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Braitai
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
13
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Posted - 2012.08.02 05:55:00 -
[1] - Quote
I'm not sure if this is the right place to post about this, but..
http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/xjssf/hans_jagerblitzen_a_member_of_the_csm_exploited/
So, is activating an acceleration gate on arrival to avoid being tackled an exploit?
Spamming the acceleration gate as you land has been a "tactic" used in FW since before Hans started playing eve, the political issue here is an irrelevant distraction. This is the first time in nearly four years of FW that I've heard this described as an "exploit". |
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
177
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 05:57:00 -
[2] - Quote
Lol at the post talking about getting Hans removed from the CSM over this. What is he meant to do? Not warp when landing on a gate?
I did accuse a nulli guy of stabbing the other night when he did this... now that I know this... |
Cookies'n'Cream
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.08.02 06:05:00 -
[3] - Quote
Don't ALL acceleration gates work like this? ....and have since, like, forever? Is DurrDurrDurr just learning to play the game or wut? |
Poetic Stanziel
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
1051
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 06:09:00 -
[4] - Quote
Cookies'n'Cream wrote:Don't ALL acceleration gates work like this? ....and have since, like, forever? Is DurrDurrDurr just learning to play the game or wut? He's playing a meta-game with Minmatar.
He seems to think we'll lose massive morale over this, giving up Huola because we're too depressed to defend. The STAIN Travel Bookmark Collection - 451 Bookmarks |
Gritz1
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
94
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Posted - 2012.08.02 06:10:00 -
[5] - Quote
Spot on braitai. |
Poetic Stanziel
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
1051
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Posted - 2012.08.02 06:11:00 -
[6] - Quote
Cookies'n'Cream wrote:Don't ALL acceleration gates work like this? ....and have since, like, forever? Is DurrDurrDurr just learning to play the game or wut? Acceleration gates work similar to system gates. It's not a normal warp ... acceleration gates actually cause a session change. If you spam an acceleration gate, you'll get the Session Change in Progress message.
The STAIN Travel Bookmark Collection - 451 Bookmarks |
Silence iKillYouu
KA POW POW Inc Late Night Alliance
183
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Posted - 2012.08.02 06:54:00 -
[7] - Quote
Durr durr and his band of lemmings are dumb as they come. http://fw-frontline.blogspot.com/ |
Pinky Feldman
Gank Bangers Moar Tears
256
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 08:40:00 -
[8] - Quote
Silence iKillYouu wrote:Durr durr and his band of lemmings are dumb as they come.
Also this plexing systems past vulnerable will be patched out soon enough.
Ironic, that someone in KPP would call someone else dumb. Pot meet kettle?
Also, must be nice being able to get game mechanics changed since the CSM is on your side.
Minmatar dislike a game mechanic = Hans has fixed immediately Amarr dislike a game mechanic = Must be complaining
The moar you cry the less you pee |
Poetic Stanziel
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
1051
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 08:48:00 -
[9] - Quote
Pinky Feldman wrote:Minmatar dislike a game mechanic = Hans has fixed immediately Amarr dislike a game mechanic = Must be complaining Propaganda much?
Exactly what's been fixed with FW besides the Goon exploits? That wasn't at Hans' request. That's just straight up common sense.
Acceleration gates are an external warp mechanism. It warps the ship, the ship doesn't use it's own warp drive.
And Hans has stated ... if you all want this mechanic to change, email him and he'll escalate the issue with CCP.
But it's been like this for a very long time, and only now are the Amarr making it out to be something new and damaging to the game. As though Amarr have never used it themselves. Stop with the hypocrisy, please.
If you all need a team building exercise, creating false rage over an old mechanic is not the best way to do that. Give each other hugs, instead.
Based on what some people have been saying, acceleration gates have behaved like this for years.
The STAIN Travel Bookmark Collection - 451 Bookmarks |
March rabbit
R.I.P. Legion Red Alliance
235
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 09:06:00 -
[10] - Quote
i don't care about FW, minmatar and amarr.... However thing existed in game for years can't be simple named "exploit" and become a bannable offense. This is just stupid.
btw: camping gates is stupid too |
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Pinky Feldman
Gank Bangers Moar Tears
256
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Posted - 2012.08.02 09:19:00 -
[11] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:Pinky Feldman wrote:Minmatar dislike a game mechanic = Hans has fixed immediately Amarr dislike a game mechanic = Must be complaining Propaganda much? Exactly what's been fixed with FW besides the Goon exploits? That wasn't at Hans' request. That's just straight up common sense. Acceleration gates are an external warp mechanism. It warps the ship, the ship doesn't use it's own warp drive. And Hans has stated ... if you all want this mechanic to change, email him and he'll escalate the issue with CCP. But it's been like this for a very long time, and only now are the Amarr making it out to be something new and damaging to the game. As though Amarr have never used it themselves. Stop with the hypocrisy, please. If you all need a team building exercise, creating false rage over an old mechanic is not the best way to do that. Give each other hugs, instead. Based on what some people have been saying, acceleration gates have behaved like this for years. Oh please, you guys have some of the worst propaganda on the planet. First we get criticized for having a poor strategy when we actively contest and then when we stop actively contesting Susan declares victory and Vordak calls leaving systems vulnerable us "abusing" the system. We actually like you in the Amarr militia Poe, even though you die to us in puzzling ways with puzzling fits, your blog posts actually get linked around in our fleets with people quoting parts and saying "at least Poetic understands whats really going on with our side" which is impressive that you're able to see much more big picture than most people seem to be able to.
If you want an exercise in hypocrisy, let me tell you about how Hans told me he can't control Susan or his own militia in response to Susan'stroll post and in the same breath told me I should do my best to control my militia and keep their rhetoric focused and constructive, if I care about the future of FW.
The moar you cry the less you pee |
Bad Messenger
Nasranite Watch Caldari State Capturing
183
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 11:34:00 -
[12] - Quote
you are not getting anyone banned from action like that.
Warping fleet to gate and spamm acceleration gate activation is valid tactic even without bug so you can not say if they are intentionally exploiting possible bug or is it just coincidence. This tactic has been used many years, it has been use before Hans even started playing. |
Dan Carter Murray
25
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 11:36:00 -
[13] - Quote
Braitai wrote:I'm not sure if this is the right place to post about this, but.. http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/xjssf/hans_jagerblitzen_a_member_of_the_csm_exploited/So, is activating an acceleration gate on arrival to avoid being tackled an exploit? Spamming the acceleration gate as you land has been a "tactic" used in FW since before Hans started playing eve, the political issue here is an irrelevant distraction. This is the first time in nearly four years of FW that I've heard this described as an "exploit".
I'm pretty sure that spamming jump after landing on a stargate is also an exploit .
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Two step
Aperture Harmonics K162
2110
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 11:56:00 -
[14] - Quote
My personal opinion is that this seems like a bug, and it should be fixed. I'll leave the exploit determination to CCP. CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
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Bad Messenger
Nasranite Watch Caldari State Capturing
183
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 11:59:00 -
[15] - Quote
Two step wrote:My personal opinion is that this seems like a bug, and it should be fixed. I'll leave the exploit determination to CCP.
this bug has been fixed several times already but it keeps coming back. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
349
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 12:04:00 -
[16] - Quote
Fail propoganda is fail. 0/10.
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Xuixien
Rifterlings Ushra'Khan
79
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 12:17:00 -
[17] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:He's playing a meta-game with Minmatar.
He seems to think we'll lose massive morale over this, giving up Huola because we're too depressed to defend.
He realizes it's not real SOV, right?
Rabble Rabble!! |
Sokor Loro
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
55
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 12:25:00 -
[18] - Quote
Xuixien wrote:Poetic Stanziel wrote:He's playing a meta-game with Minmatar.
He seems to think we'll lose massive morale over this, giving up Huola because we're too depressed to defend. He realizes it's not real SOV, right?
As opposed to....?
Also, I clearly remember being pointed while at 0 on an acceleration gate and not being able to jump. Last night our light stuff had points on targets...and THEN they warped away from us.
It's a bug that needs to be fixed, add it to the list. In itself it's not really an exploit. Doing it over and over, knowing exactly what's going to happen as opposed to what should be happening...thats the sketchy part. I don't think anyone should be banned over it, and I don't think Hans should be removed or anything extreme like that, but it's a CSM member's job to be an example for the community. Failing to point out, "hey, this isn't supposed to work, we probably shouldn't keep doing it" is what is messed up here. |
Xuixien
Rifterlings Ushra'Khan
79
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 12:31:00 -
[19] - Quote
Guys, things are warping while pointed? What the (ellipses) (question mark) Rabble Rabble!! |
Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
153
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 12:58:00 -
[20] - Quote
Several things fail here:
1. Coming to the forums to 'discuss possible exploits' 2. Idiotic accusations against a CSM just because you dont like them and he probably got away from someone once with a mechanic that has existed since FW began (or longer) 3. Yet more Damar (Oh wait not Damar because that polished turd can't post anymore...) bile 4. The waste of words in replies (including this one.) |
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Xuixien
Rifterlings Ushra'Khan
79
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 13:13:00 -
[21] - Quote
(ellipses) (question mark) Rabble Rabble!! |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2722
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 13:59:00 -
[22] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote: Acceleration gates are an external warp mechanism. It warps the ship, the ship doesn't use it's own warp drive.
Its a nice rationalization but sadly doesn't explain why the gates can't accelerate a ship that happens to be already warp scrambled before the button is clicked
On the general issue though - its a very very stupid piece of meta-propaganda from the people raising this hue and cry because frankly its something that all sides do and have always done since the acceleration gates were introduced. I'm apparently too stupid to do it myself mind since I've been killed and podded several times on acceleration gates myself
Still its an issue with session changes, quick warping ships etc. I'd like to see with my own eyes whether its possible for a battlecruiser to manage it going into a major with quick tackle waiting to prevent before getting too crazy about it.
On the whole I don't think it damages the game in any serious way for an outnumbered guerilla fleet of dessies to sneak past a larger group of gate campers to get into a complex where they have to stand and fight anyway if they want to achieve their objective of taking the plex. I mean bloody hell, there's worse rubbish than this in eve to worry about!
I would guess this will all come down to how the foundation mechanics with session changes and grid loading work and you might find its too much development effort to "fix" when CCP need to be spending their time on far more serious issues.
Ultimately ask the question - will it improve the game of Faction Warfare if it becomes possible for a larger force to camp minor acceleration gates with 2000 scan resolution tackle frigates for flawless capture of incoming light ships?
Or would we prefer CCP to spend some time and effort sorting out other aspects of the Faction warfare plexing system.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedomInferno Wardecs - Shoot Goons for FREE $300,000 dollars :(-á |
Xuixien
Rifterlings Ushra'Khan
79
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 14:04:00 -
[23] - Quote
My question is who doesn't spam "warp" or "jump"?
Are you trying to tell me that Mr. Durrr is an honourable spacediety and he only ever ever presses the button once? Rabble Rabble!! |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2722
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 14:34:00 -
[24] - Quote
Xuixien wrote:My question is who doesn't spam "warp" or "jump"?
Are you trying to tell me that Mr. Durrr is an honourable spacediety and he only ever ever presses the button once?
I'm guessing his argument is because he's not a space-politician he doesn't have to hold himself to the finest traditions of the service that hans does. Back in the day the Caldari claimed that I'd dishonoured the role of CSM chair by hotdropping them with a titan bridge you know Politics is serious business.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedomInferno Wardecs - Shoot Goons for FREE $300,000 dollars :(-á |
Yuri Intaki
Nasranite Watch Caldari State Capturing
33
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 14:41:00 -
[25] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Back in the day the Caldari claimed that I'd dishonoured the role of CSM chair by hotdropping them with a titan bridge you know Politics is serious business.
And yet you were unwilling to pay three measly carriers to Damar Rocarion for the well being of all the people in Metropolis. You seemed awfully butthurt back then about us ruining your precious lolplaying enviroment by demonstranting what your good friend Ankh did. And CCP still has not fixed the thing.
History repeating itself much now?
