ... etc.
Ghoest	Posted - 2010.09.18 22:53:00 - [19] The OPs being a silly goober. And is making a non-point If you understand the exploit its really easy to see that anyone using it to its full effect would be aware of whats happening because it requires a playstyyle that would make no sense otherwise. CCP obviously isnt combing every log from the past year seeing if a random person here there might have unwittingly done this and not realized it. Wherever you went - Here you are.
Brannor McThife Caldari Brotherhood of the Ancients	Posted - 2010.09.18 22:55:00 - [20] OP is an alt of one of the offenders and is trying to justify his cheating. GTFO. -G
Pohbis Neo T.E.C.H.	Posted - 2010.09.18 23:09:00 - [21] If CCP bans anyone over this. They're pathetic. They introduced wormholes with effects to cause drastic changes in module behavior. The entire goal was to give players interesting options and challenges, based on the particular wormhole effect. Turns out they didn't update their formulas to deal with the extremes of said effects. CCPs fault. Not the players...
Spurty Caldari D00M. Northern Coalition.	Posted - 2010.09.18 23:18:00 - [22] Originally by: Pohbis If CCP bans anyone over this. They're pathetic. They introduced wormholes with effects to cause drastic changes in module behavior. The entire goal was to give players interesting options and challenges, based on the particular wormhole effect. Turns out they didn't update their formulas to deal with the extremes of said effects. CCPs fault. Not the players... chuckle, CCP only just got religion with modules cycling forever when you want them to stop. Its tons simpler to banstick everyone than waste money looking in log files. Yelp!
Mr Kidd	Posted - 2010.09.18 23:22:00 - [23] Whole fleets using this exploit can be nothing more than whole fleets knowingly using this exploit. The ban hammer should find its mark quite easily. However, if it's true that it was GM sanctioned, then noone is going to get banned.
JC Anderson Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2010.09.19 01:15:00 - [24] Originally by: Mr Kidd Whole fleets using this exploit can be nothing more than whole fleets knowingly using this exploit. The ban hammer should find its mark quite easily. However, if it's true that it was GM sanctioned, then noone is going to get banned. Doubt it was "sanctioned" Instead I think it's more of something that fell through the cracks. Not worth trying to place blame on any party IMHO. In some ways I agree with some of the things the OP has said. Just not all of what he said.
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2010.09.19 01:33:00 - [25] OP you are just a troll coming here and trying to say that it creates no advantage. And also a total asshat. When you say "fanboi" try to picture a fat man doing burlesque with 2 big ass fans that say CCP on one and HTFU on the other. Because that dude is me.
QT McWhiskers	Posted - 2010.09.19 02:01:00 - [26] Edited by: QT McWhiskers on 19/09/2010 02:01:52 Honestly, if they ban people for exploiting a glitch in the game, and not ban the dozens of repeat offenders in the dronelands, that would be pretty ****ed up. Ban people for finding and using a loophole in your coding, but not ban people using third party tools to cheat. /sarcasm
Templar Dane Amarrian Retribution	Posted - 2010.09.19 02:37:00 - [27] Edited by: Templar Dane on 19/09/2010 02:37:48 Originally by: Merdaneth I find the current exploit issue interesting because of the rules implications. Why? Because this exploit has peculiar characteristics. For example, the following things are true of a player that gains an advantage from this 'issue': - He doesn't have to be willing - He doesn't have to do anything special or cooperate in any way - He doesn't have a choice - He might not even be aware The person triggering the issue: - Might not be aware that he is causing the issue - Might trigger the issue as a result of normal and valid gameplay - Doesn't get any (direct) advantage from triggering the issue (in fact, it might give him a disadvantage) As you might be aware, the definition of an exploit in the TOS contains two conditions: 1. It is a bug 2. You use the bug to gain an unfair advantage over other players Anyone triggering this bug doesn't get any advantage himself. The only advantage gained is if the other player is also aware and they have made a deal to share its benefits. Such a deal is hard to prove though. Especially in a game rife with spies, betrayals and all forms of scams and metagame-play a clever player could even use trigger the issue on his enemies, get logs of the exploit in use and report it to get his enemies hit by the banhammer. Hence my estimation that CCP will be very careful in banning any involved players. PS: Please do not go into any detail concerning this issue other than what CCP has already mentioned. Please keep within the TOS. I know, I haven't spoken to any player who isn't yet aware of this issue, but the rules are the rules. Why does this smell like a stealth cop out? You don't accidentally daisy chain [censored] onto your fellow gangmates with [censored] and [censored] fitted and [censored] from [censored] away. OOPS, SORRY GAIS. One big daisy chain of OOOPS with a dash of exploit and a pinch of fail.
branodn lee Minmatar Capital Ships Inc.	Posted - 2010.09.19 03:21:00 - [28] well i dont think anyone should be banned, i just think they need to be warned not to use it again and if they do then ban them.. also anyone know why the other post the link to the news deal was deleted by ccp. now the news deal talking about this is gone. i smell ccp cover up....
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.09.19 04:55:00 - [29] Edited by: Akita T on 19/09/2010 04:59:44 Originally by: Merdaneth The only advantage gained is if the other player is also aware and they have made a deal to share its benefits. Such a deal is hard to prove though. Right. So if the vast majority of the fleet is fit in such a way to enable it and uses something that would otherwise not be used on friendlies... ...yeah, that's *soooo haaaard to proooooove* something fishy was going on and those involved knew about it. ESPECIALLY after petitions asking about this exact situation came from some of them. Originally by: branodn lee well i dont think anyone should be banned, i just think they need to be warned not to use it again and if they do then ban them. AFAIH, they were already warned not to use it. They still used it, eventually, after a while of not using it at all (as warned). Bans would be perfectly justified if that was indeed the case. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Omega Flames Caldari Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse True Reign	Posted - 2010.09.19 05:01:00 - [30] Link to the warning? ------------------------- "Forsys > WAR Forsys > HUH Forsys > WHAT IS IT GOOD FOR Harry Sunday > loot Forsys > touchT"
Guvante Dreddit	Posted - 2010.09.19 05:47:00 - [31] I am sorry, but there is no chance that someone received that kind of benefit without knowing. That is like being given a $100 bill that is still part of a full 8.5x11 sheet of paper, taking it to the bank, and claiming that you had no clue. I could see missing a minor DPS increase, but you know as well as I do what kind of benefits that exploit created.
Opertone Caldari Metalworks Majesta Empire	Posted - 2010.09.19 06:30:00 - [32] BAN hammer lift! NERF hammer hit the target... IT
Abdiel Kavash Caldari Paladin Order Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.09.19 06:44:00 - [33] Edited by: Abdiel Kavash on 19/09/2010 06:45:23 Originally by: Pohbis If CCP bans anyone over this. They're pathetic. They introduced wormholes with effects to cause drastic changes in module behavior. The entire goal was to give players interesting options and challenges, based on the particular wormhole effect. Turns out they didn't update their formulas to deal with the extremes of said effects. CCPs fault. Not the players... Agreed. I was always under the impression that in modern society retroactive punishment for breaking laws that didn't exist at the time of the crime was a big no-no. If CCP deems this an exploit, they have the right to punish anyone who does this from now on. How is someone supposed to know what exactly will be deemed an exploit at some future point of time, and what is just funky game mechanics? Several examples: Looting someone's wrecks gives you aggro, salvaging doesn't. A warp bubble can drag you out of warp and several kilometers away even if you didn't pass through it. A ship generating a cynosural field can be pushed in a starbase's forcefield and be protected by it. Without CCP's Word of God, I doubt there is anything that could unquestionably characterize the first two cases as allowed and the third an exploit. Similarly with reprocessing starbase structures after Tyrannis: CCP acknowledged it was their fault, and fixed the issue. Nobody was banned just because they reprocessed something they shouldn't have. And I am pretty sure that people exploiting this made collectively much more ISK than the corporation in question here. Or, for another example, deep space safe spots. Same story. Last point: Who exactly do you want to punish? All members of said corporation, even if they never even entered the system in question? Everyone who ever entered the system, even if they never used the affected module? Everyone who ever used the module? Everyone who had the affected module used on them? People who didn't know anything about the previous communication with CCP, and were just told by their CEO to bring that specific fit to battle? In either case a lot of innocents will be affected. Edit: Disclaimer - I am in no way affiliated with the corporation in question, and I didn't know anything about said game mechanic until it was made public. ___________ EVE is dying! Now for real!
