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Voith
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Posted - 2010.10.10 01:36:00 -
[211]
The problem isn't normal capitals being weak, it is Super caps being overpowered.
Nerf Fighterbombers.
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Shade IX
Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams
Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2010.10.10 23:27:00 -
[212]
Edited by: Shade IX on 10/10/2010 23:33:16
 Originally by: Voith
The problem isn't normal capitals being weak, it is Super caps being overpowered.
Nerf Fighterbombers.
Bring their DPS down to about 4k and 5k for a Nyx, that may make things better. any more DPS and they tip the scales.
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Kail Storm
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.10.10 23:48:00 -
[213]
Seems to me FB`s DMG isnt to much, Its the Tank size of the SC`s and there ability to be effective against enemies of all size.
For Example, normally in Eve if you are in a BS you do poorly vs a Fast tackler like say the Dram, and relly on Drones to kill them, you do 80ish DPS with warriors. This means the Dram can stick for a while, at least long enough for a gang to warp in and eat the BS.
This Rock Paper Scissors is what Eve is about.
Now Take a Hic Versus a SC as same example as BS Vs Frig tackler, the MOM launches 20 Warrior 2`s which is 400ish DPS all hitting for full DMG against him, or better yet 800 DMG from Med Drones all hitting for full DMG, Then you get 1400 DPS from Heavy Drones. So all in all SC`s can kill Frig-BS targets as effective as any 1 ship in the game. This is for the 3 un-DMG bonused/Not Nyx.
400 Light Drone DMG is as good as any small ship killer in game, Peeps bragg about the 200 DPS the AML Cara does vs frigs and that is Dwarfed by this.
800 Med Drone DMG Beats any Cruiser sized ships and applies alot of its DMG to cruiser and above. This is by far the best Weapon there is against Cruisers in the game.
1400 For Large Drones is equal to a Vindicator`s DMG but doesnt need the 15k optimal but 60k. And instead of the 170k Buffer you have to kill 30 mil EHP, alot more Zero`s.
The Titan Can DD ships but relly`s on Cap Battry`s as its steady DMG making them useless to smaller ships, Dreads cant hit smaller ships well, and when Moros could it got Nerf`d. Carriers can but then again 15 RR BS`s can kill a Carrier, you need 15 Dreads to Kill a Mom and still it will kill alot of them before Dying.
I like SUper Hi DPS versus Caps like FB`s give but the EHP seems steep, its a 8x increase in DMG from a Carrier but a 25x Boost in EHP.
But in reality its escape ability`s wether it be 20 Light Drones to kil la Dic before its logi`s can help, or its HUGELY POWERFUL ECM Burst, Mom`s dont have to commit like Titans while sporting same tank and even more DPS.
Unless they give a ship soon to be the Bane of SC`s or make them more easily Tackled like others have said, Titans will be useless minus the Jump Bridge.
My biggest Concern is CCP never being open about major changes that need being done till the very last minute, now that Moms are so powerful, peeps are gonna buy em, Im afraid 90 Days before they nerf em they will make the announcment and people that could have used ISK for something else or have some in cookers will wish they had made other choices.
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"If Eve Was P*rn, It would be a Snuff film, First you get screwed then you get killed"
-Me
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Hanz Landou
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Posted - 2010.10.10 23:57:00 -
[214]
So basically:
SC's are fine.
SC's need to be nerfed.
Don't nerf SC's because I have/will have one soon.
Amidoinitrite?
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.10.11 01:08:00 -
[215]
Originally by: Hanz Landou
So basically:
SC's are fine.
Don't nerf SC's because I have/will have one soon.
Amidoinitrite?
Not quite. Those two were redundant.
-Liang
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I likegirls
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.10.11 03:47:00 -
[216]
Horrible idea. Super Capitals are much more expensive so why should a group of them not be able to kill a group of caps easily? 15 super carriers cost about 250 billion isk at reasonable prices. 45 carriers? not even 20% of that cost.
Dreads are fine as they are. Everyone and their mother owns a super carrier anyway.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.10.11 04:42:00 -
[217]
Originally by: I likegirls
Horrible idea. Super Capitals are much more expensive so why should a group of them not be able to kill a group of caps easily? 15 super carriers cost about 250 billion isk at reasonable prices. 45 carriers? not even 20% of that cost.
Dreads are fine as they are. Everyone and their mother owns a super carrier anyway.
A pimped faction cruiser is much more expensive than a cruiser, but 3 cruisers are still going to wipe the floor with it. Cost is meant to have diminishing returns - otherwise I'd be able to buy 100% resists for my Vindicator.
-Liang
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Kail Storm
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.10.11 05:23:00 -
[218]
Edited by: Kail Storm on 11/10/2010 05:33:50
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: I likegirls
Horrible idea. Super Capitals are much more expensive so why should a group of them not be able to kill a group of caps easily? 15 super carriers cost about 250 billion isk at reasonable prices. 45 carriers? not even 20% of that cost.
