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HP Boost for Sub-Super Capitals

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fkingfurious	Posted - 2010.09.24 10:14:00 - [1] At various times in Eve's long history CCP have been compelled to give (large) HP boosts to pretty much every ship class in the game. Everytime they've done this the doom-mongers usually claim it's the end for x/y/z ship/game mechanic/kitten but they've basically always been wrong. The changes were always made to keep ships viable in the ever shifting landscape that is Eve PvP and generally with the goal of prolonging it. I think it's time for a similar assessment to made of Carriers and Dreadnoughts. These days there are that many Supers about that non-super capitals are rapidly approaching redundant. Carriers are now firmly in the territory where they can expect to be one-volleyed by Super Carriers. Assuming an SC has a volley of approximately 150,000 (10,000dps * 15sec RoF) and most Carriers will struggle to manage 2,000,000 EHP... well... you can do the maths yourself. 15 Supers pretty much guarantess instant death for a Carrier. PL I'm looking at you. Dreads are just crap. The only thing they can do that an SC doesnt do a lot better is shoot a POS. And they can only do that when theres no chance of a counter drop. These days siege mode is a death sentence (it was always a risky proposition anyway). Dreads simply cannot standup to the kind of punishment dealt out by Supers. But heres the real kicker. With I-Hubs coming in at 112,500,000 shield HP, SBU's having similar EHP to a large POS and outposts/conq stations (of which there now appears to be at least 3 in every constellation) being tougher again no-one who actually wants to complete a Sov attack while they're still young enough to recognise they're own children has a choice in the matter, and the last thing anyone wants to see is a reduction in the amount of DPS that can be thrown about cos we all want to get this tedious reinforcing business done as soon as possible. So make our sub-super's tougher and keep them in the fight. Carriers can already fit well enough to RR through SC DPS. 3 Carriers should withstand the damage of one Super. Considering the cost ratio involved thats a pretty favourable position for the Carriers. But 45 Carriers CANNOT survive 15 Supers, they'll just get insta-popped one after the other. Once you hit that magic number thats it for the Carriers and you might as well just leave them at home. Carriers then just need to be strong enough to withstand the alpha and after that fit and tactics and support fleets can play a role in deciding who ultimately wins the fight. As for Dreads I would change the Siege Module so that it gives a significant EHP boost while active be it either by simply adding x % raw HP or by amplifying the effect of resist mods. This way Dreads get a big boost to their siege capabilities whist still being utterly pointless out of siege. Or something like that anyway. Flame on.
Freyya Advanced Planetary Exports Intergalactic Exports Group	Posted - 2010.09.24 10:28:00 - [2] A serious and well thought out post in my EvE forums? RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE. This will be dealt with! Anyways good post, agreed and it will be moved to features and ideas forum. ___________ NOW COLLECTING ISD AND CCP AUTOGRAPHS It'll be worth something someday. -Rauth Pink is the color of passion xxx Shadow
BIZZAROSTORMY	Posted - 2010.09.24 12:06:00 - [3] Agreed. Dreads have become absolutely useless. People prefer to shoot for hours with BS and Bc's rather than attract the inevitable drop when using dreads in siege. Out of siege they have no purpose, no point, no role.

CCP Navigator C C P C C P Alliance	Posted - 2010.09.24 12:09:00 - [4] Moved from General Discussion to Ships & Modules. Navigator Senior Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online

Dr Fighter	Posted - 2010.09.24 12:10:00 - [5] a super solution to a super problem. make supers use their own special super cyno that takes 30 seconds or somthing before it opens the beacon. Or have supers unable to drop onto target cynos, instead appear at random SS and have to warp the rest. The problem isnt the carriers hp or the supers damage or even range, its cynos and hot dorpping. totally my opinion tho.