Destination SkillQueue Are We There Yet	Posted - 2010.09.19 07:05:00 - [34] Originally by: Abdiel Kavash Edited by: Abdiel Kavash on 19/09/2010 06:45:23 Originally by: Pohbis If CCP bans anyone over this. They're pathetic. They introduced wormholes with effects to cause drastic changes in module behavior. The entire goal was to give players interesting options and challenges, based on the particular wormhole effect. Turns out they didn't update their formulas to deal with the extremes of said effects. CCPs fault. Not the players... stuff The problem with your musings is, that the guys doing it reported it, so they knew it wasn't working as intended. A GM might have okayed it initially, but now people are saying they got contacted after that and were told to stop expoiting it. All of this is ofcourse hearsay, but it seems they knew it and were told to stop doing it, so there is no retroactive punishing here. Just punishing people who knew they were exploiting, were told they were exploiting and did it anyway. The more advantage they gained using this method, the more likely they will get banhammered and justly so. The only thing that CCP needs to figure out is who to punish and that should be simple task, although it might take some time. The setups and uses are very distinct for this particular use, so all accounts found using them should be a candidate for the banhammer. This isn't a case of slight alteration of existing function, so mistakes might actually happen. It took specific setups, used in ways it was clearly not meant to function and the affect was obvious to anyone who has ever fitted said systems. It is as clear case of exploiting as you could possibly ever get after item duping. CCP might ignore their actions if it was used in a few separate incidents, but if anything suggests to systematic abuse, most involved will get the banhammer and the corp/alliance might lose a bunch of assets.
Astarte Efga'ir	Posted - 2010.09.19 07:06:00 - [35] Originally by: Ais Hellia if the words about submitted petitions and the bug reports and the answers to them are true, the only people who deserve to feel the "banhammer" are ignorant CCP employees that were to deal with the issue This is not the first time that a small group of players who discovered an exploit and reported it to CCP, never got an answer or were even told it was working as intended. What worries me is that a Senior GM (alledgedly) knew about this issue for a long time and yet told the discoverers it was ok to use it. That is: untill word got out. Then suddenly it is not working as intended anymore,.. but deemed an exploit. So as long as you keep it a secret, it's ok to use it? CCP Fail bigtime.. again.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.09.19 07:08:00 - [36] Edited by: Akita T on 19/09/2010 07:15:23 _ [sarcasm mode toggled to super-heavy-duty] Originally by: Omega Flames Link to the warning? Sure, CCP religiously clears up any GM correspondence or references to any exploits until they're fixed from the forums (sometimes even after they're fixed) and they never give out the names of the characters involved in exploits (not even their corp or alliance), but they'd *TOTALLY* respond to petitions about exploits in the forums directly, or let such petitions and their response be plastered all over the place, or publicly announce "hey, you guys in <corp X>, stop using <exploit Y> or else, oh, and in case you don't know which that one is, it's the one where you <exploit Y detailed description>". So, yeah, if that warning existed, we could totally link to it because you asked. Originally by: Abdiel Kavash How is someone supposed to know what exactly will be deemed an exploit at some future point of time, and what is just funky game mechanics? Gee, I don't know, I found this place where I can sell something but it doesn't disappear from my inventory, I wonder if that could possibly be an exploit if I keep selling... nah, I'll just assume it's not. Hey, there's this other thing where this tiny belt rat keeps instantly reappearing after I kill it, and it always drops high-grade pirate implants, might THAT be an exploit if I keep killing it as long as I can... meh, probably not, I mean, I couldn't possibly presume to know what might be deemed an exploit or not. Wait, this is odd, my shields got 99.9% resists and 1 second recharge time, and every shot I make insta-kills any target... should I be worry that mayb.... ah, screw it, probably not an exploit if I keep using it either. [/sarcasm mode] _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Brannor McThife Caldari Brotherhood of the Ancients	Posted - 2010.09.19 07:21:00 - [37] Agree with Akita. You have to be a moron to think it's not an exploit. In real life there are common laws that are not specific. Any reasonable person would easily see this as an exploit. Just like Akita said, the first time you "sin" (cheat), you know it's not right...but do it enough times, and you convince yourself it's ok. In terms of the law of most modern countries, ignorance is no excuse. -G
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.09.19 07:32:00 - [38] Originally by: Brannor McThife OP is an alt of one of the offenders and is trying to justify his cheating. GTFO. I am 99.99% sure that he is in fact not an alt of anyone or anything. You shouldn't let your COAD defense mechanisms take over so easily when you lack proper arguments. Originally by: Brannor McThife Agree with Akita. You have to be a moron to think it's not an exploit.... As I understand it the party in question did query the GMs some time ago but CCP chose to ignore it. Probably because it happens in a very limited set of systems so is will never be a widespread issue like manipulating data stream to/from server to vanish from local is (just example of another clear exploit that remains unaddressed). If CCP starts banning without warning as is customary after they themselves dropped the ball ... pretty clear to me who's to blame. Since issue is only present in a limited set of systems, systems that are not easily accessible, why not build on it and make it true space beyond the frontiers .. create a Bizarro world out there where anything can happen. Effect in question could easily be 'nerfed' by adding some other effect that limits its impact.
seany1212 The Scowling Men	Posted - 2010.09.19 07:40:00 - [39] The corp involved in this exploit were well aware of what they were doing, they fitted there ships accordingly for battles, had a system with the required effects, had a permanent C6 with which to run sites in once they found one with the right effects and were more than capable of cycling wormholes, the question is how long has it been going on for and how much longer would it have gone on for, how much isk would they have made and how many people could they have removed from W-space if it wasnt brought to light? You guys make squeeky noises when you pop, and that's enough motivation as far as I'm concerned.
Shirley Serious Amarr The Khanid Sisters of Athra	Posted - 2010.09.19 07:46:00 - [40] Originally by: Merdaneth a player could even use trigger the issue on his enemies, get logs of the exploit in use and report it to get his enemies hit by the banhammer. Hence my estimation that CCP will be very careful in banning any involved players. Oh yes, that is going to complicate this hugely. the t1 track-disrupting frigate, that's good enough to put it into effect, isn't it? Create trial alt, use on opposition, forcing them into involuntarily exploiting. Petition them for doing it Madness Yes. Yes, I am.
Abdiel Kavash Caldari Paladin Order Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.09.19 08:05:00 - [41] Originally by: Akita T Gee, I don't know, I found this place where I can sell something but it doesn't disappear from my inventory, I wonder if that could possibly be an exploit if I keep selling... nah, I'll just assume it's not. Hey, there's this other thing where this tiny belt rat keeps instantly reappearing after I kill it, and it always drops high-grade pirate implants, might THAT be an exploit if I keep killing it as long as I can... meh, probably not, I mean, I couldn't possibly presume to know what might be deemed an exploit or not. Wait, this is odd, my shields got 99.9% resists and 1 second recharge time, and every shot I make insta-kills any target... should I be worry that mayb.... ah, screw it, probably not an exploit if I keep using it either. Hmm, so I put a warp bubble in the middle of nowhere and I pull in people who are warping to some 100km away and probably wouldn't even notice the bubble... hell yeah, let's get some free kills! I can start a research job in a POS, without ever having my expensive BPO in there and risking it being blown up? Cool, let the manufacturers risk 100% of their goods while my assets are completely safe. I can set my PI extractors to 4 day cycles, and they will conveniently reset every downtime, making FREE stuff for me with zero need for maintenance? How cool, FREE stuff is FREE! (note: I hope that obvious sarcasm is obvious ) ___________ EVE is dying! Now for real!
Fon Revedhort Monks of War DarkSide.	Posted - 2010.09.19 08:58:00 - [42] Now that's a total crap. They knew pretty well what they were doing and they do deserve getting banned. ---[center] Please resize your signature to the maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist
Omega Flames Caldari Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse True Reign	Posted - 2010.09.19 09:05:00 - [43] Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 19/09/2010 07:30:25 Originally by: Omega Flames Link to the warning? Sure, CCP religiously clears up any GM correspondence or references to any exploits until they're fixed from the forums (sometimes even after they're fixed) and they never give out the names of the characters involved in exploits (not even their corp or alliance), but they'd *TOTALLY* respond to petitions about exploits in the forums directly, or let such petitions and their response be plastered all over the place, or publicly announce "hey, you guys in <corp X>, stop using <exploit Y> or else, oh, and in case you don't know which that one is, it's the one where you <exploit Y detailed description>". So, yeah, if that warning existed, we could totally link to it because you asked. Unfortunately that's my point, I've been told there was even a dev blog about it but of course when I want a link to so called dev blog it no longer exists. Even got one guy in my alliance saying he used to be in AHARM (corp history says otherwise, but not worth the effort to argue that with him) No one has proof a GM said anything about this being bannable and if they did contact GM's about it and got told it was ok well cant really ban peps for it now can ya? Besides it really shouldn't even be happening due to stacking penalty's. So apparently there is bad math going on out there ------------------------- "Forsys > WAR Forsys > HUH Forsys > WHAT IS IT GOOD FOR Harry Sunday > loot Forsys > touchT"
N0N	Posted - 2010.09.19 09:21:00 - [44] Edited by: N0N on 19/09/2010 09:23:17 Originally by: Pohbis If CCP bans anyone over this. They're pathetic. They introduced wormholes with effects to cause drastic changes in module behavior. The entire goal was to give players interesting options and challenges, based on the particular wormhole effect. Turns out they didn't update their formulas to deal with the extremes of said effects. CCPs fault. Not the players... I would agree, if it wasn't for the fact they knew about this months ago.
