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Drakes - Do they need a nerf?

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Aerilis Gallente Percussive Diplomacy	Posted - 2010.10.04 17:17:00 - [1] So we all know how everyone says Drakes are OP, but I'd like to bring a new side of this discussion to the forefront--the long range, HML Drake. I have recently learned (the hard way) that Drakes can dominate long-range battlecruiser combat--check out this fit: Quote: [Drake, hml] Damage Control II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile [empty high slot] Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Hobgoblin II x5 This setup does 561 DPS with drones (60km) and 462 DPS all the way out to its locking range (75km) On top of this incredible DPS, it has a ridiculous 83k EHP and it can target paint smaller targets, totally raping frigs and other tackle and making sure the Fury missiles do full damage to all targets. Try to make any ships smaller than a BS come even close to these stats... you simply can't. I don't have the skills for a Drake, so I tried to counter with beam Harbs, arty Hurricanes, even rail Feroxes. Play with EFT, see how pathetic these setups are for yourself compared to the Drake. Sure the missiles take a few seconds to hit their target, but the stats are simply ridiculous... Thoughts?
LordElfa	Posted - 2010.10.04 17:52:00 - [2] My thought is that I'm going to go build this right now.
Whitehound The Whitehound Corporation	Posted - 2010.10.04 18:32:00 - [3] If you want to nerf Drakes then make them pink. Oh, and your DPS numbers only apply for stationary targets. --
Korg Leaf Time Bandits. Black Cartel.	Posted - 2010.10.04 18:51:00 - [4] Not only that but how does that fit keep people in place
Aerilis Gallente Percussive Diplomacy	Posted - 2010.10.04 20:39:00 - [5] Originally by: Whitehound If you want to nerf Drakes then make them pink. Oh, and your DPS numbers only apply for stationary targets. As is the case for any weapon in Eve. Originally by: Korg Leaf Not only that but how does that fit keep people in place It's a range setup dude... not much point having tackle at 50km+ is there? You'll either have Arazus pointing things for you, a support fleet of tackle on the enemy, or you're just taking pot shots at each other... I've been in all of the above situations.
darius mclever	Posted - 2010.10.04 20:57:00 - [6] the irony. after all those years of people laughing on drakes and how useless they are in pvp. anyway back to the topic: caldari always had been pretty good on damaging from range while other stuff tackles. and the drake isnt much different. though while the other BCs have often problems with fitting a similar good buffer, they can usually get at least similar (theoretical) dps. and the volley e.g. from 720 canes can make pretty short work of things before logistics can safe people.
Meeko Atari	Posted - 2010.10.04 20:58:00 - [7] Originally by: Aerilis Originally by: Whitehound If you want to nerf Drakes then make them pink. Oh, and your DPS numbers only apply for stationary targets. As is the case for any weapon in Eve. Originally by: Korg Leaf Not only that but how does that fit keep people in place It's a range setup dude... not much point having tackle at 50km+ is there? You'll either have Arazus pointing things for you, a support fleet of tackle on the enemy, or you're just taking pot shots at each other... I've been in all of the above situations. Just to clarify, You want the Drake nerfed because in a specialized gang / fleet with Recon support to dictate range and put points on your target, some possible Scimi's / and command bonuses running? Seems like that's the description of a Caldari ships to me.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar	Posted - 2010.10.04 21:04:00 - [8] Oh look, an EFT warrior. All missileboats do more damage at long range than gunboats. Check out the stats of a cruise raven vs a sniper geddon or a cerb vs zealot.
Mag's the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2010.10.04 21:13:00 - [9] No Originally by: Allestin Villimar Also, if your bookmarks are too far out, they can and will ban you for it. Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive.
Valarre	Posted - 2010.10.04 21:27:00 - [10] How about instead of nerfing drakes we make the other battlecruisers better. For example the worthless bruitx, and ferox. Although they are still technically the tier 1 bc's. I don't know the myrmiddon is awesome, the hurricane is awesome, and so is the harbinger. Actually tbh you are full of crap, all the tier 2 bc's are pretty damned good. Drakes don't need a nerf.

