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Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.09.27 22:40:00 - [121] Originally by: Sarah Norbulk Supercaps have a lot more staying power and a little more GTFO ability than standard caps. P.S. I fly a Nyx. I underlined the part that's just outright wrong. It isn't a little. -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
Sarah Norbulk Dawn of a new Empire The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.09.27 22:46:00 - [122] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Sarah Norbulk Supercaps have a lot more staying power and a little more GTFO ability than standard caps. P.S. I fly a Nyx. I underlined the part that's just outright wrong. It isn't a little. -Liang Bubbles still hold super caps and they're good for 2 minutes a piece. A couple of well flown suicide dictors can hold down a supercapital fine. Even HICs either bubbles or infinipoints can hold down supercapitals fairly well if well coordinated. The problem isn't tackling a supercapital. It is tackling a supercapital until it dies which is problimatic. This would become less of an issue if supercaps had less HP.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.09.27 22:59:00 - [123] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 27/09/2010 23:00:14 Originally by: Sarah Norbulk Bubbles still hold super caps and they're good for 2 minutes a piece. A couple of well flown suicide dictors can hold down a supercapital fine. Even HICs either bubbles or infinipoints can hold down supercapitals fairly well if well coordinated. The problem isn't tackling a supercapital. It is tackling a supercapital until it dies which is problimatic. This would become less of an issue if supercaps had less HP. Two things: - Ewar immunity - Not having to siege A third thing for thought: - Almost none of your counters work in low sec, and are rarely encountered there. Ewar immunity must go. -Liang Ed: Think of it kinda like this: Guys, guys, I need all 15 of you guys to fly hawks for our roaming gang tonight just in case..... -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
FT Diomedes Gallente The Fimbriani Shadow of xXDEATHXx	Posted - 2010.09.27 23:08:00 - [124] Even though I now have a SC pilot (Aeon under construction atm, taking delivery soon), the E-War immunity is pretty gay. It's the equivalent of nano*ging on the capital ship level. Combat in Eve is about taking some **ing risks. --- This doesn't even seem to be a regular case of rats fleeing the sinking ship. Seems more like the rats are on fire, the ship is on fire, and the sea is full of drunk Russians. - Jacob Etienne
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.09.27 23:10:00 - [125] Originally by: FT Diomedes Even though I now have a SC pilot (Aeon under construction atm, taking delivery soon), the E-War immunity is pretty gay. It's the equivalent of nano*ging on the capital ship level. Combat in Eve is about taking some ing risks. I don't actually mind ewar immunity... its the warp disruptor immunity that bothers me. It'd kinda cool flavor not to be able to be jammed or dampened. Not being able to be tackled however.... -Liang -- Eve Forum *** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
FT Diomedes Gallente The Fimbriani Shadow of xXDEATHXx	Posted - 2010.09.27 23:13:00 - [126] Right, that's what I meant. As a SC pilot, I would be okay with loosing warp disruptor immunity. It does take away some of the niche for heavy dictors and make them a lot less useful. --- This doesn't even seem to be a regular case of rats fleeing the sinking ship. Seems more like the rats are on fire, the ship is on fire, and the sea is full of drunk Russians. - Jacob Etienne
Sarah Norbulk Dawn of a new Empire The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.09.27 23:39:00 - [127] Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 27/09/2010 23:00:14 Two things: - Ewar immunity - Not having to siege A third thing for thought: - Almost none of your counters work in low sec, and are rarely encountered there. Ewar immunity must go. -Liang Ed: Think of it kinda like this: Guys, guys, I need all 15 of you guys to fly hawks for our roaming gang tonight just in case..... Let's do a comparison, shall we. You are suggesting that all 15 members of your fleet should be entirely effective while flying BS. I contend that a fleet of 10 BS, a Damnation, 2 Guardians, and 2 Falcons would be more effetive. I don't think there is any doubt which fleet is more effective. The purpose of this comparison is to illustrate that ship diversity within a fleet is essential to accomplish all the tasks required of an effective fleet. If you can't be assed to bring 3 HICs with your gang of 15 then you shouldn't be able to tackle a supercapital. Apart from the fact that including supercap tacklers in your fleet when you expect to face supercaps is a good idea, there's also the fact that EWar immunity in lowsec was brought up a long time ago. CCP introduced the HIC specifically to counter EWar immune supercaps in lowsec, so you have no argument on that point. As for not having to siege, that is an advantage over dreads, but one that is not game breaking. When supercaps are deployed on structure shoots they are still exposed for prolonged periods of time and, with a decent warpin, still in danger of getting tackled. Granted the whole point of having a support fleet is so this doesn't happen, but it's not like there's not ****ups. The biggest advantage of not having to siege would be for capital ganks, but that requires you get in kill then warp out, and preferably cloak because you sure as hell won't have cap to jump out again for a little while.
