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Why go Vargur? This Maelstrom is just as good... (arty ships)

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Redshift XIII Amarr	Posted - 2010.09.27 22:24:00 - [1] Can you guys help me recognize any benefits that I may be missing here? I realize that both of these ships are completely pimped out and expensive, but their stats are almost identical... is there any reason to spend all the extra time training for the Vargur (other than slightly lower cost on ammo) when I can get the same performance out of a Mach for about 500mil less total?? [Vargur, Ideal - 1200] Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Damage Control II Pith B-Type Shield Boost Amplifier Pith X-Type X-Large Shield Booster True Sansha Heavy Capacitor Booster, Cap Booster 800 Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field Domination Target Painter 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L Small Tractor Beam I Small Tractor Beam I Small Tractor Beam I Large Ancillary Current Router II Large Ancillary Current Router II Hammerhead II x5 DPS = 857 OmniTank = 1795 Cap = 4m44s [Maelstrom, Ideal - 1200] Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Damage Control II Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field Pith X-Type X-Large Shield Booster Pith B-Type Shield Boost Amplifier True Sansha Heavy Capacitor Booster, Cap Booster 800 Domination Target Painter 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, EMP L Large Capacitor Control Circuit II Large Capacitor Control Circuit II Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Hammerhead II x5 DPS = 846 OmniTank = 1576 Cap = 13m13s
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.09.27 22:27:00 - [2] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 27/09/2010 22:28:04 Originally by: Redshift XIII Can you guys help me recognize any benefits that I may be missing here? I realize that both of these ships are completely pimped out and expensive, but their stats are almost identical... is there any reason to spend all the extra time training for the Vargur (other than slightly lower cost on ammo) when I can get the same performance out of a Mach for about 500mil less total?? The Vargur is better because: - It has a better shield tank, which lets you take more 'stupid' aggro risks. - It uses less ammo, and its far more feasible to use faction ammo. - It has a tractor beam bonus - It has a falloff bonus, unlike the Maelstrom -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
Seriously Bored Minmatar	Posted - 2010.09.27 22:28:00 - [3] Edited by: Seriously Bored on 27/09/2010 22:31:10 I would encourage you to look for some AC Vargur fits. I think the reason that you don't see its potential is that you're barking up the wrong tree. :-) I can start you off with a fit that's cheaper and far less of a gank magnet: [Vargur, A better realistic Vargur. T2 Tank. Dominion Ready.] Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Tracking Computer II Medium Capacitor Booster II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Explosion Dampening Field II X-Large Shield Booster II 800mm Repeating Artillery II 800mm Repeating Artillery II 800mm Repeating Artillery II 800mm Repeating Artillery II Small Tractor Beam I Salvager II Salvager II Large Projectile Burst Aerator II [Spare rig for flavor.]
FT Diomedes Gallente The Fimbriani Shadow of xXDEATHXx	Posted - 2010.09.27 22:53:00 - [4] Try looking at RF 1200mm guns for artillery fits - if that is the route you take. You can fit an AB and 4 of them easily with a faction PDS. Can make for a much easier time fitting artillery. --- This doesn't even seem to be a regular case of rats fleeing the sinking ship. Seems more like the rats are on fire, the ship is on fire, and the sea is full of drunk Russians. - Jacob Etienne
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.09.27 22:57:00 - [5] Originally by: Seriously Bored [Vargur, A better realistic Vargur. T2 Tank. Dominion Ready.] For non Caldari/Guristas missions: 100mn AB II Large Shield Booster II 2x Invuln II EM II TC II For Caldari/Guristas: 2x ECCM II Large Shield Booster II 2x Kin II Thm II I'd like to upgrade my tank a bit so I can squeeze a second TC II on it in the average case. Also, I hate Caldari/Guri missions. -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
Newbie Ned Real Nice And Laidback Corporation Black Core Alliance	Posted - 2010.09.27 23:02:00 - [6] Vargur is made for AC. It rocks, but the Machariel is more fun and about the same ability, depending if you salvage or not. The Noctis might hit marauders a bit, which have already suffered slightly in the loot nerf. Maelstrom is a definite step down from both these ships, except perhaps in a mission where you really need arty.
