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Sarah Norbulk Dawn of a new Empire The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.09.28 02:08:00 - [151] Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 28/09/2010 02:03:01 Then why don't you understand the basics of what's important in your specialized tackle? Maybe its because you spend too much time obsessing over your measly 16 billion ISK pwnmobile. See, now you just sound petty and jealous.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.09.28 02:12:00 - [152] Originally by: Sarah Norbulk See, now you just sound petty and jealous. Actually, I'm pointing out how absurd it is for you to tell me about your "16 billion ISK investment". 16 billion isn't that much (< 100 hours of grinding, completely disregarding potential market tomfoolery) and furthermore ISK isn't a license to have a virtually unkillable pwnmobile. AND you didn't answer the question. Why are you so out of touch with sub capital combat as to think its more important to have a HIC than an Arazu? Why should low sec gangs always fly around with at least 3 HICs and 2 Logistics? Why should SC pilots get a free pass in low sec? -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
Sig Sour	Posted - 2010.09.28 02:16:00 - [153] Originally by: Liang Nuren ...furthermore ISK isn't a license to have a virtually unkillable pwnmobile. So no 100% resists Rifter for 250b?
Anti Kondor Minmatar Enterprise Estonia Session Changes	Posted - 2010.09.28 02:19:00 - [154] For that isk you can have my cat ---------- Try not to take life too seriously, no one gets out alive anyway.
MukkBarovian	Posted - 2010.09.28 02:23:00 - [155] Edited by: MukkBarovian on 28/09/2010 02:24:59 Originally by: Kail Storm As said by others I didnt come up with stacking Idea but there would be differant catagories so meta gaming in the situation you described wouldnt work and infact only free up other Gang as you are now doing ** DPS to them, also for every problem there is a work around** but I truly believe that our system is broken and worked with 10k members on eve But not 50k at a Time or 150k actives in 3 timeznes. I am pretty sure I could workaround any scenario you put forward to reduce total possible number of locks or to stacking nerf damage. Obviously that scenario assumed the simplest kind of stacking nerf. The problem with locking or damage stacking nerfs is that the server cannot diferentiate between who is a friend and who is an enemy. It can check blue standings yes, but there are work arounds. Like NOSI Not Orange Shoot It. An apropriate blob nerf will make EVE combat better, but the core problem is the relationship between supercapitols. There are only 4 kinds. There is no rock-paper-scissor counter system. Dreadnoughts have a pretty minor role in the game today. One thing or the other should probably be addressed. And I personally find it a bit suprising that supercapitols don't have to worry about an underequiped gang holding them long enough for reinforcements while every other kind of ship in the game does. Its not a bad thing. - Its just counterintuitive to what people learn about pvp up until they encounter those ship types. [Edit - The core problem this thread is talking about, not the core problem of EVE.]
Sig Sour	Posted - 2010.09.28 02:27:00 - [156] Edited by: Sig Sour on 28/09/2010 02:30:59 Originally by: Anti Kondor For that isk you can have my cat I don't want your cat, I want god mode in Eve and it really doesn't matter how much it costs cause I'm willing to pay it. *oh and its balanced cause i had to pay a lot for it, just to put that fire out before it starts.
Irae Ragwan	Posted - 2010.09.28 02:35:00 - [157] Originally by: MukkBarovian And I personally find it a bit suprising that supercapitols don't have to worry about an underequiped gang holding them long enough for reinforcements while every other kind of ship in the game does. Its not a bad thing. - Its just counterintuitive to what people learn about pvp up until they encounter those ship types. This, in a nutshell. You can invest billions into other ships that represent less than a quarter of the fleet capacity an SC delivers and it can be pointed by any member of the enemy fleet. There shouldn't be a magical number in billions of isk to make something point-immune from anything besides HICs because it simply doesn't hold water on the risk-reward scale. It's a step up in survivability that's far beyond the comparatively small jump in price (considering if you dropped a carrier instead of an sc your chances of loosing it go up 100 fold) and it's simply way out of line. I really dislike the comparison to the dread fleet as though a ton of dreads years ago was somehow an equally scary force as today's SC blobs. Dreads are far, far more vulnerable on the offensive than SCs. There's almost no comparison at all really aside from the fact neither are sub-caps.