Kail Storm Caldari	Posted - 2010.09.27 23:43:00 - [128] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Seriously Bored Balance changes in a game this complex need to be simple and elegant, or else they introduce monstrous new realms of problems and imbalance that can't be predicted during testing. And changing the way everyone in the game locks and fights one another would scream "New Game Enhancements" to me. Gonna be pretty awesome when I get a couple neutral archons to target my Vindicator and apply 1 neut and 1 cap energy transfer each. Then I've got a 2000 DPS unlockable pwnmobile. -Liang Obviously you didnt get the part saying there is are both limits to friendly and enemy "points" of targeting, so all your alli`s would do was be limited to how many RR`s you can recieve nothing else. -------------------------------------------------- "If Eve Was P*rn, It would be a Snuff film, First you get screwed then you get killed" -Me
Irae Ragwan	Posted - 2010.09.27 23:44:00 - [129] Originally by: Kail Storm Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Seriously Bored Balance changes in a game this complex need to be simple and elegant, or else they introduce monstrous new realms of problems and imbalance that can't be predicted during testing. And changing the way everyone in the game locks and fights one another would scream "New Game Enhancements" to me. Gonna be pretty awesome when I get a couple neutral archons to target my Vindicator and apply 1 neut and 1 cap energy transfer each. Then I've got a 2000 DPS unlockable pwnmobile. -Liang Obviously you didnt get the part saying there is are both limits to friendly and enemy "points" of targeting, so all your alli`s would do was be limited to how many RR`s you can recieve nothing else. Never. Stop. Posting.
Kail Storm Caldari	Posted - 2010.09.27 23:49:00 - [130] Edited by: Kail Storm on 27/09/2010 23:52:24 Irae say something constructive or **** off Actually besides suggesting Deleteting SC`s from the game what have you really even proposed? I agree Target Stacking Nerf would be drastic but its the way to fix alot of problems and make the ever changing ever blob growing game feel smaller and require more micro management, which should happen, 1 or 2 ALiis shouldnt just Own Hi Ends with immunity because huge numbers and watch there 100`s of billions of isk come in every month. Lets here your reasonable ideas Irae or STFU -------------------------------------------------- "If Eve Was P*rn, It would be a Snuff film, First you get screwed then you get killed" -Me
Irae Ragwan	Posted - 2010.09.27 23:53:00 - [131] Originally by: Kail Storm Irae say something constructive or **** off SO, what if we made a new system where every ship had a given number of "Kali" assigned to it, and every ship's signature radius and targeting ability were modified by the number of total "Kali" present on the grid divided by the square root of the number of alliance in the region. That way, if the "Kali" score of the fleet was too high, the fleet would not recieve a lower "Kali score," and thus be at a disadvantage in their ability to post constructive things. Of course, this sounds very complex, but if you stop and re-read it a dozen or so times then you should understand that it will work flawlessly and there is absolutely no way it would have any negative impact or unintended side-effects. [/sarcasm]
Sarah Norbulk Dawn of a new Empire The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.09.28 00:03:00 - [132] Originally by: Irae Ragwan Edited by: Irae Ragwan on 27/09/2010 23:50:24 Devil's Advocate: That doesn't scale up very well when you're talking about a large number of SCs. Which brings me back to the whole "not designed for anything but being OP," theme. I think there is an issue of scale (namely: examples of 100+ SCs being brough to battle are happening already) that is going to upset arguments like that. It scales a lot better when you add in the fact that the only time supercaps have been fielded in that number has been over 0.0 Sov where bubbles are in effect and a single dictor(cost ~35m isk) can tackle 5-10 supers at a time.