Redshift XIII Amarr	Posted - 2010.09.27 23:02:00 - [7] OK lemme clarify - I need strictly an Arty ship for WH operations. This ship will be strictly shooting at sleeper BS. An AB is pointless cuz I will be constantly webbed to death, and AC's will not work because of the lack of mobility. Tractor beams are not needed because we have a loot ship with us. Falloff is always "good" but it's not critical on this ship because I will definitely be using arties that will easily cover out to the 55km or so I need them to go. So the Vargur falloff for me (i.e. Arties) is a pretty moot point. How is the shield tank better? I mean yes, it is about 200 dps stronger (and also worse on the cap), but the 1500 tank that the Mael offers is already more than enough. I agree the ammo costs will be lower, but that is a minor factor to me honestly. So I guess what I'm saying is - given the above info and knowing what I need it for, do you still think the oodles of extra training time for the Vargur and the 500mil extra cost to fit is worth it?
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.09.27 23:05:00 - [8] Originally by: Redshift XIII ... If you had your mind made up before posting, why did you waste our time by soliciting our opinions? Also, BTW, you're wrong. -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
FT Diomedes Gallente The Fimbriani Shadow of xXDEATHXx	Posted - 2010.09.27 23:11:00 - [9] For what you are doing, it doesn't sound like you need a Vargur. Nor do you need to pimp that Maelstrom as much as you have already done. Just T2 the Maelstrom and pocket the profit. --- This doesn't even seem to be a regular case of rats fleeing the sinking ship. Seems more like the rats are on fire, the ship is on fire, and the sea is full of drunk Russians. - Jacob Etienne
Redshift XIII Amarr	Posted - 2010.09.27 23:11:00 - [10] Originally by: Newbie Ned Vargur is made for AC. It rocks, but the Machariel is more fun and about the same ability, depending if you salvage or not. The Noctis might hit marauders a bit, which have already suffered slightly in the loot nerf. Maelstrom is a definite step down from both these ships, except perhaps in a mission where you really need arty. Don't have to tell me how good Machs are - I swear by them ;) But yeh... this is strictly an arty platform
Hesperius Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.09.27 23:18:00 - [11] Nightmare for shield tanking wormholes.
Redshift XIII Amarr	Posted - 2010.09.27 23:35:00 - [12] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Redshift XIII ... If you had your mind made up before posting, why did you waste our time by soliciting our opinions? Also, BTW, you're wrong. -Liang ...because I'd like you to help me understand how I'm wrong...? If my way of thinking is flawed, I'm certainly open to being corrected so that I can be a better player. I just wanted you all to help me realize any potential arguing points that perhaps I had overlooked, with my needs in mind. If you're saying that I've already considered them all, then fine (and thank you) - there's no need to get ugly. I also wanted to post this for other people who are looking for an Arty platform and perhaps save them weeks of training that I have seemingly wasted now on going for a Vargur (obviously before I played with fittings)
Seriously Bored Minmatar	Posted - 2010.09.28 00:47:00 - [13] Originally by: Liang Nuren For non Caldari/Guristas missions: 100mn AB II Large Shield Booster II 2x Invuln II EM II TC II For Caldari/Guristas: 2x ECCM II Large Shield Booster II 2x Kin II Thm II I'd like to upgrade my tank a bit so I can squeeze a second TC II on it in the average case. Also, I hate Caldari/Guri missions. Excellent notes, but I must be in a different part of space than you. I rarely get those Caldari/Gurista missions, and just pass them by... god getting jammed in a Marauder sucks. Originally by: Redshift XIII I also wanted to post this for other people who are looking for an Arty platform and perhaps save them weeks of training that I have seemingly wasted now on going for a Vargur (obviously before I played with fittings) If you are looking for arties and arties ONLY, you may be correct that the Vargur is not better than the Mael for you. Howevery everything Liang said earlier about its advantages still applies, with one addition: much better tracking. If that isn't worth it to you, there isn't any reason to try to convince you further. But knowing your situation better, let me leave you with one other tidbit that may convince you to go for the AC Vargur: With a Tracking Computer and it's fantastic tracking already, you can shoot frigs with your guns. Since you can do that, you won't spend nearly as much time bogged down by webs as long as you manage your waves well and target the small bastards first. And I'm assuming you're holin' solo? The tractors are indeed a big help in that situation. A bit less so if you have buddies.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.09.28 00:55:00 - [14] Originally by: Redshift XIII I also wanted to post this for other people who are looking for an Arty platform and perhaps save them weeks of training that I have seemingly wasted now on going for a Vargur (obviously before I played with fittings) Comments: - The Vargur has excellent tracking and a falloff bonus. This lets you use "close range" ammo both closer in and much further out, with much better effects. - The Vargur has the same tank, but slightly better due to the "T2 resists" - The AC Vargur outdamages the Arty Maelstrom at pretty much all meaningful ranges. - Your tractor beams only work up to 40km. If you can tractor it, your ACs will **** it. - The Vargur has 3 utility high slots, and is therefore much more useful in a gang - The tractor bonus will save you an enormous amount of time. -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
