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Yakia TovilToba Halliburton Inc.	Posted - 2010.10.08 09:31:00 - [1] I can't believe there is so much whining about this. For years you can buy isk with money (via ETC, now via PLEX), that has a direct impact on the gameplay. Alliances that lost their capital fleets bought new ones and turned the tables with RL-Cash. No one complained. Now you can remap for 15 $ more than once a year. It has no direct impact on the game, the vets are training with 2772 SP/hour anyways if they like. And anyone with RL-Cash can buy his way to win by buying a high SP character, indefinite ship replacement or faction gear. Yet they whine about the remapping option. How incredibly dumb must one be to complain about this feature ? Most of the MMOs I played (and that are quite a few) now have one or the other kind of microtransaction (it's a clear trend in the MMO industry) and often it gives you direct advantage over your fellow players, like special heal portions that don't stack with regular potions or gear with better stats etc. CCP is doing something completely harmless in this respect, yet there are ******s to whine about it, WTF has happened to this community ?
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Circle-Of-Two	Posted - 2010.10.08 09:34:00 - [2] Its always been like this
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.10.08 09:38:00 - [3] àand you don't see the difference between the things you describe? ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Illwill Bill Svea Rike Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2010.10.08 09:38:00 - [4] The difference between RMT and microtransactions is that MT's are at a set price, while RMT prices are based on supply/demand. When it comes to MT's, CCP will have a monopoly. Originally by: Stitcher For frak's sake, it took millions of years of evolution for that brain to get inside your skull, would it kill you to actually USE the damned thing?
Intense Thinker Minmatar	Posted - 2010.10.08 09:39:00 - [5] FFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUU Microtransactions!!!! Signature locked for editing a moderator's warning. Zymurgist
Diomedes Calypso	Posted - 2010.10.08 09:43:00 - [6] As long as there is a RMT with or without CCP involved pretty much everything in the game of value is availbe for a "micro transaction". .. Its been that way all along. The harder CCP would try to crack down the higher the potential profit for isk sellers would be...if it got to a few $ an hour you'd have college students ratting for beer money selling isk to fellow students with rich parents ... its a reality. The only real way around it would to get rid of the free flowing economy.... force people to do missions to get ship or ammo or implants etc drop that would "bind on contact" ...basically be untransferable . I think a large percentage of people play the game for the industrial and economic aspect of it and many pure pvpers would go nuts if they had to do missions for each ship , instead of other ways they might earn isk. That would change the game seriously and I really think that huge perecntages of people would lose interest or never gain interest if the game if it wre all about the lame pve thats here. Basically if you have a free in game economy you're bound to have a sutuation where people can get any game item with real $
Orion GUardian Caldari	Posted - 2010.10.08 09:43:00 - [7] Problem is not the thing itself, but what might follow. Eve started as a "different than all the others" game bakc in 2003 and such attracted players who did want to play a different kind of game. When WOW and Clones came out at some point it became fashion "let the players pay more so they get some ingame stuff for real money" Eve didn't do that, Selling Gametime for ISK was their way to discourage RMT. But now with introduction of ANOTHER Realmoney for ingame feature they pave the way for more stuff. Let it be "New Portrait for PLEX" next, "Different colors for your ship for PLEX", "larger ignorelist for PLEX" etc. and you come to "New T2 ship for PLEX" thats at least what everyone who complains is fearing. That eve becomes a "either you pay more money or you wont be competetive anymore" same reason why we hate the idea of "SP for PLEX" because we HATE the idea that people thata re successful in Real life are AUTOMATICALLY better of in a game as well. even if there already IS the PLEX -> ISK way for rich people to get ingame money. ISK is so easy to earn ingame that it doesn't make much of a difference and it helps other players to play without spending money. Dont see the feature, see what might follow. I dont want to play a game where you have to pay money IN ADDITION to the subscription fee to remain competetive. because that would lead "free expansions" ad absurdum.
Serpents smile	Posted - 2010.10.08 09:45:00 - [8] It starts with something harmless. Some of us just are worried where it will lead to.
Jennifer Starling	Posted - 2010.10.08 09:45:00 - [9] Originally by: Orion GUardian When WOW and Clones came out at some point it became fashion "let the players pay more so they get some ingame stuff for real money" You mean expansion packs or .. ?
Diomedes Calypso	Posted - 2010.10.08 09:50:00 - [10] Originally by: Illwill Bill The difference between RMT and microtransactions is that MT's are at a set price, while RMT prices are based on supply/demand. When it comes to MT's, CCP will have a monopoly. CCP has a monopoly on Arbalest Heavy Missle Launchers and Ocular Implant - Standars too. Only they can make them. After they aremagically created and dropped into space or doled from an NPC to players, the players are free to sell them to other players for isk. ISK is purchasable for real $ ...either legitimately from CCP via the plex sale or from ways outside the Eula.

Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.10.08 09:54:00 - [11] Originally by: Diomedes Calypso ISK is purchasable for real $ ...either legitimately from CCP via the plex sale or from ways outside the Eula. No. You never buy ISK from CCP ù that's the whole point. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Illwill Bill Svea Rike Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2010.10.08 09:54:00 - [12] Edited by: Illwill Bill on 08/10/2010 09:56:33 Originally by: Diomedes Calypso CCP has a monopoly on Arbalest Heavy Missle Launchers and Ocular Implant - Standars too. Only they can make them. After they aremagically created and dropped into space or doled from an NPC to players, the players are free to sell them to other players for isk. That's true, but your analogy is a failure. Arbalest launchers can be traded on the market. A cosmetic improvement to your avatar, bought with microtransactions, cannot. An arbalest can be dropped while playing. The means with wich you complete microtransactions are not. Originally by: Stitcher For frak's sake, it took millions of years of evolution for that brain to get inside your skull, would it kill you to actually USE the damned thing?
Diomedes Calypso	Posted - 2010.10.08 10:11:00 - [13] Originally by: Orion GUardian Problem is not the thing itself, but what might follow. Eve started as a "different than all the others" game bakc in 2003 and such attracted players who did want to play a different kind of game. When WOW and Clones came out at some point it became fashion "let the players pay more so they get some ingame stuff for real money" Eve didn't do that, Selling Gametime for ISK was their way to discourage RMT. But now with introduction of ANOTHER Realmoney for ingame feature they pave the way for more stuff. Let it be "New Portrait for PLEX" next, "Different colors for your ship for PLEX", "larger ignorelist for PLEX" etc. and you come to "New T2 ship for PLEX" thats at least what everyone who complains is fearing. That eve becomes a "either you pay more money or you wont be competetive anymore" same reason why we hate the idea of "SP for PLEX" because we HATE the idea that people thata re successful in Real life are AUTOMATICALLY better of in a game as well. even if there already IS the PLEX -> ISK way for rich people to get ingame money. ISK is so easy to earn ingame that it doesn't make much of a difference and it helps other players to play without spending money. Dont see the feature, see what might follow. I dont want to play a game where you have to pay money IN ADDITION to the subscription fee to remain competetive. because that would lead "free expansions" ad absurdum. I see where youÆre trying to go here but hereÆs where I think youÆre mixing apples and oranges: The remap proposed is entirely available through game play. If you pvp much, even if you survive 95 % the time but enjoying fighting enough to engage youÆre going to lose a few hundred million of ships a month and maybe the same in implants à The most expensive attribute implants,, the plus 5s go in the vicinity of 200 million each.. a pair is about equivalent to the cost of a plex and a plex/350 million isk are pretty much the same thingàone is immediately transferable to the other less a few percent market friction. The real question to me is, does it make sense to have a way for players to have a way to get a remap sooner than 12 months at a cost the same way theyÆd buy implants or a ship ? I think it would be good to have a way to get a remap sooner than 12 monthsà.but I do think it should have a costà.for the same reason you donÆt hand out free ships or ammo or have every player have the same skills from day one. Having a remap cost a similar amount to a pair of +5s seems in scale to me. Now, one class of thing you bring up is a problem in itself. There is a real difference between a player needing to purchase and implant/remap from an NPC and a player being forced to use in game assets to have a larger block list to avoid spam. But T2 ships? They are currently availbe for plex.. in fact half the pvpers I know buy a portion of their combat ships with plexà the half of the players who donÆt really enjoy industry and the game economy. Well, I guess there are a few pvp players who will admit to enjoying ratting or comlexes and they might also avoid using plex to buy their ships.