Kail Storm Caldari	Posted - 2010.09.28 00:06:00 - [133] Once more a troll with no damned input that helps at all, No one said it was flawless, It would help more than hurt and off that system you could build a better fighting system. Eve`s fighting system is like an old town that was built for 25k people that turned into a city the size of Pittsburg or Munich and needs infrastructure rebuilding. Roads are not paved right Water mains are rusted and the whole thing was never intended to serve a group of even half of what it is now, this is a problem. What the hell is the differance between 50 SC`s like you keep talkig about and 1k BS`s that these same alli`s can field? Either way you cant stop them. Are SC`s OP`d yes is the game mechanics broken with other ships yes, so why not try to fix both? Seriously whats your solution, besides trolling and quoting people who want to rid the game of all SC`s, its you who is being rediculous by offering that as a viable suggestion, hey if it doesnt work kill the ship. Blasters Gone, Rockets Gone anything thats broken just get rid of right? Solutions or just let the grown ups talk. -------------------------------------------------- "If Eve Was P*rn, It would be a Snuff film, First you get screwed then you get killed" -Me
Irae Ragwan	Posted - 2010.09.28 00:18:00 - [134] Edited by: Irae Ragwan on 28/09/2010 00:22:40 Originally by: Sarah Norbulk Originally by: Irae Ragwan Edited by: Irae Ragwan on 27/09/2010 23:50:24 Devil's Advocate: That doesn't scale up very well when you're talking about a large number of SCs. Which brings me back to the whole "not designed for anything but being OP," theme. I think there is an issue of scale (namely: examples of 100+ SCs being brough to battle are happening already) that is going to upset arguments like that. It scales a lot better when you add in the fact that the only time supercaps have been fielded in that number has been over 0.0 Sov where bubbles are in effect and a single dictor(cost ~35m isk) can tackle 5-10 supers at a time. Fair enough, but that number of SCs is not strictly limited to 0.0. As an aside, I would dearly love to fly that suicide dictor. Originally by: Kail Storm Seriously whats your solution The solution is to effectively change a statistic of the SC. Be that EHP as Sarah suggests, Ewar immunity ala Liang, or some other variable yet to be discussed. You seem to be under the impression your idea of creating entirely new problems to solve existing issues has some, possibly equal, merit. That's a little sad.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.09.28 00:24:00 - [135] Someone earlier said something about repurposing super caps away from combat. After some thinking about it, here are some things that would make me fork out for a Hel: - Being able to dock (Required) - Very Large ship maintenance/Corporate Hangar bays (Required) - Build in triage bonus, without gimped capacitor (BIG bonus) - Able to still field fighters (but not necessarily fighter/bombers) - ECM/Damp/Web immunity (Medium bonus) Basically: I want a super carrier, to fulfill the role of a carrier - only better. -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.09.28 00:31:00 - [136] Originally by: Sarah Norbulk Let's do a comparison, shall we. You are suggesting that all 15 members of your fleet should be entirely effective while flying BS. ... If you can't be assed to bring 3 HICs with your gang of 15 then you shouldn't be able to tackle a supercapital. Wow, you're really really biased, you know that? I suggested that we should be entirely effective while flying nothing but battleships. What Is aid was that we needed to bring ships which have no other purpose than to tackle super capitals. Quote: Apart from the fact that including supercap tacklers in your fleet when you expect to face supercaps is a good idea, there's also the fact that EWar immunity in lowsec was brought up a long time ago. CCP introduced the HIC specifically to counter EWar immune supercaps in lowsec, so you have no argument on that point. Are there more or less counters in 0.0 than in low sec? If there are less, does that mean that a super carrier's power (compared to all the other 'fish in the pond') is more or less than when in 0.0? Basically: you're **ing out of your mind if you think that disabling most of the counters for super carriers in low sec is "ok". I would further point out that HICs cannot be RR'ed and have not been rebalanced since the super capital changes. Quote: As for not having to siege, that is an advantage over dreads, but one that is not game breaking. I don't necessarily disagree, but it's a what the huge difference in GTFO. -Liang -- Eve Forum *** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
Sarah Norbulk Dawn of a new Empire The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.09.28 00:33:00 - [137] Originally by: Liang Nuren Someone earlier said something about repurposing super caps away from combat. After some thinking about it, here are some things that would make me fork out for a Hel: - Being able to dock (Required) - Very Large ship maintenance/Corporate Hangar bays (Required) - Build in triage bonus, without gimped capacitor (BIG bonus) - Able to still field fighters (but not necessarily fighter/bombers) - ECM/Damp/Web immunity (Medium bonus) Basically: I want a super carrier, to fulfill the role of a carrier - only better. -Liang This would be even more broken than they currently are tbh. Think of the Aeon. 2 cap energy transfers, 4 capital armour RR which can be perma run because of bouncing cap. That's effective 16 capital armour reps per supercarrier with 8 lows + carrier bonus for resists and 80m EHP which can field 20 Fighters(or around 2000 DPS)each. Oh and they can't be jammed so there's no way to break the spider tank. Did I mention they could do this on a station undock?
