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Yakia TovilToba
Halliburton Inc.
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Posted - 2010.10.08 09:31:00 -
[1]
I can't believe there is so much whining about this. For years you can buy isk with money (via ETC, now via PLEX), that has a direct impact on the gameplay. Alliances that lost their capital fleets bought new ones and turned the tables with RL-Cash. No one complained.
Now you can remap for 15 $ more than once a year. It has no direct impact on the game, the vets are training with 2772 SP/hour anyways if they like. And anyone with RL-Cash can buy his way to win by buying a high SP character, indefinite ship replacement or faction gear. Yet they whine about the remapping option. How incredibly dumb must one be to complain about this feature ? Most of the MMOs I played (and that are quite a few) now have one or the other kind of microtransaction (it's a clear trend in the MMO industry) and often it gives you direct advantage over your fellow players, like special heal portions that don't stack with regular potions or gear with better stats etc. CCP is doing something completely harmless in this respect, yet there are ******s to whine about it, WTF has happened to this community ?
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baltec1
Antares Shipyards Circle-Of-Two
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Posted - 2010.10.08 09:34:00 -
[2]
Its always been like this
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.10.08 09:38:00 -
[3]
àand you don't see the difference between the things you describe? ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Illwill Bill
Svea Rike Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2010.10.08 09:38:00 -
[4]
The difference between RMT and microtransactions is that MT's are at a set price, while RMT prices are based on supply/demand. When it comes to MT's, CCP will have a monopoly.
Originally by: Stitcher For frak's sake, it took millions of years of evolution for that brain to get inside your skull, would it kill you to actually USE the damned thing?
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Intense Thinker
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.10.08 09:39:00 -
[5]
FFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUU Microtransactions!!!! Signature locked for editing a moderator's warning. Zymurgist |
Diomedes Calypso
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Posted - 2010.10.08 09:43:00 -
[6]
As long as there is a RMT with or without CCP involved pretty much everything in the game of value is availbe for a "micro transaction". .. Its been that way all along.
The harder CCP would try to crack down the higher the potential profit for isk sellers would be...if it got to a few $ an hour you'd have college students ratting for beer money selling isk to fellow students with rich parents ... its a reality.
The only real way around it would to get rid of the free flowing economy.... force people to do missions to get ship or ammo or implants etc drop that would "bind on contact" ...basically be untransferable . I think a large percentage of people play the game for the industrial and economic aspect of it and many pure pvpers would go nuts if they had to do missions for each ship , instead of other ways they might earn isk.
That would change the game seriously and I really think that huge perecntages of people would lose interest or never gain interest if the game if it wre all about the lame pve thats here.
Basically if you have a free in game economy you're bound to have a sutuation where people can get any game item with real $
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Orion GUardian
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.10.08 09:43:00 -
[7]
Problem is not the thing itself, but what might follow.
Eve started as a "different than all the others" game bakc in 2003 and such attracted players who did want to play a different kind of game.
When WOW and Clones came out at some point it became fashion "let the players pay more so they get some ingame stuff for real money"
Eve didn't do that, Selling Gametime for ISK was their way to discourage RMT. But now with introduction of ANOTHER Realmoney for ingame feature they pave the way for more stuff. Let it be "New Portrait for PLEX" next, "Different colors for your ship for PLEX", "larger ignorelist for PLEX" etc. and you come to "New T2 ship for PLEX" thats at least what everyone who complains is fearing.
That eve becomes a "either you pay more money or you wont be competetive anymore" same reason why we hate the idea of "SP for PLEX" because we HATE the idea that people thata re successful in Real life are AUTOMATICALLY better of in a game as well. even if there already IS the PLEX -> ISK way for rich people to get ingame money. ISK is so easy to earn ingame that it doesn't make much of a difference and it helps other players to play without spending money.
Dont see the feature, see what might follow. I dont want to play a game where you have to pay money IN ADDITION to the subscription fee to remain competetive. because that would lead "free expansions" ad absurdum.
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Serpents smile
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Posted - 2010.10.08 09:45:00 -
[8]
It starts with something harmless. Some of us just are worried where it will lead to.
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Jennifer Starling
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Posted - 2010.10.08 09:45:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Orion GUardian When WOW and Clones came out at some point it became fashion "let the players pay more so they get some ingame stuff for real money"
You mean expansion packs or .. ?
