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Drakes - Do they need a nerf?

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 8 post(s)
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2010.10.23 17:07:00 - [301] Lol @ comparing drake and vaga to use as whine fuel. There are counters, BCs counter cruisers. BS's counter BCs. If you want to counter drakes you should not use cruisers but battleships. And what if BCs dont counter HACs (which they do not too great btw, AB hacs will normally beat drake armies), what should be used? Super carriers? Since battleships definately are not the usual counter against AB hacs.
Illwill Bill Svea Rike Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2010.10.23 17:23:00 - [302] Just theorycrafting because I'm bored at work here, but what would the consequences of replacing the Drake's kinetic damage bonus with a corresponding RoF bonus be? I know that the poor TQ hamsters would cry like little babies, but if you disregard from the performance issue, the DPS should stay the same, while the alpha would decrease. Originally by: CCP Navigator Great story but you probably want this in CAOD so feel free to post there with your main.
Cpt Tunguska	Posted - 2010.10.23 17:34:00 - [303] Originally by: Furb Killer Lol @ comparing drake and vaga to use as whine fuel. There are counters, BCs counter cruisers. BS's counter BCs. If you want to counter drakes you should not use cruisers but battleships. And what if BCs dont counter HACs (which they do not too great btw, AB hacs will normally beat drake armies), what should be used? Super carriers? Since battleships definately are not the usual counter against AB hacs. Where can I read ccp's statement that dumb Drakes are the official counter for HACs? Imho shiny skill-intensive and expensive HACs should be better than than scrubships.
Damar Rocarion	Posted - 2010.10.23 17:44:00 - [304] Originally by: Cpt Tunguska Where can I read ccp's statement that dumb Drakes are the official counter for HACs? Imho shiny skill-intensive and expensive HACs should be better than than scrubships. So where has CCP ever said anything being counter to anything and instead let players figure out their own tricks? But I quess it does not matter to you since clearly Blackbird should not be able to tackle vagabond and neither should Lokis die to cheap frigs/dessies because they cost more isk! Damar Rocarion Brigadier General
Tauni Caldari Chained Reactions	Posted - 2010.10.23 17:50:00 - [305] Originally by: Illwill Bill Just theorycrafting because I'm bored at work here, but what would the consequences of replacing the Drake's kinetic damage bonus with a corresponding RoF bonus be? I know that the poor TQ hamsters would cry like little babies, but if you disregard from the performance issue, the DPS should stay the same, while the alpha would decrease. It would actually improve the PVE capabilities of Drakes in k-space, since you'd no longer be restricted to one damage type to get the bonus. In w-space PVE, there'd be no difference. Similarly, you'd have a lot more flexibility in PVP, since it's not just CN Scourge anymore. Ammo use would go up, but that's not a huge factor. But yes, you would have the same dps and less alpha.