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.09.28 00:38:00 - [138] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 28/09/2010 00:39:16 Originally by: Sarah Norbulk Think of the Aeon. 2 cap energy transfers, 4 capital armour RR which can be perma run because of bouncing cap. That's effective 16 capital armour reps per supercarrier with 8 lows + carrier bonus for resists and 80m EHP which can field 20 Fighters(or around 2000 DPS)each. Oh and they can't be jammed so there's no way to break the spider tank. Did I mention they could do this on a station undock? Who said anything about 20 fighters or millions upon millions of EHP? I was outlining the differences from the Nidhoggur - not the Hel as you know it. -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
Kail Storm Caldari	Posted - 2010.09.28 00:54:00 - [139] Edited by: Kail Storm on 28/09/2010 00:56:47 Originally by: Irae Ragwan Edited by: Irae Ragwan on 28/09/2010 00:22:40 Originally by: Sarah Norbulk Originally by: Irae Ragwan Edited by: Irae Ragwan on 27/09/2010 23:50:24 Devil's Advocate: That doesn't scale up very well when you're talking about a large number of SCs. Which brings me back to the whole "not designed for anything but being OP," theme. I think there is an issue of scale (namely: examples of 100+ SCs being brough to battle are happening already) that is going to upset arguments like that. It scales a lot better when you add in the fact that the only time supercaps have been fielded in that number has been over 0.0 Sov where bubbles are in effect and a single dictor(cost ~35m isk) can tackle 5-10 supers at a time. Fair enough, but that number of SCs is not strictly limited to 0.0. As an aside, I would dearly love to fly that suicide dictor. Originally by: Kail Storm Seriously whats your solution The solution is to effectively change a statistic of the SC. Be that EHP as Sarah suggests, Ewar immunity ala Liang, or some other variable yet to be discussed. You seem to be under the impression your idea of creating entirely new problems to solve existing issues has some, possibly equal, merit. That's a little sad. I admitted SC`s were OP and suggested that Dreads Get Huge amounts of DMG to keep up with them and wasnt opposed to good ideas ever, but you never had any ideas when I said I liked the Targeting Idea. Blobs are every bit as a Problem as SC`s, please tell me how the Dread wont be the Next "SC" if the get nerf`d hard? Bringing 100 of any super powerful ships is better than bringing 30 etc, So the root problem is the blobbing not just the SC`s. They could use a change I agree and have said it 5 times now but it wont change the fact that NC can field 100 Titans in a year after these Nerfs make SC`s more inline with others, in a way SC`s are way more affordable and can be flown way easier than titans so smaller Alli`s stand better chances using them than titans which are triple the cost, in which the Huge alli`s have. Unless you fix the underlying problem which is Blobbing, as admited by alot of Anti SC guys "They are ok in groups of 10 but what about 100" That goes for any ship at the top of the totem pole, so unless its fixed we will constantly have a ship that is great at a small num ber but OP in fleets. -------------------------------------------------- "If Eve Was P*rn, It would be a Snuff film, First you get screwed then you get killed" -Me
Hiroshima Jita	Posted - 2010.09.28 01:02:00 - [140] I really hate the stacking nerf damage idea and its varients. They're all awful and open to metagaming. For example lets say that every person shooting at a single target gets stacking nerfed. Team A (100) VS Team B (100) Assume that primarys are still called and team A splits into fire teams of some optimal number to avoid the worst of the stacking penalty. Team B (1) has a spy OR (2) is not *****ed and can understand remote rep request broadcasts. As team B ships come under fire, their pilots are instructed to lock their friendlies taking fire and start shooting them with a light drone OR a small blaster. Suddenly team A's real damage is heavily stacking nerfed because of gay metagaming. Even if the first people to fire are not stacking nerfed, a spy would still let this thing be in effect. What needs to happen to make blobbing less than ideal under some circumstances is some added realism. The followings sugestions are technically unfeasable, but would best solve the problem. You cannot hit targets that you cant draw a line of sight to. Instead you hit whatever is first in the way. Collisions result in damage depending on relative mass and speed. Suddenly having a random noob in the fleet because he might do some damage to the primary and will lag up the system isn't a good idea. He is just as likely to shoot you or worse, ram you. Unfortunately the LOS change would have a complexity of (N(N-2))^N using the most straightforward algorythm and the colision detection would have a complexity of N!. I haven't thought very hard about reducing the complexity of the algorythms but at that level the lag those changes would induce would be awful.