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Xuixien
Rifterlings Ushra'Khan
80
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 14:45:00 -
[26] - Quote
Yeah! You should have given Damar Rocarian Yuri Intaki three carriers, Jade! Rabble Rabble!! |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2722
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 14:51:00 -
[27] - Quote
Yuri Intaki wrote: And yet you were unwilling to pay three measly carriers to Damar Rocarion for the well being of all the people in Metropolis. You seemed awfully butthurt back then about us ruining your precious lolplaying enviroment by demonstranting what your good friend Ankh did. And CCP still has not fixed the thing.
Well the mechanic is still pretty stupid Damar. (He's basically referencing the fact that if one has high standings with the Minmatar you can can basically afk plex against minmatar complexes f.ex) You lose standings for shooting the minmatar (or whatever faction npcs) but you lose nothing for completing offensive plexes that actually help take the systems away! Back in the day Damar asked me to pay him 3 carriers or he would use this technique to take away the whole of the warzone from the Minmatar lol!
As for Ankh, well I liked her (she threw a spoon at a fellow CSM during a meeting) - but the way she played FW was pretty twisted.
Yuri Intaki wrote:History repeating itself much now? Perhaps you should circulate an internal memo again. The last one in "K" is pretty hilarious and woefully inaccurate but perhaps this time you get nationalities right.
I thought it was pretty good actually The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedomInferno Wardecs - Shoot Goons for FREE $300,000 dollars :(-á |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2722
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 14:52:00 -
[28] - Quote
Xuixien wrote:Yeah! You should have given Damar Rocarian Yuri Intaki three carriers, Jade!
I know right.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedomInferno Wardecs - Shoot Goons for FREE $300,000 dollars :(-á |
Princess Nexxala
Quantum Cats Syndicate
88
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 14:53:00 -
[29] - Quote
omfg what is he supposed to do? Not spam it so you can tackle him? LOL So bad. L2P and all that good stuff.
Braitai wrote:I'm not sure if this is the right place to post about this, but.. http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/xjssf/hans_jagerblitzen_a_member_of_the_csm_exploited/So, is activating an acceleration gate on arrival to avoid being tackled an exploit? Spamming the acceleration gate as you land has been a "tactic" used in FW since before Hans started playing eve, the political issue here is an irrelevant distraction. This is the first time in nearly four years of FW that I've heard this described as an "exploit".
Is sexy time? |
Xuixien
Rifterlings Ushra'Khan
80
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 14:54:00 -
[30] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Back in the day Damar asked me to pay him 3 carriers or he would use this technique to take away the whole of the warzone from the Minmatar lol!
lol.
I'm glad I discovered Damar. He brightens my EVE experience.
Rabble Rabble!! |
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Vordak Kallager
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
351
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 15:16:00 -
[31] - Quote
What would the point be of even having ship-restricted combat PLEXes (always a defining feature of Faction Warfare) if the acceleration gates didn't work like this? It would more or less eliminate their usefulness as a tool to manage bigger numbers and bigger hulls. Sa souvraya niende misain ye. |
Xuixien
Rifterlings Ushra'Khan
80
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 15:23:00 -
[32] - Quote
Vordak Kallager wrote:What would the point be of even having ship-restricted combat PLEXes (always a defining feature of Faction Warfare) if the acceleration gates didn't work like this? It would more or less eliminate their usefulness as a tool to manage bigger numbers and bigger hulls.
B-b-b-b-but my ganks!!!!! Rabble Rabble!! |
Vordak Kallager
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
352
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 15:25:00 -
[33] - Quote
Xuixien wrote:Vordak Kallager wrote:What would the point be of even having ship-restricted combat PLEXes (always a defining feature of Faction Warfare) if the acceleration gates didn't work like this? It would more or less eliminate their usefulness as a tool to manage bigger numbers and bigger hulls. B-b-b-b-but my ganks!!!!!
None of the Amarr old-guard (who value combat plexes as the tool they are designed to be) are complaining about this supposed "exploit". It's only Fweddit who are sad they couldn't gank our cruiser/thrasher fleets at 3:1 odds. vOv Sa souvraya niende misain ye. |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2724
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 15:28:00 -
[34] - Quote
Vordak Kallager wrote:What would the point be of even having ship-restricted combat PLEXes (always a defining feature of Faction Warfare) if the acceleration gates didn't work like this? It would more or less eliminate their usefulness as a tool to manage bigger numbers and bigger hulls.
This is a good and important point.
I'm coming round to the opinion that whether this stuff is a bug or not then it SHOULD work this way because its better for the Faction Warfare GAME to allow people to get their ships into complexes and fight there (by the ship weight restrictions) than it is to allow a one-size fits all fleet to effectively gate camp the in-complexes and get results with an omni fleet.
So perhaps the solution here is for CCP to just say "working as intended" or to make a change that allows any ship whether warp scrambled or not to activate the Acceleration gate and warp into the complex (just as a ship can activate a stargate or transition to wormhole.).
That way the whole issue becomes a non argument and people will need to play Faction Warfare by putting the appropriate ship classes into the appropriate complexes (even if this means splitting a fleet up) and fighting multiple smaller battles.
(which was I think the point of the original design.)
All in all this thread does make Fweddit look exceedingly petty. The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedomInferno Wardecs - Shoot Goons for FREE $300,000 dollars :(-á |
Rezig Huruta
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
42
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 15:38:00 -
[35] - Quote
Why didn't some of your guys just reship down and come get us? You could have camped the star gates with big ships to allow your smaller ships to get through into system, then drop onto the accel gate with your BCs and cruisers, etc to escort the smaller ships that then go into the plex.
You had 60 players active in Huola. Surely you could have managed to break 15-20 off into dessies and come get us. I do not understand why you decided to complain about an old mechanic instead.
TL;DR version: Get dessies. Escort dessies to accel gate (if you need to camp something) Jump dessies in and bounce us out |
Zen Guerrilla
CTRL-Q Iron Oxide.
14
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 15:41:00 -
[36] - Quote
Pinky Feldman wrote:Minmatar dislike a game mechanic = Hans has fixed immediately Amarr dislike a game mechanic = Must be complaining
Feels so good. pew pew |
Xuixien
Rifterlings Ushra'Khan
80
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 16:01:00 -
[37] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Vordak Kallager wrote:What would the point be of even having ship-restricted combat PLEXes (always a defining feature of Faction Warfare) if the acceleration gates didn't work like this? It would more or less eliminate their usefulness as a tool to manage bigger numbers and bigger hulls. This is a good and important point. I'm coming round to the opinion that whether this stuff is a bug or not then it SHOULD work this way because its better for the Faction Warfare GAME to allow people to get their ships into complexes and fight there (by the ship weight restrictions) than it is to allow a one-size fits all fleet to effectively gate camp the in-complexes and get results with an omni fleet. So perhaps the solution here is for CCP to just say "working as intended" or to make a change that allows any ship whether warp scrambled or not to activate the Acceleration gate and warp into the complex (just as a ship can activate a stargate or transition to wormhole.). That way the whole issue becomes a non argument and people will need to play Faction Warfare by putting the appropriate ship classes into the appropriate complexes (even if this means splitting a fleet up) and fighting multiple smaller battles. (which was I think the point of the original design.) All in all this thread does make Fweddit look exceedingly petty.
Very petty.
Rabble Rabble!! |
Wenron
Rifterlings Ushra'Khan
39
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 16:06:00 -
[38] - Quote
This one time, I missed a point on a ship I could totally kill.
It made me sad. |
Schalac
Apocalypse Reign
66
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 16:38:00 -
[39] - Quote
I feel this should be a "working as intended" mechanic. A-gates, S-gates and WH should all cancel out warp scrams. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
349
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 16:38:00 -
[40] - Quote
Pinky Feldman wrote:If you want an exercise in hypocrisy, let me tell you about how Hans told me he can't control Susan or his own militia in response to Susan's troll post and in the same breath told me I should do my best to control my militia and keep their rhetoric focused and constructive, if I care about the future of FW. That's not a troll post. THIS is a troll post. |
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Krystalline Meth
Konflict Blockade Logistics
7
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 16:41:00 -
[41] - Quote
Two step wrote:My personal opinion is that this seems like a bug, and it should be fixed. I'll leave the exploit determination to CCP.
Like when your corp exploited wormholes for infinite tracking boosts lol CSM talking about exploits! |
Sokor Loro
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
55
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 16:42:00 -
[42] - Quote
Xuixien wrote:My question is who doesn't spam "warp" or "jump"?
Are you trying to tell me that Mr. Durrr is an honourable spacediety and he only ever ever presses the button more than once?
The thing is, this was done multiple times, in-front of our faces. It was completely intentional, they knew exactly what would happen and knew that their fleet could not be caught. Even in this thread, people admit to knowing about it previously. Claiming ignorance is ridiculous.
It is a bug, and that bug was being used to their advantage.
Ultimately, this isn't even about that particular plex, it isn't about how we didn't ship down or you didn't ship up or how we blobbed you. It isn't about taking the system, it isn't about the warzone, kills, or losses. It wasn't the fact that a random minmatar fleet got away from us, and we couldn't do **** about it. It's the fact that it was a CSM member who was doing it. Comparing Durr to Hans is ridiculous in this case. CSM members are held to far higher standards, and are expected to be an example. And Hans decides to be an example by knowingly using a bug to his advantage. End of story. It's at the very worst, an exploit, and at best, a questionable action.
Talks of bans or his removal from the CSM are ridiculous and overblown. But this should be leaving a bad taste in everyone's mouths. Instead you're laughing about it and mocking people who are expressing concern. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
350
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 16:51:00 -
[43] - Quote
Sokor Loro wrote:Ultimately, this isn't even about that particular plex, it isn't about how we didn't ship down or you didn't ship up or how we blobbed you. It isn't about taking the system, it isn't about the warzone, kills, or losses. It wasn't the fact that a random minmatar fleet got away from us, and we couldn't do **** about it. It's the fact that it was a CSM member who was doing it. Comparing Durr to Hans is ridiculous in this case. CSM members are held to far higher standards, and are expected to be an example. And Hans decides to be an example by knowingly using a bug to his advantage. End of story. It's at the very worst, an exploit, and at best, a questionable action.
Talks of bans or his removal from the CSM are ridiculous and overblown. But this should be leaving a bad taste in everyone's mouths. Instead you're laughing about it and mocking people who are expressing concern. And here I thought you were upset because your alliance leader Mittani got booted from the CSM.... Who knew you'd be uspet at a CSM member for using a game mechanic to do something in game. Who knew? |
Schalac
Apocalypse Reign
66
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 16:53:00 -
[44] - Quote
Sokor Loro wrote:Xuixien wrote:My question is who doesn't spam "warp" or "jump"?
Are you trying to tell me that Mr. Durrr is an honourable spacediety and he only ever ever presses the button more than once? The thing is, this was done multiple times, in-front of our faces. It was completely intentional, they knew exactly what would happen and knew that their fleet could not be caught. Even in this thread, people admit to knowing about it previously. Claiming ignorance is ridiculous. It is a bug, and that bug was being used to their advantage. Ultimately, this isn't even about that particular plex, it isn't about how we didn't ship down or you didn't ship up or how we blobbed you. It isn't about taking the system, it isn't about the warzone, kills, or losses. It wasn't the fact that a random minmatar fleet got away from us, and we couldn't do **** about it. It's the fact that it was a CSM member who was doing it. Comparing Durr to Hans is ridiculous in this case. CSM members are held to far higher standards, and are expected to be an example. And Hans decides to be an example by knowingly using a bug to his advantage. End of story. It's at the very worst, an exploit, and at best, a questionable action. Talks of bans or his removal from the CSM are ridiculous and overblown. But this should be leaving a bad taste in everyone's mouths. Instead you're laughing about it and mocking people who are expressing concern. You know what would of stopped them? Entering the plex and setting up your camp at the warp in. |
Xuixien
Rifterlings Ushra'Khan
82
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 16:55:00 -
[45] - Quote
Sokor Loro wrote:Xuixien wrote:My question is who doesn't spam "warp" or "jump"?