HeIIfire11	Posted - 2010.09.19 10:39:00 - [45] All in all look at it this way. First of all we dont know if the gm said it was ok. Second..if they dont punish the people doing it,at least those in the killmails..of the pictures on that site,what message will that send? It will send the message that if you find an exploit..exploit it as long as you can until you get caught,because its ccp's fault. Wrong message to be bringing accross if you ask me.
Abdiel Kavash Caldari Paladin Order Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.09.19 10:48:00 - [46] Originally by: HeIIfire11 It will send the message that if you find an exploit..exploit it as long as you can until you get caught,because its ccp's fault. And what message will banninng them send? Don't use any funky-sounding mechanic (see my examples above) because it might be considered an exploit at some point in the future and you might be banned retroactively? Should you petition about anything that sounds out of order? And even if a senior GM says it's okay, you should still not use it because it might be overruled one day? Deep safe spots are a similar case. Surely when you log off in the middle of a warp, you expect to return to the point where you logged off; or maybe to the warp origin or destination - not a dozen AU away. CCP confirmed this as a real mechanic, however a few weeks (months?) later revoked it and removed the feature and all bookmarks created using it. Did they ban anyone who ever got more than 20AU from the system borders? Did they delete all ships stored in the safespots? Did they compensate for ships lost in fights because the enemy warped in from a DSS completely unexpected? Let me be clear, I am not advocating abusing bugs and exploits. These should be fixed, or if that is not immediately possible, publicly declared as exploits. But only after the rules are set, you can punish people for breaking them. But retroactive punishment for something that was confirmed as a feature before is bad. Okay? ___________ EVE is dying! Now for real!
Brannor McThife Caldari Brotherhood of the Ancients	Posted - 2010.09.19 10:53:00 - [47] Edited by: Brannor McThife on 19/09/2010 10:54:47 Originally by: Abdiel Kavash stuff What if a GM had actually said it was NOT ok? As it's in a hard-to-get-to place... who's going to check on you? We're all still waiting for this proof that a GM said it was ok. So far it's all just hearsay. [EDIT} Proof would include a petition and submitted bug report(s). -G
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.09.19 11:02:00 - [48] Originally by: Abdiel Kavash And what message will banninng them send? Don't use any funky-sounding mechanic (see my examples above) because it might be considered an exploit at some point in the future and you might be banned retroactively? Yes. Sounds like an excellent message, tbh. Quote: Should you petition about anything that sounds out of order? And even if a senior GM says it's okay, you should still not use it because it might be overruled one day? Yes. Quote: But only after the rules are set, you can punish people for breaking them. But retroactive punishment for something that was confirmed as a feature before is bad. Okay? The rules are set: don't exploit bugs. As for the whole "confirmed as a feature", until I see the wording of the petition and bug reports they handed in, I'm going to flat-out state that no such confirmation exists. They may have asked the GMs about some ill-defined wonky behaviour (leaving out the details that makes it an obvious bug), and gotten that supposed "effects are meant to be use" response, but the value of that response depends entirely on what kind of question they asked. àand even then, yes, they should have understood that the GMs didn't get the problem, considering what the result of the bug was. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Feilamya	Posted - 2010.09.19 11:22:00 - [49] Edited by: Feilamya on 19/09/2010 11:24:27 This bug should be fixed as soon as possible, but there should not be any consequences for those who have profited from it. Players discovering and using exploits like this, and other players finding out about it, is part of what keeps the game interesting. It also generates publicity and draws more players to the game. It is in no way "game-breaking" (to cite massively.com), nor has it caused any ireversible damage to the game or the community. Players who discover and use exploits are obviously more creative than players who don't. And creativity is what keeps a sandbox game interesting. Without it, this would be an incredibly boring game, and CCP would be forced to turn it more and more into WoW in space to prevent losing subscribers. Instead of banning the creative minds of the player base, do something about the ISK farmers. Also, it would be interesting to see how the residents of this C6 magnetar would look like in a fight against invaders using the same exploit. It would be awesome if they could be kicked out of their system in a "legit" fight before the bug is fixed, rather than by the banhammer. But I understand that the whiny majority sees this differently...
Abdiel Kavash Caldari Paladin Order Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.09.19 11:28:00 - [50] Originally by: Brannor McThife Edited by: Brannor McThife on 19/09/2010 10:54:47 Originally by: Abdiel Kavash stuff What if a GM had actually said it was NOT ok? As it's in a hard-to-get-to place... who's going to check on you? We're all still waiting for this proof that a GM said it was ok. So far it's all just hearsay. [EDIT} Proof would include a petition and submitted bug report(s). -G Of course, if they were told by a GM not to do it, then I retract my statements. But we have no proof either way so far - I can only base my opinion on what I know. But in that case, I would consider it at the very least polite to inform the community about the bug until it gets fixed. Of course, not post details or anything - just a simple message: "There is currently a bug in game code that under certain circumstances allows X to do Y. This is not intended and will be fixed ASAP. Anyone caught exploiting this will receive a N days ban." I don't want to accuse anyone, but in the harsh, trustless world of EVE it is not impossible that the corporation's CEO wrote the petition, got a No from the GMs, but actually announced to his members that the answer was Yes and instructed them to use the mechanics. Is it the players' fault then? Should they be banned because they trusted their CEO? (Once again, I am not suggesting that this is what happened.) Once again, see the treatment of deep safe bookmarks - that was, in my opinion, the best way to treat such a problem. ___________ EVE is dying! Now for real!
Shirley Serious Amarr The Khanid Sisters of Athra	Posted - 2010.09.19 11:31:00 - [51] Originally by: Abdiel Kavash , I would consider it at the very least polite to inform the community about the bug until it gets fixed. Of course, not post details or anything - just a simple message: "There is currently a bug in game code that under certain circumstances allows X to do Y. This is not intended and will be fixed ASAP. Anyone caught exploiting this will receive a N days ban." There was a news article yesterday, but it was removed. Yes. Yes, I am.
Catari Taga Centre Of Attention Middle of Nowhere	Posted - 2010.09.19 11:39:00 - [52] Originally by: Shirley Serious Originally by: Abdiel Kavash , I would consider it at the very least polite to inform the community about the bug until it gets fixed. Of course, not post details or anything - just a simple message: "There is currently a bug in game code that under certain circumstances allows X to do Y. This is not intended and will be fixed ASAP. Anyone caught exploiting this will receive a N days ban." There was a news article yesterday, but it was removed. Can't wait to read the damage control on that one. We accidentally the news report? There is no exploit? EVE has no bugs? If it wasn't such a typical CCP blunder I'd have to laugh, but this isn't even surprising me anymore. --
Shirley Serious Amarr The Khanid Sisters of Athra	Posted - 2010.09.19 11:44:00 - [53] Originally by: Catari Taga Originally by: Shirley Serious There was a news article yesterday, but it was removed. Can't wait to read the damage control on that one. We accidentally the news report? There is no exploit? EVE has no bugs? iirc, all it said was: "We have become aware of an issue. We are investigating. We will have more news soon." Yes. Yes, I am.
Astarte Efga'ir	Posted - 2010.09.19 11:46:00 - [54] Originally by: Shirley Serious Originally by: Catari Taga Originally by: Shirley Serious There was a news article yesterday, but it was removed. Can't wait to read the damage control on that one. We accidentally the news report? There is no exploit? EVE has no bugs? iirc, all it said was: "We have become aware of an issue. We are investigating. We will have more news soon." The exact message that was removed read: Quote: It has recently been reported that an issue exists in Class 6 wormholes which allows for an exploit of game mechanics. This is currently being investigated and we hope to have some more details for you as soon as possible. We would advise all players that the use of exploits is not permitted at any time and doing so can result in action being taken as per the Terms of Service.
Cobalt Sixty Caldari The Price of Darkness	Posted - 2010.09.19 12:10:00 - [55] I sort of hope they leave the mechanic intact, just for the potential of watching people face-melt each other while trying to dominate the C6 Magnetards.