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Diomedes Calypso
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Posted - 2010.10.08 09:50:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Illwill Bill The difference between RMT and microtransactions is that MT's are at a set price, while RMT prices are based on supply/demand. When it comes to MT's, CCP will have a monopoly.
CCP has a monopoly on Arbalest Heavy Missle Launchers and Ocular Implant - Standars too. Only they can make them. After they aremagically created and dropped into space or doled from an NPC to players, the players are free to sell them to other players for isk.
ISK is purchasable for real $ ...either legitimately from CCP via the plex sale or from ways outside the Eula.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.10.08 09:54:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Diomedes Calypso ISK is purchasable for real $ ...either legitimately from CCP via the plex sale or from ways outside the Eula.
No. You never buy ISK from CCP ù that's the whole point. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Illwill Bill
Svea Rike Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2010.10.08 09:54:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Illwill Bill on 08/10/2010 09:56:33
Originally by: Diomedes Calypso
CCP has a monopoly on Arbalest Heavy Missle Launchers and Ocular Implant - Standars too. Only they can make them. After they aremagically created and dropped into space or doled from an NPC to players, the players are free to sell them to other players for isk.
That's true, but your analogy is a failure. Arbalest launchers can be traded on the market. A cosmetic improvement to your avatar, bought with microtransactions, cannot.
An arbalest can be dropped while playing. The means with wich you complete microtransactions are not.
Originally by: Stitcher For frak's sake, it took millions of years of evolution for that brain to get inside your skull, would it kill you to actually USE the damned thing?
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Diomedes Calypso
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Posted - 2010.10.08 10:11:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Orion GUardian Problem is not the thing itself, but what might follow.
Eve started as a "different than all the others" game bakc in 2003 and such attracted players who did want to play a different kind of game.
When WOW and Clones came out at some point it became fashion "let the players pay more so they get some ingame stuff for real money"
Eve didn't do that, Selling Gametime for ISK was their way to discourage RMT. But now with introduction of ANOTHER Realmoney for ingame feature they pave the way for more stuff. Let it be "New Portrait for PLEX" next, "Different colors for your ship for PLEX", "larger ignorelist for PLEX" etc. and you come to "New T2 ship for PLEX" thats at least what everyone who complains is fearing.
That eve becomes a "either you pay more money or you wont be competetive anymore" same reason why we hate the idea of "SP for PLEX" because we HATE the idea that people thata re successful in Real life are AUTOMATICALLY better of in a game as well. even if there already IS the PLEX -> ISK way for rich people to get ingame money. ISK is so easy to earn ingame that it doesn't make much of a difference and it helps other players to play without spending money.
Dont see the feature, see what might follow. I dont want to play a game where you have to pay money IN ADDITION to the subscription fee to remain competetive. because that would lead "free expansions" ad absurdum.
I see where youÆre trying to go here but hereÆs where I think youÆre mixing apples and oranges:
The remap proposed is entirely available through game play. If you pvp much, even if you survive 95 % the time but enjoying fighting enough to engage youÆre going to lose a few hundred million of ships a month and maybe the same in implants à
The most expensive attribute implants,, the plus 5s go in the vicinity of 200 million each.. a pair is about equivalent to the cost of a plex and a plex/350 million isk are pretty much the same thingàone is immediately transferable to the other less a few percent market friction.
The real question to me is, does it make sense to have a way for players to have a way to get a remap sooner than 12 months at a cost the same way theyÆd buy implants or a ship ? I think it would be good to have a way to get a remap sooner than 12 monthsà.but I do think it should have a costà.for the same reason you donÆt hand out free ships or ammo or have every player have the same skills from day one. Having a remap cost a similar amount to a pair of +5s seems in scale to me.
Now, one class of thing you bring up is a problem in itself.
There is a real difference between a player needing to purchase and implant/remap from an NPC and a player being forced to use in game assets to have a larger block list to avoid spam.
But T2 ships? They are currently availbe for plex.. in fact half the pvpers I know buy a portion of their combat ships with plexà the half of the players who donÆt really enjoy industry and the game economy. Well, I guess there are a few pvp players who will admit to enjoying ratting or comlexes and they might also avoid using plex to buy their ships.