Are you trying to tell me that Mr. Durrr is an honourable spacediety and he only ever ever presses the button more than once? The thing is, this was done multiple times, in-front of our faces. It was completely intentional, they knew exactly what would happen and knew that their fleet could not be caught. Even in this thread, people admit to knowing about it previously. Claiming ignorance is ridiculous. It is a bug, and that bug was being used to their advantage. Ultimately, this isn't even about that particular plex, it isn't about how we didn't ship down or you didn't ship up or how we blobbed you. It isn't about taking the system, it isn't about the warzone, kills, or losses. It wasn't the fact that a random minmatar fleet got away from us, and we couldn't do **** about it. It's the fact that it was a CSM member who was doing it. Comparing Durr to Hans is ridiculous in this case. CSM members are held to far higher standards, and are expected to be an example. And Hans decides to be an example by knowingly using a bug to his advantage. End of story. It's at the very worst, an exploit, and at best, a questionable action. Talks of bans or his removal from the CSM are ridiculous and overblown. But this should be leaving a bad taste in everyone's mouths. Instead you're laughing about it and mocking people who are expressing concern.
Nice nice except it's a legal game mechanic (that people have used for years) and will remain so until CCP rules otherwise.
Saying that a CSM shouldn't use game mechanics to his advantage (ie, "edge play") simply because he's a CSM is an untenable argument. If anything, it's the CSM's job to discover these exploits and bring them to the attention of the Devs - often times this requires an abuse of said mechanics. That said, I would hardly consider dodging your failcamp 3 times in a row an "abuse of mechanics". I'm sorry you guys were embarrassed but really, there's no need to call foul and bring his CSM status into it. I know, I know, CFC/HBC are all about "the propaganda war" and "character assassination" and all that metagame stuff, so I don't blame you too much for giving it a try.
At the end of the day, however, I fail to see how this is "game breaking". People will still die outside of plexes and get ganked. If you really want the kills just move the camp into the plex.
Sorry lil bro. :( Rabble Rabble!! |
Zeric Sarain
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
1
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 17:02:00 -
[46] - Quote
Vordak Kallager wrote: None of the Amarr old-guard (who value combat plexes as the tool they are designed to be) are complaining about this supposed "exploit". It's only Fweddit who are sad they couldn't gank our cruiser/thrasher fleets at 3:1 odds. vOv
It's not all of Fweddit, either. Some of us know better. |
Xuixien
Rifterlings Ushra'Khan
83
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 17:09:00 -
[47] - Quote
Zeric Sarain wrote:Vordak Kallager wrote: None of the Amarr old-guard (who value combat plexes as the tool they are designed to be) are complaining about this supposed "exploit". It's only Fweddit who are sad they couldn't gank our cruiser/thrasher fleets at 3:1 odds. vOv
It's not all of Fweddit, either. Some of us know better.
Thank you for that. Rabble Rabble!! |
Sokor Loro
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
55
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 17:10:00 -
[48] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:And here I thought you were upset because your alliance leader Mittani got booted from the CSM.... Who knew you'd be uspet at a CSM member for using a game mechanic to do something in game. Who knew?
Mocking me for someone who isn't/wasn't my alliance leader getting removed from the CSM (an action I actually agreed with). Quite a reputable to my argument! |
Xuixien
Rifterlings Ushra'Khan
83
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 17:12:00 -
[49] - Quote
That's quite a reputable you got there. Rabble Rabble!! |
Sokor Loro
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
55
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 17:15:00 -
[50] - Quote
Xuixien wrote:That's quite a reputable you got there.
Thanks for pointing it out to me! I'm glad you are concerning yourself with spelling instead of content.
edit: lawl I misspelled it again on the second edit :P |
|
Xuixien
Rifterlings Ushra'Khan
83
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 17:19:00 -
[51] - Quote
Sokor Loro wrote:Xuixien wrote:That's quite a reputable you got there. Thanks for pointing it out to me! I'm glad you are concerning yourself with spelling instead of content. edit: lawl I misspelled it again on the second edit :P
I'm just killing time while I wait for you to address the content of my earlier post, mate. Rabble Rabble!! |
Wenron
Rifterlings Ushra'Khan
41
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 17:22:00 -
[52] - Quote
Sokor Loro wrote:Xuixien wrote:My question is who doesn't spam "warp" or "jump"?
Are you trying to tell me that Mr. Durrr is an honourable spacediety and he only ever ever presses the button more than once? The thing is, this was done multiple times, in-front of our faces. It was completely intentional, they knew exactly what would happen and knew that their fleet could not be caught. Even in this thread, people admit to knowing about it previously. Claiming ignorance is ridiculous. It is a bug, and that bug was being used to their advantage. Ultimately, this isn't even about that particular plex, it isn't about how we didn't ship down or you didn't ship up or how we blobbed you. It isn't about taking the system, it isn't about the warzone, kills, or losses. It wasn't the fact that a random minmatar fleet got away from us, and we couldn't do **** about it. It's the fact that it was a CSM member who was doing it. Comparing Durr to Hans is ridiculous in this case. CSM members are held to far higher standards, and are expected to be an example. And Hans decides to be an example by knowingly using a bug to his advantage. End of story. It's at the very worst, an exploit, and at best, a questionable action. Talks of bans or his removal from the CSM are ridiculous and overblown. But this should be leaving a bad taste in everyone's mouths. Instead you're laughing about it and mocking people who are expressing concern.
If it is a bug that affects everyone, is it really a problem at all? Let CCP provide the answer for that one. Until such time, I'm filing this away as something that is handy to know. |
Rezig Huruta
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
44
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 17:38:00 -
[53] - Quote
Sokor Loro wrote:Xuixien wrote:My question is who doesn't spam "warp" or "jump"?
Are you trying to tell me that Mr. Durrr is an honourable spacediety and he only ever ever presses the button more than once? The thing is, this was done multiple times, in-front of our faces. It was completely intentional, they knew exactly what would happen and knew that their fleet could not be caught. Even in this thread, people admit to knowing about it previously. Claiming ignorance is ridiculous. It is a bug, and that bug was being used to their advantage. Ultimately, this isn't even about that particular plex, it isn't about how we didn't ship down or you didn't ship up or how we blobbed you. It isn't about taking the system, it isn't about the warzone, kills, or losses. It wasn't the fact that a random minmatar fleet got away from us, and we couldn't do **** about it. It's the fact that it was a CSM member who was doing it. Comparing Durr to Hans is ridiculous in this case. CSM members are held to far higher standards, and are expected to be an example. And Hans decides to be an example by knowingly using a bug to his advantage. End of story. It's at the very worst, an exploit, and at best, a questionable action. Talks of bans or his removal from the CSM are ridiculous and overblown. But this should be leaving a bad taste in everyone's mouths. Instead you're laughing about it and mocking people who are expressing concern.
I want to make it completely clear what your point is, so does this sum it up:
You believe landing on the acceleration gate and warping is an exploit.
Many people do not agree with you - various reasons were given, some good, some bad. But, I think the most vital of them, is that it helps enforce the ship hull restrictions INSIDE the plex.
Whether that is intended or not is up to CCP to determine. As it stands, you now know without a doubt that you must change tactics to match those of your enemy.
Good luck! :)
|
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
350
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 17:45:00 -
[54] - Quote
Sokor Loro wrote:Mocking me for someone who isn't/wasn't my alliance leader getting removed from the CSM (an action I actually agreed with). Quite a rebuttal(heh, fixed :P) to my argument!
No I was mocking you for someone who really is your alliance leader. Instead of wasting 10 pages about how "Fweddit really isn't a pet of Goonswarm", "we're different, really!" lies and all that stuff, let's just put that issue aside.
However, I was also mocking you for being upset at somebody playing the game legally - as if that was the real reason you are "upset". Feel free to respond this part all you want. |
Vordak Kallager
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
353
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 17:51:00 -
[55] - Quote
Zeric Sarain wrote:Vordak Kallager wrote: None of the Amarr old-guard (who value combat plexes as the tool they are designed to be) are complaining about this supposed "exploit". It's only Fweddit who are sad they couldn't gank our cruiser/thrasher fleets at 3:1 odds. vOv
It's not all of Fweddit, either. Some of us know better.
You are now among one of the Fwedditors that I can admire and respect. Sa souvraya niende misain ye. |
Poetic Stanziel
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
1059
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 17:52:00 -
[56] - Quote
Xuixien wrote:Are you trying to tell me that Mr. Durrr is an honourable spacediety and he only ever ever presses the button more than once? He only counts to two-Mississipi before pressing the activate button. And if he finds out that any of his Fweddit have not done the same, he forces them to mine in highsec for a week.
The STAIN Travel Bookmark Collection - 451 Bookmarks |
Sokor Loro
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
55
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 18:04:00 -
[57] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:No I was mocking you for someone who really is your alliance leader. Instead of wasting 10 pages about how "Fweddit really isn't a pet of Goonswarm", "we're different, really!" lies and all that stuff, let's just put that issue aside.
Oh. You're just trolling.
On topic, I'll admit I didn't know this was a, "been happening for years" thing. I've dabbled with this character and a few others in FW for a few months now, but have only been playing for a year or so. Last night was the first time that it was ridiculously apparent something was wrong. In all the gates I've been on or escalations I've done I haven't seen a specific example of it happening. Although It's likely I've seen it before and just thought I didn't get a point on fast enough.
|
Callous Jade
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
23
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 18:08:00 -
[58] - Quote
Vordak Kallager wrote:What would the point be of even having ship-restricted combat PLEXes (always a defining feature of Faction Warfare) if the acceleration gates didn't work like this? It would more or less eliminate their usefulness as a tool to manage bigger numbers and bigger hulls.
So why not just do away with the acceleration gates all together and make it impossible for an over-sized ship to warp to those plexes? Seriously, I find it hard to believe that you are stupid enough to believe the crap that comes out of your own mouth sometimes, Vordak. |
Poetic Stanziel
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
1060
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 18:23:00 -
[59] - Quote
For crying out loud. This is not a bug. It's simply a side-effect of session change mechanics.
Once a person begins a session change, not even the Flying Spaghetti Monster can break that person out of it. The person who initiated the session change cannot break out of it. Nothing external can break that person out of it.
This is how jumpgates, wormholes and acceleration gates work.
It's not like CCP hasn't known about this for years. It's their mechanic. If they haven't deemed it fix it, then it's not a bug and it certainly isn't an exploit.
If DurrDurrDurr didn't know about this mechanic (which I still doubt), it doesn't suddenly make it a bug. Is everything he doesn't know about this game a bug or an exploit?
Every person in FW knows about this mechanic. FCs call out to spam the activate button on any warp-in to an accel gate when it is known that enemies are camping it. I do not believe for a second that this only happens on the Minmatar side. It happens the same with every faction. If enemies are camping an accel gate, FCs in every faction are going to call out over comms to spam the activate button. This pushes everyone into a session change before the enemy can react.
I doubt CCP will do anything about this at all. Session change mechanics are a deep piece of code, and to make changes here would likely require a tremendous amount of work (they can weigh in on this themselves, but I cannot imagine it is not true, or else they would have changed this years ago.)
As for Hans. He doesn't FC. He is a player like any other player. He uses the same mechanics as the rest of us. The manner in which jumpgates, wormholes and acceleration gates work is just another mechanic that players can use and should use.
This whole kerfuffle is an exceptionally disingenuous piece of grandstanding and propaganda by DurrDurrDurr. I realize he loves his meta-game and believes himself to be a master of it ... but this stink he's trying to raise over a non-issue ... it is really beneath him. The STAIN Travel Bookmark Collection - 451 Bookmarks |
Poetic Stanziel
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
1060
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 18:24:00 -
[60] - Quote
Oops. The STAIN Travel Bookmark Collection - 451 Bookmarks |
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Sokor Loro
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
55
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 18:28:00 -
[61] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:For crying out loud. This is not a bug. Every person in FW knows about this mechanic. FCs call out to spam the activate button on any warp-in to an accel gate when it is known that enemies are camping it. I do not believe for a second that this only happens on the Minmatar side. It happens the same with every faction. If enemies are camping an accel gate, FCs in every faction are going to call out over comms to spam the activate button. This pushes everyone into a session change before the enemy can react.