lol internets North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2010.10.23 17:57:00 - [306] How can you be so dumb. ROF != raw damage bonus /o\
Illwill Bill Svea Rike Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2010.10.23 18:29:00 - [307] Edited by: Illwill Bill on 23/10/2010 18:33:01 T2 ships are more specialized variants of their T1 counterparts. This means they are intended for one specific role, while T1 ships can often be more versatile. Frigates are the basic ship class in Eve. There's plenty of them, and they can be used in a myriad of ways. The specialized variants include interceptors, designed for chasing down and tackling other targets, assault frigates, which are supposedly small assault craft (srsly, CCP, fix those instead!), stealth bombers, which are designed for surprise attacks, as well as several other types. A destroyer is a ship class specifically intended to provide anti-frigate support for larger vessels, as well as hunting down and terminating said frigates on their own. This means that there is not really anything that says that an interceptor should be able to blow a destroyer, just because said interceptor is a T2 vessel. After all, the destroyer is designed for fighting small, fast targets. The situation is a bit different when the destroyer is facing the considerably toughter assault frigates. Those are made for being tougher, and to be more powerful than the other frigates (at least I think that's what CCP originally intended). If we bring the scales up a notch, we can see that cruisers, just like frigates, come in different colours and flavours. The example that often mentioned in this thread is the heavy assault cruisers. Judging from the name, they are the evil cruiser-editions of the assault frigates; faster, harder, and packing a nasty punch. It's no wonder that AB-HAC's is the HAC FOTM. Battlecruisers, on the other hand, is an evolution of the cruisers, and as the name implies they are combat ships. Just like destroyers, they use the same size of weapons as their smaller siblings, and they have many more of them. This basically means that the battlecruisers will do full damage to cruiser-sized targets, while doing considerably more damage than the cruisers thanks to the fact that they have more weaponry. Thus, battlecruisers are intended to do full damage against cruiser-sized targets. Additionally, their larger size makes them much more durable than any cruiser. Yes, they are actually supposed to defeat most cruisers, including the T2 variants. HAC's are a possible exception, as they are supposed to be tougher and meaner than other cruisers. However, as I see it, that doesn't mean they always have to out-gun and out-last all other ships smaller than a battleship. Let's face it: The battlecruisers are the second-most powerful sub-capital ship class in the game. This means that a T2 cruiser doesn'thave to win every 1v1 against one. So please, stop using the "Waaaah, I trained skills for years and now the nubs still win" arguments. I expected a lot more from PL. Now the matter at hand is if the Drake is overpowered compared to other battlecruisers. I personally don't think so, but considering this is an interwebs srsbznz forum, there is obvioulsy people who will disagree. But seriously, let's keep the discussion about battlecruisers. Edit @ Monkey: I am maintaining my opinion regarding the Drakes DPS, which I don't find overpowered. The suggestion to trade alpha for RoF was just that: A way to reduce the alpha, making the ship less interesting for fleets, while maintaining the carebear's beloved DPS for PvE. Originally by: CCP Navigator Great story but you probably want this in CAOD so feel free to post there with your main.
Larkonis Trassler Neo Spartans Laconian Syndicate	Posted - 2010.10.23 18:46:00 - [308] I don't see anything wrong with Drakes as such. They are low cost, low entry requirement, simple to fly and more than anything FUN. Heavy missiles could do with a bit of a nerf though to both damage and range for Furies. Forgive my EFT warrioring but a Drake with 3 damage mods does 462 DPS out to 75km with it's CLOSE range T2 ammo wheras an artycane/beamharb with 3 damage mods and 2 TEs can manage 486/534 dps at 9.7+36/7.5+10 respectively and have to worry about tracking and all that jazz (you can argue about sig/explosion radius but the missiles will always hit and always do at least some damage, in fact with max skills furies still have a velocity/radius of 145/161 so will still hit most cruisers for full damage). The numbers become more depressing when LR T2 ammo for the turrets is used if the cane/harb try to close the range gap getting 278@70+36 and 305@54+10.
Nvee	Posted - 2010.10.23 19:35:00 - [309] Dramiel..... Aeon.... Vagabond.... just saying...
Quesa D00M. Northern Coalition.	Posted - 2010.10.23 19:52:00 - [310] Originally by: Nvee Dramiel..... Aeon.... Vagabond.... just saying... Yes, lets just homogenize the game where everything has an equal chance against everything else. We'll start by changing all ship bonuses to be the same in each of their hull size class and work from there. Brilliant post. I had planned on using them to fix fleet lag but was talked out of it. -CCP Zulu

lol internets North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2010.10.23 20:09:00 - [311] Originally by: Larkonis Trassler I don't see anything wrong with Drakes as such. They are low cost, low entry requirement, simple to fly and more than anything FUN. Heavy missiles could do with a bit of a nerf though to both damage and range for Furies. Forgive my EFT warrioring but a Drake with 3 damage mods does 462 DPS out to 75km with it's CLOSE range T2 ammo wheras an artycane/beamharb with 3 damage mods and 2 TEs can manage 486/534 dps at 9.7+36/7.5+10 respectively and have to worry about tracking and all that jazz (you can argue about sig/explosion radius but the missiles will always hit and always do at least some damage, in fact with max skills furies still have a velocity/radius of 145/161 so will still hit most cruisers for full damage). The numbers become more depressing when LR T2 ammo for the turrets is used if the cane/harb try to close the range gap getting 278@70+36 and 305@54+10. Sorry, but we don't take kindly to your law-bending kind around here.