Tiger's Spirit Caldari	Posted - 2010.10.08 10:12:00 - [14] Edited by: Tiger''s Spirit on 08/10/2010 10:13:44 Edited by: Tiger''s Spirit on 08/10/2010 10:13:16 Originally by: Yakia TovilToba I can't believe there is so much whining about this. For years you can buy isk with money (via ETC, now via PLEX), that has a direct impact on the gameplay. Alliances that lost their capital fleets bought new ones and turned the tables with RL-Cash. No one complained. Now you can remap for 15 $ more than once a year. It has no direct impact on the game, the vets are training with 2772 SP/hour anyways if they like. And anyone with RL-Cash can buy his way to win by buying a high SP character, indefinite ship replacement or faction gear. Yet they whine about the remapping option. How incredibly dumb must one be to complain about this feature ? Most of the MMOs I played (and that are quite a few) now have one or the other kind of microtransaction (it's a clear trend in the MMO industry) and often it gives you direct advantage over your fellow players, like special heal portions that don't stack with regular potions or gear with better stats etc. CCP is doing something completely harmless in this respect, yet there are ******s to whine about it, WTF has happened to this community ? I think the remap for money not too dangerous. When they will create double learning speed for money or same thing, that's will be dangerous.
Serpents smile	Posted - 2010.10.08 10:28:00 - [15] Originally by: Diomedes Calypso But T2 ships? They are currently availbe for plex.. in fact half the pvpers I know buy a portion of their combat ships with plexà Those t2 ships are made by players in game with in game tools and in game minerals. If you can buy them like the remap they appear out of nowhere, poof t2 ship. Get it?
Diomedes Calypso	Posted - 2010.10.08 10:34:00 - [16] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Diomedes Calypso ISK is purchasable for real $ ...either legitimately from CCP via the plex sale or from ways outside the Eula. No. You never buy ISK from CCP ù that's the whole point. You 100% buy isk directly fomr CCP. The whole idea that you buy the isk from players is a marketing ruse (one that pulls the wool over so many peoples eyes evidently) All isk is created by CCP (infinite amounts availble with a flick of their wrists). All game time is created by CCP (for a larger real $ cost.. each incremental hour of game time played bears a cost in terms of extra server and customer service load even if you left the overhead asside). CCP uses some smoke and mirrors to create the perception that by giving free game time to people parting with their isk, in direct proprtion to player selling a certain chit, that somehow playersr have created something of value. The can do the coi little "moi?" when accused of selling isk where anyone can see the quid pro quo
Diomedes Calypso	Posted - 2010.10.08 10:41:00 - [17] Originally by: Serpents smile Originally by: Diomedes Calypso But T2 ships? They are currently availbe for plex.. in fact half the pvpers I know buy a portion of their combat ships with plexà Those t2 ships are made by players in game with in game tools and in game minerals. If you can buy them like the remap they appear out of nowhere, poof t2 ship. Get it? Don't Arbalest Heavy Missle Launchers, Navy Ravens, Standard implants and yes ..even the mundane little veldespar ores also apear "pop" out of no-where? I spend my time trading to buy stuff...which means providing liquidity to markets, and often in my case spending the time and effort to bring goods to places where people will gladly pay a premium price instead of making 6 or 7 jumps to save 3 or 4 million isk. That effort is every bit as legitimate creation as shooting a rat and having Isk flow into your wallet and random items scattered in their wrecks.
Jennifer Starling	Posted - 2010.10.08 10:43:00 - [18] My reasoning is simple: remaps for ISK > remaps for Plex > no remaps at all Grinding 350 m isn't that impossible, and if CCP gets more RL ISK (icelandic crowns) in the process then sure why not ..
Orion GUardian Caldari	Posted - 2010.10.08 10:47:00 - [19] Damn, fix the forum already, I wrote a nice 4000 characters post and damn forum said "login again" and everythings gone.... Long story short: No I did NOT mean "Expansion sets" I meant "WoW Clones" MMORPGs that sue the same concept in a similar or different setting. That is: Grind XP, grind equippment and PvP being reliand on XP and equippment on sharded servers. Every Expesion is better equippment and more levels so you have to grind again. And the other thing I wrote: People are jealous of wealthy people in Real life. They dislike it that people with money have far superior living conditions (nicer car, nicer house, nicer holidays, faster internet, hotter wife) and they DO NOT WANT to extend that into their hobby. If a rich guy buys a character and ISK per PLEX they can at leats say "that kind of cheating, so it doesn't count. But if there are 100 features to enhance your character with PLEX than you can't say that anymore. In EvE every new char is created equal and only time and hard work could make some better than others. but if it continues like it seems, there may be a kind of "Animal Farm" situation when some are "more equal". Because if one guy spend 100$ on his new character to get a nicer noobship, free ISK, free SP and a blowjob and thats why he is superior to another new char its not a kind of game I want to play. (ok I cut alot of stuff so bear with it) I think we wont get MT for Ships or SP or so in the near future, perhaps in the far future but I'd hate that as well. What I think we WILL get as soon as its possible is Incarna being a "Second Life Clone". "If you want the lates fashion on your character: Use PLEX" THAT is what I suspect will happen in any case.
0oO0oOoOo0o	Posted - 2010.10.08 10:47:00 - [20] Originally by: Illwill Bill The difference between RMT and microtransactions is that MT's are at a set price, while RMT prices are based on supply/demand. When it comes to MT's, CCP will have a monopoly. plex are issue to supply/demand as well. i'll by my remaps for isk. and the remap rumour made the plex price go up from under 320 to over 360 mil instantly. you buy the remap for plex, not direct money. a plex is not different from other ingame items. instead of buying a shiny t2 ship and "owning" someone in game, you buy a remap and continue to fly your cheap t1 ship. doesn't sound like an unfair advantage to me.

Orion GUardian Caldari	Posted - 2010.10.08 10:52:00 - [21] PS: THIS is an issue I'd really like some Feedback from CCP about. I bet Torfi is already regretting having said that in his interview. And I say it again: The problem is NOT the issue at hand BUT what might follow. (I could give a nice example from the timeframe 1933-1939 in my homecountry but I wont) Its not even said that it MIGHT lead to the following "Today PLEX for remap tomorrow PLEX for +5% to Turretdmg for one Month" but the indication that it COULD is enough for a ragestorm because deep down we do NOT want Eve online to become a capitalistic Monster where Real Life money gives you a real advantage. (Having billions of ISK for PLEX is no advantage really, they are spend as fast as they are aquired and only prevent you from having to earn ISK yourself.)