Siiee Recycled Heroes	Posted - 2010.09.28 01:06:00 - [141] Originally by: Ninetails o'Cat One way of doing it that seemed water tight to me was suggested to me by a corp mate a while back: Originally by: Corp Mate Basically you need to have four groups of people relative to each target: 1. Friendlies, whose locks interfere with everyone who is flagged as friendly or neutral active towards the target 2. Hostiles, whose locks interfere with everyone who is flagged as hostile or neutral active towards the target 3. Neutrals, whose locks don't interfere with anyone else's other than Neutral Actives and whose locks aren't interfered with by everyone else's. 3. Neutral Actives, whose locks don't interfere with anyone else's other than more Neutral Actives but whose locks are interfered with by everyone else's. Then you just work by this flowchart. neutral corp alt loaded up with auto targeters and target painters targets gank ship, aggresses with painter and becomes "hostile", neutral alts "spider" locks between each other in the same manner. Any neutral pilot will be able to lock since those slots are still empty, but as soon as they aggress (or are aggressed) their lock drops because the gank ships hostile locks are all used up. Any natively hostile pilot will be unable to lock in the first place. If existing locks don't* drop when changing from neutral to hostile, then your lock limit is entirely ineffective as all targets would need to do is spam lock and aggress as all their blob buddies locks get moved from neutral to hostile. The only place that it would remain effective would be in highsec wardecs, and a wardec would become a liability in any other zone of space.
Sarah Norbulk Dawn of a new Empire The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.09.28 01:06:00 - [142] Originally by: Liang Nuren Wow, you're really really biased, you know that? I suggested that we should be entirely effective while flying nothing but battleships. What Is aid was that we needed to bring ships which have no other purpose than to tackle super capitals. You implied in your statement that all 15 members of your gang would need to be in HICs to tackle. That is most certainly not the case. On top of that, having a HIC with a 26km infini point and a sensor booster offers much quicker and reliable tackle than say a battleship or battlecruiser. Not to mention that tackling a supercap implies you have the method to kill it. Currently you would need around 15 dreads to kill it before it disappeared from logging. I would assume that anyone who has 15 dreads on standby to kill a supercarrier would also be able to field a few HICs for tackle. Originally by: Liang Nuren Are there more or less counters in 0.0 than in low sec? If there are less, does that mean that a super carrier's power (compared to all the other 'fish in the pond') is more or less than when in 0.0? Basically: you're ***ing out of your mind if you think that disabling most of the counters for super carriers in low sec is "ok". I would further point out that HICs cannot be RR'ed while their point is active* and have not been rebalanced since the super capital changes. I added a key piece of info for you. That's why people developed the cycling HIC method. Ideally done with 3 HICs, although manageable with 2. HICs commonly fit 2 points allowing for tackling 2 supercaps with reasonable sustainablity. 2 cycles on, 1 off, where you get RRed and capped up. This way there's always 2 points on each supercap and HICs get repped. I'm not saying that it is not harder(double negative intended); I'm simply pointing out that tackling supercaps in lowsec is not infeasable. The only real counter not available in lowsec is bubbles. While this is a significant disadvantage, it's not an insurmountable challenge, and I suspect any entity capable of actually killing a supercap to be able to pull it off. HICs really shouldn't need to change as Fighterbombers were specifically balanced around capital engagements and left doing pitiful damage to subcaps. Fighters do more real DPS to HICs than FBs so nothing has changed relative to pre-Dominion other than Supercap EHP(lowsec DD removed so not an issue).