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Tiger's Spirit
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.10.08 10:12:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Tiger''s Spirit on 08/10/2010 10:13:44 Edited by: Tiger''s Spirit on 08/10/2010 10:13:16
Originally by: Yakia TovilToba I can't believe there is so much whining about this. For years you can buy isk with money (via ETC, now via PLEX), that has a direct impact on the gameplay. Alliances that lost their capital fleets bought new ones and turned the tables with RL-Cash. No one complained.
Now you can remap for 15 $ more than once a year. It has no direct impact on the game, the vets are training with 2772 SP/hour anyways if they like. And anyone with RL-Cash can buy his way to win by buying a high SP character, indefinite ship replacement or faction gear. Yet they whine about the remapping option. How incredibly dumb must one be to complain about this feature ? Most of the MMOs I played (and that are quite a few) now have one or the other kind of microtransaction (it's a clear trend in the MMO industry) and often it gives you direct advantage over your fellow players, like special heal portions that don't stack with regular potions or gear with better stats etc. CCP is doing something completely harmless in this respect, yet there are ******s to whine about it, WTF has happened to this community ?
I think the remap for money not too dangerous. When they will create double learning speed for money or same thing, that's will be dangerous.
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Serpents smile
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Posted - 2010.10.08 10:28:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Diomedes Calypso
But T2 ships? They are currently availbe for plex.. in fact half the pvpers I know buy a portion of their combat ships with plexà
Those t2 ships are made by players in game with in game tools and in game minerals. If you can buy them like the remap they appear out of nowhere, *poof* t2 ship. Get it?
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Diomedes Calypso
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Posted - 2010.10.08 10:34:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Diomedes Calypso ISK is purchasable for real $ ...either legitimately from CCP via the plex sale or from ways outside the Eula.
No. You never buy ISK from CCP ù that's the whole point.
You 100% buy isk directly fomr CCP.
The whole idea that you buy the isk from players is a marketing ruse (one that pulls the wool over so many peoples eyes evidently)
All isk is created by CCP (infinite amounts availble with a flick of their wrists). All game time is created by CCP (for a larger real $ cost.. each incremental hour of game time played bears a cost in terms of extra server and customer service load even if you left the overhead asside).
CCP uses some smoke and mirrors to create the perception that by giving free game time to people parting with their isk, in direct proprtion to player selling a certain chit, that somehow playersr have created something of value. The can do the coi little "moi?" when accused of selling isk where anyone can see the quid pro quo
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Diomedes Calypso
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Posted - 2010.10.08 10:41:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Serpents smile
Originally by: Diomedes Calypso
But T2 ships? They are currently availbe for plex.. in fact half the pvpers I know buy a portion of their combat ships with plexà
Those t2 ships are made by players in game with in game tools and in game minerals. If you can buy them like the remap they appear out of nowhere, *poof* t2 ship. Get it?
Don't Arbalest Heavy Missle Launchers, Navy Ravens, Standard implants and yes ..even the mundane little veldespar ores also apear "pop" out of no-where?
I spend my time trading to buy stuff...which means providing liquidity to markets, and often in my case spending the time and effort to bring goods to places where people will gladly pay a premium price instead of making 6 or 7 jumps to save 3 or 4 million isk.
That effort is every bit as legitimate creation as shooting a rat and having Isk flow into your wallet and random items scattered in their wrecks.
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Jennifer Starling
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Posted - 2010.10.08 10:43:00 -
[18]
My reasoning is simple:
remaps for ISK > remaps for Plex > no remaps at all
Grinding 350 m isn't that impossible, and if CCP gets more RL ISK (icelandic crowns) in the process then sure why not ..
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Orion GUardian
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.10.08 10:47:00 -
[19]
Damn, fix the forum already, I wrote a nice 4000 characters post and damn forum said "login again" and everythings gone....
Long story short:
No I did NOT mean "Expansion sets" I meant "WoW Clones" MMORPGs that sue the same concept in a similar or different setting.
That is: Grind XP, grind equippment and PvP being reliand on XP and equippment on sharded servers. Every Expesion is better equippment and more levels so you have to grind again.
And the other thing I wrote:
People are jealous of wealthy people in Real life. They dislike it that people with money have far superior living conditions (nicer car, nicer house, nicer holidays, faster internet, hotter wife) and they DO NOT WANT to extend that into their hobby.
If a rich guy buys a character and ISK per PLEX they can at leats say "that kind of cheating, so it doesn't count. But if there are 100 features to enhance your character with PLEX than you can't say that anymore.