Chesty McJubblies Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2010.10.08 10:58:00 - [22] Originally by: Orion GUardian Damn, fix the forum already, I wrote a nice 4000 characters post and damn forum said "login again" and everythings gone.... lol, look at you. Suggestion: Remove the "new topic" button from everywhere apart from the list of topics section within a subforum. That'd save those with chronic hand/eye coordination some face.
Orion GUardian Caldari	Posted - 2010.10.08 11:03:00 - [23] Originally by: Chesty McJubblies Originally by: Orion GUardian Damn, fix the forum already, I wrote a nice 4000 characters post and damn forum said "login again" and everythings gone.... lol, look at you. Yeah point and laugh, thats life ^^
Illwill Bill Svea Rike Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2010.10.08 11:06:00 - [24] Originally by: 0oO0oOoOo0o plex are issue to supply/demand as well. i'll by my remaps for isk. and the remap rumour made the plex price go up from under 320 to over 360 mil instantly. you buy the remap for plex, not direct money. a plex is not different from other ingame items. instead of buying a shiny t2 ship and "owning" someone in game, you buy a remap and continue to fly your cheap t1 ship. doesn't sound like an unfair advantage to me. If the rate between Plex/remap was subjected to supply/demand, then I wouldn't be bothered. The problem is that CCP is creating an artificial value of the plex. Personally, I think that the problem that there are too many plexes and too few buyers. Considering how the market in Jita looks (and I realize this is not completely accurate data), I'd say there is a surplus of PLEX'es on the market. This is obviously a problem, as this will in the long run mean that the PLEX price will go down. This means that the USD/ISK exchange rate will be bad when compared to less EULA-compliant competitors, which is the main reason for PLEX to exist in the first place. I can see why there is a need to keep the PLEX prices up (Plex for <insert third-world country with recent natural disaster here> and remaps for plex), but seriously, isn't there another ISK sink that would be less offensive to old dinousaurs like Yours truly? Originally by: Stitcher For frak's sake, it took millions of years of evolution for that brain to get inside your skull, would it kill you to actually USE the damned thing?
betoli	Posted - 2010.10.08 11:12:00 - [25] Originally by: 0oO0oOoOo0o plex are issue to supply/demand as well. ... but not an in game supply/demand - the supply is from outside the game. That is the problem. That some players want to fly expensive ships, lose them frequently, and NOT MAKE ENOUGH ISK IS IN-GAME TO COVER THEIR COSTS have some kind of right to bring in isk from outside the game universe to allow them to do that... well... cheating? I can see merit in people being rewarded with game time, if they spend sufficiently large amounts of time playing successfully that they have spare isk.. I can see merit in rewarding people for being good at the game (remaps for LP or or for PVP kills?) Any method of ISK coming into the game universe without an in-game achievement to go with it should be eradicated. It simply leads to a credit card competition.
Illwill Bill Svea Rike Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2010.10.08 11:15:00 - [26] Quote: remaps for LP Actually, I like that idea. A lot. Originally by: Stitcher For frak's sake, it took millions of years of evolution for that brain to get inside your skull, would it kill you to actually USE the damned thing?
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.10.08 11:25:00 - [27] Edited by: Tippia on 08/10/2010 11:30:35 Originally by: Diomedes Calypso You 100% buy isk directly fomr CCP. No. You buy ISK that other players have extracted from the game using the existing mechanics that have various limitations and balancing features built in. This is 100% different from buying "directly from CCP", whereby said limitations and balance mechanics would be bypassed. Quote: All isk is created by CCP (infinite amounts availble with a flick of their wrists). Incorrect. All ISK is created through limited mechanics by players ù CCP's role is only to tweak those limits. In fact, you'll notice that they have a strict policy of not create ISK with a flick of the wrist. If you can't see the difference between "CCP spawns ISK out of nowhere" and "game mechanics spawn ISK under of a select few, controlled circumstances", you need to sit down and figure out how the game actually works, because you are, in a word, clueless. Quote: Don't Arbalest Heavy Missle Launchers, Navy Ravens, Standard implants and yes ..even the mundane little veldespar ores also apear "pop" out of no-where? No. Not out of nowhere ù they pop out randomly or based on pre-define, limited mechanics that restrict their availability. (edit: Sorry to make your quote "wrong" nullity, a stray italic-tag required umpteen edits to findà ) ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Nullity Gallente	Posted - 2010.10.08 11:28:00 - [28] Edited by: Nullity on 08/10/2010 11:29:26 Edited by: Nullity on 08/10/2010 11:28:57 Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 08/10/2010 11:26:52 Originally by: Diomedes Calypso You 100% buy isk directly fomr CCP. No. You buy ISK that other players have extracted from the game using the existing mechanics that have various limitations and balancing features built in. This is 100% different from buying "directly from CCP", whereby said limitations and balance mechanics would be bypassed. Quote: All isk is created by CCP (infinite amounts availble with a flick of their wrists). Incorrect. All ISK is created through limited mechanics by players ù CCP's role is only to tweak those limits. In fact, you'll notice that they have a strict policy of [ı]not[/i] create ISK with a flick of the wrist. If you can't see the difference between "CCP spawns ISK out of nowhere" and "game mechanics spawn ISK under of a select few, controlled circumstances", you need to sit down and figure out how the game actually works, because you are, in a word, clueless. Quote: Don't Arbalest Heavy Missle Launchers, Navy Ravens, Standard implants and yes ..even the mundane little veldespar ores also apear "pop" out of no-where? No. Not out of nowhere ù they pop out randomly or based on pre-defined, limited mechanics. It's good to see that other people understand this distinction, as it's the crux of the MT problem for me. I don't want CCP spawning items into the game for me because I gave them extra money. I don't care if those items are remap credits, SPs, or ISK. I can sort of tolerate vanity items, but I frankly don't trust CCP to restrict themselves to just vanity items, and I feel even those should be player created only.
Chesty McJubblies Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2010.10.08 11:40:00 - [29] Originally by: Orion GUardian Originally by: Chesty McJubblies Originally by: Orion GUardian Damn, fix the forum already, I wrote a nice 4000 characters post and damn forum said "login again" and everythings gone.... lol, look at you. Yeah point and laugh, thats life ^^ lol, seriously though, if you use Firefox you can always go back a page, and you're stuff should still be there. I got sick of IE not storing my text, too. Suggestion: Remove the "new topic" button from everywhere apart from the list of topics section within a subforum. That'd save those with chronic hand/eye coordination some face.