Brannor McThife Caldari Brotherhood of the Ancients	Posted - 2010.09.19 12:26:00 - [56] Originally by: Cobalt Sixty I sort of hope they leave the mechanic intact, just for the potential of watching people face-melt each other while trying to dominate the C6 Magnetards. That's not the point... they've made billions (trillions?) of ISK exploiting this. -G
Abdiel Kavash Caldari Paladin Order Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.09.19 12:47:00 - [57] Originally by: Brannor McThife Originally by: Cobalt Sixty I sort of hope they leave the mechanic intact, just for the potential of watching people face-melt each other while trying to dominate the C6 Magnetards. That's not the point... they've made billions (trillions?) of ISK exploiting this. -G I very much doubt it was trilions. Even assuming this allows them to complete WH sites in half the time needed, it would come out to a few bilions, maybe dozens of bilions. You have to realize that as far as PvE goes, this is not a very big issue; as Sleepers can cross even the maximum targeting range of 250km very easily. The only thing you are left with is 100% damage potential on everything; not that hitting battleships (the only relevant source of income) is any hard. Starbase structure reprocessing yielded that much in the first few days, and some of the stockpiles will last literally for years. There are market graphs documenting this available to everyone. ___________ EVE is dying! Now for real!
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2010.09.19 14:01:00 - [58] Originally by: Brannor McThife We're all still waiting for this proof that a GM said it was ok. So far it's all just hearsay. [EDIT} Proof would include a petition and submitted bug report(s). No we are not, because that would be against ToS/EULA. Originally by: Tippia .... They may have asked the GMs about some ill-defined wonky behaviour... Errrm, the GMs are supposed to ask clarifying questions if they do not fully understand the situation. Are you suggesting that the GMs are in on it or not capable of doing their jobs properly? Hahahahaha. I have not met anyone outside of political office that was able to spin something so extensively as to leave the huge gap you imply exist in understanding between petitioner-GM. Originally by: Brannor McThife That's not the point... they've made billions (trillions?) of ISK exploiting this. How many assaults have been attempted? Since the bug is purely combat oriented any money they make from it must be from loot/ratting .. billions/trillions in loot is a lot. From the SHC description of events I get the distinct impression that no assaults have ever been staged other than the random roam which have zero impact on infrastructure .. the inhabitants were supposedly collapsing all worms going in very fast after they spawned and sleepers are not that hard for organized groups in the first place so doubt the "profit" was anywhere near that. Speaking of numbers, how many worms are there with Magnetars total? Just how much of a problem is it?
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.09.19 14:12:00 - [59] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Are you suggesting that the GMs are [...] not capable of doing their jobs properly ? Bingo. That's exactly what everybody is saying, in slightly different words. CCP has already publicly "apologized" for the perceived poor quality of GM training, by explaining that it's next to practically impossible to train a GM in any reasonable amount of time to know everything you might expect a GM to know thanks to the extensive nature of EVE. So, yes, even a senior GM can get some things wrong, and bothering some dev that MIGHT know better for anything that sounds a bit fishy to a GM is not exactly productive either. But of course, from a customer more than used to the customary USA entitlement suite following from the crap adage of "the customer is always right" (hint : hell no, he's usually not anywhere close to right), it might sound like a good idea to double-check and triple-check everything and involve devs into GM work. Sure, the GM training program could be improved, better documentation could be provided to them, and a lot of other things could happen, but that won't happen overnight... and hey, guess what, even players that DID play for years and spent a lot of time getting to know almost every aspect of the game STILL are nowhere close to knowing everything you seem to expect a GM to know, and many more people think they know something that turns out it's wrong. Do YOU think you would make a faultless GM ? I seriously doubt that. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Cobalt Sixty Caldari The Price of Darkness	Posted - 2010.09.19 14:20:00 - [60] Originally by: Brannor McThife Originally by: Cobalt Sixty I sort of hope they leave the mechanic intact, just for the potential of watching people face-melt each other while trying to dominate the C6 Magnetards. That's not the point... they've made billions (trillions?) of ISK exploiting this. -G My apologies, next time I'll be sure to use the sarcasm font so you get it the first time.
Merdaneth Amarr Sovereign Hospitaller Order of Saint Katherine	Posted - 2010.09.19 14:36:00 - [61] Edited by: Merdaneth on 19/09/2010 14:37:15 Sometimes proving an exploit is simple, like with the magic moon mineral POSses, once you know what you should look at. You have a record of people using the bug, and proving that they benefited from it is fairly easily. The hardest part is incriminating people who knew of the bug but only profited indirectly from it. Suppose CCP has extensive logs that register what happened during battles (PvP or PvE) in affected class 6 wormholes. These logs then can act as 'solid proof' of the 'issue'. What do you think should happen? - Ban everyone who experienced the issue? - Ban everyone who triggered the issue? - Ban everyone in the same corp as a person that falls in the previous two categories? (because they must have known and benefited) Obviously this is not easy and straightforward exercise. In this case I consider it very likely that most people involved would know about the bug. Most is not all though. You still need to prove each individual case. You cannot ban people just by association. You cannot ban people just because they experienced or triggered the issue, or you might ban a considerable amount of innocent users. Just because in all likelihood 90% of those that experienced the issue are guilty, doesn't mean one can safely ban 100% and just say 'tough' to the 10% that aren't guilty. This is regardless of the 'GM told us it was ok' issue. To me this seems a fairly obvious exploit, I certainly wouldn't trust a GM that told me 'it was intended game mechanics' on this issue. Players have their own responsibility when it comes to exploits, and relying on a GM's opinion doesn't remove one's own responsibility. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Urgg Boolean	Posted - 2010.09.19 16:26:00 - [62] Edited by: Urgg Boolean on 19/09/2010 17:04:43 IMHO the implications are more broad than just game mechanics, bans, and ToS issues. About 2 years ago, 7 of us (my circle of gaming friends) tried out the EvE free trial. Most of my chums are hard core PvPers and their immediate conclusion, based upon flaky front end code behavior, was that they COULD NOT TRUST the invisible back-end code. Needless to say, I am the only one if those 7 who started paying a sub. The W6 exploit has allowed my chums to resurrect their EvE bashing with a resounding "I told you so", and they pat themselves on the back for avoiding "code they knew they could not trust". My chums are well informed gamers, and I do not think they are living in a vacuum. I'm sure many more potential sub payers feel similarly. Let's face it, lag can easily be the difference between success and failure, so it is no stretch that poorly written back end code can eliminate any potentially spectacular personal effort, and lead to losses. I cannot quantify loss of potential subs, based upon this line of reasoning, beyond that of my 6 friends who avoided EvE, and who now feel their reasoning has been cemented due to the W6 exploit/bug. I simply hope CCP makes an official statement soon, otherwise, potential sub payers may well cement their own views of how EvE's code and/or CCP cannot be trusted. **Fixed some grammatical errors
branodn lee Minmatar Capital Ships Inc.	Posted - 2010.09.20 12:18:00 - [63] i think it is time for us to face facts for this situation. ccp has deleted post that linked to evadince aginst them and the corp using it. ccp are going to let it go and not do anything at all at this point. we could all wish they would but lets look at there past history about this type of situation. everything from when you could close local (nobody was banned for that) or to the bob cheating (nothen was really done there eather) or what about that pos exploite (none one person anyone knew was banned).... so yes ccp could do something but wont. because of how few people it affects they wont even put the time into finding out how long or how many times this group has ever used it to do anything about it. ccp is about what is the best bang for the buck. so who in there right mind thinks ccp will spend the money to investagate this and do something. for myself i do not think anything going to be done to the corps that used it. they might hotfix it but i dont even think that will be done. this is just my opinon from a 7 year player.
HeIIfire11	Posted - 2010.09.20 14:06:00 - [64] Originally by: branodn lee i think it is time for us to face facts for this situation. ccp has deleted post that linked to evadince aginst them and the corp using it. ccp are going to let it go and not do anything at all at this point. we could all wish they would but lets look at there past history about this type of situation. everything from when you could close local (nobody was banned for that) or to the bob cheating (nothen was really done there eather) or what about that pos exploite (none one person anyone knew was banned).... so yes ccp could do something but wont. because of how few people it affects they wont even put the time into finding out how long or how many times this group has ever used it to do anything about it. ccp is about what is the best bang for the buck. so who in there right mind thinks ccp will spend the money to investagate this and do something. for myself i do not think anything going to be done to the corps that used it. they might hotfix it but i dont even think that will be done. this is just my opinon from a 7 year player. Hey..if anything at least we know where we stand on the subject.Find an exploit..have at it.And if you get busted..play stupid and your all good.Blame it on ccp. Live and learn.