I'm a new-er FW player in a new-er FW alliance, but I have never heard this even talked about in comms, much less told to do. There was genuine shock and surprise by everyone in Fweddit comms, and as far as I know no one spoke up to tell anyone it was intended. People assumed it was a bug that developed in one of the inferno patches. I've honestly begun to think this is just a misunderstanding. |
Rezig Huruta
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
44
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 18:30:00 -
[62] - Quote
Callous Jade wrote:Vordak Kallager wrote:What would the point be of even having ship-restricted combat PLEXes (always a defining feature of Faction Warfare) if the acceleration gates didn't work like this? It would more or less eliminate their usefulness as a tool to manage bigger numbers and bigger hulls. So why not just do away with the acceleration gates all together and make it impossible for an over-sized ship to warp to those plexes? Seriously, I find it hard to believe that you are stupid enough to believe the crap that comes out of your own mouth sometimes, Vordak.
Because Vordak didn't design the system, he's stating that the acceleration gate serves the purpose of ship restriction, which is important to maintain.
Doing away with the acceleration gate would be awesome, but I imagine it would require huge change in the code. Remember, plexes are spawned as discrete entities when scanned. They are 'instances' and are based on rules different than a moon (for example) or a grav site (both which have no restrictions to ship class).
The acceleration gate code is based off the ones used in missions to restrict ship class. CCP already HAS a module (in the code that makes up Eve) that restricts ships. Why would they create a NEW METHOD to solve a problem they already have a solution to?
Just because you can say it, doesn't mean that it can be done within the confines of programming. |
Poetic Stanziel
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
1060
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 18:56:00 -
[63] - Quote
If everyone wants acceleration gate camping to be a viable tactic (and I wouldn't disagree with the desire for this), then simply have the warp-in point on acceleration gates be X km from the 0 km border. Basically, everyone has to travel at least (X - 2.5) km before they can activate the gate.
That seems like a simple and doable solution for CCP.
(You have to be within 2.5km of an accel gate to activate it correct? If not, adjust the equation above with the correct value.) The STAIN Travel Bookmark Collection - 451 Bookmarks |
Thomas Kreshant
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
141
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 19:04:00 -
[64] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
(You have to be within 2.5km of an accel gate to activate it correct? If not, adjust the equation above with the correct value.)
Warping to 10 and you still count as if you warped to 0 and lets you activate the gate which is very odd imho |
Gritz1
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
94
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 19:07:00 -
[65] - Quote
Im pretty sure we didnt make a post when the amarr were doing this constantly, including fweddit, in front of our faces. |
Vordak Kallager
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
354
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 19:07:00 -
[66] - Quote
Callous Jade wrote:Vordak Kallager wrote:What would the point be of even having ship-restricted combat PLEXes (always a defining feature of Faction Warfare) if the acceleration gates didn't work like this? It would more or less eliminate their usefulness as a tool to manage bigger numbers and bigger hulls. So why not just do away with the acceleration gates all together and make it impossible for an over-sized ship to warp to those plexes? Seriously, I find it hard to believe that you are stupid enough to believe the crap that comes out of your own mouth sometimes, Vordak.
Yeah, that would be fine too. Not sure why you think what I said is stupid, but whatever man.
EDIT - Rezig pointed out a few posts above this that changing this mechanic to simply bypass the whole acceleration gate be a) fixing something that isn't broke (waste of Dev time) and b) changing something that is probably buried in years of code and would be hard to do from a programming perspective. Good point, Rez. Sa souvraya niende misain ye. |
Vordak Kallager
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
354
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 19:12:00 -
[67] - Quote
Thomas Kreshant wrote:Poetic Stanziel wrote:
(You have to be within 2.5km of an accel gate to activate it correct? If not, adjust the equation above with the correct value.)
Warping to 10 and you still count as if you warped to 0 and lets you activate the gate which is very odd imho
I agree this is odd. Warping to 0 puts you right on top of the structure itself which can then get in the way of your alignment and prevent you from warping. Warping to 10 puts you within it's activation radius but far enough away that you dont get yourself caught on the physical structure of the acceleration gate itself.
As for Fweddit (in general) not knowing about this mechanic... you are new to Faction Warfare and you learn something new every day. The more you know, or what ever. Sa souvraya niende misain ye. |
Poetic Stanziel
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
1061
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 19:14:00 -
[68] - Quote
Thomas Kreshant wrote:Poetic Stanziel wrote:
(You have to be within 2.5km of an accel gate to activate it correct? If not, adjust the equation above with the correct value.)
Warping to 10 and you still count as if you warped to 0 and lets you activate the gate which is very odd imho I stated the 0 km border or a reason.
CCP has simply wrapped the acceleration gate in a very large ellipsoid. Anything within that ellipsoid is 0 km.
My suggestion is to set the warp-in point X km outside the border of that ellipsoid. The STAIN Travel Bookmark Collection - 451 Bookmarks |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
515
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 19:22:00 -
[69] - Quote
Two step wrote:My personal opinion is that this seems like a bug, and it should be fixed. I'll leave the exploit determination to CCP.
I would ask that you reconsider this. The point of having these restrictions is to encourage combat with a variety of ships. Having gangs camp accelleration gates ruins this.
Also it doesn't work entirely like a normal system gate. If you get scrammed before you hit the jump button you are scrammed. So if you for example burn toward an enemy at the accell gate and get scrammed you can not then just decide to jump.
The "bug" if it is a bug, works especially well when your ship ends up getting caught in the gate itself.
This is working as it should work. If people want to fight then get in the right ship for the plex and fight inside the plex. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Callous Jade
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
23
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 19:46:00 -
[70] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Two step wrote:My personal opinion is that this seems like a bug, and it should be fixed. I'll leave the exploit determination to CCP. I would ask that you reconsider this. The point of having these restrictions is to encourage combat with a variety of ships. Having gangs camp accelleration gates ruins this. Also it doesn't work entirely like a normal system gate. If you get scrammed before you hit the jump button you are scrammed. So if you for example burn toward an enemy at the accell gate and get scrammed you can not then just decide to jump. The "bug" if it is a bug, works especially well when your ship ends up getting caught in the gate itself. This is working as it should work. If people want to fight then get in the right ship for the plex and fight inside the plex.
This is a poor argument and stinks of desire for a theme park/arena atmosphere in FW. The restrictions INSIDE the plex should be the limitation of this mechanic and if you cannot safely get your ship through the accel gate, too damn bad. As a defender, you already have the advantage of docking rights and thus being able to ship up/down and reship faster than an attacking fleet which, by virtue of this buggy mechanic, has no alternative than to jump out of system, reship, jump back (while facing the risk of tackle at each jump) and then warp into the plex where the defending force is already setup at range and having loaded grid. If the opposing force alreadt in system, albeit oversized, beats the defending fleet to the accel gate then you SHOULD run the risk of losing several ships to fast tackle while trying to crash the gate. |
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Vordak Kallager
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
357
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 19:50:00 -
[71] - Quote
Callous Jade wrote:Cearain wrote:Two step wrote:My personal opinion is that this seems like a bug, and it should be fixed. I'll leave the exploit determination to CCP. I would ask that you reconsider this. The point of having these restrictions is to encourage combat with a variety of ships. Having gangs camp accelleration gates ruins this. Also it doesn't work entirely like a normal system gate. If you get scrammed before you hit the jump button you are scrammed. So if you for example burn toward an enemy at the accell gate and get scrammed you can not then just decide to jump. The "bug" if it is a bug, works especially well when your ship ends up getting caught in the gate itself. This is working as it should work. If people want to fight then get in the right ship for the plex and fight inside the plex. This is a poor argument and stinks of desire for a theme park/arena atmosphere in FW. The restrictions INSIDE the plex should be the limitation of this mechanic and if you cannot safely get your ship through the accel gate, too damn bad. As a defender, you already have the advantage of docking rights and thus being able to ship up/down and reship faster than an attacking fleet which, by virtue of this buggy mechanic, has no alternative than to jump out of system, reship, jump back (while facing the risk of tackle at each jump) and then warp into the plex where the defending force is already setup at range and having loaded grid. If the opposing force alreadt in system, albeit oversized, beats the defending fleet to the accel gate then you SHOULD run the risk of losing several ships to fast tackle while trying to crash the gate.
*yawn* Sa souvraya niende misain ye. |
Poetic Stanziel
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
1061
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 19:53:00 -
[72] - Quote
Callous Jade wrote:The restrictions INSIDE the plex should be the limitation of this mechanic and if you cannot safely get your ship through the accel gate, too damn bad. I agree with this. Unfortunately, the current acceleration gate mechanics do not support this sort of tactic.
I've outlined a suggestion above that would make this tactic viable.
The STAIN Travel Bookmark Collection - 451 Bookmarks |
Callous Jade
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
23
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 19:55:00 -
[73] - Quote
Vordak Kallager wrote:Callous Jade wrote:Cearain wrote:Two step wrote:My personal opinion is that this seems like a bug, and it should be fixed. I'll leave the exploit determination to CCP. I would ask that you reconsider this. The point of having these restrictions is to encourage combat with a variety of ships. Having gangs camp accelleration gates ruins this. Also it doesn't work entirely like a normal system gate. If you get scrammed before you hit the jump button you are scrammed. So if you for example burn toward an enemy at the accell gate and get scrammed you can not then just decide to jump. The "bug" if it is a bug, works especially well when your ship ends up getting caught in the gate itself. This is working as it should work. If people want to fight then get in the right ship for the plex and fight inside the plex. This is a poor argument and stinks of desire for a theme park/arena atmosphere in FW. The restrictions INSIDE the plex should be the limitation of this mechanic and if you cannot safely get your ship through the accel gate, too damn bad. As a defender, you already have the advantage of docking rights and thus being able to ship up/down and reship faster than an attacking fleet which, by virtue of this buggy mechanic, has no alternative than to jump out of system, reship, jump back (while facing the risk of tackle at each jump) and then warp into the plex where the defending force is already setup at range and having loaded grid. If the opposing force alreadt in system, albeit oversized, beats the defending fleet to the accel gate then you SHOULD run the risk of losing several ships to fast tackle while trying to crash the gate. *yawn*
Right on par with the strength of most of your arguments, V..
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Vordak Kallager
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
357
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 19:58:00 -
[74] - Quote
Callous Jade wrote:Vordak Kallager wrote:Callous Jade wrote:Cearain wrote:Two step wrote:My personal opinion is that this seems like a bug, and it should be fixed. I'll leave the exploit determination to CCP. I would ask that you reconsider this. The point of having these restrictions is to encourage combat with a variety of ships. Having gangs camp accelleration gates ruins this. Also it doesn't work entirely like a normal system gate. If you get scrammed before you hit the jump button you are scrammed. So if you for example burn toward an enemy at the accell gate and get scrammed you can not then just decide to jump. The "bug" if it is a bug, works especially well when your ship ends up getting caught in the gate itself. This is working as it should work. If people want to fight then get in the right ship for the plex and fight inside the plex. This is a poor argument and stinks of desire for a theme park/arena atmosphere in FW. The restrictions INSIDE the plex should be the limitation of this mechanic and if you cannot safely get your ship through the accel gate, too damn bad. As a defender, you already have the advantage of docking rights and thus being able to ship up/down and reship faster than an attacking fleet which, by virtue of this buggy mechanic, has no alternative than to jump out of system, reship, jump back (while facing the risk of tackle at each jump) and then warp into the plex where the defending force is already setup at range and having loaded grid. If the opposing force alreadt in system, albeit oversized, beats the defending fleet to the accel gate then you SHOULD run the risk of losing several ships to fast tackle while trying to crash the gate. *yawn* Right on par with the strength of most of your arguments, V..
That's nice. Sa souvraya niende misain ye. |
Xuixien
Rifterlings Ushra'Khan
83
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 20:26:00 -
[75] - Quote
I have to agree with Vordak. I get like halfway through that crap Callous Jade calls a post and I just can't stop myself from yawning. Rabble Rabble!! |
Real Poison
Aura of Darkness Nulli Secunda
108
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 20:27:00 -
[76] - Quote
Callous Jade wrote:... you SHOULD run the risk of losing several ships to fast tackle while trying to crash the gate....
Yeah every Player should have the right to get free kills of other Players. That's what you're paying CCP for, right?
Also CCP should make your opponents dumb enough so they always fall for your cheap traps. You're a paying customer! You deserve it!