Lexxxii	Posted - 2010.10.08 11:41:00 - [30] So, is this 1. A suggestion put forward by some player 2. A confirmed plan from CCP 3. Some rumour that someone started

Mocam	Posted - 2010.10.08 11:41:00 - [31] It deals with degrees of toxicity. Some have higher tolerances than others do. Think of it like you would booze. A shot can work to take the edge off. A pint tends to be a bit much for most and drinking a full fifth/liter usually ends up with someone puking their guts out or worse. It's personal tolerance we're looking at and where the whines are coming from. A funny thing I don't see talked about is the "cosmetics" aspect of the conversation. Where in EVE do you see cosmetics right now? ... So all these microtransaction concerns... First they'll have to put cosmetic effects in the game -- that will take development time and effort. Then those cosmetics will need to be seen as valuable by the community -- that's refocusing where the community finds value in the game. So a good deal will need to change to get microtransactions for cosmetics instituted in EVE and the dev/focus shift is liable to be a tad annoying to those that would prefer to see functional aspects of the game improved instead of haircuts, tattoo reworking, shoes and home furnishings. If it takes too long, don't be overly surprised if other more functional changes are implemented while they wait for the store to be setup for cosmetics. Big deal. Keep an eye on the changes and see what comes down the pipe. Hopefully it won't be a sewer outlet.
Alt FTW	Posted - 2010.10.08 11:42:00 - [32] Originally by: Yakia TovilToba Yet they whine about the remapping option. How incredibly dumb must one be to complain about this feature ? [incoherent stuff] There are ******s to whine about it, WTF has happened to this community ? Nice. Stay classy. Why does disagreeing with others (about a space-game, for heaven's sake!) so often lead to insults? The anonymity of the interwebs does truly scary things to people like the OP.
Nullity Gallente	Posted - 2010.10.08 11:43:00 - [33] Originally by: Lexxxii So, is this 1. A suggestion put forward by some player 2. A confirmed plan from CCP 3. Some rumour that someone started CCP has stated that 1) Remaps will be available for real life cash (PLEXes) in Incursion. Remaps are already purchasable on Singularity using PLEXes. 2) "Vanity items" will also be available using real life cash (PLEXes).
Illwill Bill Svea Rike Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2010.10.08 11:55:00 - [34] Originally by: Nullity CCP has stated that 1) Remaps will be available for real life cash (PLEXes) in Incursion. Remaps are already purchasable on Singularity using PLEXes. 2) "Vanity items" will also be available using real life cash (PLEXes). Correction, CCP (T0rfi) has stated that they are looking into MT's and that they are introducing plex for remaps. Originally by: Eurogame article Eurogamer: Business models in MMOs are changing. Are there any plans to use micro-transactions in EVE to allow people to re-map their skills? Torfi Frans Olafsson: Yeah, we are looking at introducing virtual goods within the game, but we feel those things should be vanity items rather than those that give you a clear benefit over other players in-game. That said, we are introducing a feature this expansion [Incursion], that does allow you to re-map your attributes using Pilot Licence Extensions, which are bought both in-game and on our website. PLEX represents 30-days subscription within the game. We will evolve just like everyone else. We will certainly not become a dinosaur. That has not been our style Originally by: Stitcher For frak's sake, it took millions of years of evolution for that brain to get inside your skull, would it kill you to actually USE the damned thing?
Nullity Gallente	Posted - 2010.10.08 11:56:00 - [35] Originally by: Illwill Bill Originally by: Nullity CCP has stated that 1) Remaps will be available for real life cash (PLEXes) in Incursion. Remaps are already purchasable on Singularity using PLEXes. 2) "Vanity items" will also be available using real life cash (PLEXes). Correction, CCP (T0rfi) has stated that they are looking into MT's and that they are introducing plex for remaps. Originally by: Eurogame article Eurogamer: Business models in MMOs are changing. Are there any plans to use micro-transactions in EVE to allow people to re-map their skills? Torfi Frans Olafsson: Yeah, we are looking at introducing virtual goods within the game, but we feel those things should be vanity items rather than those that give you a clear benefit over other players in-game. That said, we are introducing a feature this expansion [Incursion], that does allow you to re-map your attributes using Pilot Licence Extensions, which are bought both in-game and on our website. PLEX represents 30-days subscription within the game. We will evolve just like everyone else. We will certainly not become a dinosaur. That has not been our style True, they might not come out and say that they're bringing in vanity MTs, but you can pretty much assume that's the next step now.
CyberGh0st Minmatar Blue Republic	Posted - 2010.10.08 12:33:00 - [36] Edited by: CyberGh0st on 08/10/2010 12:34:24 Originally by: Nullity It's good to see that other people understand this distinction, as it's the crux of the MT problem for me. I don't want CCP spawning items into the game for me because I gave them extra money. I don't care if those items are remap credits, SPs, or ISK. I can sort of tolerate vanity items, but I frankly don't trust CCP to restrict themselves to just vanity items, and I feel even those should be player created only. Even if the microtransactions are only for the vanity items, it sucks hard, I mean in SWG we used to create so much fluff, there was a whole economy around it. I thought Incarna would be about something like that, like if you want to change your face, you take surgery from a docter in a station, or if you want a tattoo, you go to a tattoo shop. Or if you want to give your ship a different color you go to the garage inside a station, thus everything by the players for the players. But all of this is probably out of the question now, because people will use microtransactions for that. http://www.mmodata.net Favorite MMO's : DAoC Pre-TOA-NF / SWG Pre-CU-NGE
Herrring Amarr Space Pinatas Co.	Posted - 2010.10.08 12:35:00 - [37] I bought a battle ship by selling plexes that i bought from ccp last year. Does this count?
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.10.08 12:50:00 - [38] Originally by: Herrring I bought a battle ship by selling plexes that i bought from ccp last year. Does this count? No. That battleship was produced in accordance with the in-game balancing mechanics that limit the availability of battleships, and using the industry and market gameplay that sits at the very core of the game. That's quite different from buying the battleship from CCP and thus bypassing the whole industry and trading part. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
My Postman	Posted - 2010.10.08 12:52:00 - [39] I stopped reading the OP when saying "giving direct advantage...bla bla" And you think this is a good thing? You got an advantage because you spent Ç 10 and the other guy did¦nt (could not afford it)? That is why the comm is at rage lvl 1050. Nobody wants this s***. Stop posting. Get a clue.
Cupio Mortem	Posted - 2010.10.08 12:55:00 - [40] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Herrring I bought a battle ship by selling plexes that i bought from ccp last year. Does this count? No. That battleship was produced in accordance with the in-game balancing mechanics that limit the availability of battleships, and using the industry and market gameplay that sits at the very core of the game. That's quite different from buying the battleship from CCP and thus bypassing the whole industry and trading part. Keep pushing your head up your ass and eventually you might see out of your own mouth. This is most obviously your goal...

Illwill Bill Svea Rike Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2010.10.08 12:57:00 - [41] Same as RMT, yes, but it is not the same as microtransactions. You bought an item that can be converted into game time from CCP. This item was the sold by you to another player by the use of market forces. The ISK you got from selling this item was then used to purchase another in-game item. When buying an item in through microtransactions, you buy that item at a fixed price. This by-passes in-game market forces and sets a fixed price for the item in question. As the supply is usually unlimited when dealing with MT's, the market for that item, or related items, is destroyed. Originally by: Stitcher For frak's sake, it took millions of years of evolution for that brain to get inside your skull, would it kill you to actually USE the damned thing?