Hesperius Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.09.28 01:02:00 - [15] Edited by: Hesperius on 28/09/2010 01:03:11 I realize that you are looking specifically for an arty platform, but I was just talking to Liang about this, and here is my opinion on your situation the best I can figure what you have going on: If you live in a shield bonused class 3-5, the Nighmare with T1 ammo is the best choice hands down. If you are visiting a class 3-5, either the Nightmare or Vargur are a good choice because the shield transporting slots available without sacrificing DPS. If you are just getting a general use ship for having around in case you find a wormhole, the fleet issue phoon is a great choice to setup as an amazing armor gang ship or a decent shield gang ship. The tempest is also a good choice, I suppose how well you are at managing your drones would be what would be incentive to choose one or the other. If you live in a shield bonused class 1-3, the Tengu is the best. Tech 3 ships just make it so there is not a real reason to have a BS that doesn't RR in a wormhole.
Redshift XIII Amarr	Posted - 2010.09.28 01:03:00 - [16] Originally by: Seriously Bored ~~~ Only problem with that theory (and its a good idea), is that frigates are def not the only sleepers that web you... I am constantly webbed by cruisers and even BS also (almost always have 2-5 webs on me at a time) I don't mean this offensively at all, but do you guys have much WH experience? The reason I ask is if I wanted to know if you still choose the AC route in WH, even when the BS are sometimes way out there and you're webbed in place.
King Rothgar Amarrian Retribution	Posted - 2010.09.28 01:05:00 - [17] Your error is in ruling out AC's. The vargur's 50% falloff bonus means those 800mm AC's you brushed aside as having too little range do in fact, have similar range to 1200mm's on a maelstrom. You're also ignoring that rather handy tracking speed bonus it has. BS guns with cruiser gun tracking speed is rather nice. The fair comparison is a vargur with 800mm's vs a maelstrom with 1200's. The vargur wins hands down as it has greater dps, better tracking and that rather handy tractor beam bonus. I don't know if that justifies the cost for you, but if you're already throwing on pith x-type crap, then another 500M for the hull isn't a big deal. Thus far you shall read, but no further; for this is my sig.
Redshift XIII Amarr	Posted - 2010.09.28 01:06:00 - [18] Originally by: Hesperius Edited by: Hesperius on 28/09/2010 01:03:11 I realize that you are looking specifically for an arty platform, but I was just talking to Liang about this, and here is my opinion on your situation the best I can figure what you have going on: If you live in a shield bonused class 3-5, the Nighmare with T1 ammo is the best choice hands down. If you are visiting a class 3-5, either the Nightmare or Vargur are a good choice because the shield transporting slots available without sacrificing DPS. If you are just getting a general use ship for having around in case you find a wormhole, the fleet issue phoon is a great choice to setup as an amazing armor gang ship or a decent shield gang ship. The tempest is also a good choice, I suppose how well you are at managing your drones would be what would be incentive to choose one or the other. If you live in a shield bonused class 1-3, the Tengu is the best. Tech 3 ships just make it so there is not a real reason to have a BS that doesn't RR in a wormhole. To answer - I live in a C3 that has no bonuses. I would love a Tengu or 2, but that is going to take FOREVER for me to train for because I am strictly Minmatar stuff atm (no caldari or missiles skills at all). Crosstraing for a Nightmare would be the same issue :(
King Rothgar Amarrian Retribution	Posted - 2010.09.28 01:24:00 - [19] Edited by: King Rothgar on 28/09/2010 01:25:02 I should also add that I've done a bit of sleeper farming. Not terribly recently but I've lived in class 5 wh's and occasionally raid a class 3-4. You need about 80km effective gun range since a lot of sleepers like to hang out there. And yeah, you're perma-webbed by practically everything. A vargur with a TE or two should have no trouble hitting them out there with 800mm AC's using barrage. Barrage doesn't nerf dps too much, it's like standard fusion but with a lot more range. And unlike your 1200mm setup, you can actually hit the BS's that drop within 5km. Those cruisers that love to hang at 15km are also easy pickings for it unlike with the 1200mm arty maelstrom. Thus far you shall read, but no further; for this is my sig.