Malcanis Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.09.24 12:17:00 - [6] Have supercaps require a "capital cynosural field generator" to jump to that can only be fitted on a capital class ship. That would at minimum mean that carriers always had a role, and it would significantly increase the potential cost of cynoing in scaps. It costs you a carrier every time you do a "shoot and scoot", plus you have to get the carrier itself in to system. (ofc POS cyno gens would still work for supercaps) Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
Kiree Chancel Phantom Squad	Posted - 2010.09.24 13:04:00 - [7] So all these HP buffs youre tossing out to sub-supers... How will this effect carriers and dreads fighting other carriers and dreads? Just makes it a longer slugfest, seems to me. (with more time for the inevitable super hotdrop). Making all the numbers bigger doesn't fix anything. It just makes the problems... bigger. -- Originally by: CCP Capslock OH GOD THE TESTING
SickSeven Simplistic Syndicate	Posted - 2010.09.24 14:13:00 - [8] I think the OP had a really good post. Well thought out and I liked the proposed solution, until I read some of the replies. I now agree that it is not an issue of HP and dps per say. It is actually more of an issue of how easy it is for 10+ SC gangs to move around and gank lesser ships. You died at the fittings screen, you just hand't realized it yet - Mr. Cue
fkingfurious	Posted - 2010.09.24 14:42:00 - [9] Tbh with you I'm unsure if Carriers really need a significant boost myself, however I AM sure that an environment where they will be reliably insta-popped is probably not a good thing. It's not that far off with the sheer, and ever increasing, proliferation of Supers. Dreadnoughts on the other hand unquestionably need something done to them. A 30 second cyno delay isn't really much of a hinderance when your target is immobilised for 10 minutes and when it's siege cycle does end is unable to effectively defend itself. After all it's not like you get to the end of your seige cycle and magically get a "Get out of the **** Free" Module. Now obviously I'm not suggesting that Dreadnoughts be unkillable but a Dreadnought IN SIEGE is (in theory) good for 2 things. Shooting structures and other Capital ships. In practice Dreads are useful only for shooting Large POS. Against SBU's,TCU's,I-Hubs and stations SC are clearly the way forward and in a Capital fight a Dreadnought in siege mode will generally die so bloody fast it won't achieve anything. In siege mode a Dread should have a chance to live long enough to make some impact on the battlefield before it does in a fire. Unlike all other Caps, Titans included (KB's are littered with Logistics dying to DD) Dreads are only effective in combat against other Capitals, but in those fights their life expectancy is measured in seconds. It sucks.
Marconus Orion D00M. Northern Coalition.	Posted - 2010.09.24 14:47:00 - [10] The issue is two things: 1. Due to large coalitions, the ability to field that many super capitals is easy. Very easy. 2. A bigger problem is that capital ship movements are only limited to cheap fuel and a simple cyno. So you will always be in range to easily get hot dropped. And when they do, it will always be a gank. Nerfing NAP coalitions is incredibly hard to do, but steps can be taken to limit it some. I am for what I have suggested before. Slowing down capital ship movement and making them more strategic moves.

fkingfurious	Posted - 2010.09.24 14:59:00 - [11] Reducing the sphere of influence of capitals does indded reduce the possibility of getting hotdropped. However, Sov warfare will still require the application of hundreds of thousands of DPS worth of Capital ships. It may take them longer to get there but when they do the same problem remains f.e.x. Dreads are bleeding pointless. As attackers you will be in drop range. By going out to attack someone you are deliberately putting yourself in range of their forces.
Seriously Bored Minmatar	Posted - 2010.09.24 15:29:00 - [12] Here's a rather extreme idea: Would it break the game if Dreads could go in and out of siege at will, instead of riding out a countdown to DOOM? That might open up some more strategic uses for them, but I haven't explored the negatives for it.
Dr Fighter	Posted - 2010.09.24 15:33:00 - [13] Originally by: Seriously Bored Here's a rather extreme idea: Would it break the game if Dreads could go in and out of siege at will, instead of riding out a countdown to DOOM? That might open up some more strategic uses for them, but I haven't explored the negatives for it. perhaps only a cooldown for deactivating it, takes say a few minutes to stop. We wouldnt want 20 supers being replaced by 50 dreads and doing the exact same thing now would we :p