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Bezerk'ah Vulkan
The Ressabiators
12
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 22:20:00 -
[77] - Quote
So...to not exploit...if i warp to a accel gate and a war target is there...i should just stay still for him to tackle me...is that it? what if the war target had fall asleep camping...should i wait untill he wakes up? or should i shoot him a bit in hope that the alarm of low shields wake him up, then let him tackle me? ... i'm confused on how to deal with this without exploiting |
Fiachra Shine
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 23:24:00 -
[78] - Quote
Bezerk'ah Vulkan wrote: ...or should i shoot him a bit in hope that the alarm of low shields wake him up, then let him tackle me? ...
I thought fitting weapons to your highs was an exploit |
Pinky Feldman
Gank Bangers Moar Tears
257
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 23:40:00 -
[79] - Quote
Real Poison wrote:Callous Jade wrote:... you SHOULD run the risk of losing several ships to fast tackle while trying to crash the gate.... Yeah every Player should have the right to get free kills of other Players. That's what you're paying CCP for, right? Also CCP should make your opponents dumb enough so they always fall for your cheap traps. You're a paying customer! You deserve it!
It has nothing to do with taking away free kills, its about taking away a get out of jail free card. If a player is too dumb to warp to an acceleration gate without checking d-scan he should die.
The moar you cry the less you pee |
Poetic Stanziel
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
1061
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 00:04:00 -
[80] - Quote
Pinky Feldman wrote:It has nothing to do with taking away free kills, its about taking away a get out of jail free card. Agreed.
I have a possible, simple fix that will make accel gate camping a viable tactic. The STAIN Travel Bookmark Collection - 451 Bookmarks |
|
Xuixien
Rifterlings Ushra'Khan
85
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 00:26:00 -
[81] - Quote
Why are we assuming that people aren't DScanning? I mean, what does that have to do with enforcing shiptypes in minor plexes? Rabble Rabble!! |
Schalac
Apocalypse Reign
68
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 03:58:00 -
[82] - Quote
I don't understand the problem. People already set up on the other side of stargates in an attempt to point the people that they push through and it is a common practice. Yet for some reason it is different on a FW plex gate? Oh I get it, you can't get your frig/destroyer killer T3s with off grid links into the minor plex to "pwn sum noobz lolz". If you don't like like it then leave FW. We don't want your bitching and complaining about every little thing you don't like asses messing up our little corner of space. |
Suqq Madiq
Amarr Empire
276
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 04:29:00 -
[83] - Quote
Working as intended. |
Har Harrison
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
222
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 04:35:00 -
[84] - Quote
People who have either been in an established FW corp or playing for a long time know this trick (same as some of them learned how to bug the timers as well, though that was never as widely known). People in those corps learned this trick. The general militia may not have.
When Fweddit joined we said there were subtle little things about FW that were different - this is a fantastic example of one and I cannot for a second term it an exploit for the following reasons.
1) Any man and his dog is going to spam the activate button the same way they do to warp their pod when they die or to jump gate or to dock etc...
2) We know that many objects have a larger interaction radius then they do physical one. It is not considered an exploit to stop your ship when you undock (the only action you can do that doesn't break the session invul) and still be within docking range even though you are far enough OUTSIDE the station that other ships can pass between you and the station!!! Some stations (seen a few Caldari for example) have MASSIVE docking range. If you know you can warp to an object at a range greater than 0 and you are still within the interaction range but won't run the risk of getting caught on the object, why wouldn't you?
Put them together and you have the "exploit".
A true exploit is when the game does something you wouldn't expect - getting LP paid out on loot drops as if it was destroyed, free reactions from decoupled silos or tracking disrupting for infinite tracking/range for example... Why won't CCP fix the ongoing FW issues? Fix the speed tanking of plexes
CCP Sreegs - I'm just Winston Wolf |
Braitai
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
16
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 05:58:00 -
[85] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Two step wrote:My personal opinion is that this seems like a bug, and it should be fixed. I'll leave the exploit determination to CCP. I would ask that you reconsider this. The point of having these restrictions is to encourage combat with a variety of ships. Having gangs camp accelleration gates ruins this. Also it doesn't work entirely like a normal system gate. If you get scrammed before you hit the jump button you are scrammed. So if you for example burn toward an enemy at the accell gate and get scrammed you can not then just decide to jump. The "bug" if it is a bug, works especially well when your ship ends up getting caught in the gate itself. This is working as it should work. If people want to fight then get in the right ship for the plex and fight inside the plex.
I agree 100%. Just thinking about your past posts I have a tendency to agree with you on a lot of things actually o7 |
Callous Jade
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
25
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 06:14:00 -
[86] - Quote
Schalac wrote:I don't understand the problem.
We know, you made that painfully obvious with your completely off target and idiotic rant.
|
Joanna Ramirez
Intaki Militia
67
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 06:53:00 -
[87] - Quote
Sokor Loro wrote:I'm a new-er FW player in a new-er FW alliance, but I have never heard this even talked about in comms, much less told to do. There was genuine shock and surprise by everyone in Fweddit comms, and as far as I know no one spoke up to tell anyone it was intended. People assumed it was a bug that developed in one of the inferno patches. I've honestly begun to think this is just a misunderstanding.
I am fairly shocked that no-one in Fweddit then seems to have read the one and only FW plexing guide. Underneath is the relevant bit from chapter 6:
When warping to plex, best range to warp to gate is 10km. You will still land close enough to activate the gate but wont risk bumping into gate. You can get tackled on acceleration gate but "spamming" the activate gate button can still fling you past the tacklers and it seems to depend on your ship size how big "tackle window" the enemy has (quite short).
Note, when I wrote that the "tackle window" was still marginally longer than it seems to be now. Hence I updated the text just now based on personal experiences. Perhaps it is a side effect of various plex patches which have happened after Inferno was put out. |
Pinky Feldman
Gank Bangers Moar Tears
257
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 08:54:00 -
[88] - Quote
To people comparing this to docking or jumping through a gate, those aren't even remotely the same thing in terms of game mechanics. Points don't stop people from jumping or docking and never have, however, they have always prevented someone from going into warp and I see no reason why they should act differently in this case. Also, how long you've been on a gate or in a station doesn't affect your ability to redock or jump, however, with the unscramable acceleration gate bug it only works on the initial warpin with a very small window and how long you wait to hit the gate results in two very different results.
tl:dr Points should stop someone from going into warp. End of story.
The moar you cry the less you pee |
Silence iKillYouu
KA POW POW Inc Late Night Alliance
185
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 09:08:00 -
[89] - Quote
Pinky Feldman wrote:To people comparing this to docking or jumping through a gate, those aren't even remotely the same thing in terms of game mechanics. Points don't stop people from jumping or docking and never have, however, they have always prevented someone from going into warp and I see no reason why they should act differently in this case. Also, how long you've been on a gate or in a station doesn't affect your ability to redock or jump, however, with the unscramable acceleration gate bug it only works on the initial warpin with a very small window and how long you wait to hit the gate results in two very different results.
tl:dr Points should stop someone from going into warp. End of story. shhh http://fw-frontline.blogspot.com/ |
Kuehnelt
Devoid Privateering
158
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 09:09:00 -
[90] - Quote
So if Fweddit are done having their noses rubbed in learn2play, here's a story about how I came to understand two acceleration gate mechanics at the same time:
One day, I thought it'd be a cool idea to have bookmarks by plexes, so that I could bounce from inside the plex and land on the acceleration gate quicker. And bookmarks near plexes can also be used to scout them out. So I did this in a system, warping to each plex and creating bookmarks as close as I could, and then left to look at the rest of constellation. When I came back: three war targets! Alright, where are they? I warped to the bookmark by the medium at zero... and landed at the acceleration gate at zero. At which were two interceptors and a Falcon that decloaked as I warped in. I was in a brick Arbitrator.
I did the natural thing and spammed jump on the gate, the interceptors failed to tackle me, and since Falcons can't get into mediums, nobody followed me in.
So there, just by playing the game and paying attention, I learned two-- er, three things:
1. If you spam jump on an acceleration gate you can get through a camp (didn't know about 10km yet - it was luck that I landed right, this time);
2. bookmarks on grid with acceleration gates are EVIL and take you straight to the gate, just as warping to a fleetmember will; and
3. If a gang has a Falcon in it, expect the non-Falcons to be reluctant to engage without it. |
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Har Harrison
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
225
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 11:20:00 -
[91] - Quote
Pinky Feldman wrote:To people comparing this to docking or jumping through a gate, those aren't even remotely the same thing in terms of game mechanics. Points don't stop people from jumping or docking and never have, however, they have always prevented someone from going into warp and I see no reason why they should act differently in this case. Also, how long you've been on a gate or in a station doesn't affect your ability to redock or jump, however, with the unscramable acceleration gate bug it only works on the initial warpin with a very small window and how long you wait to hit the gate results in two very different results.
tl:dr Points should stop someone from going into warp. End of story.
Except you missed the point of the analogy.
YOU MUST BE IN RANGE TO DOCK/JUMP/ACTIVATE GATE etc...
You can't jump if you get bumped off of gate or dock if you are bumped off of station. You can't activate an acceleration gate unless you are in range.
That is why the warp at 10 is done - it puts you within the activate range without risking getting caught on gate.
Spamming activate is the second part of the trick and is what anyone would do to get the server to process the command ASAP... Why won't CCP fix the ongoing FW issues? Fix the speed tanking of plexes
CCP Sreegs - I'm just Winston Wolf |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
240
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 13:00:00 -
[92] - Quote
Cookies'n'Cream wrote:Don't ALL acceleration gates work like this? ....and have since, like, forever? Is DurrDurrDurr just learning to play the game or wut? No, for the first 2.5 years of FW one was technically invulnerable if the acceleration gate had been activated. We bitched and moaned to some extent about it and it was changed so that 'normal' mechanics applied .. think it was initially meant to help FW noobs (everyone in FW has less than 2M SP, fact! ) survive against evil pirates camping their gates.
From the Reddit entry it sounds like the warp alignment tweak broke it again though .. either that or the mechanic cannot handle spam requests. Most likely scenario is that it is a combination of hitting the gate from the right angle (at speed and aligned) when activating and the omni-present (ie. everywhere in Eve) latency issue where client reports a successful scram with server having no such thing.
In short: Probably not a bug and thus not an exploit. Petition CCP to reorient all gates from horizontal to vertical as getting warp-ins from below/above is a lot harder than in plane |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
516
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 13:53:00 -
[93] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:Pinky Feldman wrote:It has nothing to do with taking away free kills, its about taking away a get out of jail free card. Agreed. I have a possible, simple fix that will make accel gate camping a viable tactic.
Why do we want to eliminate the ship limitted combat that is fws main draw for so many? Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
516
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 14:19:00 -
[94] - Quote
Also: From the title of the reddit article I thought fweddit exploited hans 3x in front of their fleet. I was interested in reading the details of what exactly that meant.
I was a bit disappointed when I read the post. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2727
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 14:20:00 -
[95] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Poetic Stanziel wrote:Pinky Feldman wrote:It has nothing to do with taking away free kills, its about taking away a get out of jail free card. Agreed. I have a possible, simple fix that will make accel gate camping a viable tactic. Why do we want to eliminate the ship limitted combat that is fws main draw for so many?
Agreeing with Cearain here. I think this is something that's working as intended for the Faction Warfare design. People wanting to fight plexing fleets should be splitting their own groups into appropriate ship classes to oppose said plexing fleets. Wanting to gate camp the acceleration gates with fast tackle omni fleets is understandable (its easier certainly) but its not in the interest of Faction Warfare gameplay.
To be honest i'd switch the gate activation over to the stargate/wormhole code and let anything activate gate whether its warp scrambled or not as long as its in activation range and have people need to set up their camps inside plexes if they want tackle.
Bottom line this is a mechanic (getting a smaller fleet past a larger one in order to fight under complex restrictions on ship weight) that allows an outnumbered side to fight a guerrilla defense against a superior foe. Faction warfare needs this kind of thing to prevent it becoming an identikit nullsec-lite style blobfest where the larger side always wins. The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedomInferno Wardecs - Shoot Goons for FREE $300,000 dollars :(-á |
Schalac
Apocalypse Reign
68
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 14:58:00 -
[96] - Quote
Callous Jade wrote:Schalac wrote:I don't understand the problem. We know, you made that painfully obvious with your completely off target and idiotic rant. So I stuck a nerve with you huh. Little too close to home for your liking? FW was set up to be an arena where you could fly a ship class and have fights of similar classes of ships. The only people that are bitching about this mechanic are those that want to not fight, but gank. In this instance FW is different from every other part of EVE and that is one of the defining features that people like about FW. If you take away this feature then FW is nothing more than null-lite and honestly not worth newer players getting involved with it other than to farm ISK. They would be at an even greater disadvantage then they already are.