Nadarius Chrome Celestial Horizon Corp.	Posted - 2010.09.28 03:49:00 - [20] Here's your Mael in EFT with all L5. http://i55.tinypic.com/9hujcp.png Here's a similarly-priced Vargur in EFT with all L5. http://i54.tinypic.com/2rdi2xt.png Here's the DPS graph for both shooting at a BS-sized stationary object (took the Mael as a target). http://i53.tinypic.com/de4n7s.png I quite like how the Vargur compares to be honest. Slightly less tank, but at least 100DPS more applied at any range, 300DPS more at 30km. Oh crud. Just realised the Varg's drones are active, 3 x Garde II. I can't be bothered reuploading the pictures, but that shaves a chunk off the Vargur's max DPS but doesn't really seem to affect things beyond 30km. Sorry.
Seriously Bored Minmatar	Posted - 2010.09.28 04:59:00 - [21] Originally by: Nadarius Chrome Oh crud. Just realised the Varg's drones are active, 3 x Garde II. I can't be bothered reuploading the pictures, but that shaves a chunk off the Vargur's max DPS but doesn't really seem to affect things beyond 30km. Sorry. Here's an updated graph: Green = My above Vargur fit with vanilla T1 Fusion. Red = My above Vargur fit with Barrage. Blue = Mael with RF Fusion. No drones for any of them to keep the comparison honest. Basically, you can see that at any given range, the Vargur with 800mm II will out-damage the Maelstrom with 1200mm II. What isn't shown, is that at all ranges, the Vargur has five times the tracking of the 1200mm. (Well, 3.75x tracking with Barrage, but that's still a massive advantage.) Putting any other ammo in the Mael's 1200s places it still below the curve of the Barrage Vargur, well out to 100KM. And given that damage type doesn't matter much in wormholes, Barrage is as viable as any other ammo you would have brought. If you can swing RF ammo for the Vargur, the Mael at no point outdamages it. As for my wormhole experience: I've cleared a few C2s with, but I'm no expert. I've never lived in one, I've never cleared a C3. But I do know my Minnie ships, and I think you're glossing over the more important points that keep being brought up.
SFX Bladerunner Minmatar Black Serpent Technologies R.A.G.E	Posted - 2010.09.28 10:18:00 - [22] Edited by: SFX Bladerunner on 28/09/2010 10:20:21 Originally by: Redshift XIII Originally by: Seriously Bored ~~~ Only problem with that theory (and its a good idea), is that frigates are def not the only sleepers that web you... I am constantly webbed by cruisers and even BS also (almost always have 2-5 webs on me at a time) I don't mean this offensively at all, but do you guys have much WH experience? The reason I ask is if I wanted to know if you still choose the AC route in WH, even when the BS are sometimes way out there and you're webbed in place. I have WH experience with C3s and C5s. The only sleeper rats I have ever seen that are long-range are 2-3 battleships in ONE particular spawn of ONE (perhaps 2) sites that have a range of +-80-90km. All/most others are close range/20km/40-50km. With 2 TE's and 1 TC (optimal) you are looking at 85km optimal+falloff using T1 short-range ammo, and +-105km optimal+falloff using barrage. Using exact copy fits (one AC one arty) with same short-range high damage T1 ammo you will be looking at: - AC outdamaging arties up to 45km with an averaged 140-150DPS more. - arties outdamaging AC from 45km with a similar average more DPS up to around 100km (beyond 100km isn't relevant as sleepers never are that far) - tracking has not been accounted for in the above mentioned/referenced DPS graphs, so in actuallity the curve will be more in favor of the AC vargur - As mentioned before, most rats operate at distances up to 50km, with an odd bs at 60km. While it is true with arties you'd be able to hit those off-chance long range BS's for more damage, your damage on short-medium ranged frigs and cruisers will be crap up to a point where you won't even be able to track em if they get to close and have to rely on your drones to kill them off. - AC vargur has less grid issues than arty vargur so is easier on fitting - using barrage the ac vargur only does 75 less DPS at 100km range, tracking again not accounted for. - AC vargur is more viable in pvp, and could actually ATTEMPT to fight back if hostiles appear.. arty vargur would get soloed by a skilled stealthbomber - arty vargur uses less ammo, which is kind