Jack Gilligan Caldari 1st Cavalry Division Circle-Of-Two	Posted - 2010.09.20 14:15:00 - [65] Edited by: Jack Gilligan on 20/09/2010 14:16:30 I expect the story of this exploit will go the way others like Ferrogel and T20 did. We'll find out that the issue was reported months ago, CCP didn't take it seriously, and as we already know, people have gotten silly rich from it. And we have a whistleblower who announced the flaw to the world, thus embarrassing CCP, especially as it has come out that it was reported months ago. The next step will be the "shoot the messenger, ban as many people as we have to in order to look like we're in charge" phase which is how CCP always deals with these things. Historically it's never been good to be a whistleblower in this game, especially when reporting Dev incompetence or corruption. CCP punishes these people instead of rewarding them. And it always seems to take months for someone to be bold enough to out the issue in public BEFORE any action is taken. Of course if they'd read the damn bug reports TO BEGIN WITH or fix that long broken log server that has been "showing nothing" since 2003 such exploits might not make it into the game in the first place or get caught and resolved BEFORE people can make trillions of isk and distort markets for months.
Dan Kaneda Sense of Serendipity Echoes of Nowhere	Posted - 2010.09.20 14:25:00 - [66] Originally by: Jack Gilligan Edited by: Jack Gilligan on 20/09/2010 14:16:30 people have gotten silly rich from it. please stop with this, I may not like very much AHARM and what they did, but a wormhole doesn't have infinite signatures/anoamlys. at best you get a few each days (3-4 anomalys, and that's not happening every day), and a organized basic fleet can take them down in 2 hours, less if you have a lot of pilots. The said exploit didn't make them rich, it sure heleped, but they would have gotten iskies anyway. They can't create wealth ex nihilo.
Zagdul Gallente Shadowed Command Fatal Ascension	Posted - 2010.09.20 14:33:00 - [67] Edited by: Zagdul on 20/09/2010 14:34:41 This is easy. The people debuffing their friends were not doing it to play a dirty trick on their friends. The people fitting short ranged weapons and cycling them at over 150km, knew that it would hit the target. The offending parties (the ones applying the debuff and the ones sniping with blasters), both were aware and admitted it publicly on their forums as well as submitted a petition to CCP. Both parties are at fault. That easy. Now, who should be banned? Neither of the people receiving or giving the debuff. The proper channels were followed by the offenders to have the bug fixed, bug was not fixed and remained in the game. If this bug exists, it's CCP's fault for not committing to excellence. Not the players. There are so many examples where bugs due to poor coding in this game have worked against the players. This example worked for the players. Treat the players who offended the same way CCP has treated us when they've made a mistake. Go after people modifying the game or using third party bot programs.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.09.20 14:37:00 - [68] Originally by: Zagdul If this bug exists, it's CCP's fault for not committing to excellence. Not the players. If the bug exists, it's the players' fault for exploiting it (aka cheating), not CCP's. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
HeIIfire11	Posted - 2010.09.20 14:41:00 - [69] Originally by: Dan Kaneda Originally by: Jack Gilligan Edited by: Jack Gilligan on 20/09/2010 14:16:30 people have gotten silly rich from it. please stop with this, I may not like very much AHARM and what they did, but a wormhole doesn't have infinite signatures/anoamlys. at best you get a few each days (3-4 anomalys, and that's not happening every day), and a organized basic fleet can take them down in 2 hours, less if you have a lot of pilots. The said exploit didn't make them rich, it sure heleped, but they would have gotten iskies anyway. They can't create wealth ex nihilo. They did make allot of isk..this was going on for months.Not only that..but you dont just find a wormhole and live happy ever after.People come in and out,and some will try and take that wormhole from you or drive you out.How many times have they used that exploit to defend it?who knows.This discussion is about opinions anyway.Nothing we say here will change ccp's actions. I see it as cheating..and it disapoints me because I thought the one game I wouldnt see this in is eve.Another reason to think twice before risking something I worked long and hard for
Jack Gilligan Caldari 1st Cavalry Division Circle-Of-Two	Posted - 2010.09.20 14:41:00 - [70] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Zagdul If this bug exists, it's CCP's fault for not committing to excellence. Not the players. If the bug exists, it's the players' fault for exploiting it (aka cheating), not CCP's. It's CCP's fault for not more aggressively dealing with exploit reports, AND in monitoring their broken log server for logs that show nothing. Logs of blasters shooting for maximum damage at 200km should ring alarms...
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2010.09.20 14:47:00 - [71] Originally by: Merdaneth Because this exploit has peculiar characteristics. For example, the following things are true of a player that gains an advantage from this 'issue': - He doesn't have to do anything special or cooperate in any way - He doesn't have a choice - He might not even be aware Yes, the player has a choice. He can choose NOT to use that exploit and NOT shoot. And for not being aware ... hitting a target 200k away from you for always maximum damage with weapons that are effective only at 5k range, yeah, that is not really easy to overlook. Originally by: Merdaneth The person triggering the issue: - Might not be aware that he is causing the issue - Might trigger the issue as a result of normal and valid gameplay Most unlikey that for example you ewar friends to HELP them by accident. That NEVER occurs in normal gameplay. It is a decision where you are fully aware of the effects and consequences. The only other time - besides this new incidenty - when you ewar your friends to help them is when you use the 'webbing trick' - and you know exactly what you are doing then too. So don't come with 'not being aware', that is just nonsense. Originally by: Merdaneth As you might be aware, the definition of an exploit in the TOS contains two conditions: 1. It is a bug 2. You use the bug to gain an unfair advantage over other players Anyone triggering this bug doesn't get any advantage himself. Is keeping my friends alive in a fleet battle not an advantage for my own also? Without my friends and gangmates I will certainly die but when they win the fight I will stay alive. So, if they stay alive it is an advantage for me. Of the exploit of this bug was a huge advantage to the exploiters. Originally by: Merdaneth CCP will be very careful in banning any involved players I will be surprised if there will be any ban at all Even with the infamous ferrogel-exploit only very very few people got banned. It is a shame that over and over again I have to read about bugs and hacks ('sphere' anyone?) first on third party forums because whenever someone tries to warn CCP here - because petitions or bug reports just didn't work in the past for that - those warnings will get more or less insta-nuked. I think the CSM needs to get more involved here, after all they have already signed an NDA and such.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.09.20 14:49:00 - [72] Originally by: Jack Gilligan Logs of blasters shooting for maximum damage at 200km should ring alarms... àwith the players, who should understand that they're exploiting a bug ù making them cheaters. It makes somewhere between none and zero difference how incompetent CCP are in fixing the problem. The culpability of the players remains exactly the same: they chose to exploit the bug; they chose to cheat; they are the ones responsible for their own actions. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
HeIIfire11	Posted - 2010.09.20 14:53:00 - [73] Originally by: Jack Gilligan It's CCP's fault for not more aggressively dealing with exploit reports, AND in monitoring their broken log server for logs that show nothing. Logs of blasters shooting for maximum damage at 200km should ring alarms... You ever hear the saying..two wrongs dont make a right? While ccp has a whole crap load of work keeping this game together...all the player had to do is make it clear exactly what is going on.Im sure ccp would have reacted otherwise.Beside the fact that we still have no proof that they even reported it..and what they really said.
Ophelia Ursus	Posted - 2010.09.20 14:56:00 - [74] Originally by: Merdaneth You still need to prove each individual case. You cannot ban people just by association. You cannot ban people just because they experienced or triggered the issue, or you might ban a considerable amount of innocent users. This isn't a court of law, and there is no burden of proof in this context. The only relevant question is how much damage this incident is causing to the reputations of CCP and Eve, and how much damage they would incur by banning any given account, both in terms of reputation and in terms of that account's subscription fees. Realistically, they won't sustain any meaningful reputation damage by banning anyone who can reasonably be linked to the exploit, which is to say, anyone in the corp in question. Signature removed.
Destination SkillQueue Are We There Yet	Posted - 2010.09.20 14:59:00 - [75] Well this is a great opportunity for CCP get rid of some of those surplus PLEXs. Give exploiters the choice of buying a PLEX(per exploiter) and CCP will ignore the exploit petitions about the issue for a week longer. Or alternatively stop exploiting, buy a twelve pack of PLEXs and CCP will ignore you when the banhammer time comes. This is truly an opportunity too good to ignore.
Zagdul Gallente Shadowed Command Fatal Ascension	Posted - 2010.09.20 15:01:00 - [76] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Zagdul If this bug exists, it's CCP's fault for not committing to excellence. Not the players. If the bug exists, it's the players' fault for exploiting it (aka cheating), not CCP's. Relax on your crusade... You're allowed to have an opinion on this... as am I. Don't try to disprove my opinion. You'll be running in circles. I never said they shouldn't be punished.