SickSeven Simplistic Syndicate	Posted - 2010.09.24 15:36:00 - [14] Originally by: Seriously Bored Here's a rather extreme idea: Would it break the game if Dreads could go in and out of siege at will, instead of riding out a countdown to DOOM? That might open up some more strategic uses for them, but I haven't explored the negatives for it. Well one negative is what will happen when triage is on the field: the dreads will siege until their tank is about to break then they will exit, get repped up, and enter siege again. But is that really game breaking? You died at the fittings screen, you just hand't realized it yet - Mr. Cue
SickSeven Simplistic Syndicate	Posted - 2010.09.24 15:39:00 - [15] Originally by: Dr Fighter Originally by: Seriously Bored Here's a rather extreme idea: Would it break the game if Dreads could go in and out of siege at will, instead of riding out a countdown to DOOM? That might open up some more strategic uses for them, but I haven't explored the negatives for it. perhaps only a cooldown for deactivating it, takes say a few minutes to reactivate. We wouldnt want 20 supers being replaced by 50 dreads and doing the exact same thing now would we :p Fixed ;) You died at the fittings screen, you just hand't realized it yet - Mr. Cue
Seriously Bored Minmatar	Posted - 2010.09.24 15:40:00 - [16] Edited by: Seriously Bored on 24/09/2010 15:43:19 Originally by: Dr Fighter perhaps only a cooldown for deactivating it, takes say a few minutes to stop. We wouldnt want 20 supers being replaced by 50 dreads and doing the exact same thing now would we :p Very true. It seems to me though that the biggest problems with Dreads is that they're dead in the water once they hit that Siege button. If it were reduced to say, a minute, I imagine you would be able to field them in a wider range of circumstances. The whole hotdrop/counter hotdrop thing would get messier, and there's no guarantee your target is staying on the field once they get wind of you... But if previous Dread tactics aren't working because they have to stay put and get alpha'd by the new big bad, why not increase their flexibility instead of going further down the HP/DPS creep route once again? ED: Originally by: SickSeven Well one negative is what will happen when triage is on the field: the dreads will siege until their tank is about to break then they will exit, get repped up, and enter siege again. But is that really game breaking? That's an interesting thought. I imagine if you reduce the Siege timer, but NOT the Triage timer, things could get very interesting though. That actually sounds like more strategy in the game, which always sounds good to me. Of course, I am no capital expert. This is just a random thought I had.
Righteous Flame	Posted - 2010.09.24 17:36:00 - [17] perhaps this can be ameliorated by giving the support fleet more options for dealing with the SCs. it shouldn't be a fight of only carriers/dreads vs a group of just SCs.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.09.24 17:53:00 - [18] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 24/09/2010 17:53:35 The real answer is to nerf sov HP and supercaps hard. -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
Irae Ragwan	Posted - 2010.09.24 17:57:00 - [19] Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 24/09/2010 17:53:35 The real answer is to nerf sov HP and supercaps hard. -Liang A thousand times this!
Aamrr	Posted - 2010.09.25 00:29:00 - [20] Edited by: Aamrr on 25/09/2010 00:30:31 Edited by: Aamrr on 25/09/2010 00:30:03 Originally by: Irae Ragwan Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 24/09/2010 17:53:35 The real answer is to nerf sov HP and supercaps hard. -Liang A thousand times this! Third order pyramid quote for emphasis. Supercaps need a nerf, and it's high time that people start recognizing it. I furthermore suggest removing the ability to field fighter bombers and remote ECM bursts in lowsec.

Irae Ragwan	Posted - 2010.09.25 00:38:00 - [21] Originally by: Aamrr Edited by: Aamrr on 25/09/2010 00:30:31 Edited by: Aamrr on 25/09/2010 00:30:03 Originally by: Irae Ragwan Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 24/09/2010 17:53:35 The real answer is to nerf sov HP and supercaps hard. -Liang A thousand times this! Third order pyramid quote for emphasis. Supercaps need a nerf, and it's high time that people start recognizing it. I furthermore suggest removing the ability to field fighter bombers and remote ECM bursts in lowsec. This is a wonderful pyramid.
Wrecker Red Signal Seven	Posted - 2010.09.25 00:53:00 - [22] JUST NERF EVERYTHING IT ALL HAS TO GO WRECKER RED GONNA WRECK YO HEAD
Templar Dane Amarrian Retribution	Posted - 2010.09.25 00:57:00 - [23] Originally by: Irae Ragwan Originally by: Aamrr Edited by: Aamrr on 25/09/2010 00:30:31 Edited by: Aamrr on 25/09/2010 00:30:03 Originally by: Irae Ragwan Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 24/09/2010 17:53:35 The real answer is to nerf sov HP and supercaps hard. -Liang A thousand times this! Third order pyramid quote for emphasis. Supercaps need a nerf, and it's high time that people start recognizing it. I furthermore suggest removing the ability to field fighter bombers and remote ECM bursts in lowsec. This is a wonderful pyramid. I too don't have a supercarrier, so it gets my seal of approval.