of the only REAL reason why arties should be considered by ANYONE (that isn't a suicide ganker/sniper) in the first place over AC's.. and again I find this a moot point as T1 short range ammo will suffice more than 90% of the carebearing time and seeing as that ammo is cheap as fux and the vargur has a big cargohold anyway I don't think it's a really big hurdle for a wormhole-pver. I think the above nicely explains in a level of detail that even you can't argue against that the AC vargur just has much more advantages over the ARTY vargur in case of wormholing. (Disclaimer: granted I do only have C3 and C5 experience, but from what I've heard C6 really is just more of the same C5 stuff so I'm prepared to go on a limb and assume the same statistics will apply for C6 (and C4 for that matter)) Feel free to be convinced now. __________________________________________________ History is much like an endless waltz, the three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever..
Marko Riva Adamant Inc.	Posted - 2010.09.28 10:27:00 - [23] Fitting a Vargur with artie and then say "look how close it is to a maelstrom" is the wrong way to do it, as stated earlier in this thread; the vargur is for AC's.
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2010.09.28 10:31:00 - [24] Vargur with 2 TE and 3 Gyro will have supperior falloff, use less ammo, have tractors. Use ACs :) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Bastaardicious FinFleet IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.09.29 19:00:00 - [25] So how is the Vargur for 6/10's or sanctums in blood raider space? :)
Seriously Bored Minmatar	Posted - 2010.09.29 19:38:00 - [26] Originally by: Bastaardicious So how is the Vargur for 6/10's or sanctums in blood raider space? :) I'd imagine you'd rather have a Nightmare for that corner of the playground?
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2010.09.29 19:42:00 - [27] Originally by: Seriously Bored Originally by: Bastaardicious So how is the Vargur for 6/10's or sanctums in blood raider space? :) I'd imagine you'd rather have a Nightmare for that corner of the playground? with emp L ammo, its no huge difference really ;). NM is nice tho, if you got the skills. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Enduros Intoxicated Herbalists Cha0s Theory	Posted - 2010.09.29 19:49:00 - [28] Originally by: Sidus Isaacs Originally by: Seriously Bored Originally by: Bastaardicious So how is the Vargur for 6/10's or sanctums in blood raider space? :) I'd imagine you'd rather have a Nightmare for that corner of the playground? with emp L ammo, its no huge difference really ;). NM is nice tho, if you got the skills. Given the composition of emp ammo, then plasma actually does more damage after resists. Emp ammo is only good for Mordus legion and EOM (gone berserk) and a select few named rats. When shooting Sansha/Blood/Amarr then plasma is the best. - This one time, at gate camp, I shot a shuttle...
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2010.09.29 20:08:00 - [29] Originally by: Enduros Originally by: Sidus Isaacs Originally by: Seriously Bored Originally by: Bastaardicious So how is the Vargur for 6/10's or sanctums in blood raider space? :) I'd imagine you'd rather have a Nightmare for that corner of the playground? with emp L ammo, its no huge difference really ;). NM is nice tho, if you got the skills. Given the composition of emp ammo, then plasma actually does more damage after resists. Emp ammo is only good for Mordus legion and EOM (gone berserk) and a select few named rats. When shooting Sansha/Blood/Amarr then plasma is the best. The more you know. :) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
youthink	Posted - 2010.09.30 05:24:00 - [30] If the OP is hell bent on Artillery, why not go for something like this? [Maelstrom, 1400mm] Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Pith X-Type X-Large Shield Booster Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field Photon Scattering Field II Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Tracking Computer II 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L Large Ancillary Current Router I Large Capacitor Control Circuit II Large Core Defence Capacitor safeguard II Hammerhead II x5 Hobgoblin II x6 Hammerhead II x2

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