Orion GUardian Caldari	Posted - 2010.10.08 12:59:00 - [42] Originally by: My Postman I stopped reading the OP when saying "giving direct advantage...bla bla" And you think this is a good thing? You got an advantage because you spent Ç 10 and the other guy did¦nt (could not afford it)? That is why the comm is at rage lvl 1050. Nobody wants this s***. Stop posting. Get a clue. My Point really... @Cupio: She IS right though
Cupio Mortem	Posted - 2010.10.08 13:00:00 - [43] Originally by: Illwill Bill Same as RMT, yes, but it is not the same as microtransactions. You bought an item that can be converted into game time from CCP. This item was the sold by you to another player by the use of market forces. The ISK you got from selling this item was then used to purchase another in-game item. When buying an item in through microtransactions, you buy that item at a fixed price. This by-passes in-game market forces and sets a fixed price for the item in question. As the supply is usually unlimited when dealing with MT's, the market for that item, or related items, is destroyed. Isk is property of CCP. Regardless what toon holds it, how it came to be, how many hands your virtual dollars passed through, it is CCP's intellectual property. People are acting like ISK is somehow their actual posession, when it's just not. CCP owns isk, CCP owns PLEX, CCP gets paid for PLEX and the isk CCP has available in Eve then becomes purchased via resellers of PLEX. It's a microtransaction masked as RMT to make the elite douchetaco's feel somehow superior to other MMO's. It works, too well.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.10.08 13:01:00 - [44] Edited by: Tippia on 08/10/2010 13:06:32 Originally by: Cupio Mortem Keep pushing your head up your ass and eventually you might see out of your own mouth. This is most obviously your goal... So you actually agree, then, seeing as how you can't think of a single counter-argument and instead have to attack the person. Good. Quote: Isk is property of CCP. Regardless what toon holds it, how it came to be, how many hands your virtual dollars passed through, it is CCP's intellectual property. People are acting like ISK is somehow their actual posession, when it's just not. CCP owns isk, CCP owns PLEX, CCP gets paid for PLEX and the isk CCP has available in Eve then becomes purchased via resellers of PLEX. You're missing the point: it doesn't matter who owns it ù what matters is how it's created. MT kills the in-game market dead, because it completely bypasses it; the RMT way still uses aaaaall the mechanics, and the limits and balances that come with them. The PLEX →à→ item route is not a microtransaction because the game imposes limits on availability. It doesn't matter how much $$$áyou sink into it ù if the item currently cannot be had in the game, you can't get it; under an MT scheme, one would spawn for you immediately. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Cupio Mortem	Posted - 2010.10.08 13:04:00 - [45] Has anyone thought that CCP owned toons themselves could be purchasing PLEX off the market with artifically injected isk? What happens to the argument it's not a microtransaction if this very real possibility is true, exactly?
Cupio Mortem	Posted - 2010.10.08 13:06:00 - [46] Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 08/10/2010 13:04:22 Originally by: Cupio Mortem Keep pushing your head up your ass and eventually you might see out of your own mouth. This is most obviously your goal... So you actually agree, then, seeing as how you can't think of a single counter-argument and instead have to attack the person. Good. By not specifying what I agreed with, you've managed to agree your head is near toncil-level up your own ass. Good.
Illwill Bill Svea Rike Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2010.10.08 13:14:00 - [47] Originally by: Cupio Mortem Isk is property of CCP. Regardless what toon holds it, how it came to be, how many hands your virtual dollars passed through, it is CCP's intellectual property. People are acting like ISK is somehow their actual posession, when it's just not. CCP owns isk, CCP owns PLEX, CCP gets paid for PLEX and the isk CCP has available in Eve then becomes purchased via resellers of PLEX. It's a microtransaction masked as RMT to make the elite douchetaco's feel somehow superior to other MMO's. It works, too well. Absolutely! The ownership of the in-game bits and zeroes is not disputed here. What we are discussing here are the potential implications of the in-game market if CCP decides to sell non-vanity items and thereby bypass the market forces. Originally by: Stitcher For frak's sake, it took millions of years of evolution for that brain to get inside your skull, would it kill you to actually USE the damned thing?
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.10.08 13:15:00 - [48] Originally by: Cupio Mortem By not specifying what I agreed with, you've managed to agree your head is near toncil-level up your own ass. You didn't argue anything, so the only possible conclusion is that you agree with everything I said. That's (generally) swell and all, but your debating style is lacking so I would rather you kept quiet, because you risk hurting my side of the argument by mere association. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Cupio Mortem	Posted - 2010.10.08 13:19:00 - [49] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Cupio Mortem By not specifying what I agreed with, you've managed to agree your head is near toncil-level up your own ass. You didn't argue anything, so the only possible conclusion is that you agree with everything I said. That's (generally) swell and all, but your debating style is lacking so I would rather you kept quiet, because you risk hurting my side of the argument by mere association. Thats funny, Logic and Facts have the same effect. Is your last name Palin or O'Donnell?
Cupio Mortem	Posted - 2010.10.08 13:22:00 - [50] Edited by: Cupio Mortem on 08/10/2010 13:23:05 Originally by: Illwill Bill Absolutely! The ownership of the in-game bits and zeroes is not disputed here. What we are discussing here are the potential implications of the in-game market if CCP decides to sell non-vanity items and thereby bypass the market forces. Well, while we're at it, let's also discuss if CCP decides to allow Isk for co¬aine shipment type transactions. It has every bit as much of a foundation in reality as the current argument being posed. For the record, I'm ALL FOR IT!

Illwill Bill Svea Rike Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2010.10.08 13:25:00 - [51] Originally by: Cupio Mortem Well, while we're at it, let's also discuss if CCP decides to allow Isk for co¬aine shipment type transactions. It has every bit as much of a foundation in reality as the current argument being posed. For the record, I'm ALL FOR IT! From a statistical point of view, there is a far greater possibility of CCP selling in-game items for cash, than there is for CCP trading in-game currency for substances that are illegal in most parts of the World. Let's try to keep things on a somewhat realistic level. Originally by: Stitcher For frak's sake, it took millions of years of evolution for that brain to get inside your skull, would it kill you to actually USE the damned thing?
Cupio Mortem	Posted - 2010.10.08 13:27:00 - [52] Edited by: Cupio Mortem on 08/10/2010 13:28:19 Originally by: Illwill Bill Originally by: Cupio Mortem Well, while we're at it, let's also discuss if CCP decides to allow Isk for co¬aine shipment type transactions. It has every bit as much of a foundation in reality as the current argument being posed. For the record, I'm ALL FOR IT! From a statistical point of view, there is a far greater possibility of CCP selling in-game items for cash, than there is for CCP trading in-game currency for substances that are illegal in most parts of the World. Let's try to keep things on a somewhat realistic level. CCP is also the antichrist, did you know that? Jesus used to be a programmer but then they showed him the door when he designed a shuttle with 3 low slots. These facts could be true, every bit as true as the argument currently happening. Edit: Thank you, though, for confirming the fact you people will ****ing argue ANY POINT at all.
Illwill Bill Svea Rike Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2010.10.08 13:32:00 - [53] While you, apparently, will refuse a sensible discussion. Please counter my arguments instead of filling the forums with pointless personal attacks. Originally by: Stitcher For frak's sake, it took millions of years of evolution for that brain to get inside your skull, would it kill you to actually USE the damned thing?
Cupio Mortem	Posted - 2010.10.08 13:34:00 - [54] Originally by: Illwill Bill While you, apparently, will refuse a sensible discussion. Please counter my arguments instead of filling the forums with pointless personal attacks. Sorry, Jesus.