Dreads are fine as they are. Everyone and their mother owns a super carrier anyway.
A pimped faction cruiser is much more expensive than a cruiser, but 3 cruisers are still going to wipe the floor with it. Cost is meant to have diminishing returns - otherwise I'd be able to buy 100% resists for my Vindicator.
-Liang
I totally agree Cost=Carebears owning PVP.
Price meant to slow peoples use on things, IE I cant use T3`s in combat all the time because I cant afford to lose it.
Price is only 1 of many game balance issues, and in the large picture a minor 1, actually the SC itself is secondary to the cost of having to use another account to fully use one, and a 50 mil+SP toon worth at least 12 Bil ISK.
Hell in this game 3 of any ships in any Subcap catagorey can take 1 of any other. Why should Caps to Super Caps be differant?
1 Faction Golem or Nightmare is killed easily by Ham Drake with ECM Drones, 1 Scimmi and a Nuet/herd Domi all totaling, 200 mil isk verse a 3 Bil NM or a 2 Bil Golem.
You name any 1 Ship Ill give you 3 way cheaper ones that will PWN it.
So when you talk about 10 Dreads not killing the SC in a fast enough time that they all die there is a problem.
Lol everyone has a SC? Really that is lol PL has what 20 30 maybe?
Also if you dont think Dreads are broken, I think you wont see reason.
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"If Eve Was P*rn, It would be a Snuff film, First you get screwed then you get killed"
-Me
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Atius Tirawa
Minmatar
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2010.10.11 10:38:00 -
[219]
around and around -
SCs need a dps nurf through fighter bomber nurf - they should have a huge tank, they should have good logistics, and e-wa immunity is fine. . . but the massiv dps they do is what makes dreads redudnant. why would anyone fly a dread when you should be saving up for an SC (and dropping 2 bil per dread adds up fast).
anyway, evey cost based argument is bunk. so those who make that argumnt are either in an SC or are about to be in one. Saddly, i am saving up for one, but its gonna be a short life due to the race. . .but it will be the best looking.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.10.11 16:14:00 -
[220]
Originally by: Kail Storm
Lol everyone has a SC? Really that is lol PL has what 20 30 maybe?
I dunno man... someone streamed PL taking down a tower and they had to scroll their overview for a while just to get through the Aeons... and that's just one type of supercarrier. I'd say that any reasonable alliance/coalition can field 50-100 supercaps no problem.
-Liang
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Vissious
Caldari
Dark Fusion Industries
Beyond Ascension
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Posted - 2010.10.11 16:21:00 -
[221]
Perhaps make carriers and Scarriers "mirror" there RL counterparts, which can dominate large areas of space via there fighter fleets, but are horribly fragile and require additional support and protection at all times to avoid catostrophy? Furthermore, place it at the "top" of the hot-drop food-chain; it can drop other ships into it's immediate vicinity, but it's too big to be pulled by anything else in the game, except for perhaps a Titan, the only other ship-type that trumps it on mass.
Dreadnoughts, by comparison, should be durable, hard-hitting monstrosities...surely? Limited in range, capable of dealing with one target at a time only, but doing so with staggering efficiency (or...brutality).
The point being, these types of ships shouldn't just be sov "I win" buttons. There has to be an inherent gamble when deploying them, which can only pay off when used smartly and tactically.
But I suck at specifics ;)
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"I like my women like I like my coffee: in a plastic cup"
-Eddie Izzard |
Kail Storm
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.10.12 00:19:00 -
[222]
The more I look the more I realize if all SC`s were like the Hel, I think Mom`s would be alot more inline, than with the AEON or NYX
[Hel, Buffer]
Shield Power Relay II
Shield Power Relay II
True Sansha Power Diagnostic System
True Sansha Power Diagnostic System
Damage Control II
Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
Vepas' Modified Invulnerability Field
Pith A-Type Photon Scattering Field
Gist X-Type Photon Scattering Field
Pith X-Type Heat Dissipation Field
Pith X-Type Explosion Dampening Field
Remote ECM Burst I
Imperial Navy Heavy Energy Neutralizer
Imperial Navy Heavy Energy Neutralizer
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
Large Core Defence Field Extender II
Large Core Defence Field Extender II
Large Core Defence Field Extender II
Einherji x20
Malleus x22
Bouncer II x22
This baby has 25 mil EHP, with a nice 3500 DPS Tank because the SPR`s I like in the Lows, with 8800 DPS with 22 FB`s.
Compare this to the Nyx at 30 mil EHP but with 12k DPS.
Compare to the Aeon with 43 mil EHP and same 8800 DPS.
I think if we took the Hel`s Stats Now as they are and made the Aeon/Wyverns tank to suit it with the 25% tank bounus it would basically cut the Mom`s EHP by 40%.
