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Sokor Loro
Fweddit
I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
55
   |
Posted - 2012.08.02 18:28:00 -
[61] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:For crying out loud. This is not a bug.
Every person in FW knows about this mechanic. FCs call out to spam the activate button on any warp-in to an accel gate when it is known that enemies are camping it. I do not believe for a second that this only happens on the Minmatar side. It happens the same with every faction. If enemies are camping an accel gate, FCs in every faction are going to call out over comms to spam the activate button. This pushes everyone into a session change before the enemy can react.
I'm a new-er FW player in a new-er FW alliance, but I have never heard this even talked about in comms, much less told to do. There was genuine shock and surprise by everyone in Fweddit comms, and as far as I know no one spoke up to tell anyone it was intended. People assumed it was a bug that developed in one of the inferno patches. I've honestly begun to think this is just a misunderstanding. |
Rezig Huruta
Autocannons Anonymous
Late Night Alliance
44
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 18:30:00 -
[62] - Quote
Callous Jade wrote:Vordak Kallager wrote:What would the point be of even having ship-restricted combat PLEXes (always a defining feature of Faction Warfare) if the acceleration gates didn't work like this? It would more or less eliminate their usefulness as a tool to manage bigger numbers and bigger hulls. So why not just do away with the acceleration gates all together and make it impossible for an over-sized ship to warp to those plexes? Seriously, I find it hard to believe that you are stupid enough to believe the crap that comes out of your own mouth sometimes, Vordak.
Because Vordak didn't design the system, he's stating that the acceleration gate serves the purpose of ship restriction, which is important to maintain.
Doing away with the acceleration gate would be awesome, but I imagine it would require huge change in the code. Remember, plexes are spawned as discrete entities when scanned. They are 'instances' and are based on rules different than a moon (for example) or a grav site (both which have no restrictions to ship class).
The acceleration gate code is based off the ones used in missions to restrict ship class. CCP already HAS a module (in the code that makes up Eve) that restricts ships. Why would they create a NEW METHOD to solve a problem they already have a solution to?
Just because you can say it, doesn't mean that it can be done within the confines of programming. |
Poetic Stanziel
Autocannons Anonymous
Late Night Alliance
1060
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 18:56:00 -
[63] - Quote
If everyone wants acceleration gate camping to be a viable tactic (and I wouldn't disagree with the desire for this), then simply have the warp-in point on acceleration gates be X km from the 0 km border. Basically, everyone has to travel at least (X - 2.5) km before they can activate the gate.
That seems like a simple and doable solution for CCP.
(You have to be within 2.5km of an accel gate to activate it correct? If not, adjust the equation above with the correct value.)
The STAIN Travel Bookmark Collection - 451 Bookmarks |
Thomas Kreshant
Fweddit
I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
141
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 19:04:00 -
[64] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
(You have to be within 2.5km of an accel gate to activate it correct? If not, adjust the equation above with the correct value.)
Warping to 10 and you still count as if you warped to 0 and lets you activate the gate which is very odd imho |
Gritz1
Ice Fire Warriors
Late Night Alliance
94
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 19:07:00 -
[65] - Quote
Im pretty sure we didnt make a post when the amarr were doing this constantly, including fweddit, in front of our faces. |
Vordak Kallager
Autocannons Anonymous
Late Night Alliance
354
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 19:07:00 -
[66] - Quote
Callous Jade wrote:Vordak Kallager wrote:What would the point be of even having ship-restricted combat PLEXes (always a defining feature of Faction Warfare) if the acceleration gates didn't work like this? It would more or less eliminate their usefulness as a tool to manage bigger numbers and bigger hulls. So why not just do away with the acceleration gates all together and make it impossible for an over-sized ship to warp to those plexes? Seriously, I find it hard to believe that you are stupid enough to believe the crap that comes out of your own mouth sometimes, Vordak.
Yeah, that would be fine too. Not sure why you think what I said is stupid, but whatever man.
EDIT - Rezig pointed out a few posts above this that changing this mechanic to simply bypass the whole acceleration gate be a) fixing something that isn't broke (waste of Dev time) and b) changing something that is probably buried in years of code and would be hard to do from a programming perspective. Good point, Rez.
Sa souvraya niende misain ye. |
Vordak Kallager
Autocannons Anonymous
Late Night Alliance
354
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 19:12:00 -
[67] - Quote
Thomas Kreshant wrote:Poetic Stanziel wrote:
(You have to be within 2.5km of an accel gate to activate it correct? If not, adjust the equation above with the correct value.)