Sarah Norbulk Dawn of a new Empire The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.09.28 02:35:00 - [158] Originally by: Liang Nuren Actually, I'm pointing out how absurd it is for you to tell me about your "16 billion ISK investment". 16 billion isn't that much (< 100 hours of grinding, completely disregarding potential market tomfoolery) and furthermore ISK isn't a license to have a virtually unkillable pwnmobile. AND you didn't answer the question. Why are you so out of touch with sub capital combat as to think its more important to have a HIC than an Arazu? Why should low sec gangs always fly around with at least 3 HICs and 2 Logistics? Why should SC pilots get a free pass in low sec? -Liang Nobody says you have to engage a 'roaming' supercarrier as you put it. They are slow as balls and you can burn out of point range relatively easy. Expecting your 5 man gang to effectively counter any possible scenario is ludicris. Like it or not EvE is a MMO and you need people to fill rolls. I said that if you wanted to go supercap hunting in lowsec the tools are in place for those with the resources and orginization. Ofc, from how you describe the lowsec community it sounds like you reside there because you can't cut it in an actual cooperative environment.
Siiee Recycled Heroes	Posted - 2010.09.28 02:39:00 - [159] Edited by: Siiee on 28/09/2010 02:42:47 Originally by: Dethmourne Silvermane I can't believe my semi-troll targeting limit post is still being argued about It's amazing the sort of things that people will honestly think is even remotely a good idea :/ Originally by: Sarah Norbulk So, you think that your 5 man gang should be able to tackle and hold down a 16b is investment while you're backup, which consists of a a bunch of unorganised loose knit aquaintances tries to wrangle up enough ships to actually kill it. How does that not sound absurd to you. What's absurd is that you think it should be safe. It's the same reason that frigates can scramble battleships. That 7mil worth of meta-fit rifters can tackle a 140 mil isk raven long enough for someone to go grab some dps and slowboat some 30km thru deadspace to get into blaster range. If a rag tag group of loosely affiliated pirates can hold your unsupported supercap down long enough to drum up the dps to kill you, that's just eves pecking order in practice. If you drop a supper unsupported a loosely organized group of ratters should be able to tackle and kill you IMO. And if you were supported, and they managed to trash your support before pinning you down and waiting for every rifter pilot within 20 jumps to come ***** on your mail then they outsmarted you and your super-cap kill is their prize.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.09.28 02:47:00 - [160] Originally by: Sarah Norbulk Nobody says you have to engage a 'roaming' supercarrier as you put it. They are slow as balls and you can burn out of point range relatively easy. What will really happen here is that my 5 man gang will lose 1-2 people to a SC hotdrop unless we're really lucky. Quote: Expecting your 5 man gang to effectively counter any possible scenario is ludicris. I didn't ask for my 5 man gang to counter any possible scenario. Quote: Like it or not EvE is a MMO and you need people to fill rolls. I said that if you wanted to go supercap hunting in lowsec the tools are in place for those with the resources and orginization. I haven't denied that Eve is a role based game. In fact, I seem to remember educating you a bit on the proper ships to fill each role. Quote: Ofc, from how you describe the lowsec community it sounds like you reside there because you can't cut it in an actual cooperative environment. Ooooh, burrrrrrnnnn! Actually, I reside there because trying to squeeze 3000 people onto the same grid is the best way that 0.0 alliances know how to fight, and frankly I find that to be terribly boring. Probably because grid doesn't ever load and the server crashes, but hey... that's how you super awesome end game PVP'ers like to play! Go you! Quote: Edit: I drop 16 carriers on your 5 BS, do any of them die. No. I drop 100 BS on your 5 BS do I die. No. In all cicumstances your 5 BS got ganked by a superior force. Making supercaps tacklable isn't gonna change the fact that if you field a superior fleet than you win handedly. Here, let me repeat this for you: Why are you so out of touch with sub capital combat as to think its more important to have a HIC than an Arazu? Why should low sec gangs always fly around with at least 3 HICs and 2 Logistics? Why should SC pilots get a free pass in low sec? Just because its a 16 billion ISK pwnmobile doesn't mean that you should get a free pass. -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog

Irae Ragwan	Posted - 2010.09.28 02:47:00 - [161] Originally by: Sarah Norbulk Edit: I drop 16 carriers on your 5 BS, do any of them die. No. I drop 100 BS on your 5 BS do I die. No. In all cicumstances your 5 BS got ganked by a superior force. Making supercaps tacklable isn't gonna change the fact that if you field a superior fleet than you win handedly. I think you're missing the point. 3bil isk marauder 'roams' into a lowsec system. A couple rifters can point it and it will die easily to less than half a dozen cheapie ships. 5bil isk dread/carrier 'roams' into a lowsec system. A couple bc's point it and it will die easily to a few more subcaps. Again, much cheaper ships tacking and killing. 15bil isk SC 'roams' into a lowsec system. Everything must run the hell away unless there are hics and logistics plus a small fleet of caps for the take-down. In the first two examples, because the (idiot) pilot in the expensive ship was alone, he was popped by superior numbers getting the jump on him and even if he killed all but one of his attackers before he died, he still lost far more. In the last example, it took nearly the value of the victim's ship just to bring it down, and without the ideal fleet composition to both keep it pointed it had every chance to get away unscathed.