So take your meaningless drivel elsewhere. We don't need you here. |
Xuixien
Rifterlings Ushra'Khan
85
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 15:59:00 -
[97] - Quote
Pinky Feldman wrote:To people comparing this to docking or jumping through a gate, those aren't even remotely the same thing in terms of game mechanics. Points don't stop people from jumping or docking and never have, however, they have always prevented someone from going into warp and I see no reason why they should act differently in this case. Also, how long you've been on a gate or in a station doesn't affect your ability to redock or jump, however, with the unscramable acceleration gate bug it only works on the initial warpin with a very small window and how long you wait to hit the gate results in two very different results.
tl:dr Points should stop someone from going into warp. End of story.
You're actually wrong.
When you jump, dock, or activate an acceleration gate, you start what's called a "SESSION CHANGE".
Say it with me: "SESSION..... CHANGE....."
Nothing can stop a session change.
But certain things can prevent a session change.
Such as aggression timers.
CCP has been very generous in allowing you to prevent a session change from occurring on the acceleration gate by pointing the target before they activate the gate. It works just like an aggression timer preventing you from docking or jumping, except this "aggression timer" is applied externally to the ship, rather than from any aggressive action of the pilot himself Rabble Rabble!! |
Lady Spank
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
2517
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 22:51:00 -
[98] - Quote
Bad Messenger wrote:Two step wrote:My personal opinion is that this seems like a bug, and it should be fixed. I'll leave the exploit determination to CCP. this bug has been fixed several times already but it keeps coming back.
Sounds par for the course for CCP. (a¦á_a¦â) ~ http://getoutnastyface.blogspot.com/ ~ (a¦á_a¦â) |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
351
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 04:14:00 -
[99] - Quote
Pinky Feldman wrote:It has nothing to do with taking away free kills, its about taking away a get out of jail free card. If a player is too dumb to warp to an acceleration gate without checking d-scan he should die. If the campers are too dumb to not GO INSIDE THE PLEX and camp the WT there then they are... pretty freaking ******** or too chicken to fight inside a plex.
So it all evens out. |
Poetic Stanziel
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
1061
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 04:59:00 -
[100] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Pinky Feldman wrote:It has nothing to do with taking away free kills, its about taking away a get out of jail free card. If a player is too dumb to warp to an acceleration gate without checking d-scan he should die. If the campers are too dumb to not GO INSIDE THE PLEX and camp the WT there then they are... pretty freaking ******** or too chicken to fight inside a plex. So it all evens out. Um.
If you're camping the gate to a minor plex with cruisers ...
The STAIN Travel Bookmark Collection - 451 Bookmarks |
|
Simyaldee
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
31
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 08:05:00 -
[101] - Quote
The Accel Gate Mechanic is fine to me in my own humble opinion and is extremely important to the small scale PvP that is supposed to be fostered by the FW Plex system.
The vast majority of people who are complaining about the mechanic seem to be completely blind to the fact that in a large majority of situations regarding this mechanic their are things that the fleet can do when the other fleet warps past them into the plex.
First Off. RESHIP. The Plex system is made with ship restrictions so that when you are faced with this situation you must SHIP DOWN!!!!
Second . Warp to the Medium or Major. If you want the positional advantage (considering the FWeddit fleet already seemed to have the numerical advantage this doesn't really apply to them) in a case where the dessy fleet outnumbers the Larger fleet you warp to the other plex and head into THOSE plexes and if the other FC wants to fight you can fight.
Thirdly. Wait for them to warp out to a stargate and then catch them their. If you outnumber them and they won't engage you, and you reaaaallllyyy wan't to gank them so bad. Do it like everybody else and camp a stargate for gods sake. If they warp to the station then their going to do your best to avoid you anyway, and then your just going to have wait to gank them somewhere else down the road or move on to option four.
Four. MOVE ON. If someone is going to extreme lengths to avoid you (considering you both outnumbered and outshipped them it's pretty obvious they wern't going to fight you) you might as well move on to find something that you CAN gank or fight.
Their are probably many different scenarios that can play out here but the point is that their are plenty of ways to adapt to the Mechanic instead of having the mechanic adapt to you. This is similar to the station lockout situation that us FW players were faced with when inferno came out. We gave a logical reasoning that station lockout would decrease the ease of small gang PvP, which it did. The Null Seccers laughed and said "Welcome to Null Sec" and the traditional. HTFU.
Considering that, it's hilarious for a Corporation that is primarily made up of Null Sec alts(My apologies if your a member of FWeddit thats either not a null sec alt, or a null seccer that agrees that this fosters small gang PvP and should remain as is) is complaining about a well known mechanic and complaining this is an "exploit". You know what? Welcome to Low-Sec HTFU.
Also for those who are claiming that the mechanic should change to punish people for not checking their DSCAN. Well if someone were to camp an accel gate with something that can actually get into the plex, you know, like the rest of low sec and fw does all the time, then that guy will get ganked and blow up. However the Minmatar fleet in question I am pretty sure warped to the gate knowing the mechanic(like everybody else in fw) would allow them to bypass the camping fleet.
In short, the mechanic is completely fine the way it is. Any discussion about changing whether difficult or easy is completely unnecessary considering the fact that people can easily adapt to this mechanic if it detriments them. The positives of the mechanic strongly outweigh the negatives, which only exist if people make it exists. Join the war, Join the4
|
Thomas Kreshant
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
143
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 09:00:00 -
[102] - Quote
Acceleration gates don't really foster small gang pvp they simply foster certain ship type pvp, it would hardly be small gang pvp with some alliance rolling around with 200+ man thrasher gangs going into minors to push you out while they farm systems just to hit T5 and then mission bear.
The very second that everyone let it known at T5 they were making billions and billions for very little effort the small gang you like in FW was at risk, if the Nulli boys end up making a mint plenty of other people in null will do the same.
Oh I'm a long time highsec mission bear just for the record. |
Simyaldee
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
31
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 10:41:00 -
[103] - Quote
Thomas Kreshant wrote:Acceleration gates don't really foster small gang pvp they simply foster certain ship type pvp, it would hardly be small gang pvp with some alliance rolling around with 200+ man thrasher gangs going into minors to push you out while they farm systems just to hit T5 and then mission bear.
The very second that everyone let it known at T5 they were making billions and billions for very little effort the small gang you like in FW was at risk, if the Nulli boys end up making a mint plenty of other people in null will do the same.
Oh I'm a long time highsec mission bear just for the record.
This is actually an excellent point, you are quite correct in the fact that they could get a 200+ thrasher gang. and just roam around killing everything however that isn't the case as you can see. Its been what...a week or two since Nulli joined. I have joked with several Gallente/Minmatar about this frequently. Nulli SUCKS at smaller gang PvP. I think the Amarr have capped one or two systems since Nulli joined? And the big one Kourmonen was capped by the Original Amarrian Corps not Nulli. A lot of the systems are vulnerable yes, but my understanding was that these were vulnerable for the most part before Nulli showed up.
Hopefully CCP has iterations for plexes on the way that will gimp the incredibly MASSIVE amount of farming that is going on on all sides. Of course their has been no sound of CCP anywhere when it comes to these threads that i have seen so i am not wasting my breath.
Now back to the plexing mechanics. The reason that it encourages small gang PvP is that their is a time limit on the plex, and because of the accel gate/no cyno/ no warping. It allows a well flown smaller fleet to outmaneuver a larger fleet, and reduces the chance of a a blob surprising the smaller fleet. And the timer gives a sense of urgency so that the fleet has less of an incentive to build up a massive blob fest and just force them out of the plex.
And speaking of 200 man thrasher gangs i haven't been in the Amarr/Mini theater have their been any of these? Could we get a kill report or something? Join the war, Join the4
|
Thomas Kreshant
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
143
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 10:53:00 -
[104] - Quote
Simyaldee wrote: And speaking of 200 man thrasher gangs i haven't been in the Amarr/Mini theater have their been any of these? Could we get a kill report or something?
No nothing quite so large but the point is with null alliances getting involved they have the man power to do such things if they wish, I think the largest gang I've been in/seen was around the 90 man mark (all Fweddit thrashers) but that was to shoot an ihub when we first joined mostly it's smaller anywhere in the 20's - 40 range.
The Amarr/Min warzone is picking back up and after a 'lets go plexing lull' this is currently more typical http://t.co/pMHnY49O of a fight although not to suggest it's the same people winning/losing every time. Things seem fairly fun for both sides with wins and losses going back and forth between the various groups and generally lots of people typing gf etc. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
518
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 18:55:00 -
[105] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Pinky Feldman wrote:It has nothing to do with taking away free kills, its about taking away a get out of jail free card. If a player is too dumb to warp to an acceleration gate without checking d-scan he should die. If the campers are too dumb to not GO INSIDE THE PLEX and camp the WT there then they are... pretty freaking ******** or too chicken to fight inside a plex. So it all evens out. Um. If you're camping the gate to a minor plex with cruisers ...
Your looking for ganks.
Which is fine, but the restrictions on plexes are what makes fw the best place for quality pvp. Having these gates camped by mouthbreathers will just make eve that much worse of a game. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
518
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 19:07:00 -
[106] - Quote
Thomas Kreshant wrote:Acceleration gates don't really foster small gang pvp.. .
Yeah, they really do. There are allot of different ways they do this. No fleet warps in plexs (or on grid witht eh accel gate) as well as the ship restrictions make fw the best place for pvp in eve.
200 thrashers come? do they all warp in at the same time? If not you may be able to move away from the warp in and kill some that arrive early before the rest can catch up.
Or go to a different minor plex. If someone follows kill him and run.
If they refuse to split up ok. They can sit 200 pilots in a plex and run the timer and you can run your own timer in a different plex. You will be doing the plexing work of 200 of thier pilots.
If there forces are smaller but still too much for you/your gang and you see they all entered the plex (using dscan) you can warp out and back to the gate. If one of them warps out you may be able to fight him back at the gate. (of course they can spam warp at the gate but often they won't.) then their gang inside the plex will have to complete 2 warps and burn to where you are fighting this other player before they can join in the fight.
There are other ways these plexes lead to great pvp. Seriously pretty much all the fights in plexes are great fights. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
352
|
Posted - 2012.08.05 14:19:00 -
[107] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Pinky Feldman wrote:It has nothing to do with taking away free kills, its about taking away a get out of jail free card. If a player is too dumb to warp to an acceleration gate without checking d-scan he should die. If the campers are too dumb to not GO INSIDE THE PLEX and camp the WT there then they are... pretty freaking ******** or too chicken to fight inside a plex. So it all evens out. Um. If you're camping the gate to a minor plex with cruisers ... What they didn't bring the right ships for the plex? Very smart. |
Pax Thar
The Black Rabbits Academy The Gurlstas Associates
44
|
Posted - 2012.08.05 18:04:00 -
[108] - Quote
Working as intended imo. Thers no point in have restricted gates if they can be camped on the in side. Camp the out side if you want to camp. Works just like jump gates, quit being lazy, looking to easy ganks and go pvp. |
Pinky Feldman
Gank Bangers Moar Tears
259
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 16:45:00 -
[109] - Quote
Xuixien wrote:Pinky Feldman wrote:To people comparing this to docking or jumping through a gate, those aren't even remotely the same thing in terms of game mechanics. Points don't stop people from jumping or docking and never have, however, they have always prevented someone from going into warp and I see no reason why they should act differently in this case. Also, how long you've been on a gate or in a station doesn't affect your ability to redock or jump, however, with the unscramable acceleration gate bug it only works on the initial warpin with a very small window and how long you wait to hit the gate results in two very different results.
tl:dr Points should stop someone from going into warp. End of story. You're actually wrong. When you jump, dock, or activate an acceleration gate, you start what's called a "SESSION CHANGE". Say it with me: "SESSION..... CHANGE....." Nothing can stop a session change. But certain things can prevent a session change. Such as aggression timers. CCP has been very generous in allowing you to prevent a session change from occurring on the acceleration gate by pointing the target before they activate the gate. It works just like an aggression timer preventing you from docking or jumping, except this "aggression timer" is applied externally to the ship, rather than from any aggressive action of the pilot himself
Except the "session change" mechanic has nothing to do with jumping or dock session changes, because when those happen you can't even be shot or targeted. The mechanics you just described have nothing to do with what actually happens, since the reason you have unscramable acceleration gate situations is due to the server ticks counting in seconds and the way your velocity is checked when going into warp as you come out of another warp.