The 3of5	Posted - 2010.10.23 20:32:00 - [312] Originally by: OT Smithers Originally by: Shade Millith Edited by: Shade Millith on 22/10/2010 11:40:29 No Caldari have a good ship finally for PVP, you even say yourself that one by itself isn't OP Quote: Drakes on their own are reasonably balanced Don't screw over small gang's/soloer that use drakes. Why don't you go nerf amarr? I mean Amarr BS's are the most popular for BS gangs and zealots are the ship of choice for A-HAC gangs. Edit: How about you buff raven/rokh so they can fit into BS gangs? Amaar don't fire missiles.
Illwill Bill Svea Rike Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2010.10.23 20:41:00 - [313] Yes, I do approve boosting the Sac by making it's bonuses apply to HML's as well. Originally by: CCP Navigator Great story but you probably want this in CAOD so feel free to post there with your main.
Captain Mung	Posted - 2010.10.23 20:41:00 - [314] Originally by: Noemi Nagano Excellent point. 1on1 HACs are not meant to be able to beat their BC counterparts easily. So there is no reason a Drake fleet should NOT be able to kill an AHAC fleet. Else you would need to nerf all BCs or buff all HACs. Problem is the lag - fix it and dont nerf a well balanced ship, which still is the only one useful for Caldari in fleet COMBAT. (Or do you want to fix Cruise Missiles so they are able to hit AHACs good enough ;) ) If that's the case, then a Harb gang, or a Myrm gang, or a Cane gang should be able to accomplish similar results and be used just as often to counter AHAC fleets. The problem is they can't and are not. IMO the Cerb should have states like the Drake does now, seeing as the Cerb is more than double the cost but doesn't really do any better than the Drake.
Soporo Caldari	Posted - 2010.10.23 20:49:00 - [315] Edited by: Soporo on 23/10/2010 20:51:09 Quote: This is pure facepalm, Chronotis[/b]. Sorry. As others have stated, the entire point of shield-tanking is that it allows you to choose both gank and tank - at the cost of tackle and ewar. You seem more concerned by theoretical balance issues - that the Drake finds it easier to fit HMLs than a Hurricane does artillery - rather than the reality. Such as the domination of armour HAC fleets by Zealots, or sniper fleets by the Apocalypse? Seeing Angel ships everywhere? Or carrier fleets only of Archons? Or the complete absence of shield tanks at BS-level or larger? You realise that you're criticising the only case where shields are currently useful in fleet? Yay for diversity... Sort out shield transporter CPU issues, railguns, the Eagle, Scorch and pulse laser tracking, then Drake changes might be slightly more acceptable. Anyway, the problem isn't the Drake, it's the fleet fights. Get rid of the (super)capital proliferation that has driven BS from the field and you'll see the attractiveness of the Drake for proper fleet work disappear. Gypsio raises some good points here. Pretty much my opinion on the matter as well. Drake as it is now is fine, its basically one of the only caldari T1 ships worth taking out to PVP these days. This is also a reason many caldari players use it, because its the only decent choice for bigger gangs. Fixing Rail guns, Ferox, Eagle, shield RR (just look at the sad state of capital fleets and capital RR) would go a long way to make other caldari ships actually useful (other then the Falcon and Rook).