So a Aeon would have 25 mil, a Nyx 15-18 mil, this would make the Mom`s go from larger than Titan tanks to under 20% of a Titan.
I like the gank factor of SC`s but they arent fragile enough, if you want Huge DPS with better GTFO ability thats ok but as above poster said its makes you more fragile, right now SC`s take best of Titan/Dread/ and Carrier with no drawbacks of any, cheaper than Titan while having more DPS and Bigger Tank and no "CoolDown"
So make the Bigger tankers 25 mil EHP rather than 45 mil or 65 while Mindlink`d/titan`d.
25 Mil is like a Large POS, and 10 Dreads could take it Pretty well.
I was condsidering taking Nyx`s DMG to Aeon/Wyv/Hel Dmg as well and having the rest get nerf`d accordingly, For example 12.5k Nyx now would go to 10k and others would go 10k to 8k Tops so since most done use drone controllers a 20 FB SC goes to around 6k DPS and Nyx 9k, cbut it may be to much a nerf with tank.
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"If Eve Was P*rn, It would be a Snuff film, First you get screwed then you get killed"
-Me
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.10.12 04:36:00 -
[223]
Originally by: Kail Storm
[Hel, Buffer]
Shield Power Relay II
Wut?
-Liang
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Bunny4you
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.10.12 08:51:00 -
[224]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Kail Storm
[Hel, Buffer]
Shield Power Relay II
Wut?
-Liang
Actually with Hel`s/Wyverns where you dont really need more Lows SPR`s are great Wyvern gets a 7k Passive tank with 30 mil HP while Hel Gets alkmost 4k with 25 mil.
What would you put in low slots? You already have DC2 PWDIAG, why not add 2 SPR`s and get 4k Passive Tank, while not losing much EHP at all.
Now if he replaced Extender Rigs with purgers or Midslot Hardener for Shield Recharger than hes just an Idiot.
But Shield Tanked Mom`s are great with 1 or 2 SPR`s, brings em from 1-3k Passive tank to 3k-5k alone and only losing a very small fraction of EHP which is made up easily over a 5 min Fight.
I have seen great Passive MOM fits, well buffer/Passive.
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Jesus loves you, Everyone else thinks you are a A** Hole |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.10.12 17:05:00 -
[225]
Originally by: Bunny4you
Actually with Hel`s/Wyverns where you dont really need more Lows SPR`s are great Wyvern gets a 7k Passive tank with 30 mil HP while Hel Gets alkmost 4k with 25 mil.
SPRs kill your cap recharge - that alone is enough reason to never use one. I'd personally go with PDUs or CPRs. Frankly being able to mitigate 3000 DPS at 30% shields just isn't that big of a deal. If you're down to 30% shields you're in some pretty serious trouble anyway.
-Liang
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Kail Storm
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.10.12 17:38:00 -
[226]
Actually the 7k Tank on the Wyvern is massive, its a Dreads worth of passive Tanking, Not to mention that most these fits have enough cap to last 15+Minutes so it really doesnt matter.
Also when you add the say 3-4k average DPS tank of the Wyvern to a RR Supported Scenario the Tank gets exponential, its as much tank as a Cap Shield Booster but perma Runs, and you dont have to waste a slot on the Booster just more Resists.
With support these fits are beasts, but as a solo situation maybe not the best. But with Cap Transfer you are always good. In this case of the Hel losing the 2 SPR`s and adding Faction PDS takeit from 4700 to 3k DPS tank which isnt much and adds 2 mil HP but for Wyvern its a huge differance.
Still my point was if we bring Aeon`s tank inline with current Hel I think SC`s would be alot more Vulnerable, most SC`s I have seen escape have been because they last so long they can recharge Cap to almost full hit the ECM Burst and Jump. If they had 40% less most would have had to Use the Nuets and Smarty+Other Cap hungry mods to fight.
Second way has been Logging, smaller Alli`s cant even gang kill a SC because they will just log. A SC should be way Ezer to kill before the vanishing point. Aeon=Hel`s tank and the rest redone from there.
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"If Eve Was P*rn, It would be a Snuff film, First you get screwed then you get killed"
-Me
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.10.12 18:00:00 -
[227]
Originally by: Kail Storm
Actually the 7k Tank on the Wyvern is massive, its a Dreads worth of passive Tanking, Not to mention that most these fits have enough cap to last 15+Minutes so it really doesnt matter.
The 7k tank on the Wyvern is meaningless because it only exists at 30% shields. If you're at 30% shields the fight has either already been going for a while (eg you're tackled and capped out) or you're taking an enormous amount of damage. Once the **** hits the fan your only concerns are maintaining your cap (to cyno or warp out/cloak) and neuting the HICs face off.
Doing anything that negatively affects your capacitor isn't such an awesome idea.
-Liang
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