Dankiss	Posted - 2010.10.08 13:59:00 - [55] I am poor and unemployed and wish I had RL money to throw around to max my skill training. I frown upon remaps for plex and will quit eve if it goes any further. It is very different from PLEX for money because in any game you will have isk farmers and sellers so CCP trying to take the profiteering away from the anonymous farmer is fine, imo. Hope CCP changes its mind.
Jennifer Starling	Posted - 2010.10.08 14:01:00 - [56] Originally by: Dankiss I am poor and unemployed and wish I had RL money to throw around to max my skill training. I frown upon remaps for plex and will quit eve if it goes any further. It is very different from PLEX for money because in any game you will have isk farmers and sellers so CCP trying to take the profiteering away from the anonymous farmer is fine, imo. Hope CCP changes its mind. Tip: you can farm ISK for a plex and then remap!
Mehrune Khan Amarr	Posted - 2010.10.08 14:09:00 - [57] Originally by: Nullity CCP has stated that 1) Remaps will be available for real life cash (PLEXes) in Incursion. Remaps are already purchasable on Singularity using PLEXes. 2) "Vanity items" will also be available using real life cash (PLEXes). So some dev at CCP saw how much Sony is making off of Playstation Home, huh? I laugh every time I go on there and see people running around with 5, 10, 20 dollar avatars. I briefly considered buying the black knight monty python avatar for mine, but decided there are way better things I could blow my cash on. I wonder if CCP will even sell us "living spaces" in stations. It's actually kind of sad how much money people will spend on digital sofas and bookshelves.
Bhattran	Posted - 2010.10.08 17:12:00 - [58] Originally by: Yakia TovilToba I can't believe there is so much whining about this. For years you can buy isk with money (via ETC, now via PLEX), that has a direct impact on the gameplay. Alliances that lost their capital fleets bought new ones and turned the tables with RL-Cash. No one complained. Now you can remap for 15 $ more than once a year. It has no direct impact on the game, the vets are training with 2772 SP/hour anyways if they like. And anyone with RL-Cash can buy his way to win by buying a high SP character, indefinite ship replacement or faction gear. Yet they whine about the remapping option. How incredibly dumb must one be to complain about this feature ? Most of the MMOs I played (and that are quite a few) now have one or the other kind of microtransaction (it's a clear trend in the MMO industry) and often it gives you direct advantage over your fellow players, like special heal portions that don't stack with regular potions or gear with better stats etc. CCP is doing something completely harmless in this respect, yet there are ****s to whine about it, WTF has happened to this community ? Some people do think poorly of Real life cash to plex-gaining isk but if you understood the process you'd know that it works to alleviate the power and success of 3rd party RMT's who artificially gain isk through macroing/account hacking, it also doesn't magically bypass game mechanics to make isk. The actual cost of a plex is $17.50 USD $35 for 2 as you must buy in packs of 2, and it does have a small impact on gameplay because you can bypass the neural remap mechanic with $. Now your argument is other companies have MT so it is okay, then you go on to say this is completely harmless, sure bypassing game mechanics is fine can I please pay $10 a month to have every ship I fly be industructable? --Submit your bug reports via mental telepathy this will streamline CCP ignoring them.--**
Manipulator General o.0	Posted - 2010.10.08 17:22:00 - [59] Originally by: Cupio Mortem Edited by: Cupio Mortem on 08/10/2010 13:23:05 Originally by: Illwill Bill Absolutely! The ownership of the in-game bits and zeroes is not disputed here. What we are discussing here are the potential implications of the in-game market if CCP decides to sell non-vanity items and thereby bypass the market forces. Well, while we're at it, let's also discuss if CCP decides to allow Isk for ******* shipment type transactions. It has every bit as much of a foundation in reality as the current argument being posed. For the record, I'm ALL FOR IT! Please do not evade the profanity filter. Zymurgist Wow, who know that word was a profanity.
Professor Tarantula Hedion University	Posted - 2010.10.08 17:33:00 - [60] Wow, the vanity items thing leads me to think they're following Blizzards lead. Which is sad. Very, very, sad. My Warmest Regards. Prof. Tarantula, Esq.

Yakia TovilToba Halliburton Inc.	Posted - 2010.10.08 21:13:00 - [61] Originally by: Bhattran Now your argument is other companies have MT so it is okay, then you go on to say this is completely harmless, sure bypassing game mechanics is fine can I please pay $10 a month to have every ship I fly be industructable? My argument is that MMOs make huge amounts of money with microtrasactions (MT) in particular if MT give an advantage in PVP. After all MMO publishers are companies with a pursuit of profit. That's why you see MT popping up everywhere, and you can't keep those companies from doing that as long as they make good money with it. The last MT introduction I've seen was in Lotro. Here you can buy extra stats or healing potions for example, that have a different countdown timer than the normal ingame potions. If you compare that to Eve, that's like having a MT-item that suddenly repairs a big chunk of your shield/armor/hull in battle, as soon as you redeem that MT-item, aside from your other modules. Or gives you extra resistances and such. And this is why I say remap is harmless and can't be compared to that. It does not give you a direct advantage in combat. If you have a fight with someone, it makes no diffrence for you, if that's a 6 years old vet with all skills at 5, or a 1 year old player who has specialized in one ship and therefor has all skills at 5. Or a 2 years old remapper, who did not specialise but have the skills at 5 because he was training faster than a 2 year old non-remapper. The remapper won't won't have an additional advantage over you on the field that can't be had without RL money. It is a much bigger diffrence if he can buy isk from other players and therefore fit better modules, as this will have a direct impact (which no one seems to complain about). The money goes to CCP instead to other players compared to when the plex is used for buying gametime. But is this a problem ? I'd rather see my money in CCP's hands and know that it contributes to game development, instead of giving it to someone who plays the game without paying a single cent for it, just because he is making lot's of isk.
Jennifer Starling	Posted - 2010.10.08 21:20:00 - [62] Originally by: Yakia TovilToba It does not give you a direct advantage in combat. If you have a fight with someone, it makes no diffrence for you, if that's a 6 years old vet with all skills at 5, or a 1 year old player who has specialized in one ship and therefor has all skills at 5. Or a 2 years old remapper, who did not specialise but have the skills at 5 because he was training faster than a 2 year old non-remapper. Yes but if you have a 1 year old player who hasn¦t specialized in one ship and therefore hasn¦t all skills at 5 you do have an advantage. More SP in relevant categories can (but doesn¦t neccessarily does) have a decisive advantage in PvP. Quote: It is a much bigger diffrence if he can buy isk from other players and therefore fit better modules, as this will have a direct impact (which no one seems to complain about). Completely agree.