In EvE every new char is created equal and only time and hard work could make some better than others. but if it continues like it seems, there may be a kind of "Animal Farm" situation when some are "more equal". Because if one guy spend 100$ on his new character to get a nicer noobship, free ISK, free SP and a blowjob and thats why he is superior to another new char its not a kind of game I want to play.
(ok I cut alot of stuff so bear with it)
I think we wont get MT for Ships or SP or so in the near future, perhaps in the far future but I'd hate that as well. What I think we WILL get as soon as its possible is Incarna being a "Second Life Clone". "If you want the lates fashion on your character: Use PLEX" THAT is what I suspect will happen in any case.
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0oO0oOoOo0o
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Posted - 2010.10.08 10:47:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Illwill Bill The difference between RMT and microtransactions is that MT's are at a set price, while RMT prices are based on supply/demand. When it comes to MT's, CCP will have a monopoly.
plex are issue to supply/demand as well. i'll by my remaps for isk. and the remap rumour made the plex price go up from under 320 to over 360 mil instantly. you buy the remap for plex, not direct money. a plex is not different from other ingame items. instead of buying a shiny t2 ship and "owning" someone in game, you buy a remap and continue to fly your cheap t1 ship. doesn't sound like an unfair advantage to me.
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Orion GUardian
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.10.08 10:52:00 -
[21]
PS:
THIS is an issue I'd really like some Feedback from CCP about. I bet Torfi is already regretting having said that in his interview.
And I say it again: The problem is NOT the issue at hand BUT what might follow. (I could give a nice example from the timeframe 1933-1939 in my homecountry but I wont)
Its not even said that it MIGHT lead to the following "Today PLEX for remap tomorrow PLEX for +5% to Turretdmg for one Month" but the indication that it COULD is enough for a ragestorm because deep down we do NOT want Eve online to become a capitalistic Monster where Real Life money gives you a real advantage. (Having billions of ISK for PLEX is no advantage really, they are spend as fast as they are aquired and only prevent you from having to earn ISK yourself.)
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Chesty McJubblies
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2010.10.08 10:58:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Orion GUardian Damn, fix the forum already, I wrote a nice 4000 characters post and damn forum said "login again" and everythings gone....
lol, look at you. Suggestion: Remove the "new topic" button from everywhere apart from the list of topics section within a subforum.
That'd save those with chronic hand/eye coordination some face. |
Orion GUardian
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.10.08 11:03:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Chesty McJubblies
Originally by: Orion GUardian Damn, fix the forum already, I wrote a nice 4000 characters post and damn forum said "login again" and everythings gone....
lol, look at you.
Yeah point and laugh, thats life ^^
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Illwill Bill
Svea Rike Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2010.10.08 11:06:00 -
[24]
Originally by: 0oO0oOoOo0o
plex are issue to supply/demand as well. i'll by my remaps for isk. and the remap rumour made the plex price go up from under 320 to over 360 mil instantly. you buy the remap for plex, not direct money. a plex is not different from other ingame items. instead of buying a shiny t2 ship and "owning" someone in game, you buy a remap and continue to fly your cheap t1 ship. doesn't sound like an unfair advantage to me.
If the rate between Plex/remap was subjected to supply/demand, then I wouldn't be bothered. The problem is that CCP is creating an artificial value of the plex.
Personally, I think that the problem that there are too many plexes and too few buyers. Considering how the market in Jita looks (and I realize this is not completely accurate data), I'd say there is a surplus of PLEX'es on the market.
This is obviously a problem, as this will in the long run mean that the PLEX price will go down. This means that the USD/ISK exchange rate will be bad when compared to less EULA-compliant competitors, which is the main reason for PLEX to exist in the first place.
I can see why there is a need to keep the PLEX prices up (Plex for <insert third-world country with recent natural disaster here> and remaps for plex), but seriously, isn't there another ISK sink that would be less offensive to old dinousaurs like Yours truly?
Originally by: Stitcher For frak's sake, it took millions of years of evolution for that brain to get inside your skull, would it kill you to actually USE the damned thing?
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betoli
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Posted - 2010.10.08 11:12:00 -
[25]
Originally by: 0oO0oOoOo0o
plex are issue to supply/demand as well.