Sarah Norbulk Dawn of a new Empire The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.09.28 02:53:00 - [162] Edited by: Sarah Norbulk on 28/09/2010 02:54:29 Originally by: Siiee What's absurd is that you think it should be safe. It's the same reason that frigates can scramble battleships. That 7mil worth of meta-fit rifters can tackle a 140 mil isk raven long enough for someone to go grab some dps and slowboat some 30km thru deadspace to get into blaster range. If a rag tag group of loosely affiliated pirates can hold your unsupported supercap down long enough to drum up the dps to kill you, that's just eves pecking order in practice. And if you were supported, and they managed to trash your support before pinning you down and waiting for every rifter pilot within 20 jumps to come ***** on your mail then they outsmarted you and your super-cap kill is their prize. If you actually read what Liang said she said that she wanted to make supercarriers tacklable in conjunction with reducing HP. One or the other would be fine, but removing EWar immunity wouldn't fix proliforation in 0.0 while lowering HP would. It would also make it viable for smaller lowsec entities to hotdrop supercaps. Edit: Quote fail
Sig Sour	Posted - 2010.09.28 02:57:00 - [163] Ill spend 16 bil on a HIC with 100% resists and 50k scripted points. Also willing to spend a couple trillion isk on a gun to fit to that HIC that sends people back to the login screen with 3 open character slots on their account. Because I worked hard for it, it is balanced, so no ****ing complaints.
Sarah Norbulk Dawn of a new Empire The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.09.28 03:01:00 - [164] Edited by: Sarah Norbulk on 28/09/2010 03:02:03 Originally by: Liang Nuren Here, let me repeat this for you: Why are you so out of touch with sub capital combat as to think its more important to have a HIC than an Arazu? Why should low sec gangs always fly around with at least 3 HICs and 2 Logistics? Why should SC pilots get a free pass in low sec? Just because its a 16 billion ISK pwnmobile doesn't mean that you should get a free pass. -Liang HICs are superior when engageing under sentry fire. An arazu points an amarr BS under sentries, the arazu will die insanely fast. The HIC can stick around and keep point. Edit: So I really fail at quotes
Irae Ragwan	Posted - 2010.09.28 03:02:00 - [165] Originally by: Sarah Norbulk If you actually read what Liang said she said that she wanted to make supercarriers tacklable in conjunction with reducing HP. One or the other would be fine, but removing EWar immunity wouldn't fix proliforation in 0.0 while lowering HP would. It would also make it viable for smaller lowsec entities to hotdrop supercaps. Edit: Quote fail Small lowsec entities hotdrop supercaps? Also, removing ewar immunity would kill off a -lot- of supercaps that are currently escaping 0.0 skirmishes. Combined with a moderate EHP nerf and they might just be brough in line.
Sarah Norbulk Dawn of a new Empire The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.09.28 03:05:00 - [166] Originally by: Irae Ragwan Small lowsec entities hotdrop supercaps? Also, removing ewar immunity would kill off a -lot- of supercaps that are currently escaping 0.0 skirmishes. Combined with a moderate EHP nerf and they might just be brough in line. LOL. The only thing saving supercaps in 0.0 skirmishes is raw EHP to survive incoming DPS until they disappear from logging. The CO2 Nyx was killed with just 2 dictors and a HIC tackling.
Irae Ragwan	Posted - 2010.09.28 03:16:00 - [167] Originally by: Sarah Norbulk Edit: I said smaller, not small. There's a difference. I haven't been in lowsec in a while, but last time I hung out there there were a few medium sized corps with small cap fleets. You'll have to enlighten me there. I'm quite familiar with most of the lowsec entities in caldari, minmatar, and some of amarr lowsec regions and there are only a very few who have SCs, most of whom are affiliated with sov. aliances. I do know quite a few lowsec alliances with a small cap ship fleet, but most of them are too terrified of Nyx drops (rightly so) to use them.