K'racker Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2010.09.20 15:10:00 - [77] Originally by: branodn lee i think it is time for us to face facts for this situation. ccp has deleted post that linked to evadince aginst them and the corp using it. ccp are going to let it go and not do anything at all at this point. we could all wish they would but lets look at there past history about this type of situation. everything from when you could close local (nobody was banned for that) or to the bob cheating (nothen was really done there eather) or what about that pos exploite (none one person anyone knew was banned).... so yes ccp could do something but wont. because of how few people it affects they wont even put the time into finding out how long or how many times this group has ever used it to do anything about it. ccp is about what is the best bang for the buck. so who in there right mind thinks ccp will spend the money to investagate this and do something. for myself i do not think anything going to be done to the corps that used it. they might hotfix it but i dont even think that will be done. this is just my opinon from a 7 year player. don't underestimate ccp's sensitivity to bad publicity. the link that was deleted, to a popular gaming site, may spur them to action. to leave such a situation live on TQ, their server code generating bad maths, also gives the appearance of ineptitude. as to punishment, only ccp know if the bug was petitioned, several times as the offending corp's ceo claims. regardless, given site respawn times, little, if any, extra isk was made. the current action against their home system is the first large invasion. the attackers wised up immediately, uncovered the method, and reported it. again, no real advantage gained. some posters have called for bans, removing isk, or more extreme measures like sealing them in the wormhole forever.. to myself, it's just another in the long line of :chuckle at ccp, shake head, move on... expecting it will be fixed; hotpatched with the standard terse, single-sentence explanation, or a footnote at the bottom of the next patch notes.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.09.20 15:11:00 - [78] Edited by: Tippia on 20/09/2010 15:13:21 Originally by: Zagdul I never said they shouldn't be punished. Rightà you only implied it by saying that ôNow, who should be banned? Neither of the people receiving or giving the debuff.ö and you argued for this on the basis that it was CCP's fault that these players cheated because they were letting the bug exist. àa bug the players knew about. àa bug the players exploited. So what do you feel is the right punishment for these cheaters? ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Jana Tanaka Caldari Tanaka Industries Inc.	Posted - 2010.09.20 15:24:00 - [79] Edited by: Jana Tanaka on 20/09/2010 15:26:06 This issue has been made public and is well documented on at least one major MMO site and certain alternative EVE-Forum. CCP cannot simply ignore this one and I certainly hope they wont do so. If the issue is not dealt with in a proper manner, then they will open up room for wildest speculations that are out of their control. Properly dealing with this issue includes informing the playerbase about the subject, evaluating the damage done and detailing if actions were taken against these exploiters or if not why. Right now I personally wonder why I even bother trying to play the game without exploits. The POS issue, the PI disaster, plus some I cannot even remember and now the WH mess, ...
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.09.20 15:29:00 - [80] Originally by: Merdaneth Obviously this is not easy and straightforward exercise. In this case I consider it very likely that most people involved would know about the bug. Most is not all though. You still need to prove each individual case. You cannot ban people just by association. You cannot ban people just because they experienced or triggered the issue, or you might ban a considerable amount of innocent users. Just because in all likelihood 90% of those that experienced the issue are guilty, doesn't mean one can safely ban 100% and just say 'tough' to the 10% that aren't guilty. Yeah, they really can - and perhaps should. If I let some dude in my fleet that I know is exploiting (and they did know), then I should either bug report him or petition him (both, preferably). They didn't. Frankly, I'd settle for a hot fix, but I wouldn't bat an eyelash at CCP banning the entire corp. -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
Zagdul Gallente Shadowed Command Fatal Ascension	Posted - 2010.09.20 15:33:00 - [81] Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 20/09/2010 15:13:21 Originally by: Zagdul I never said they shouldn't be punished. Rightà you only implied it by saying that ôNow, who should be banned? Neither of the people receiving or giving the debuff.ö and you argued for this on the basis that it was CCP's fault that these players cheated because they were letting the bug exist. àa bug the players knew about. àa bug the players exploited. So what do you feel is the right punishment for these cheaters? They should all have negative wallets, by quite a bit. If the logs show that the pilot was using this exploit during ratting. The ratting resulted in quite a bit of loot which was turned into things they sold on the market. Considering this was done in a C6, take the math of time logged in vs. extimated isk generated. Then let the players decide if they still wanna play :).
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2010.09.20 16:04:00 - [82] Quote: It also generates publicity and draws more players to the game Lawl you are kidding, right? You seriously think that you get more people in a game when the publicity it receives is about cheats and exploits? The only people you get due to that are, surpringly, cheaters. No one in their right mind can claim that this isnt flat out abbusing exploits, which is cheating. So they all deserve a perma ban. The alternative is also giving the message that until you get warned about it you may use exploits and hacks. I assume those who say they couldnt know it is an exploit also think people couldnt know that blocking certain packages to the local chat server thingie is an exploit, or creating ferrogel from nothing. And getting permission from a GM is not exactly hard to do. It is known that you can easily get a GM to sanction mass joining a corp that started a wardec (which isnt allowed) by carefully asking it. So if they just made a petition if it is allowed to use TDs on friendlies in a class 6 magnetar even a competent GM would have answered yes. And even if it was properly worded, everyone with more than 2 active brain cells can realise this is an exploit.
Jenson Savage Caldari Enlightened Incorporated	Posted - 2010.09.20 17:36:00 - [83] Funny how there's been no new news announcements about it (and CCP took down the only news post that they'd made). CCP?
Ghoest	Posted - 2010.09.20 18:14:00 - [84] Of all the thread on this topic how is that this is piece of crap is one CCP allowed to remain? Wherever you went - Here you are.
Merdaneth Amarr Sovereign Hospitaller Order of Saint Katherine	Posted - 2010.09.20 18:16:00 - [85] Originally by: Ophelia Ursus Originally by: Merdaneth You still need to prove each individual case. You cannot ban people just by association. You cannot ban people just because they experienced or triggered the issue, or you might ban a considerable amount of innocent users. This isn't a court of law, and there is no burden of proof in this context. The only relevant question is how much damage this incident is causing to the reputations of CCP and Eve, and how much damage they would incur by banning any given account, both in terms of reputation and in terms of that account's subscription fees. Realistically, they won't sustain any meaningful reputation damage by banning anyone who can reasonably be linked to the exploit, which is to say, anyone in the corp in question. CCP needs to take into account the same principles as any court of law otherwise they risk their reputation, which is worth quite a bit. Unjustly banned customers will generate a lot of negative publicity. Realistically, what would the odds be of most players in the corp in question: - being aware of said 'issue' - being aware that is was an exploit - using it to their advantage - nobody with the knowledge of using the exploit ever getting kicked from corp over that period of 6 months and or telling another about it? Nobody breaking rank with everyone aware for such a long time? - there not being a single spy in the corp that learned the secret and passed it on or petitioned it? I mean, if you really have an exploit that is giving you quite an advantage, you'll either take measures to reduce the odds of it being discovered by others, which would certainly include not freely sharing it with others, or you do share it freely with others because you don't really believe it is an exploit (for whatever reason, like your CEO telling you he has a mail from a GM it is perfectly fine). Which leads me to believe that heads of directors etc. will most certainly roll, but not those of most of the AHARM peasants, even if some of them used and/or benefited from the exploit. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Zagdul Gallente Shadowed Command Fatal Ascension	Posted - 2010.09.20 20:55:00 - [86] Originally by: Jenson Savage Funny how there's been no new news announcements about it (and CCP took down the only news post that they'd made). CCP? This is because CCP has to accept some blame in this. It's also why I'm against banning these players. Allow the R&K vs. AHARM fight to happen. We're all aware of this "mechanic". R&K have said multiple times they look at this as a challenge to overcome. They want AHARM to use it. Now, AHARM was told (by their own admission) that this was an exploit, yet they continued to use it. They admittedly used it for ratting and now against player targets. I'm not as upset that they used this for pvp as much as I am that they used it to farm C6 sleepers. This is far more of an offense in my opinion.