Warping to 10 and you still count as if you warped to 0 and lets you activate the gate which is very odd imho
I agree this is odd. Warping to 0 puts you right on top of the structure itself which can then get in the way of your alignment and prevent you from warping. Warping to 10 puts you within it's activation radius but far enough away that you dont get yourself caught on the physical structure of the acceleration gate itself.
As for Fweddit (in general) not knowing about this mechanic... you are new to Faction Warfare and you learn something new every day. The more you know, or what ever.
Sa souvraya niende misain ye. |
Poetic Stanziel
Autocannons Anonymous
Late Night Alliance
1061
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 19:14:00 -
[68] - Quote
Thomas Kreshant wrote:Poetic Stanziel wrote:
(You have to be within 2.5km of an accel gate to activate it correct? If not, adjust the equation above with the correct value.)
Warping to 10 and you still count as if you warped to 0 and lets you activate the gate which is very odd imho I stated the 0 km border or a reason.
CCP has simply wrapped the acceleration gate in a very large ellipsoid. Anything within that ellipsoid is 0 km.
My suggestion is to set the warp-in point X km outside the border of that ellipsoid.
The STAIN Travel Bookmark Collection - 451 Bookmarks |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
515
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 19:22:00 -
[69] - Quote
Two step wrote:My personal opinion is that this seems like a bug, and it should be fixed. I'll leave the exploit determination to CCP.
I would ask that you reconsider this. The point of having these restrictions is to encourage combat with a variety of ships. Having gangs camp accelleration gates ruins this.
Also it doesn't work entirely like a normal system gate. If you get scrammed before you hit the jump button you are scrammed. So if you for example burn toward an enemy at the accell gate and get scrammed you can not then just decide to jump.
The "bug" if it is a bug, works especially well when your ship ends up getting caught in the gate itself.
This is working as it should work. If people want to fight then get in the right ship for the plex and fight inside the plex.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Callous Jade
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
23
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 19:46:00 -
[70] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Two step wrote:My personal opinion is that this seems like a bug, and it should be fixed. I'll leave the exploit determination to CCP. I would ask that you reconsider this. The point of having these restrictions is to encourage combat with a variety of ships. Having gangs camp accelleration gates ruins this. Also it doesn't work entirely like a normal system gate. If you get scrammed before you hit the jump button you are scrammed. So if you for example burn toward an enemy at the accell gate and get scrammed you can not then just decide to jump. The "bug" if it is a bug, works especially well when your ship ends up getting caught in the gate itself. This is working as it should work. If people want to fight then get in the right ship for the plex and fight inside the plex.
This is a poor argument and stinks of desire for a theme park/arena atmosphere in FW. The restrictions INSIDE the plex should be the limitation of this mechanic and if you cannot safely get your ship through the accel gate, too damn bad. As a defender, you already have the advantage of docking rights and thus being able to ship up/down and reship faster than an attacking fleet which, by virtue of this buggy mechanic, has no alternative than to jump out of system, reship, jump back (while facing the risk of tackle at each jump) and then warp into the plex where the defending force is already setup at range and having loaded grid. If the opposing force alreadt in system, albeit oversized, beats the defending fleet to the accel gate then you SHOULD run the risk of losing several ships to fast tackle while trying to crash the gate. |
Vordak Kallager
Autocannons Anonymous
Late Night Alliance
357
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 19:50:00 -
[71] - Quote
Callous Jade wrote:Cearain wrote:Two step wrote:My personal opinion is that this seems like a bug, and it should be fixed. I'll leave the exploit determination to CCP. I would ask that you reconsider this. The point of having these restrictions is to encourage combat with a variety of ships. Having gangs camp accelleration gates ruins this. Also it doesn't work entirely like a normal system gate. If you get scrammed before you hit the jump button you are scrammed. So if you for example burn toward an enemy at the accell gate and get scrammed you can not then just decide to jump. The "bug" if it is a bug, works especially well when your ship ends up getting caught in the gate itself. This is working as it should work. If people want to fight then get in the right ship for the plex and fight inside the plex. This is a poor argument and stinks of desire for a theme park/arena atmosphere in FW. The restrictions INSIDE the plex should be the limitation of this mechanic and if you cannot safely get your ship through the accel gate, too damn bad. As a defender, you already have the advantage of docking rights and thus being able to ship up/down and reship faster than an attacking fleet which, by virtue of this buggy mechanic, has no alternative than to jump out of system, reship, jump back (while facing the risk of tackle at each jump) and then warp into the plex where the defending force is already setup at range and having loaded grid. If the opposing force alreadt in system, albeit oversized, beats the defending fleet to the accel gate then you SHOULD run the risk of losing several ships to fast tackle while trying to crash the gate.