Kail Storm Caldari	Posted - 2010.10.23 20:55:00 - [316] Most peeps crying Drakes are OP`d were the same Idiots who said "it could never PVP" since it came out and "Anyone who PVP`s in a Drake is an idiot" Lol its hillarious finally the idiots of Eve realize a ships potential that hasn`t changed since QR and all the sudden its OP`d. If its OP`d you morons it has been since 2 Years ago, why now? Because now your getting pwned by the simpletons ship that you said sucked and are embarrassed? So you get Pwned by a ship that sucked then and hasnt changed so you want a nerf? To the only viable fleet Ship Cald has, you are all morons. And to whoever said HM`s need Nerf is also a Moron, Caracal is already underpowered, Cerb in+70km fights is useless, So you want to nerf a funtional Weapon that is balanced? These are also the same morons that said QR was a nerf to HML`s and the same peeps who laughed at peeps using HML Drakes...Lol how the idiots tables have turned. -------------------------------------------------- "If Eve Was P*rn, It would be a Snuff film, First you get screwed then you get killed" -Me
Illwill Bill Svea Rike Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2010.10.23 21:10:00 - [317] Actually, balancing HML's might actually be a good idea, as long as HAM's are revisited at the same time. If they are converted into a proper close-range weapon, and have their fitting requirements adjusted, then it might just work. On the other hand, that might make the Drake a close-range monster. Originally by: CCP Navigator Great story but you probably want this in CAOD so feel free to post there with your main.
TehFailGuy	Posted - 2010.10.23 21:24:00 - [318] Originally by: Aerilis So we all know how everyone says Drakes are OP, but I'd like to bring a new side of this discussion to the forefront--the long range, HML Drake. I have recently learned (the hard way) that Drakes can dominate long-range battlecruiser combat--check out this fit: Quote: [Drake, hml] Damage Control II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile [empty high slot] Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Hobgoblin II x5 This setup does 561 DPS with drones (60km) and 462 DPS all the way out to its locking range (75km) On top of this incredible DPS, it has a ridiculous 83k EHP and it can target paint smaller targets, totally raping frigs and other tackle and making sure the Fury missiles do full damage to all targets. Try to make any ships smaller than a BS come even close to these stats... you simply can't. I don't have the skills for a Drake, so I tried to counter with beam Harbs, arty Hurricanes, even rail Feroxes. Play with EFT, see how pathetic these setups are for yourself compared to the Drake. Sure the missiles take a few seconds to hit their target, but the stats are simply ridiculous... Thoughts? Kill them with Amarr BS?
Tub Chil	Posted - 2010.10.23 22:15:00 - [319] introduce missile disruptors?
Von Kroll Caldari Kroll's Legion	Posted - 2010.10.23 22:16:00 - [320] Originally by: Acru Si Solo or in small gangs drakes are not much of a threat (caldari ship after all). Its when they reach critical mass numbers and get logistics support(in medium-big fleets) that they begin to outperform other battlecruisers. This would apply to any ship in the game. You get 50 Scorpions flying together in a coordinated blob, they'll shut down any other gang of equivalent size. You get 50 Arty Canes together, and they'll alpha everything else on the field. This all boils down to one characteristic: There are more Drake-capable BC pilots in the game than any other BC. IMO there is one very conspicuous solution to large Drake fleets, but there aren't enough people willing to think out of the FOTM box to make it happen...

Illwill Bill Svea Rike Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2010.10.23 22:34:00 - [321] You surely can't be suggesting that people should use defenders? I mean, if the Drakes alone cause lag, then someone spamming defenders as well, would be TQ armageddon. Originally by: CCP Navigator Great story but you probably want this in CAOD so feel free to post there with your main.
OT Smithers	Posted - 2010.10.23 22:36:00 - [322] CCP would never have initiated this nonsense if the decision had noit already been made -- the Drake is gonna be nerfed and nerfed HARD. CCP gave the reason: they do not want missile spam in fleet PvP. For Caldari pilots, and new players considering Caldari, this means that unless they are exclusively interested in PvE they would be fools to stick with it. Sad, but there it is. Caldari is now officially the gimped PvE race, and by design.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.10.23 23:02:00 - [323] Originally by: CCP Chronotis It is a hot topic internally as the number of drakes present in fleet fights is rising dramatically in the last six months... The Drake hasn't changed in the last six months. If people are using Drake blobs now, when they weren't six months ago, maybe you should look at what actually has changed in the past six months? Such as BS fleets being obsoleted by Zealot/Guardian fleets? Or supercarrier fleets? Or logistics being unable to cope with the delayed missile damage because of laaaaaag?