JC Anderson Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2010.09.21 00:05:00 - [87] Edited by: JC Anderson on 21/09/2010 00:16:30 Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 19/09/2010 07:30:25 _ [sarcasm mode toggled to super-heavy-duty] Originally by: Omega Flames Link to the warning? Sure, CCP religiously clears up any GM correspondence or references to any exploits until they're fixed from the forums (sometimes even after they're fixed) and they never give out the names of the characters involved in exploits (not even their corp or alliance), but they'd *TOTALLY* respond to petitions about exploits in the forums directly, or let such petitions and their response be plastered all over the place, or publicly announce "hey, you guys in <corp X>, stop using <exploit Y> or else, oh, and in case you don't know which that one is, it's the one where you <exploit Y detailed description>". So, yeah, if that warning existed, we could totally link to it because you asked. Originally by: Abdiel Kavash How is someone supposed to know what exactly will be deemed an exploit at some future point of time, and what is just funky game mechanics? Gee, I don't know, I found this place where I can sell something but it doesn't disappear from my inventory, I wonder if that could possibly be an exploit if I keep selling... nah, I'll just assume it's not. Hey, there's this other thing where this tiny belt rat keeps instantly reappearing after I kill it, and it always drops high-grade pirate implants, might THAT be an exploit if I keep killing it as long as I can... meh, probably not, I mean, I couldn't possibly presume to know what might be deemed an exploit or not. Wait, this is odd, my shields got 99.9% resists and 1 second recharge time, and every shot I make insta-kills any target... should I be worry that mayb.... ah, screw it, probably not an exploit if I keep using it either. Oh, yeah, and the EULA//TOS *totally don't* have any mentions whatsoever of players being obligated to report any things that could be exploitable bugs with the implied conclusion that failing to do so *while using them* is punishable. Originally by: Astarte Efga'ir This is not the first time that a small group of players who discovered an exploit and reported it to CCP, never got an answer or were even told it was working as intended. What worries me is that a Senior GM (alledgedly) knew about this issue for a long time and yet told the discoverers it was ok to use it. That is: untill word got out. Then suddenly it is not working as intended anymore,.. but deemed an exploit. So as long as you keep it a secret, it's ok to use it? CCP Fail bigtime.. again. Yup, because some GM failed to do his job properly, it's also totally and fully CCP's fault and obviously not the player's fault in any way, shape or form... and if one inexperienced GM doesn't understand what you're saying, that's TOTALLY a "carte blanche" to ~~exploit~~ umm ~~abuse~~ err utilize this wonderful unexpected feature to your heart's content, and if CCP later realizes what's going on they totally should not even slap your wrist for doing it... RIGHT ? Totally. I mean, like, duuh. Duuuuude, totally ! [/sarcasm mode] Dont forget that it wasn't working with grouped weapons. Obviously though, all of these people triggering their weapon hard points one at a time were just doing so because weapon grouping is just so noob'ish. As a side note for people asking for links to the warnings and details and this and that.... They exist but the links just can't be posted here on these forums. Over the past two days they have appeared in various threads but violated CCP's forum rules and were removed.
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2010.09.21 05:07:00 - [88] Originally by: Merdaneth CCP needs to take into account the same principles as any court of law otherwise they risk their reputation, which is worth quite a bit. Okay, let's go into the realm of real world analogies (because they are so awesome ofc) If some mall security guard told me it was ok to rob a bank then should I go to jail or not? But they left the keys in the door and said I could! Give me a break. I suspect CCP may be doing their covert fact finding thing then announce that the exploiters are banned. I for one see it as a huge blow to CCP's reputation that they do not prosecute exploiters. These exploiters have admitted to it and said if they find another exploit they would do it again. If you don't get banned for that I don't know what you would get banned for. Is the ban hammer missing or something? - It's not "Play through a pre-set story, become stronger, do endgame". Gameplay is open ended, and you make your own story. Unless you're too afraid of 'pvp grief' to do anything relevant
JC Anderson Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2010.09.21 05:30:00 - [89] Edited by: JC Anderson on 21/09/2010 05:31:23 Originally by: Vaal Erit Originally by: Merdaneth CCP needs to take into account the same principles as any court of law otherwise they risk their reputation, which is worth quite a bit. Okay, let's go into the realm of real world analogies (because they are so awesome ofc) If some mall security guard told me it was ok to rob a bank then should I go to jail or not? But they left the keys in the door and said I could! Give me a break. I suspect CCP may be doing their covert fact finding thing then announce that the exploiters are banned. I for one see it as a huge blow to CCP's reputation that they do not prosecute exploiters. These exploiters have admitted to it and said if they find another exploit they would do it again. If you don't get banned for that I don't know what you would get banned for. Is the ban hammer missing or something? Another example to consider would be one that also relates to bugs in software. Microsoft screws up in OS design and this leads to a back door that would allow hackers to bypass software security components. Would one assume that the hacker is doing nothing wrong simply because the bug exists and Microsoft hasn't fixed it?
Kogh Ayon	Posted - 2010.09.21 06:59:00 - [90] Sophistry can't save you. Let's see the banbammer hit on the heads who have earned alots from the bug!
Merdaneth Amarr Sovereign Hospitaller Order of Saint Katherine	Posted - 2010.09.21 17:29:00 - [91] Originally by: Vaal Erit Originally by: Merdaneth CCP needs to take into account the same principles as any court of law otherwise they risk their reputation, which is worth quite a bit. Okay, let's go into the realm of real world analogies (because they are so awesome ofc) If some mall security guard told me it was ok to rob a bank then should I go to jail or not? But they left the keys in the door and said I could! Give me a break. I suspect CCP may be doing their covert fact finding thing then announce that the exploiters are banned. If the mall security guard told you it was ok to take an item from the mall for a 50% reduction in cost, then I would expect some people to actually believe him, yes. I would check again with the manager, but hardly all people do. Oh, and if you want to use comparisons, I love em, do try to get your variables right. The mall guard and bank are unrelated, CCP GMs and CCP obviously aren't. Here is another for you: the mall guard says you can only take something for free if you friend pays for another item. In fact, if your friend pays, then a free item will drop automatically in your cart, and your only way to stop this is to leave the mall immediately without buying anything. Of course, later the the manager shows up to tell you that the item isn't actually free, the mall guard made a mistake, and the (supposedly free) item dropping into your cart was caused by a malfunction in the restocking system. He tells you that you stole the item from the mall and you should have realized that nothing in this world is for free (duh). He tells you that during the malfunction in the mall you should stay far away from friends that cause the restocking system to malfunction and that not doing so will earn you a prison sentence. Quote: I for one see it as a huge blow to CCP's reputation that they do not prosecute exploiters. These exploiters have admitted to it and said if they find another exploit they would do it again. If you don't get banned for that I don't know what you would get banned for. Is the ban hammer missing or something? Of course. This is true in the real world as well. The largest reason for innocent people to go to jail is overzealos prosecutors willing to compromise their procedures and 'get someone convicted' to appease the justly angry public. All those in the leadership and those privy to the exploit and the petitions should have known better. In fact, omitting the worst bug from the first petition shows bad faith as far as I'm concerned. The bug however should be trivial to solve, and it is sad that it took so long (and needed an escalation of this kind) to get the attention it deserves. Some of the bugs I reported got handled excellently, but I have a bug with very serious abuse potential waiting to get answered in the list right now. Weeks have gone past without it being adressed. I'm certainly not so stupid to ask a GM for permission to use it. When it looks like a bug and sounds like a bug it likely is a bug, and getting any advantage of it would be exploiting. However, I wouldn't need a partner to do it, but that bug could certainly arise due to valid gameplay (taking advantage without intentending to do so), in fact, that is how I found the bug in the first place. Just going about my business not intending to get any special advantage. Similarly, I think not all occurences of 'the issue' are necessarily also exploits when it concerns the current bug. I also think that not all players in association with the exploiters can be automatically considered exploiters too. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Zeke Mobius	Posted - 2010.09.21 17:42:00 - [92] Comedic to me how much time some of you put into writing some of these posts full knowing nothing will come of it.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2010.09.21 17:46:00 - [93] Originally by: Abdiel Kavash Edited by: Abdiel Kavash on 19/09/2010 06:45:23 Originally by: Pohbis If CCP bans anyone over this. They're pathetic. They introduced wormholes with effects to cause drastic changes in module behavior. The entire goal was to give players interesting options and challenges, based on the particular wormhole effect. Turns out they didn't update their formulas to deal with the extremes of said effects. CCPs fault. Not the players... Agreed. I was always under the impression that in modern society retroactive punishment for breaking laws that didn't exist at the time of the crime was a big no-no. If CCP deems this an exploit, they have the right to punish anyone who does this from now on. How is someone supposed to know what exactly will be deemed an exploit at some future point of time, and what is just funky game mechanics? Several examples: Looting someone's wrecks gives you aggro, salvaging doesn't. A warp bubble can drag you out of warp and several kilometers away even if you didn't pass through it. A ship generating a cynosural field can be pushed in a starbase's forcefield and be protected by it. Without CCP's Word of God, I doubt there is anything that could unquestionably characterize the first two cases as allowed and the third an exploit. Similarly with reprocessing starbase structures after Tyrannis: CCP acknowledged it was their fault, and fixed the issue. Nobody was banned just because they reprocessed something they shouldn't have. And I am pretty sure that people exploiting this made collectively much more ISK than the corporation in question here. Or, for another example, deep space safe spots. Same story. Last point: Who exactly do you want to punish? All members of said corporation, even if they never even entered the system in question? Everyone who ever entered the system, even if they never used the affected module? Everyone who ever used the module? Everyone who had the affected module used on them? People who didn't know anything about the previous communication with CCP, and were just told by their CEO to bring that specific fit to battle? In either case a lot of innocents will be affected. Edit: Disclaimer - I am in no way affiliated with the corporation in question, and I didn't know anything about said game mechanic until it was made public. Seeing as you are adamantly against retroactive punishment and that your opinion is only that things officially declared bugs should be punished, I suppose you feel that the people fined and banned for the moon minerals exploit (the one where they were producing moon minerals from thin air) should have the account unbanned, the game time and isk reimbursed as there was no "you should not produce moon minerals from nothing" rule officialli declared at the time. Care to comment?