Sarah Norbulk Dawn of a new Empire The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.09.28 01:14:00 - [143] Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 28/09/2010 00:39:16 Originally by: Sarah Norbulk Think of the Aeon. 2 cap energy transfers, 4 capital armour RR which can be perma run because of bouncing cap. That's effective 16 capital armour reps per supercarrier with 8 lows + carrier bonus for resists and 80m EHP which can field 20 Fighters(or around 2000 DPS)each. Oh and they can't be jammed so there's no way to break the spider tank. Did I mention they could do this on a station undock? Who said anything about 20 fighters or millions upon millions of EHP? I was outlining the differences from the Nidhoggur - not the Hel as you know it. -Liang Unless you would independently assign each racial supercarrier a niche the changes would have to be across the board. My assumption that this is what you meant may have been incorrect, at which point I still find the idea OP, but not as insane as I first imagined.
Kail Storm Caldari	Posted - 2010.09.28 01:33:00 - [144] Originally by: Hiroshima Jita I really hate the stacking nerf damage idea and its varients. They're all awful and open to metagaming. For example lets say that every person shooting at a single target gets stacking nerfed. Team A (100) VS Team B (100) Assume that primarys are still called and team A splits into fire teams of some optimal number to avoid the worst of the stacking penalty. Team B (1) has a spy OR (2) is not *****ed and can understand remote rep request broadcasts. As team B ships come under fire, their pilots are instructed to lock their friendlies taking fire and start shooting them with a light drone OR a small blaster. Suddenly team A's real damage is heavily stacking nerfed because of gay metagaming. Even if the first people to fire are not stacking nerfed, a spy would still let this thing be in effect. What needs to happen to make blobbing less than ideal under some circumstances is some added realism. The followings sugestions are technically unfeasable, but would best solve the problem. You cannot hit targets that you cant draw a line of sight to. Instead you hit whatever is first in the way. Collisions result in damage depending on relative mass and speed. Suddenly having a random noob in the fleet because he might do some damage to the primary and will lag up the system isn't a good idea. He is just as likely to shoot you or worse, ram you. Unfortunately the LOS change would have a complexity of (N(N-2))^N using the most straightforward algorythm and the collision detection would have a complexity of N!. I haven't thought very hard about reducing the complexity of the algorythms but at that level the lag those changes would induce would be awful. As said by others I didnt come up with stacking Idea but there would be differant catagories so meta gaming in the situation you described wouldnt work and infact only free up other Gang as you are now doing **** DPS to them, also for every problem there is a work around but I truly believe that our system is broken and worked with 10k members on eve But not 50k at a Time or 150k actives in 3 timeznes. I do like your Idea very much though, I like any Idea that is attacking the Blobbing problem rather than specific ships that work well in some roles and are OP`d in others, SC`s being 1 of those. -------------------------------------------------- "If Eve Was P*rn, It would be a Snuff film, First you get screwed then you get killed" -Me
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.09.28 01:36:00 - [145] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 28/09/2010 01:43:51 Edited by: Liang Nuren on 28/09/2010 01:43:36 Originally by: Sarah Norbulk You implied in your statement that all 15 members of your gang would need to be in HICs to tackle. That is most certainly not the case. On top of that, having a HIC with a 26km infini point and a sensor booster offers much quicker and reliable tackle than say a battleship or battlecruiser. Not to mention that tackling a supercap implies you have the method to kill it. Currently you would need around 15 dreads to kill it before it disappeared from logging. I would assume that anyone who has 15 dreads on standby to kill a supercarrier would also be able to field a few HICs for tackle. ... I added a key piece of info for you. .. I'm not saying that it is not harder(double negative intended); I'm simply pointing out that tackling supercaps in lowsec is not infeasable. Get out of your Nyx and go back to sub cap PVP school. HICs are alright, but the only reason to have one in gang is to try to counter a super cap hot drop. Except for that, you need a dozen or more HICs and a *****ed amount of carriers/dreads/supercaps of your own on stand by. Just in case. For all other purposes, an Arazu is superior. The implication here is that there's a disincentive to even flying a HIC in low sec. The ultimate effect here is that what counters do exist, are much less available, and this leads