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.10.23 23:12:00 - [324] Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 23/10/2010 23:15:54 Quote: You get 50 Arty Canes together... Just to emphasise the point he was making, 50 artycanes with the setup my corp uses is an alpha of 110,000 at 70km. Which hits instantly. Just saying. Any guesses what the new blob-battlecruiser will be if the Drake gets a nerf? _________________________________ ROCKET STATUS: FIX IN PROGRESS...
shimarri	Posted - 2010.10.23 23:22:00 - [325] this is confusing, about 8 months ago i joined GC with an alt, tried for 2 weeks to get in a fleet with my drake and no fc wanted me in their fleet so i left the corp. WTF?
I likegirls Minmatar	Posted - 2010.10.23 23:45:00 - [326] Originally by: shimarri this is confusing, about 8 months ago i joined GC with an alt, tried for 2 weeks to get in a fleet with my drake and no fc wanted me in their fleet so i left the corp. WTF? My time line is a little bit fuzzy over the years, but I think that is in the ballpark of when GC was deployed against the North. They were probably doing battleships and capitals mostly. Drakes are not desired in armor bs/hac fleets or in cap fleets. GC had a lot of drake army fleets for roams though.
Evengard Solar Dragons SOLAR FLEET	Posted - 2010.10.24 00:32:00 - [327] Yes, currently drake is a bit overpowered, comparing to other battlecruisers. But there is few moments that should taking in account. 1) Missiles, they need to be changed. 2) CCP. They like to do balance, by nerfing ships into stone age, so noone want to fly them anymore. IMO drakes resist bonus should be changed to something else (like missile velocity\percision) ________________ Recon and Intercept
Liz Viscious Caldari The Order of Fish and Chips	Posted - 2010.10.24 00:39:00 - [328] All i'd like to know is... what's caldari going to use instead? I'm not the intelligent fleet veteran here, but the vast majority of what I see in combat records, posts on the forums, pvp strategy articles, and player blogs is that caldari right now = drake for most intents and purposes. What a I missing, if anything? Is the future of caldari post drake nerf that dismal? Should I be cross training now to head off the nerf? /regrets focusing her training on shield tanking and missile launchers
Shade Millith Caldari Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2010.10.24 01:01:00 - [329] Originally by: Cpt Tunguska Originally by: Furb Killer Lol @ comparing drake and vaga to use as whine fuel. There are counters, BCs counter cruisers. BS's counter BCs. If you want to counter drakes you should not use cruisers but battleships. And what if BCs dont counter HACs (which they do not too great btw, AB hacs will normally beat drake armies), what should be used? Super carriers? Since battleships definately are not the usual counter against AB hacs. Where can I read ccp's statement that dumb Drakes are the official counter for HACs? Imho shiny skill-intensive and expensive HACs should be better than than scrubships. As I've said before, attacking a BC in a HAC is generally a suicide charge 1v1, why would it be different in a 50v50 gang? Hell, there was a huge fleet fight last night. BS and BC's. You know what was the most common BS by far? Amarr. How about we nerf the Amarr BS's since they're so popular in BS gangs? Man, Dram's are a class above nearly all other frigates, and are the fastest possible frigate, probably could look at that. ------------------------
Captain Sweatervest	Posted - 2010.10.24 01:55:00 - [330] Originally by: Liz Viscious /regrets focusing her training on shield tanking and missile launchers You clearly missed the proper history lesson prior to training (presumably for pvp)... Shield tanking has not been anything but sub-optimal and more on the down-right bad side for ages. Similarly, missiles in general were never sought after due to the delay before damage is applied (with enough ships shooting at one target, chances are your missiles will not get there before it explodes or repping is applied) so it's an inferior blitz damage system. I would advise you to get some armor tanking skills and gunnery or look into stealth bombers.



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