Merdaneth Amarr Sovereign Hospitaller Order of Saint Katherine	Posted - 2010.09.21 17:47:00 - [94] Originally by: Zeke Mobius Comedic to me how much time some of you put into writing some of these posts full knowing nothing will come of it. Very likely. As I tried to indicate in my OP, my interest is purely academic. I have no stake at all in this issue, but I do like to debate the ins and outs of issues likes this. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Abdiel Kavash Caldari Paladin Order Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.09.21 18:30:00 - [95] Originally by: Zeke Mobius Comedic to me how much time some of you put into writing some of these posts full knowing nothing will come of it. TBH, this is one of the very rare discussion threads that didn't turn into flames and personal insults after one or two pages. Even if CCP's decision will most likely not be affected, the discussion itself is interesting. Originally by: Furb Killer Quote: It also generates publicity and draws more players to the game Lawl you are kidding, right? You seriously think that you get more people in a game when the publicity it receives is about cheats and exploits? The only people you get due to that are, surpringly, cheaters. Actually, reading about the infinite moon goo bug was one of the things that got me to try out EVE. I find it exciting that a comparably small and relatively unknown bug can have such a large effect on the community and economy. Originally by: Venkul Mul Seeing as you are adamantly against retroactive punishment and that your opinion is only that things officially declared bugs should be punished, I suppose you feel that the people fined and banned for the moon minerals exploit (the one where they were producing moon minerals from thin air) should have the account unbanned, the game time and isk reimbursed as there was no "you should not produce moon minerals from nothing" rule officialli declared at the time. Care to comment? Unfortunately I was not around at that time, so I don't know the specifics. I have read the dev blog, to quote: Quote: Users directly involved in the exploit were permanently banned. Direct involvement meant that the character had a director role in the corporation using the exploit or was directly involved in servicing the POSes in exploited state. Others that were found to be involved in moving the exploited goods and laundering the ISK also received bans for their part. I do not agree with banning the directors and people just hauling the minerals. Those people potentially didn't know about the exploit at all. Reading through the blog further, there have been petitions about this and the behavior has been identified as a bug several times. And last, if we want to be really pedantic, the ban policy mentioned in that blog explicitly mentions duping exploits, but does neither define nor state any punishment for any category of exploits the magnetar bug would fall under. I have briefly skimmed the EULA as well, and didn't find anything there either. Please correct me if I am wrong. What else to add. I am sure that a vast majority of people here would agree to a ban for exploiting obvious bugs in the game code - say, turning some module on and off actually stacks its effects and never deactivates; or using some obscure setting in the S&I window you manage to get the manufactured product and keep all the minerals at the same time. On the other hand, nobody would want a ban foor minor bugs or mechanics that have been considered valid features in the past, and have been changed - for example, already mentioned deep space bookmarks. The issue that arises is if we want to ban people for using some classes of bugs and not for others, where to draw the line. There will surely be a grey zone somewhere in between. Reprocessing NPC-sold starbase equipment has been such a case - there have been voices calling for bans to everyone involved, but no action was taken. If there is to be a clear policy on bans, there has to be a precise definition of an exploit first. And in the end, at least in some cases, it will always boil down to "what CCP says is an exploit". Therefore, to execute bans righteously and to prevent banning innocent players, the existence of an exploit has to be made known before a final decision is made. 0 characters left at this point. ___________ EVE is dying! Now for real!
Sexy Suzie	Posted - 2010.09.22 02:08:00 - [96] Edited by: Sexy Suzie on 22/09/2010 02:10:41 Im interested what if anything will happen with the billions in isk this exploiting corp was able to generate using this underhanded method. Billions of isk was made using the exploit they shouldn't be able to keep it.
Millie Clode Amarr Red Federation	Posted - 2010.09.22 08:31:00 - [97] It's really very simple. If you can be seen on a killmail using the module in question on a friendly/fleet member in the system type in question, then clearly YOU were attempting to break the game mechanics even if the target of your misdeed isn't (although if the killmail shows he/she had the module in question fitted also, there are grounds to say he/she was probably up to the same mischief). I have to say it is quite a neat trick though, even if it is a ZOMG EVIL EXPLOIT!!!1! ---------- Who, me?
Typhado3 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.09.22 08:56:00 - [98] I think we need to think in greys here. It's not a case of ban or get off scott free there's a fair few intermediates that ccp can easily use such as massive fines or temporary bans. I think CCP need to look at the situation decide on the severity of the exploit; how obvious was it, should we have known, how much of an advantage did it give. Once they analyse that they then need to come up with an appropriate punishment and to look into who needs to get hit with what punishment. The laws of this game are made by ccp as far as I see they've covered themselves from a legal standpoint so they are free to make up whatever laws they want regardless of rl rules. Now I know some will say CCP being able to make up rules is evil but suppose for a second CCP actually care about eve and want whats best for it and by extension whats best for the players of eve. Rather than try and force the guilty or innocent absolutes on them and "we aren't 100% sure they didn't know" we can't touch them give CCP a little slack. And if your worried about using exploits "use your brain". Judge the risks of using the bug/exploit/mechanic and how likely it is it's gonna be an exploit and how sever and exploit is it. I believe we'll be better if we assume players have at least a basic enough understanding of the game to steer away from exploits, rather than assume players have the IQ of plankton. A few innocents will no doubt get caught by this but by using variable punishments based on the severity/obviousness/effect of the bug you shouldn't recieve to hard a punishment for accidental exploits. If someone was using an extremely obvious exploit but was extremely stupid and didn't realise it, the ban is a game mechanic no different from accidently deleting your character due to stupidity. tl;dr for the love of god don't bring that lawyer bull**** into eve ------------------------------ God is an afk cloaker
Zagdul Gallente Shadowed Command Fatal Ascension	Posted - 2010.09.22 09:43:00 - [99] Originally by: Sexy Suzie Edited by: Sexy Suzie on 22/09/2010 02:10:41 Im interested what if anything will happen with the billions in isk this exploiting corp was able to generate using this underhanded method. Billions of isk was made using the exploit they shouldn't be able to keep it. This is my only issue. Let the players stay in EVE, but do the research and get a bit of an estimate on how much this corp/alliance gained isk wise using this exploit. I'm sure the logs in EVE won't backdate too far, however, finding a rough estimate of how often this was used over the past month with which characters. Take this number and multiply it based on when they received their response back in February. Deduct this amount from each offending person then let them decide if they want to continue playing EVE or not. Someone good with math who knows how much an average day of ratting in a C6 is worth. Also, DOTLAN does a thing where it shows how many rats were killed in a system for the past 24 hours. Is this data logged anywhere?
Lemmy Kravitz	Posted - 2010.09.22 11:16:00 - [100] Cheaters, sploiters, hax. Ban em all, let god sort em out later. Funny thing is, I have no problem with people who cheat in life. They do so and there is an implicit risk involved i.e. Pain, Death, or Jail. So I have no real problem with people who cheat at life. Cheating at a game on the other hand really really bothers me. I don't care if it's a gambling game, or something as simple as the game of Battleship. If I catch you cheating while we play a game I come across the table, and make you pay for your troubles. In video games there is very little one can do, so it bothers me even more than what a normal game cheater does. My recommendation. anyone caught cheating, sploiting, hax.. set accounts to -10bil -10security and give the account a 1 month ban. That way they can't even sell the account. And that's for the first offense. Second offense just perma ban. Simple rule in game and life is this, if it smells like cheating, tastes like cheating, feels like cheating. It's very likely cheating.

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