to a "power bloat" effect. Supercarriers are much more powerful in low sec than in 0.0 - and this is an undeniable fact. There aren't counters, and their relative 'size' is dramatically and artificially increased due to the nature of low sec and its inhabitants. And ultimately, your "key piece of info" exactly illustrates my point. You claim that SCs have "a little" more GTFO than dreads/carriers, yet a 5 man roaming gang can trivially tackle a dread/carrier long enough to rally reinforcements. A 5 man roaming gang would need to be composed of (by your own estimation) 3 HICs and 2 Logistics to do the same to a roaming Supercarrier. I think it might be worth going over the difference in "rally reinforcements" too. In low sec, everyone in fleet texts everyone they know, gets in every public channel they know of, and hops on every vent/TS they have access to. You hope* to get every pirate within 30 jumps to come help... and usually you do, but it can take a while to make it happen. In 0.0, it comes down as Intel: "Got a carrier tackled in 6uy" "350 x's" I would also point out that every supercarrier that has died in low sec has died to a gang specifically designed to go kill that supercarrier. No other purpose to it. No general roam, no nothing. A bait gang with titan bridging support and 20+ supercarriers. I'm hoping you begin to see why it's utterly unreasonable for ewar immunity in low sec. -Liang Ed: Hmm, I forgot about the 8 WCS BS's that occasionally come through. You might miss those with an Arazu.... but I can't really remember the last time I saw someone fit like that. -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.09.28 01:44:00 - [146] Originally by: Sarah Norbulk Unless you would independently assign each racial supercarrier a niche the changes would have to be across the board. My assumption that this is what you meant may have been incorrect, at which point I still find the idea OP, but not as insane as I first imagined. The crazy part is that you think its somehow more overpowered than Supercarriers already are. -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
Sarah Norbulk Dawn of a new Empire The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.09.28 01:59:00 - [147] Edited by: Sarah Norbulk on 28/09/2010 02:01:10 Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 28/09/2010 01:43:51 And ultimately, your "key piece of info" exactly illustrates my point. You claim that SCs have "a little" more GTFO than dreads/carriers, yet a 5 man roaming gang can trivially tackle a dread/carrier long enough to rally reinforcements. A 5 man roaming gang would need to be composed of (by your own estimation) 3 HICs and 2 Logistics to do the same to a roaming Supercarrier. So, you think that your 5 man gang should be able to tackle and hold down a 16b is investment while you're backup, which consists of a a bunch of unorganised loose knit aquaintances tries to wrangle up enough ships to actually kill it. How does that not sound absurd to you. Edit: I also have this amazing thing called a capital alt that happens to fly my Nyx. If you've flown against one of our fleets recently you've likely seen me flying a guardian.
Dethmourne Silvermane Gallente League of Gentlemen Warped Aggression	Posted - 2010.09.28 01:59:00 - [148] I can't believe my semi-troll targeting limit post is still being argued about DesuSigs
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.09.28 02:01:00 - [149] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 28/09/2010 02:03:01 Originally by: Sarah Norbulk So, you think that your 5 man gang should be able to tackle and hold down a 16b is investment while you're backup, which consists of a a bunch of unorganised loose knit aquaintances tries to wrangle up enough ships to actually kill it. How does that not sound absurd to you. Comments: - So if I put 20 billion ISK on my Vindicator it should somehow become immune to warp disruption? How does that not sound absurd to you? - The lack of bubbles and ewar immunity cannot coexist. And seeing how the lack of bubbles is one of the defining features of low sec, I think we know which one needs to go. -Liang Quote: Edit: I also have this amazing thing called a capital alt that happens to fly my Nyx. If you've flown against one of our fleets recently you've likely seen me flying a guardian. Then why don't you understand the basics of what's important in your specialized tackle? Maybe its because you spend too much time obsessing over your measly 16 billion ISK pwnmobile. -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
Sig Sour	Posted - 2010.09.28 02:07:00 - [150] Originally by: Sarah Norbulk So, you think that your 5 man gang should be able to tackle and hold down a 16b is investment while you're backup, which consists of a a bunch of unorganised loose knit aquaintances tries to wrangle up enough ships to actually kill it. How does that not sound absurd to you. WTB Rifter with 100% resists across the board, offering 250b.

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