If a target sits on the gate for more than a second, then activates it, after which you lock and point them, you will break their warp.
Stop comparing this mechanic to jumping through a gate or docking up. It may seem similar, to many of you, but the game mechanics and checks involved behind them are totally different.
People seem to think that allowing a fleet with fast lockers to camp gates would be a death knell to any sort of fighting inside plexes, to which I completely disagree. If you're camping a minor acceleration gate with a larger fleet, you'll probably only catch a handful of ships, limited to the number of ceptors you have before the rest slip through. In most cases, most of the fleet will be able to slip through, however it provides the fleet that was able to setup on the gate first, the ability to thin out some of the numbers and deny any reinforcements once a second force starts fighting inside of the plex.
Forcing all of the fights to happen inside of the plex ultimately constrains the potential for varying fleet engagements. It would be much more interesting if there was more potential for fights to happen outside of plexes rather than just inside of them. What many people fail to realize is that theres an inherent balance regarding this mechanic which is built in.
Inside of a plex, the defender has a distinct advantage. However, outside of a plex, the attacker has the advantage, since they're able to pick their warpin range and direction they choose to warp in, making the defender extremely vulnerable to long ranged sniping fleets or in the case of a conventional fleet they can warp each component of their gang in at their desired optimal. In fact, in most fleet battles that happen outside of the gate, the attacker wins.
People need to stop thinking in terms of what they're used to and defending that playstyle as the only way that combat should happen in FW. There are lots of exciting possibilities, but you need to learn to think outside of the box.
The moar you cry the less you pee |
Pinky Feldman
Gank Bangers Moar Tears
259
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 17:17:00 -
[110] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Poetic Stanziel wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Pinky Feldman wrote:It has nothing to do with taking away free kills, its about taking away a get out of jail free card. If a player is too dumb to warp to an acceleration gate without checking d-scan he should die. If the campers are too dumb to not GO INSIDE THE PLEX and camp the WT there then they are... pretty freaking ******** or too chicken to fight inside a plex. So it all evens out. Um. If you're camping the gate to a minor plex with cruisers ... Your looking for ganks. Which is fine, but the restrictions on plexes are what makes fw the best place for quality pvp. Having these gates camped by mouthbreathers will just make eve that much worse of a game.
You're assuming that the people camping the gate are completely untouchable, when the reality is that camping an acceleration gate that you can't enter is an extremely risky proposition and much different than camping a jump gate or a station. You don't have the possibility of deaggroing and jumping back through the gate or redocking, so the biggest safety net of those two playstyles are essentially eliminated leaving you with the equivalent of sitting in the middle of an asteroid belt at 0km with no ability to warp to on-grid pounces. If you get pinned down on an acceleration gate that you can't get into, you just die. Plain and simple.
I'm going to throw out a totally different scenario that goes against the theory that unscrammable acceleration gates only favor the smaller gang. Lets say i'm camping a medium plex gate with my Hurricane that has a sebo, which I might add is a very vulnerable position to be in, a single Arazu will pretty much ruin my day. Anyways, two cruisers enter the system and warp to the medium. This could potentially be a fun fight, since the cruisers can warp to me at range and kite somewhat evening up the fight or if they warp to the gate at 0km I can scram one of them and force them both to fight or one of them gets left to die. Either way, if they want to fight, I now the ability to force a fight or present consequence if they want to capture that plex.
Instead, with the current mechanics, they both gate-slide in and my only option as a solo PVPer is to ship down to a cruiser and take a 2v1 fight where they're already set up inside the plex, which is pretty much a guaranteed loss. Then, lets say I come back with 2 crusiers that will probably beat their cruisers, but they realize this too and run. I just reshipped for absolutely nothing and if I try to plex the time back down, those two people can just go to another system and start offensive plexing there while I have my hans tied in the current system.
I agree that the current mechanics strongly favor the underdog from a plexing standpoint, but from a PVP standpoint it does the complete opposite an just creates ridiculous reshippathon scenarios where you can do absolutely nothing to prevent people who want to plex, from being able to plex.
The moar you cry the less you pee |
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
354
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Posted - 2012.08.06 17:35:00 -
[111] - Quote
Quote:You're assuming that the people camping the gate are completely untouchable, when the reality is that camping an acceleration gate that you can't enter is an extremely risky proposition and much different than camping a jump gate or a station. You don't have the possibility of deaggroing and jumping back through the gate or redocking, so the biggest safety net of those two playstyles are essentially eliminated leaving you with the equivalent of sitting in the middle of an asteroid belt at 0km with no ability to warp to on-grid pounces. If you get pinned down on an acceleration gate that you can't get into, you just die. Plain and simple.
Yeah camping an acceleration gate is an extremely risky proposition because: 1. The other guys can hot drop you. 2. The other guys can get a warp in on you with their cloaky scout. 3. The other guys can jump into system and warp to plex at any range from any direction to land right on top of you. 4. Your fleet doesn't know how to align and use D-scan.
Edit: <--- Rolling eyes inserted before the "THEY CAN'T HOTDROP YOU, WHAT'RE YOU TALKING ABOUT!" crowd chimes in.
Otherwise, just let me know what the rules are and I'll adjust. CCP wants to allow for easy ganks of noobs on acceleration gates? Fine. CCP wants to allow noobs to get into plex? Fine. Whatever. |
Pax Thar
The Black Rabbits Academy The Gurlstas Associates
45
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Posted - 2012.08.06 17:41:00 -
[112] - Quote
Making it easier to accel camp doesnt add any more danger to anyone using dscan. It doesnt make pvp more dynamic and isnt thinking outside the box. Its letting guys overship and choke plexes instead of getting in propper ships for the plex and pvping. It defeats the entire purpose of having ship restrictions if those ships cant make it inside.
Working as intended. |
Pinky Feldman
Gank Bangers Moar Tears
259
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 17:57:00 -
[113] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Quote:You're assuming that the people camping the gate are completely untouchable, when the reality is that camping an acceleration gate that you can't enter is an extremely risky proposition and much different than camping a jump gate or a station. You don't have the possibility of deaggroing and jumping back through the gate or redocking, so the biggest safety net of those two playstyles are essentially eliminated leaving you with the equivalent of sitting in the middle of an asteroid belt at 0km with no ability to warp to on-grid pounces. If you get pinned down on an acceleration gate that you can't get into, you just die. Plain and simple.
Yeah camping an acceleration gate is an extremely risky proposition because: 1. The other guys can hot drop you. 2. The other guys can get a warp in on you with their cloaky scout. 3. The other guys can jump into system and warp to plex at any range from any direction to land right on top of you. 4. Your fleet doesn't know how to align and use D-scan. Edit: <--- Rolling eyes inserted before the "THEY CAN'T HOTDROP YOU, WHAT'RE YOU TALKING ABOUT!" crowd chimes in. Otherwise, just let me know what the rules are and I'll adjust. CCP wants to allow for easy ganks of noobs on acceleration gates? Fine. CCP wants to allow noobs to get into plex? Fine. Whatever.
Once again, this is the kind of predictable thinking that most of the older faction warfare players seem to have. Complaining that this will suddenly result in gankers sitting on acceleration gates as people warp to them in droves. If i'm in a plexing mood and I see a ceptor and a DPS ship sitting on an acceleration gate, i'm pretty sure i'm not going to warp to it. Most of the people seem to be opposed becuase they think it will suddenly create a lazy PVP environment, yet they're unwilling to let go of the ability to be lazy and warp to gates knowing you'll be able to slide through and the other person will have to reship while also giving you tons of time to see them coming on dscan. Sounds to me that people are just being lazy and unwilling to face the possibility of having to come up with new tactics.
1) Hot drops are rare enough at least on the Amarr/Min side that I wasn't even considering this most people run the second a cyno goes up anyways. Once again, the inability to hotdrop makes it risky since the static gate campers are essentially cut off from any sort of hot drop reinforcement trickery. 2) Maybe not cloaky scout, but you can warp loki boosted Arazus in at 100km that can point from 107km and hold down targets while the rest of the gang jumps in and warps. 3) Bro, you can warp every element of your gang in at the desired range, Falcons and snipers at 100km, logi at 70km and DPS at 0. 4) Even if your fleet knows how to align and hit D-scan, if you warp a smaller gang in to pin the larger enemy gang down, before you jump in your main fleet, unless they have you scouted, they're dead and theres nothing they can do about it.
People that think camping acceleration gates is risk free PVP with no hard counters are also the people that think you can't counter neutral logistics in highsec and that camping the Jita 4-4 undock is completely risk free.
The moar you cry the less you pee |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
521
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 18:02:00 -
[114] - Quote
Pinky Feldman wrote: You're assuming that the people camping the gate are completely untouchable, when the reality is that camping an acceleration gate that you can't enter is an extremely risky proposition and much different than camping a jump gate or a station. You don't have the possibility of deaggroing and jumping back through the gate or redocking, so the biggest safety net of those two playstyles are essentially eliminated leaving you with the equivalent of sitting in the middle of an asteroid belt at 0km with no ability to warp to on-grid pounces. If you get pinned down on an acceleration gate that you can't get into, you just die. Plain and simple..
Its not really that different from camping any other gate except its much easier because they always have to come in disruptor range to use the gate unlike a star gate that can kick you out far from tackle. So plexing will become sitting with a few interceptors on the gate with tornados and falcons at range blapping every frigate or destroyer that wants in. Local and dscan means there is not really much risk imo.
Pinky Feldman wrote: I'm going to throw out a totally different scenario that goes against the theory that unscrammable acceleration gates only favor the smaller gang. Lets say i'm camping a medium plex gate with my Hurricane that has a sebo, which I might add is a very vulnerable position to be in, a single Arazu will pretty much ruin my day. Anyways, two cruisers enter the system and warp to the medium. This could potentially be a fun fight, since the cruisers can warp to me at range and kite somewhat evening up the fight or if they warp to the gate at 0km I can scram one of them and force them both to fight or one of them gets left to die. Either way, if they want to fight, I now the ability to force a fight or present consequence if they want to capture that plex.
If they want to fight they can fight your bc. Like I said if they go for your bc and you scram them they then can't just jump in anytime they want. If they do not want to fight your bigger ship (perhaps they know you have a battleship, a falcon, or 5 other bcs ready to warp in on them) then they have the option to enter the plex. Then the ball is in your court you can ship down and fight for the plex or stay in your bigger ships and smack in local.
Pinky Feldman wrote: Instead, with the current mechanics, they both gate-slide in and my only option as a solo PVPer is to ship down to a cruiser and take a 2v1 fight where they're already set up inside the plex, which is pretty much a guaranteed loss..
Not really you can warp back to the gate and check your dscan to see if anyone warps out and back. They will often try to tackle you and their buddy will have to go through 2 warps to get to you. Try to kill the first guy in time. You can also open your own medium plex and see if either wants to come fight. Do they both come? If so does one burn out to you faster? The current plexing mechanics give many opportunities to split up larger gangs. But yeah if they won't split up and you don't want to fight them at the same time there will be no fight. But at least you are forcing 2 of them to do the same job you are doing alone in terms of plexing.
Also the ships can vary. Maybe you are in a faction cruiser and they are in a t1 cruiser and an af. You both can go in the plex and fight without worrying about falcons or gangs warping on top of you. If you fight on the accell gate then its the same as everywhere else in eve - blob trumps all.
I am really convinced that moving fights in plexes will make for better fights than moving them outside plexes.
Pinky Feldman wrote: Then, lets say I come back with 2 crusiers that will probably beat their cruisers, but they realize this too and run. I just reshipped for absolutely nothing and if I try to plex the time back down, those two people can just go to another system and start offensive plexing there while I have my hans tied in the current system.
I agree this needs to be addressed but its a different issue. It should be addressed by allowing us to know when and what type of plexes are attacked so we can respond in time with the appropriate ships. This could also be addressed by a count down type mechanic so when they run with an enemy on grid they would lose the work they did in the plex.