CyberGh0st Minmatar Blue Republic	Posted - 2010.10.08 21:37:00 - [63] Edited by: CyberGh0st on 08/10/2010 21:38:56 Originally by: Yakia TovilToba My argument is that MMOs make huge amounts of money with microtrasactions (MT) in particular if MT give an advantage in PVP. After all MMO publishers are companies with a pursuit of profit. That's why you see MT popping up everywhere, and you can't keep those companies from doing that as long as they make good money with it. The last MT introduction I've seen was in Lotro. Here you can buy extra stats or healing potions for example, that have a different countdown timer than the normal ingame potions. Keep in mind that LOTRO is free to play now, well, you can play some of it for free, then you start paying in chunks ( microtransactions ), they were bleeding subs and their game is not a sandbox like EVE. EVE on the other hand, was very successfull with their subscription model, probably the most successfull after WoW, that is why they could afford to develop Dust and WoD and make 3 new studios, it is just so dumb of CCP to do this now. http://www.mmodata.net Favorite MMO's : DAoC Pre-TOA-NF / SWG Pre-CU-NGE
CyberGh0st Minmatar Blue Republic	Posted - 2010.10.08 21:45:00 - [64] Edited by: CyberGh0st on 08/10/2010 21:46:03 Originally by: Yakia TovilToba It does not give you a direct advantage in combat. If you have a fight with someone, it makes no diffrence for you, if that's a 6 years old vet with all skills at 5, or a 1 year old player who has specialized in one ship and therefor has all skills at 5. Or a 2 years old remapper, who did not specialise but have the skills at 5 because he was training faster than a 2 year old non-remapper. The remapper won't won't have an additional advantage over you on the field that can't be had without RL money. It is a much bigger diffrence if he can buy isk from other players and therefore fit better modules, as this will have a direct impact (which no one seems to complain about). You are right, of course, the thing is, that RMT between players will happen regardless, so I always supported the clever but pragmatic solution of GTC's for ISK, or Plexes for ISK. Better to make it legal and let CCP profit from it a bit than to let if fall into the hands of criminals that may rip you off. Microtransactions on the other hand, are unneeded, except to fill the hole in CCP's pockets after overexpanding and starting projects like DUST which will cost alot of money and will not generate alot of income. ( Dust should be a free expansion on EVE, but thats another discussion :p ) http://www.mmodata.net Favorite MMO's : DAoC Pre-TOA-NF / SWG Pre-CU-NGE
Cupio Mortem	Posted - 2010.10.08 22:33:00 - [65] Originally by: CyberGh0st ( Dust should be a free expansion on EVE, but thats another discussion :p ) That comment alone has completely buried any credibility you had left, imho. upoor bro?
Brainless Bimbo Pator Tech School	Posted - 2010.10.08 23:21:00 - [66] Microtransactions, the reduction of opportunity in a service you pay a monthly fee for to how fat your wallet is bulging. Remaps were a sop to idiots (yeah, thats harsh but large true), extra remaps for Plex is a direct money earner for CCP from that demographic, but also with the potential of a small ISK sink in game, which is also benificial. Impact in game, X flies his FoM a week earlier then has to pay to remap to do it properly, which means his next goal will call for another remap etc ... the pursuit of the "i win" button providing CCP more profit One hope that CCP dont get enticed by greed driven schemes like thier banks did, we all know how well that ended now don¦t we ..... ...... continues overleaf.
Cupio Mortem	Posted - 2010.10.08 23:26:00 - [67] Originally by: Brainless Bimbo Microtransactions, the reduction of opportunity in a service you pay a monthly fee for to how fat your wallet is bulging. Remaps were a sop to idiots (yeah, thats harsh but large true), extra remaps for Plex is a direct money earner for CCP from that demographic, but also with the potential of a small ISK sink in game, which is also benificial. Impact in game, X flies his FoM a week earlier then has to pay to remap to do it properly, which means his next goal will call for another remap etc ... the pursuit of the "i win" button providing CCP more profit One hope that CCP dont get enticed by greed driven schemes like thier banks did, we all know how well that ended now don¦t we ..... Yes, we do. they made out like bandits and now continue on business as usual. So your point waaaas?
Brainless Bimbo Pator Tech School	Posted - 2010.10.08 23:49:00 - [68] Originally by: Cupio Mortem Originally by: Brainless Bimbo what i said... Yes, we do. they made out like bandits and now continue on business as usual. So your point waaaas? Ok, lets try to understand what ur reply was. "Yes, we do.# - do what, did i say do something? are you refering to paying a monthly fee? "they made out like bandits and now continue on business as usual." - how bandits, are they robbing you, stealing your goods and possessions?, threating or endangering you?, the price of eve is stated and agreed no banditry there. "So your point waaaas?" - well read it and think, but basiclly again, its a sop to idiots and a money generator from them too with limited in game impact considering the time scale involved in eve. ...... continues overleaf.
Bhattran	Posted - 2010.10.09 01:55:00 - [69] Originally by: Yakia TovilToba Originally by: Bhattran Now your argument is other companies have MT so it is okay, then you go on to say this is completely harmless, sure bypassing game mechanics is fine can I please pay $10 a month to have every ship I fly be industructable? My argument is that MMOs make huge amounts of money with microtrasactions (MT) in particular if MT give an advantage in PVP. After all MMO publishers are companies with a pursuit of profit. That's why you see MT popping up everywhere, and you can't keep those companies from doing that as long as they make good money with it. The last MT introduction I've seen was in Lotro. Here you can buy extra stats or healing potions for example, that have a different countdown timer than the normal ingame potions. If you compare that to Eve, that's like having a MT-item that suddenly repairs a big chunk of your shield/armor/hull in battle, as soon as you redeem that MT-item, aside from your other modules. Or gives you extra resistances and such. And this is why I say remap is harmless and can't be compared to that. It does not give you a direct advantage in combat. If you have a fight with someone, it makes no diffrence for you, if that's a 6 years old vet with all skills at 5, or a 1 year old player who has specialized in one ship and therefor has all skills at 5. Or a 2 years old remapper, who did not specialise but have the skills at 5 because he was training faster than a 2 year old non-remapper. The remapper won't won't have an additional advantage over you on the field that can't be had without RL money. It is a much bigger diffrence if he can buy isk from other players and therefore fit better modules, as this will have a direct impact (which no one seems to complain about). The money goes to CCP instead to other players compared to when the plex is used for buying gametime. But is this a problem ? I'd rather see my money in CCP's hands and know that it contributes to game development, instead of giving it to someone who plays the game without paying a single cent for it, just because he is making lot's of isk. It is a classic greed scenario they make X and X pays the bills and gives them the ability to run additional projects (WOD DUST514) but they want moar so how about MT? You still miss the point that some people do have an issue with Real life $$ -> Plex -> isk but there are reasons why it is TOLERATED, namely it combats a 3rd party abusing CCP's product EVE by artificially 'creating' isk in a manner normal players would not do through macroing 23/7 or stealing isk directly from players by hacking their accounts. Just because people are willing to toss $$ at CCP for MT doesn't mean it is a good thing just as CCP taking in that money doesn't mean it is going to be used on EVE at all. That MT money might go into developing the next project CCP sets their eyes on, another Console game perhaps. If EVE can't survive on the income from subscriptions then CCP is doing it wrong and need to focus on how to keep subscribers and make EVE profitable based on that, NOT MT which are a crutch for a POS game or just an act of sheer greed to milk players willing to pay extra on top of paying to play. All money from Plex goes to CCP, that is how they get created, whether you use it for gametime sell it on the market or as will be the case trade it for a remap, CCP collects their $$ FIRST. --Submit your bug reports via mental telepathy this will streamline CCP ignoring them.--
Erick Odin Amarr Local-Spike	Posted - 2010.10.10 03:32:00 - [70] I buy GTC's for ISK from time to time. Can't freaking stand PVE. Charging people money to fix a ******ed learning skill system is a little sneaky if you ask me. I'm fine with the vanity stuff.