darius mclever	Posted - 2010.10.04 21:31:00 - [11] uhm ... also the Tier 1 BCs are pretty good when piloted and fitted properly. you might want to take a look on kil2's or garmon's or endless subversion's videos. and tbh ... in LR BC fleets i would much rather sit in a ferox (resist bonus ftw) than in a brutix or harb. (if there is no drake on sale.)
Valarre	Posted - 2010.10.04 21:39:00 - [12] actually I would a take a harb over the ferox any day, if I had the laser skills up to a decent level.
Dengen Krastinov Amarr Navy of Xoc Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2010.10.04 21:51:00 - [13] false
Aerilis Gallente Percussive Diplomacy	Posted - 2010.10.04 22:45:00 - [14] Yes, I EFT quite a bit, but I came to think HML Drake's are OP because of in game encounters... I'm in Gallente militia, so we fight the Caldari militia.. ahem Drakes. Lately they all fit for range, and just stay out of our range. We try to counter with range BCs as well, but obviously we don't have as many Drake pilots. Like I said, TRY to make a range fit for any other BC. We still manage to fight them with smart warp-ins and such, but my point is that no other BC comes even REMOTELY close to the range capabilities of the Drake.
Valarre	Posted - 2010.10.04 22:57:00 - [15] Originally by: Aerilis Yes, I EFT quite a bit, but I came to think HML Drake's are OP because of in game encounters... I'm in Gallente militia, so we fight the Caldari militia.. ahem Drakes. Lately they all fit for range, and just stay out of our range. We try to counter with range BCs as well, but obviously we don't have as many Drake pilots. Like I said, TRY to make a range fit for any other BC. We still manage to fight them with smart warp-ins and such, but my point is that no other BC comes even REMOTELY close to the range capabilities of the Drake. Tactics are the key. In reality you are just looking for a way to fight without tactics by trying to make the drake lame. Why not nut up and fight them with tactics? Maybe turn to other ships that may be more effective against them. Like a bunch of ecm ships. Perhaps climb into a bunch of blackbirds to counter them? I always thought it would be interesting to see like 10 blackbirds all ecm'd up to the gill go against any other slew of ships. What would be even more hilarious is what kind of damage would 30-50 of them do? 10 blackbirds should easily lock down 20 drakes permanently, but it might be hard breaking the tank, although 30 t2 heavy launchers could break a drake tank easily as long as all the blackbirds concentrated on a single target at a time. Add to the mix of a recon ship providing an adequate warp in point and tackle could be quite devastating. If you are among a group of guys with little skills a blackbird would be perfect.
Misanthra	Posted - 2010.10.04 23:11:00 - [16] Edited by: Misanthra on 04/10/2010 23:12:15 your fit is missing the damn near standard em and thermal rigs pvp rigs. Yes it has high ehp...it also has the crappy em hole famous on caldari ships with thermal coming in a close second. DCU and 2 invuls help but as a drake pilot lets just say you still don't like seeing these damage types come in. You don't have sensor boost. Drakes lock slow as hell even with them and fleet boosted. Get some jammers in fleet, will be endless fun having drakes spend forever retargetting. In fleet engagements chances are real small of finding shield reppers in numbers. Ding a drake and unless they took tactical shield manipulation to 5 at 75 percent shields (time sink most put off) shots start to get through and drakes are real squishy at armor and structure. hobs are pve drones. Warriors can actually keep up to a inty pilot and make them work a bit to keep point while playing with your little friends. basically you posted a pve fit here...ratting drakes die all the time. Have died in few tbh when being stupid or asleep on the belts.
Seishi Maru Organization for Nuclear Research	Posted - 2010.10.05 00:06:00 - [17] Originally by: Aerilis Yes, I EFT quite a bit, but I came to think HML Drake's are OP because of in game encounters... I'm in Gallente militia, so we fight the Caldari militia.. ahem Drakes. Lately they all fit for range, and just stay out of our range. We try to counter with range BCs as well, but obviously we don't have as many Drake pilots. Like I said, TRY to make a range fit for any other BC. We still manage to fight them with smart warp-ins and such, but my point is that no other BC comes even REMOTELY close to the range capabilities of the Drake. You letting them figth on their terms and complain they win? You need to force them into YOUR terms. Sensor dampen them, and land blasterthrons on top of them. Then you will be playing by your terms. Drakes usually are not exactly the best BC against a short Range battleship sicne they cannot even keep range of a gallente or minmatar battleship.