... but not an in game supply/demand - the supply is from outside the game. That is the problem. That some players want to fly expensive ships, lose them frequently, and NOT MAKE ENOUGH ISK IS IN-GAME TO COVER THEIR COSTS have some kind of right to bring in isk from outside the game universe to allow them to do that... well... cheating?
I can see merit in people being rewarded with game time, if they spend sufficiently large amounts of time playing successfully that they have spare isk..
I can see merit in rewarding people for being good at the game (remaps for LP or or for PVP kills?)
Any method of ISK coming into the game universe without an in-game achievement to go with it should be eradicated. It simply leads to a credit card competition.
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Illwill Bill
Svea Rike Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2010.10.08 11:15:00 -
[26]
Quote: remaps for LP
Actually, I like that idea. A lot.
Originally by: Stitcher For frak's sake, it took millions of years of evolution for that brain to get inside your skull, would it kill you to actually USE the damned thing?
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.10.08 11:25:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Tippia on 08/10/2010 11:30:35
Originally by: Diomedes Calypso You 100% buy isk directly fomr CCP.
No. You buy ISK that other players have extracted from the game using the existing mechanics that have various limitations and balancing features built in.
This is 100% different from buying "directly from CCP", whereby said limitations and balance mechanics would be bypassed.
Quote: All isk is created by CCP (infinite amounts availble with a flick of their wrists).
Incorrect. All ISK is created through limited mechanics by players ù CCP's role is only to tweak those limits. In fact, you'll notice that they have a strict policy of not create ISK with a flick of the wrist.
If you can't see the difference between "CCP spawns ISK out of nowhere" and "game mechanics spawn ISK under of a select few, controlled circumstances", you need to sit down and figure out how the game actually works, because you are, in a word, clueless.
Quote: Don't Arbalest Heavy Missle Launchers, Navy Ravens, Standard implants and yes ..even the mundane little veldespar ores also apear "pop" out of no-where?
No. Not out of nowhere ù they pop out randomly or based on pre-define, limited mechanics that restrict their availability.
(edit: Sorry to make your quote "wrong" nullity, a stray italic-tag required umpteen edits to findà ) ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Nullity
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.10.08 11:28:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Nullity on 08/10/2010 11:29:26 Edited by: Nullity on 08/10/2010 11:28:57
Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 08/10/2010 11:26:52
Originally by: Diomedes Calypso You 100% buy isk directly fomr CCP.
No. You buy ISK that other players have extracted from the game using the existing mechanics that have various limitations and balancing features built in.
This is 100% different from buying "directly from CCP", whereby said limitations and balance mechanics would be bypassed.
Quote: All isk is created by CCP (infinite amounts availble with a flick of their wrists).
Incorrect. All ISK is created through limited mechanics by players ù CCP's role is only to tweak those limits. In fact, you'll notice that they have a strict policy of [ı]not[/i] create ISK with a flick of the wrist.
If you can't see the difference between "CCP spawns ISK out of nowhere" and "game mechanics spawn ISK under of a select few, controlled circumstances", you need to sit down and figure out how the game actually works, because you are, in a word, clueless.
Quote: Don't Arbalest Heavy Missle Launchers, Navy Ravens, Standard implants and yes ..even the mundane little veldespar ores also apear "pop" out of no-where?
No. Not out of nowhere ù they pop out randomly or based on pre-defined, limited mechanics.
It's good to see that other people understand this distinction, as it's the crux of the MT problem for me. I don't want CCP spawning items into the game for me because I gave them extra money. I don't care if those items are remap credits, SPs, or ISK. I can sort of tolerate vanity items, but I frankly don't trust CCP to restrict themselves to just vanity items, and I feel even those should be player created only.
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Chesty McJubblies
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2010.10.08 11:40:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Orion GUardian
Originally by: Chesty McJubblies
Originally by: Orion GUardian Damn, fix the forum already, I wrote a nice 4000 characters post and damn forum said "login again" and everythings gone....
lol, look at you.
Yeah point and laugh, thats life ^^
lol, seriously though, if you use Firefox you can always go back a page, and you're stuff should still be there. I got sick of IE not storing my text, too. Suggestion: Remove the "new topic" button from everywhere apart from the list of topics section within a subforum.
That'd save those with chronic hand/eye coordination some face. |
Lexxxii
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Posted - 2010.10.08 11:41:00 -
[30]
So, is this
1. A suggestion put forward by some player 2. A confirmed plan from CCP 3. Some rumour that someone started
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