Portia Uticensis	Posted - 2010.09.25 01:03:00 - [24] Just as I suspected all along, right about the time I got into my SC, someone who didn't have the persistency and diligence to go out and get one (Persistency and Diligence were the names of the 2 Paladins I used simultaneously during the long grind to get the pile of ISK) would campaign zealously to nerf the everloving hell out of them. Well, I can just add it to the list of other things in Eve I missed out on (e.g. T2 BPO lottery ending one week after my first character was able to use good quality R&D agents). Leave SCs alone! Enough with this first shall be last and the last shall be first nonsense! Those who have the shiny toys have them for a reason! They are bitter, twisted souls who control space and are willing to grind for weeks to get them. And if you don't like it, you can go to Russia (which controls the Drone Regions and is a great place to grind ISK for a super cap).
Grimpak Gallente The Whitehound Corporation	Posted - 2010.09.25 01:09:00 - [25] Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 24/09/2010 17:53:35 The real answer is to nerf sov HP and supercaps hard. -Liang I would agree, but wouldn't that make supercaps useless? tbh a solution that can deal with the problem at hand by not simply transferring the title of "superfluous ship of useless uses" from one place to another would be better. --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.09.25 01:14:00 - [26] Originally by: Portia Uticensis Just as I suspected all along, right about the time I got into my SC, someone who didn't have the persistency and diligence to go out and get one (Persistency and Diligence were the names of the 2 Paladins I used simultaneously during the long grind to get the pile of ISK) would campaign zealously to nerf the everloving hell out of them. Cool story bro. The fact that you were able to grind up the ISK for an ALLIANCE SOV ASSET speaks volumes about how easy they are to obtain. Quote: Leave SCs alone! Enough with this first shall be last and the last shall be first nonsense! Those who have the shiny toys have them for a reason! They are bitter, twisted souls who control space and are willing to grind for weeks to get them. And if you don't like it, you can go to Russia (which controls the Drone Regions and is a great place to grind ISK for a super cap). I find it amusing that you think that people who own supercaps 'control space' when in fact you just admitted that you were able to grind up a supercap in a matter of a few weeks. By yourself. Supercaps are a plague, and there are many ways to make them useful alliance assets without making them utterly and completely render all other combat vessels meaningless. -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
Lsohviet	Posted - 2010.09.25 01:48:00 - [27] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Portia Uticensis Just as I suspected all along, right about the time I got into my SC, someone who didn't have the persistency and diligence to go out and get one (Persistency and Diligence were the names of the 2 Paladins I used simultaneously during the long grind to get the pile of ISK) would campaign zealously to nerf the everloving hell out of them. Cool story bro. The fact that you were able to grind up the ISK for an ALLIANCE SOV ASSET speaks volumes about how easy they are to obtain. Quote: Leave SCs alone! Enough with this first shall be last and the last shall be first nonsense! Those who have the shiny toys have them for a reason! They are bitter, twisted souls who control space and are willing to grind for weeks to get them. And if you don't like it, you can go to Russia (which controls the Drone Regions and is a great place to grind ISK for a super cap). I find it amusing that you think that people who own supercaps 'control space' when in fact you just admitted that you were able to grind up a supercap in a matter of a few weeks. By yourself. Supercaps are a plague, and there are many ways to make them useful alliance assets without making them utterly and completely render all other combat vessels meaningless. -Liang 1000x this. How much further are we from a point where people are able to grind up their own titans by themselves?
Irae Ragwan	Posted - 2010.09.25 02:09:00 - [28] Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 24/09/2010 17:53:35 The real answer is to nerf sov HP and supercaps hard. -Liang I would agree, but wouldn't that make supercaps useless? tbh a solution that can deal with the problem at hand by not simply transferring the title of "superfluous ship of useless uses" from one place to another would be better. They never had a defined use.
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2010.09.25 02:56:00 - [29] Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 24/09/2010 17:53:35 The real answer is to nerf sov HP and supercaps hard. -Liang pretty sure I said something like that a while ago. then again I think I also dibsed being the one who plays the fiddle as 0.0 burns
SickSeven Simplistic Syndicate	Posted - 2010.09.25 03:58:00 - [30] Originally by: Irae Ragwan They never had a defined use. "stuff"... You made a lot of good points, the problem is nothing is ever going to just be removed from the game. You know, as a business, CCP is NOT going to remove SCs from the game. So we have to find a role or a balance. I think the best idea so far is that Super Capitals will require a Capital Cynosural field generator. Basically, make so you can't field Super Caps unless you field Caps first. I think that alone would do wonders for the current problems, but that is just a bandaid(a good one though). We still need to find a role for them, besides wtfbbqpwnsaucedmg mobiles. You died at the fittings screen, you just hand't realized it yet - Mr. Cue



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