Naomi Wildfire Amarr Stardust Heavy Industries Majesta Empire	Posted - 2010.10.05 00:24:00 - [18] if you think the Brutix/Ferox are bad, you seriously lack skill. I love the ferox. "i'd take a Harbinger over a Ferox" Yeah, because comparing tier1 to tier2 is a good thing. I still can give you hell in my Ferox.
Aerilis Gallente Percussive Diplomacy	Posted - 2010.10.05 00:35:00 - [19] Originally by: Naomi Wildfire if you think the Brutix/Ferox are bad, you seriously lack skill. I love the ferox. "i'd take a Harbinger over a Ferox" Yeah, because comparing tier1 to tier2 is a good thing. I still can give you hell in my Ferox. http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=6422765
Misanthra	Posted - 2010.10.05 01:22:00 - [20] Originally by: Seishi Maru You letting them figth on their terms and complain they win? You need to force them into YOUR terms. Sensor dampen them, and land blasterthrons on top of them. Then you will be playing by your terms. Drakes usually are not exactly the best BC against a short Range battleship sicne they cannot even keep range of a gallente or minmatar battleship. This....one time, back in band camp, support fleet got a bad warp in. I mean really bad. So bad you could see the crew of the ship in the windows of the enemy ships laughing and giving us the finger as the sr fleet went to town. 3 shot kills on drakes. First basically shredded shields, 2nd killed the small remnant of shield and most of the armor, 3rd shot and it was over. Okay, 4 shots...called warp in was in a mess of bubbles, found a quick way home at least lol. Didn't want those +3's anyway lol.

Jaggati Khan	Posted - 2010.10.05 03:20:00 - [21] Originally by: darius mclever the irony. after all those years of people laughing on drakes and how useless they are in pvp. anyway back to the topic: caldari always had been pretty good on damaging from range while other stuff tackles. and the drake isnt much different. though while the other BCs have often problems with fitting a similar good buffer, they can usually get at least similar (theoretical) dps. and the volley e.g. from 720 canes can make pretty short work of things before logistics can safe people. didnt think id say this but clever is absolutetly right, i never thought that people would ask for yet another drake nerf... So drakes have good range, their also damn good up close - but you get too close to a harb or myrm and your likely to get chewed up, spat out and seriuosly trampled on, arty canes for insta alpha strike are also good - tbh if you want to combat that fleet simple use zealots and guardians - or start fitting defenders that might be amusing.. :p The drake does have a bloody good tank but only when you dont fit mwd, point, web and tp - for fleet stuff caldari have generally always been good ships as the shield tanks (when not needing ewar) are bloody good, but they are slow and no as versatile as others (on a personal basis) btw, youtube eveonline ironclad :p
Valarre	Posted - 2010.10.05 05:41:00 - [22] Originally by: Aerilis Originally by: Naomi Wildfire if you think the Brutix/Ferox are bad, you seriously lack skill. I love the ferox. "i'd take a Harbinger over a Ferox" Yeah, because comparing tier1 to tier2 is a good thing. I still can give you hell in my Ferox. http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=6422765 This guy let you get in range of those blasters. Blasters will undeniably melt you away when in range. However if he kept you out of range the battle would have gone differently. How close was the fight?
Herzog Wolfhammer Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2010.10.05 06:27:00 - [23] Because of Drake?
Sleipnyrr	Posted - 2010.10.05 06:28:00 - [24] That fit is terrible m8, first off it needs a point, secondly if you want to control range your going to be need 1 or 2 nanos.