Sig Sour	Posted - 2010.09.28 03:18:00 - [168] Originally by: Sarah Norbulk HICs are superior when engageing under sentry fire. An arazu points an amarr BS under sentries, the arazu will die insanely fast. The HIC can stick around and keep point. I have a guardian that says otherwise.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.09.28 03:18:00 - [169] Originally by: Sarah Norbulk HICs are superior when engageing under sentry fire. An arazu points an amarr BS under sentries, the arazu will die insanely fast. The HIC can stick around and keep point. I'm not sure that actually follows. I've tackled 3 Amarr battleships under sentry fire and didn't die... but hey what do I know? Also, I notice that you didn't answer the next two questions... you keep skipping out on the most important one: Why should SC pilots get a free pass in low sec? -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
Siiee Recycled Heroes	Posted - 2010.09.28 03:18:00 - [170] Why is it either or? If losing immunity wouldn't effect null then why is it bad to do. And why would an EHP reduction work where it's most dangerous in nullsec, but if lowsec were made more dangerous (but still not equally so) then all of a sudden it's a no go? That is a confusing ass sentence, I hope make sense to anyone other than me :p

Sarah Norbulk Dawn of a new Empire The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.09.28 03:27:00 - [171] Originally by: Sig Sour I have a guardian that says otherwise. Just ask Liang, you shouldn't need a Guardian to roam around lowsec.
Irae Ragwan	Posted - 2010.09.28 03:29:00 - [172] Originally by: Sarah Norbulk Originally by: Sig Sour I have a guardian that says otherwise. Just ask Liang, you shouldn't need a Guardian to roam around lowsec. Avoiding argument, best argument?
Siiee Recycled Heroes	Posted - 2010.09.28 03:32:00 - [173] A guardian has far more utility than just countering (and it's not even really a counter) super caps. Actually, some might say that in a lowsec gang planning to spend any amount of time on gate or station that a logistics ship would be something that you would expect to use in every engagement.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.09.28 03:33:00 - [174] Originally by: Sarah Norbulk Originally by: Sig Sour I have a guardian that says otherwise. Just ask Liang, you shouldn't need a Guardian to roam around lowsec. I never said that actually, and Parsec is well known to fly with logistics and have good logistics pilots. -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
Sig Sour	Posted - 2010.09.28 03:35:00 - [175] I just need to let you know you are wrong if you think that a HIC is better than an Arazu or Lachesis. At some point in the history of Eve someone at CCP gave a **** about low sec and decided a HIC receiving logistics in low sec would be overpowered and therefore they made it so you could not do this. So you have to break point to receive logistics the second someone starts shooting back at a hic on the gate. In comes a bunch of people who could care less about what goes on in low sec and all of a sudden we have an OMGWTFPWNMOBILES going up against gimped out T2 cruisers. Hics are easy to shake, I promise you it will take more than 5 HICs in the most coordinated gang Eve has ever seen to nab my SC in low sec.
Sig Sour	Posted - 2010.09.28 03:51:00 - [176] Originally by: Liang Nuren Why should SC pilots get a free pass in low sec? I dare someone to answer that.
Kail Storm Caldari	Posted - 2010.09.28 05:28:00 - [177] Originally by: Irae Ragwan Originally by: MukkBarovian And I personally find it a bit suprising that supercapitols don't have to worry about an underequiped gang holding them long enough for reinforcements while every other kind of ship in the game does. Its not a bad thing. - Its just counterintuitive to what people learn about pvp up until they encounter those ship types. This, in a nutshell. You can invest billions into other ships that represent less than a quarter of the fleet capacity an SC delivers and it can be pointed by any member of the enemy fleet. There shouldn't be a magical number in billions of isk to make something point-immune from anything besides HICs because it simply doesn't hold water on the risk-reward scale. It's a step up in survivability that's far beyond the comparatively small jump in price (considering if you dropped a carrier instead of an sc your chances of loosing it go up 100 fold) and it's simply way out of line. I really dislike the comparison to the dread fleet as though a ton of dreads years ago was somehow an equally scary force as today's SC blobs. Dreads are far, far more vulnerable on the offensive than SCs. There's almost no comparison at all really aside from the fact neither are sub-caps. This is the firs tthing you have said that actually isnt just a drive by, And I almost completely agree with, Price canot dictate superiority alone otherwise the rich will never ever be threatened by the poor and thats just not eve. The only thing I disagree with is the Dread comment, When dreads first came out and 95% of the player base didnt have the skills yet or hell even the ISK to risk them in open combat they were almost exactly what SC`s are now, Siege timers didnt matter because there was nothing bigger, only more Dreads so I remember bands of 12-15 Dreads sometimes nightly going to POS`s and bashing