*yawn*
Sa souvraya niende misain ye. |
Poetic Stanziel
Autocannons Anonymous
Late Night Alliance
1061
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 19:53:00 -
[72] - Quote
Callous Jade wrote:The restrictions INSIDE the plex should be the limitation of this mechanic and if you cannot safely get your ship through the accel gate, too damn bad. I agree with this. Unfortunately, the current acceleration gate mechanics do not support this sort of tactic.
I've outlined a suggestion above that would make this tactic viable.
The STAIN Travel Bookmark Collection - 451 Bookmarks |
Callous Jade
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
23
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 19:55:00 -
[73] - Quote
Vordak Kallager wrote:Callous Jade wrote:Cearain wrote:Two step wrote:My personal opinion is that this seems like a bug, and it should be fixed. I'll leave the exploit determination to CCP. I would ask that you reconsider this. The point of having these restrictions is to encourage combat with a variety of ships. Having gangs camp accelleration gates ruins this. Also it doesn't work entirely like a normal system gate. If you get scrammed before you hit the jump button you are scrammed. So if you for example burn toward an enemy at the accell gate and get scrammed you can not then just decide to jump. The "bug" if it is a bug, works especially well when your ship ends up getting caught in the gate itself. This is working as it should work. If people want to fight then get in the right ship for the plex and fight inside the plex. This is a poor argument and stinks of desire for a theme park/arena atmosphere in FW. The restrictions INSIDE the plex should be the limitation of this mechanic and if you cannot safely get your ship through the accel gate, too damn bad. As a defender, you already have the advantage of docking rights and thus being able to ship up/down and reship faster than an attacking fleet which, by virtue of this buggy mechanic, has no alternative than to jump out of system, reship, jump back (while facing the risk of tackle at each jump) and then warp into the plex where the defending force is already setup at range and having loaded grid. If the opposing force alreadt in system, albeit oversized, beats the defending fleet to the accel gate then you SHOULD run the risk of losing several ships to fast tackle while trying to crash the gate. *yawn*
Right on par with the strength of most of your arguments, V..
|
Vordak Kallager
Autocannons Anonymous
Late Night Alliance
357
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 19:58:00 -
[74] - Quote
Callous Jade wrote:Vordak Kallager wrote:Callous Jade wrote:Cearain wrote:Two step wrote:My personal opinion is that this seems like a bug, and it should be fixed. I'll leave the exploit determination to CCP. I would ask that you reconsider this. The point of having these restrictions is to encourage combat with a variety of ships. Having gangs camp accelleration gates ruins this. Also it doesn't work entirely like a normal system gate. If you get scrammed before you hit the jump button you are scrammed. So if you for example burn toward an enemy at the accell gate and get scrammed you can not then just decide to jump. The "bug" if it is a bug, works especially well when your ship ends up getting caught in the gate itself. This is working as it should work. If people want to fight then get in the right ship for the plex and fight inside the plex. This is a poor argument and stinks of desire for a theme park/arena atmosphere in FW. The restrictions INSIDE the plex should be the limitation of this mechanic and if you cannot safely get your ship through the accel gate, too damn bad. As a defender, you already have the advantage of docking rights and thus being able to ship up/down and reship faster than an attacking fleet which, by virtue of this buggy mechanic, has no alternative than to jump out of system, reship, jump back (while facing the risk of tackle at each jump) and then warp into the plex where the defending force is already setup at range and having loaded grid. If the opposing force alreadt in system, albeit oversized, beats the defending fleet to the accel gate then you SHOULD run the risk of losing several ships to fast tackle while trying to crash the gate. *yawn* Right on par with the strength of most of your arguments, V..
That's nice.
Sa souvraya niende misain ye. |
Xuixien
Rifterlings
Ushra'Khan
83
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 20:26:00 -
[75] - Quote
I have to agree with Vordak. I get like halfway through that crap Callous Jade calls a post and I just can't stop myself from yawning.
Rabble Rabble!! |
Real Poison
Aura of Darkness
Nulli Secunda
108
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 20:27:00 -
[76] - Quote
Callous Jade wrote:... you SHOULD run the risk of losing several ships to fast tackle while trying to crash the gate....