Pinky Feldman wrote: I agree that the current mechanics strongly favor the underdog from a plexing standpoint, but from a PVP standpoint it does the complete opposite an just creates ridiculous reshippathon scenarios where you can do absolutely nothing to prevent people who want to plex, from being able to plex.
I agree that this is a problem but the answer is not to allow us to gate camp plexes so we can blap smaller ships. Its to make it so that you will make more lp by fighting than you will by running. This can be done by giving notifications and a form of a timer countdown.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Pinky Feldman
Gank Bangers Moar Tears
259
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 18:08:00 -
[115] - Quote
Pax Thar wrote:Making it easier to accel camp doesnt add any more danger to anyone using dscan. It doesnt make pvp more dynamic and isnt thinking outside the box. Its letting guys overship and choke plexes instead of getting in propper ships for the plex and pvping. It defeats the entire purpose of having ship restrictions if those ships cant make it inside.
Working as intended.
I said before, in a fleet setting its unlikely that an overshipped fleet will be able to catch an entire opposing fleet on a plex gate. Most of the opposing fleet will still likely be able to get through, however, now they have the ability to thin out some of the enemy gang and putting some consequence in their ability to take the plex.
The ability to gate slide pretty much results in the following scenario.
Attackers - Reship to appropriate size. If you have equal or fewer numbers, concede the plex, unless you just want to fight or are bad at estimating strength, in which case die gloriously.
Defenders - Did the other gang bring a fleet that you can't beat? If no, then proceed to kill their entire fleet. If yes, GTFO and either run plexes somewhere else, or ship down and get inside a smaller plex, or upship and get into a bigger plex.
Both parties repeat the process until one side gets tired of reshipping and/or overestimates their fleet strength and decides to fight otherwise dock up and smack from inside the station.
The moar you cry the less you pee |
Wenron
Rifterlings Ushra'Khan
43
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 18:10:00 -
[116] - Quote
Point is still moot until dev input.
Pun not intentional. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
354
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 18:17:00 -
[117] - Quote
The ONLY complaint was your mischaracterization of RISK associated with busting up a plex gate camp.
1. There are STILL no hot drops on FW plex gates. 2. 107km "Loki boosted Arazus" can't stop sombody from turning on their MWD and burning away. 3. You can warp every element of your gang at the desired range - FROM a warp in locations. Put your gate camp away from any aligned celestials. No warp-in maneuvere is practicable. 4. This is not a problem if your crew is smart enough to position themselves properly in the first place (See Point #3).
Will you at least retract the following statement?
Quote:leaving you with the equivalent of sitting in the middle of an asteroid belt at 0km with no ability to warp to on-grid pounces
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Pinky Feldman
Gank Bangers Moar Tears
259
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 18:19:00 -
[118] - Quote
Cearain wrote: *stuff about timers and notifications*
*moar stuff about nados and ceptors*
I'm against the idea of having system wide notifications and what not. I understand the value they would provide, but from an intel standpoint, this is something that should be placed in the hands of the players. Good intel provides a HUGE advantage for the side that has the resources and the willingness to properly scout and is one of the biggest unspoken force multipliers in the game. Removing this aspect from the game would take away something that exists in every other part of EVE and would be disappointing IMO.
Regarding the nados and ceptors, theres nothing stopping people from sitting instalocking Arty nados in front of or behind minor acceleration gates as it is. Technically you can do this already.
The moar you cry the less you pee |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
521
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 18:20:00 -
[119] - Quote
Pinky Feldman wrote:Pax Thar wrote:Making it easier to accel camp doesnt add any more danger to anyone using dscan. It doesnt make pvp more dynamic and isnt thinking outside the box. Its letting guys overship and choke plexes instead of getting in propper ships for the plex and pvping. It defeats the entire purpose of having ship restrictions if those ships cant make it inside.
Working as intended. I said before, in a fleet setting its unlikely that an overshipped fleet will be able to catch an entire opposing fleet on a plex gate. Most of the opposing fleet will still likely be able to get through, however, now they have the ability to thin out some of the enemy gang and putting some consequence in their ability to take the plex. The ability to gate slide pretty much results in the following scenario. Attackers - Reship to appropriate size. If you have equal or fewer numbers, concede the plex, ....
Or reship to a smaller or larger class of plex and run that. See if the enemy can bring something to fight. Or spread out and start running several plexes. If the enemy sits in one big blob in the plex you will be doing multiple times the amount of plexing they will.
Pinky Feldman wrote: Defenders - Did the other gang bring a fleet that you can't beat? If no, then proceed to kill their entire fleet. If yes, GTFO and either run plexes somewhere else, or ship down and get inside a smaller plex, or upship and get into a bigger plex.
Again you are assuming neither side is willing to split up their gang to get fights. I understand that is the case often. But that is your choice. Its not forced on you by the mechanics. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Pinky Feldman
Gank Bangers Moar Tears
259
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 18:34:00 -
[120] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:The ONLY complaint was your mischaracterization of RISK associated with busting up a plex gate camp. 1. There are STILL no hot drops on FW plex gates. 2. 107km "Loki boosted Arazus" can't stop sombody from turning on their MWD and burning away. 3. You can warp every element of your gang at the desired range - FROM a warp in locations. Put your gate camp away from any aligned celestials. No warp-in maneuvere is practicable. 4. This is not a problem if your crew is smart enough to position themselves properly in the first place (See Point #3). Will you at least retract the following statement? Quote:leaving you with the equivalent of sitting in the middle of an asteroid belt at 0km with no ability to warp to on-grid pounces Fair enough its not exactly like sitting in the middle of an asteroid belt at 0km, but I still maintain that current game mechanics allow various cheesy yet slightly less effective but equally risk averse variants of this already.
Instalock ceptors with sentry drones assigned to them, instalock nados placed in line with the acceleration gate to minimize transversal.
Fleets that rely on proper placement are still more or less niche fleets like the ones I just mentioned, that probably wouldn't do well in a standup fight anyways and are very situational.
The moar you cry the less you pee |
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Pinky Feldman
Gank Bangers Moar Tears
259
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 18:47:00 -
[121] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Pinky Feldman wrote:Pax Thar wrote:Making it easier to accel camp doesnt add any more danger to anyone using dscan. It doesnt make pvp more dynamic and isnt thinking outside the box. Its letting guys overship and choke plexes instead of getting in propper ships for the plex and pvping. It defeats the entire purpose of having ship restrictions if those ships cant make it inside.
Working as intended. I said before, in a fleet setting its unlikely that an overshipped fleet will be able to catch an entire opposing fleet on a plex gate. Most of the opposing fleet will still likely be able to get through, however, now they have the ability to thin out some of the enemy gang and putting some consequence in their ability to take the plex. The ability to gate slide pretty much results in the following scenario. Attackers - Reship to appropriate size. If you have equal or fewer numbers, concede the plex, .... Or reship to a smaller or larger class of plex and run that. See if the enemy can bring something to fight. Or spread out and start running several plexes. If the enemy sits in one big blob in the plex you will be doing multiple times the amount of plexing they will. Pinky Feldman wrote: Defenders - Did the other gang bring a fleet that you can't beat? If no, then proceed to kill their entire fleet. If yes, GTFO and either run plexes somewhere else, or ship down and get inside a smaller plex, or upship and get into a bigger plex.
Again you are assuming neither side is willing to split up their gang to get fights. I understand that is the case often. But that is your choice. Its not forced on you by the mechanics.
Of course the other gang can split up and running many other plexes, but we already established earlier that the current mechanics favor those who seek only to plex and avoid conflict.
Finally, regarding the splitting your gang up, sure thats an option, but it doesn't make it a good one and is entirely situational. If you're the attacker, you need to have a larger force since you're already limited by your group's ability to reinforce losses, so dropping numbers until you get an "even" fight still ultimately becomes a loss since you can't reship as quickly as the other side can, and there is nothing that you can do to stop them from sending in said reinforcements.
Right now, the way the mechanics work for those who want to maximize system capture, if you don't have the right ships and can't get into the plex first, most of the time you're better off just conceding that plex without a fight and getting into the appropriate ships for the next plex so that you can hopefully beat your opponent into it.
The moar you cry the less you pee |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
521
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 21:17:00 -
[122] - Quote
Pinky Feldman wrote:Cearain wrote: *stuff about timers and notifications*
*moar stuff about nados and ceptors*
I'm against the idea of having system wide notifications and what not. I understand the value they would provide, but from an intel standpoint, this is something that should be placed in the hands of the players. Good intel provides a HUGE advantage for the side that has the resources and the willingness to properly scout and is one of the biggest unspoken force multipliers in the game. Removing this aspect from the game would take away something that exists in every other part of EVE .....
I agree that the need for alt scouts exists in every other part of eve. And yes its a huge advantage. Its the reason good quality pvp takes hours to find in eve. And why so much eve time for most pvpers involves shipping up and shipping down. But like you said every other aspect of eve emphasizes alt scouts. There is no reason one single aspect of the game can't be geared toward people who just want to jump in a ship and pew.
The strategies would change from having alts find the enemy gang so you can ship up 2xs their strength, to assigning pilots to different systems so they can continually fight. There is no reason all the eve pvp has to be the same.
Pinky Feldman wrote: Regarding the nados and ceptors, theres nothing stopping people from sitting instalocking Arty nados in front of or behind minor acceleration gates as it is. Technically you can do this already.
You might be right. I don't know if you are invulnerable after you activate the gate. If naods become a problem then ccp should address it.
In any event helping people camp accelleration gates is not really a solution to the problem of plexing being a pve activity where pvp is avoided. People will just warp a distance from the gate and enter it. You will make plexing more tedious but that is about it.
The notification system and the timer countdown will actually make it so you are better off fighting as opposed to always running. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
521
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 21:26:00 -
[123] - Quote
Pinky Feldman wrote:Cearain wrote:Pinky Feldman wrote:
I said before, in a fleet setting its unlikely that an overshipped fleet will be able to catch an entire opposing fleet on a plex gate. Most of the opposing fleet will still likely be able to get through, however, now they have the ability to thin out some of the enemy gang and putting some consequence in their ability to take the plex.
The ability to gate slide pretty much results in the following scenario.
Attackers - Reship to appropriate size. If you have equal or fewer numbers, concede the plex, ....
Or reship to a smaller or larger class of plex and run that. See if the enemy can bring something to fight. Or spread out and start running several plexes. If the enemy sits in one big blob in the plex you will be doing multiple times the amount of plexing they will. Pinky Feldman wrote: Defenders - Did the other gang bring a fleet that you can't beat? If no, then proceed to kill their entire fleet. If yes, GTFO and either run plexes somewhere else, or ship down and get inside a smaller plex, or upship and get into a bigger plex.
Again you are assuming neither side is willing to split up their gang to get fights. I understand that is the case often. But that is your choice. Its not forced on you by the mechanics. Of course the other gang can split up and running many other plexes, but we already established earlier that the current mechanics favor those who seek only to plex and avoid conflict.
Helping accel gate campers will do little to improve this.
Pinky Feldman wrote: Finally, regarding the splitting your gang up, sure thats an option, but it doesn't make it a good one and is entirely situational. If you're the attacker, you need to have a larger force since you're already limited by your group's ability to reinforce losses, so dropping numbers until you get an "even" fight still ultimately becomes a loss since you can't reship as quickly as the other side can, and there is nothing that you can do to stop them from sending in said reinforcements..
Even if we end up fighting outside a plexes instead of inside a plex the attacker will still need more numbers due to an inability to reship. You are expressing problems that your proposal doesn't solve.
What you identified is a problem with the station lockout rule. Not the rule that you can't easilly gank people as they enter plexes.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Michael Harari
The Hatchery Team Liquid
193
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 19:54:00 -
[124] - Quote
Why dont the campers just split their fleet on the inside and outside of the plex, just like you have to do on a stargate? |
Bad Messenger
Nasranite Watch Caldari State Capturing
189
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Posted - 2012.08.10 13:19:00 -
[125] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Why dont the campers just split their fleet on the inside and outside of the plex, just like you have to do on a stargate?
New people are trying to figure best way to fight for the plexes, old veterans know lot of different tricks how to win plex fights.
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