them totally un afraid, and if they were in bigger alli all the owers could do was try and pop them. Dreads were the OP`d ones, now days everyone has a Dread so they arent special except maybe Hisec ones. But I remember so much whinning about BS`s being useless now that the Dreads were here and how the Moros was just a WTFPWN Mobile and had no equal etc. IMO the ides I like the most so far, are using S Cap cyno`s that can only mount on Cap Ships and have the modules cost 200 mil+ so that the Gank better damn well be worth it, hell most the CH Ganks I saw could have been done with Carriers but it was just as easy to drop SC`s and be done in a few Secs, that isnt right, Since the SC Crowd likes price so much maybe add some more with expensive Cyno`s who almost assuredly will die. Laslty I wish CCP would have made Sansha Dreads/Carriers to specifically counter SC`s somehow, IDK how but might have been nice. Its like Datelines "To catch a predator" where they setup child molesters, after a while the sicko`s started to wonder wether it was worth it to actually try and take advantage becaus in the back of there mind they could be ***d. Maybe a ship that nullifies there bonus`s or some sort of ship that ECM`s the bombers but cuts them off so they dont work..IDK something instead of a Mothership. -------------------------------------------------- "If Eve Was Prn, It would be a Snuff film, First you get screwed then you get killed" -Me
Phoenix vajaa Aliastra	Posted - 2010.09.28 11:08:00 - [178] Edited by: Phoenix vajaa on 28/09/2010 11:10:16 Edited by: Phoenix vajaa on 28/09/2010 11:09:12 I have said it before and its been said before. The problem is not the super caps. ITS THE GOD DAMN BLOB MECHANIC AND TARGET CALLING OF PRIMARYS FOR A ENTIRE BLOB. 15 ON 1 IS NOT FUN GAMEPLAY BE IT IN A SC'S VS DREADS OR BE IT 15 DREADS VS 1 CARRIER. OR 15 CARRIERS VS 1 DREAD. BLOBS PRIMARYING 1 SHIP IS BAD MMMMKAY.
Headerman	Posted - 2010.09.28 12:26:00 - [179] Originally by: Sig Sour Originally by: Liang Nuren Why should SC pilots get a free pass in low sec? I dare someone to answer that. Another super carrier would fix that..
Mannateen	Posted - 2010.09.28 15:55:00 - [180] Honestly, I donÆt necessarily think nerf/boost is the answer for these situations/ships. I personally feel itÆs more a matter two separate issues of economics and player rolls. As it stands now, it is far too easy for individual players to achieve wealth. A solo pilot doing L4Æs or Sanctums can farm enough isk for a fitted carrier in a matter of days, a SC in a matter of weeks (if committed). The economic system in eve itself is quite clever, and works extremely well, however itÆs just the sheer amount of isk being earned, vs afford ability of caps/scÆs and the fact that very little isk is actually removed from the game (via taxÆs, insurances, production, etc). These things are the upper echelon of eve training/equipment and yet they are easily obtained and operated. Fix the economics, adjust production values, youÆll see the costs increase, the use decrease as the potential loss doesnÆt fall in line with potential gain. á Also there is a massive lack of strategy in eve pvp (honestly), as the numbers in a gang increase, the strategy involved decreases. IÆm not suggesting a cap on the overall fleet sizes, but maybe force larger fleets into smaller FC groups. From there IÆd like to see the introduction of actual Rolls into a pvp/fleet environment. Currently, there are a great number of ships that have different rolls in game, logistics, covert opÆs, recon, command, etc. I find it interesting that though the ship types exist, the actual fleet/player rolls do not. Some might argue that the use of command modules would feet the ôrollö suggestion, however those modules and ships donÆt go far enough. It needs to be about player choices, positions and fleet composition. An interesting idea that came to mind as I was reading these posts (specifically the targeting/signature nerf) would be the implementation of such rolls. For example, Fleet A) consists of 100 mixed ships (composition at this point doesnÆt matter), The fleet is then broken into 4 sections of 25, with one û two FC pilots with an FC roll. The roll itself will allow their group of 25 smaller penalties to say things like stacking nerfs, as FCÆs are removed the penalties increase. The penalty increase based on the losses of such skilled pilots will then affect the fleets ability to concentrate fire effectively. Obviously this is a vague example, however when you apply a roll on a player level that effects actual fleet operations and composition, you are then forced to pick and choose multiple targets in a fleet at one time, the new structure also encourages smaller group engagements in a larger fleet environment. This in turn causes less Alpha, the removal of the 100v1v1v1v1à concept, ads more depth to player operations, (can involve more trainable skills for CCP to make $$$ with over time). IÆm not suggesting something as simple as the WoW tank/heal/dps rolls, however the concept remains, allowing players to fit into niche positions in a fleet, that give specific bonuses/penalties to a fleet, ship related fittings, FC, target selection and so on would help a great deal. á Fix the economics, add more depth/player rolls to fleets. á Flame away.



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