Yeah every Player should have the right to get free kills of other Players.
That's what you're paying CCP for, right?
Also CCP should make your opponents dumb enough so they always fall for your cheap traps.
You're a paying customer! You deserve it!
 |
Bezerk'ah Vulkan
The Ressabiators
12
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 22:20:00 -
[77] - Quote
So...to not exploit...if i warp to a accel gate and a war target is there...i should just stay still for him to tackle me...is that it? what if the war target had fall asleep camping...should i wait untill he wakes up? or should i shoot him a bit in hope that the alarm of low shields wake him up, then let him tackle me? ... i'm confused on how to deal with this without exploiting |
Fiachra Shine
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 23:24:00 -
[78] - Quote
Bezerk'ah Vulkan wrote: ...or should i shoot him a bit in hope that the alarm of low shields wake him up, then let him tackle me? ...
I thought fitting weapons to your highs was an exploit  |
Pinky Feldman
Gank Bangers
Moar Tears
257
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 23:40:00 -
[79] - Quote
Real Poison wrote:Callous Jade wrote:... you SHOULD run the risk of losing several ships to fast tackle while trying to crash the gate.... Yeah every Player should have the right to get free kills of other Players. That's what you're paying CCP for, right? Also CCP should make your opponents dumb enough so they always fall for your cheap traps. You're a paying customer! You deserve it!
It has nothing to do with taking away free kills, its about taking away a get out of jail free card. If a player is too dumb to warp to an acceleration gate without checking d-scan he should die.
The moar you cry the less you pee |
Poetic Stanziel
Autocannons Anonymous
Late Night Alliance
1061
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 00:04:00 -
[80] - Quote
Pinky Feldman wrote:It has nothing to do with taking away free kills, its about taking away a get out of jail free card. Agreed.
I have a possible, simple fix that will make accel gate camping a viable tactic.
The STAIN Travel Bookmark Collection - 451 Bookmarks |
Xuixien
Rifterlings
Ushra'Khan
85
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 00:26:00 -
[81] - Quote
Why are we assuming that people aren't DScanning? I mean, what does that have to do with enforcing shiptypes in minor plexes?
Rabble Rabble!! |
Schalac
Apocalypse Reign
68
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 03:58:00 -
[82] - Quote
I don't understand the problem. People already set up on the other side of stargates in an attempt to point the people that they push through and it is a common practice. Yet for some reason it is different on a FW plex gate? Oh I get it, you can't get your frig/destroyer killer T3s with off grid links into the minor plex to "pwn sum noobz lolz". If you don't like like it then leave FW. We don't want your bitching and complaining about every little thing you don't like asses messing up our little corner of space. |
Suqq Madiq
Amarr Empire
276
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 04:29:00 -
[83] - Quote
Working as intended. |
Har Harrison
Amarrian Retribution
Amarr 7th Fleet
222
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 04:35:00 -
[84] - Quote
People who have either been in an established FW corp or playing for a long time know this trick (same as some of them learned how to bug the timers as well, though that was never as widely known).
People in those corps learned this trick. The general militia may not have.
When Fweddit joined we said there were subtle little things about FW that were different - this is a fantastic example of one and I cannot for a second term it an exploit for the following reasons.
1) Any man and his dog is going to spam the activate button the same way they do to warp their pod when they die or to jump gate or to dock etc...
2) We know that many objects have a larger interaction radius then they do physical one. It is not considered an exploit to stop your ship when you undock (the only action you can do that doesn't break the session invul) and still be within docking range even though you are far enough OUTSIDE the station that other ships can pass between you and the station!!! Some stations (seen a few Caldari for example) have MASSIVE docking range.
If you know you can warp to an object at a range greater than 0 and you are still within the interaction range but won't run the risk of getting caught on the object, why wouldn't you?
Put them together and you have the "exploit".
A true exploit is when the game does something you wouldn't expect - getting LP paid out on loot drops as if it was destroyed, free reactions from decoupled silos or tracking disrupting for infinite tracking/range for example...