Typhado3 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.10.05 09:12:00 - [25] Edited by: Typhado3 on 05/10/2010 09:17:12 Originally by: Aerilis no other BC comes even REMOTELY close to the range capabilities of the Drake. I don't see a problem here. Caldari are the range focused race, trying to outsnipe a caldari is like trying to outrun a minmatar or outbuffer tank an amarr or outgay a gallente (sorry I don't fly gallente so I got nfi on them). The problem I see is when races don't have many strengths or are weak in their strengths (possibly gallente). Or when a race is actually strong in their supposed weakness, Amarr intercepters. ------------------------------ God is an afk cloaker
Space Pinata Amarr Discount Napkin Industries	Posted - 2010.10.05 09:43:00 - [26] Edited by: Space Pinata on 05/10/2010 09:45:22 Fury missiles are terrible at hitting small targets. You're forgetting something important. Missiles take a long time to hit. If a target lives for a matter of minutes this might not be much of an issue. But in any fight lasting under a minute (and remember; this is per ship, not total.) At max range, you're talking about 13 seconds before your first missiles hit. At 70km, the Beam Harbinger only does 305 DPS, as compared to 462. However; assuming they lock at the same time, the Harbinger has a 13 second head start. By the time the drakes first volley hits, the Harbinger has already dealt 3965 damage. At a DPS advantage of 157 damage/second, it then takes 25 seconds for the drake to catch up. 38 seconds in, both will have done about 11500. (11500 harb, 11550 drake). 60 seconds in: The harbinger will have done 18300 damage, the drake will have done 21714. tl;dr for people who don't want to read math: In a sniper fight, the Harbinger is at a DPS advantage for the first 38 seconds. At a full minute, the drake has managed to deal 15~% more damage than the harbinger. So the Harbinger (even 300~ dps vs 450~) wins if your primaries go down fast, and the drake wins slightly in a slower battle, much more significantly if you spend several minutes shooting one target (this should never happen in a fleet big enough to actually use sniping tactics. Just saying.) And at close range: A beam harbinger with navy multifreq's will deal 684 dps. So at close range the harbinger wins by a large margin. The only advantage drakes have over other battlecruisers is their battleship-worthy EHP.
Jaggati Khan	Posted - 2010.10.05 12:04:00 - [27] Originally by: Space Pinata The only advantage drakes have over other battlecruisers is their battleship-worthy EHP. but they DO have extremely low resist to em/therm damage - even with a hardner or amp if the drake does have higher em resists its likely that its still quite susceptible to kin/therm damage :)
Whitehound The Whitehound Corporation	Posted - 2010.10.05 13:39:00 - [28] Originally by: Aerilis Originally by: Whitehound If you want to nerf Drakes then make them pink. Oh, and your DPS numbers only apply for stationary targets. As is the case for any weapon in Eve. No. Missile damage always gets a penalty with moving targets, and most of the targets you encounter are moving. The theoretical DPS numbers for missiles need to be higher in comparison to other weapons in order for you to compare them at all. If you really factor in all possible variables (range, speed, expl. radius, expl. speed, tracking, optimal, falloff, signature, damage types, etc.) will you be comparing apples with oranges, and the peak DPS numbers become meaningless when taken out of their context (aka ship setups). In short, looking at theoretical DPS numbers is a waste of time. Even worse, when you start talking of DPS while you are also talking of eHP are you going to create a artificial trade-off between the two without knowing what the best ratio between DPS and eHP is, or how much is sufficient for a task. You are then only going to ignore and sacrifice other factors, like not having a web on your Drake or receiving a penalty for your 2nd target painter (as somebody above already mentioned). --
Natasha Hec Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2010.10.05 14:10:00 - [29] Drakes dont need a nerf, there you go question answered
Naomi Wildfire Amarr Stardust Heavy Industries Majesta Empire	Posted - 2010.10.05 14:39:00 - [30] Originally by: Aerilis Originally by: Naomi Wildfire if you think the Brutix/Ferox are bad, you seriously lack skill. I love the ferox. "i'd take a Harbinger over a Ferox" Yeah, because comparing tier1 to tier2 is a good thing. I still can give you hell in my Ferox. http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=6422765 still love this one =) http://kb.thelynennor.de/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15995



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