Why won't CCP fix the ongoing FW issues? Fix the speed tanking of plexes
CCP Sreegs - I'm just Winston Wolf |
Braitai
Ice Fire Warriors
Late Night Alliance
16
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 05:58:00 -
[85] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Two step wrote:My personal opinion is that this seems like a bug, and it should be fixed. I'll leave the exploit determination to CCP. I would ask that you reconsider this. The point of having these restrictions is to encourage combat with a variety of ships. Having gangs camp accelleration gates ruins this. Also it doesn't work entirely like a normal system gate. If you get scrammed before you hit the jump button you are scrammed. So if you for example burn toward an enemy at the accell gate and get scrammed you can not then just decide to jump. The "bug" if it is a bug, works especially well when your ship ends up getting caught in the gate itself. This is working as it should work. If people want to fight then get in the right ship for the plex and fight inside the plex.
I agree 100%. Just thinking about your past posts I have a tendency to agree with you on a lot of things actually o7 |
Callous Jade
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
25
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 06:14:00 -
[86] - Quote
Schalac wrote:I don't understand the problem.
We know, you made that painfully obvious with your completely off target and idiotic rant.
|
Joanna Ramirez
Intaki Militia
67
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 06:53:00 -
[87] - Quote
Sokor Loro wrote:I'm a new-er FW player in a new-er FW alliance, but I have never heard this even talked about in comms, much less told to do. There was genuine shock and surprise by everyone in Fweddit comms, and as far as I know no one spoke up to tell anyone it was intended. People assumed it was a bug that developed in one of the inferno patches. I've honestly begun to think this is just a misunderstanding.
I am fairly shocked that no-one in Fweddit then seems to have read the one and only FW plexing guide. Underneath is the relevant bit from chapter 6:
When warping to plex, best range to warp to gate is 10km. You will still land close enough to activate the gate but wont risk bumping into gate. You can get tackled on acceleration gate but "spamming" the activate gate button can still fling you past the tacklers and it seems to depend on your ship size how big "tackle window" the enemy has (quite short).
Note, when I wrote that the "tackle window" was still marginally longer than it seems to be now. Hence I updated the text just now based on personal experiences. Perhaps it is a side effect of various plex patches which have happened after Inferno was put out. |
Pinky Feldman
Gank Bangers
Moar Tears
257
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 08:54:00 -
[88] - Quote
To people comparing this to docking or jumping through a gate, those aren't even remotely the same thing in terms of game mechanics. Points don't stop people from jumping or docking and never have, however, they have always prevented someone from going into warp and I see no reason why they should act differently in this case. Also, how long you've been on a gate or in a station doesn't affect your ability to redock or jump, however, with the unscramable acceleration gate bug it only works on the initial warpin with a very small window and how long you wait to hit the gate results in two very different results.
tl:dr Points should stop someone from going into warp. End of story.
The moar you cry the less you pee |
Silence iKillYouu
KA POW POW Inc
Late Night Alliance
185
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 09:08:00 -
[89] - Quote
Pinky Feldman wrote:To people comparing this to docking or jumping through a gate, those aren't even remotely the same thing in terms of game mechanics. Points don't stop people from jumping or docking and never have, however, they have always prevented someone from going into warp and I see no reason why they should act differently in this case. Also, how long you've been on a gate or in a station doesn't affect your ability to redock or jump, however, with the unscramable acceleration gate bug it only works on the initial warpin with a very small window and how long you wait to hit the gate results in two very different results.
tl:dr Points should stop someone from going into warp. End of story.
shhh
http://fw-frontline.blogspot.com/ |
Kuehnelt
Devoid Privateering
158
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 09:09:00 -
[90] - Quote
So if Fweddit are done having their noses rubbed in learn2play, here's a story about how I came to understand two acceleration gate mechanics at the same time:
One day, I thought it'd be a cool idea to have bookmarks by plexes, so that I could bounce from inside the plex and land on the acceleration gate quicker. And bookmarks near plexes can also be used to scout them out. So I did this in a system, warping to each plex and creating bookmarks as close as I could, and then left to look at the rest of constellation. When I came back: three war targets! Alright, where are they? I warped to the bookmark by the medium at zero... and landed at the acceleration gate at zero. At which were two interceptors and a Falcon that decloaked as I warped in. I was in a brick Arbitrator.
I did the natural thing and spammed jump on the gate, the interceptors failed to tackle me, and since Falcons can't get into mediums, nobody followed me in.
So there, just by playing the game and paying attention, I learned two-- er, three things:
1. If you spam jump on an acceleration gate you can get through a camp (didn't know about 10km yet - it was luck that I landed right, this time);
2. bookmarks on grid with acceleration gates are EVIL and take you straight to the gate, just as warping to a fleetmember will; and
3. If a gang has a Falcon in it, expect the non-Falcons to be reluctant to engage without it. |
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