Marchocias Silent Ninja's	Posted - 2010.10.10 07:54:00 - [71] Edited by: Marchocias on 10/10/2010 07:56:34 Originally by: Yakia TovilToba I can't believe there is so much whining about this. For years you can buy isk with money (via ETC, now via PLEX), that has a direct impact on the gameplay. Alliances that lost their capital fleets bought new ones and turned the tables with RL-Cash. No one complained. Now you can remap for 15 $ more than once a year. It has no direct impact on the game, the vets are training with 2772 SP/hour anyways if they like. And anyone with RL-Cash can buy his way to win by buying a high SP character, indefinite ship replacement or faction gear. Yet they whine about the remapping option. How incredibly dumb must one be to complain about this feature ? Most of the MMOs I played (and that are quite a few) now have one or the other kind of microtransaction (it's a clear trend in the MMO industry) and often it gives you direct advantage over your fellow players, like special heal portions that don't stack with regular potions or gear with better stats etc. CCP is doing something completely harmless in this respect, yet there are ******s to whine about it, WTF has happened to this community ? Its not a question of being "incredibly dumb". I think most of the people complaining don't have a problem with the remap thing, but they are very concerned at the feature-creep that it represents. Originally, the ability to use GTCs/Plex was put into the game as CCP realised that whether they banned real-money-trading or not it was going to happen, so they provided a mechanism to allow it but have it subjected to market rates, and ensure that isk wasn't simply created out of thin air. People complained about it at the time, but there was at least some rational justification to it, and it did indeed decrease the market for illegal real-money-trading. Now they are allowing you to use plexes to gain something that they ARE creating out of thin air: remaps. Those who are upset about this are basically asking the question: how long before CCP will create ships, guns, implants, skillpoints out of thin air, in return for plexes. We are now one step closer to this, so people are understandably worried, given the adverse effect that such a change has had on other games in the past. Also, some devs have explicitly stated that there are no plans for microtransactions whatsoever (which has now been shown to be an abject falsehood), and other devs have stated that they plan to introduce microtransactions for "vanity" items. There is no clear answer to the question "CCP, how far are you going to take this?". Combine that with the fact that CCP has promised things that haven't ever materialised, and surely you can understand the lack of trust many have over this issue. If you can't understand the concern, especially given the consise and simple explanation I have presented here, then perhaps you're the one who is incredibly dumb. ---- I belong to Silent Ninja (Hopefully that should cover it).
Marchocias Silent Ninja's	Posted - 2010.10.10 08:09:00 - [72] Originally by: Yakia TovilToba Originally by: Bhattran Now your argument is other companies have MT so it is okay, then you go on to say this is completely harmless, sure bypassing game mechanics is fine can I please pay $10 a month to have every ship I fly be industructable? My argument is that MMOs make huge amounts of money with microtrasactions (MT) in particular if MT give an advantage in PVP. After all MMO publishers are companies with a pursuit of profit. That's why you see MT popping up everywhere, and you can't keep those companies from doing that as long as they make good money with it. The last MT introduction I've seen was in Lotro. Here you can buy extra stats or healing potions for example, that have a different countdown timer than the normal ingame potions. If you compare that to Eve, that's like having a MT-item that suddenly repairs a big chunk of your shield/armor/hull in battle, as soon as you redeem that MT-item, aside from your other modules. Or gives you extra resistances and such. And this is why I say remap is harmless and can't be compared to that. It does not give you a direct advantage in combat. If you have a fight with someone, it makes no diffrence for you, if that's a 6 years old vet with all skills at 5, or a 1 year old player who has specialized in one ship and therefor has all skills at 5. Or a 2 years old remapper, who did not specialise but have the skills at 5 because he was training faster than a 2 year old non-remapper. The remapper won't won't have an additional advantage over you on the field that can't be had without RL money. It is a much bigger diffrence if he can buy isk from other players and therefore fit better modules, as this will have a direct impact (which no one seems to complain about). The money goes to CCP instead to other players compared to when the plex is used for buying gametime. But is this a problem ? I'd rather see my money in CCP's hands and know that it contributes to game development, instead of giving it to someone who plays the game without paying a single cent for it, just because he is making lot's of isk. Er, I think you've misunderstood something. When someone buys a plex, and exchanges it with another player for isk, the real money has ALREADY gone to CCP. At no point does the real money go to the player who is receiving the game time. Just because you spend your plex on something from another player doesn't stop CCP making cash. This is true whether a plex is exhanged for ISK, or exchanged for game time. ---- I belong to Silent Ninja (Hopefully that should cover it).
Kerfira Kerfira Corp	Posted - 2010.10.10 08:11:00 - [73] Originally by: Orion GUardian Damn, fix the forum already, I wrote a nice 4000 characters post and damn forum said "login again" and everythings gone.... Then you press the 'back' button twice (after the new login), and your post is back... (at least if you use firefox) Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2010.10.10 08:37:00 - [74] Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 10/10/2010 08:22:59 Originally by: Orion GUardian Damn, fix the forum already, I wrote a nice 4000 characters post and damn forum said "login again" and everythings gone.... Then you press the 'back' button twice (after the new login), and your post is back... (at least if you use firefox) On topic... I think the 'Plex for Remap' is great! It is a good idea that'll remove an annoyance and won't damage any game balance in any way. It'll mostly benefit younger players too... That some people are oh so worried what this will end up at is quite frankly silly. You can not extrapolate from the introduction of a harmless feature like this that CCP will introduce harmful features in the future! Even a 'Double Training Speed for Plex' wouldn't be really damaging since you can ALREADY buy more SP for ISK... It's very simple to do to since you just have to go here. Note: I don't like the idea myself, but damaging? Not really... I like character trading far, FAR less!. Until CCP actually DOES do something stupid in this area (like introduce exclusive content), it's silly to criticise them for what they in some peoples mind MIGHT do! Up until now CCP has shown themselves fairly good administrators of EVE's heritage and gameplay, and I don't see any signs that this is changing. indeed that and players have been asking for plex for portrait change and character swap. besides it bothers me far more (and not that it really bothers me) that someone can go officer fit a ship and buy a set of pirate implants for $$$, than OH NOES HE REMAPPED!!!
Captain Blart Hideous Mutant Freekz	Posted - 2010.10.10 08:39:00 - [75] In the end, paying RL money for neural remap will be a success and a feature that a lot of people will use, myself first if i feel the need to . Im not saying that I would use it every month but 2 neural remap per year seems to be fine.
Snorre Sturlasson	Posted - 2010.10.10 09:12:00 - [76] Micropayment sucks, because after a little time it turns to a competition of those with the biggest wallets. I will cancel my accounts if this will be the result.
Jennifer Starling	Posted - 2010.10.10 09:51:00 - [77] Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 10/10/2010 09:56:06 Originally by: Marchocias When someone buys a plex, and exchanges it with another player for isk, the real money has ALREADY gone to CCP. At no point does the real money go to the player who is receiving the game time. Just because you spend your plex on something from another player doesn't stop CCP making cash. This is true whether a plex is exhanged for ISK, or exchanged for game time. Of course this is true but remapping for plex has a different net effect than plex for ISK. Plex for ISK and using plex for gametime is basically just paying for someone else's subscription in exchange of ISK. Before: Player X has 700 million ISK, $100 Player Y has 0, $200 --> *CCP gets 2 months of subscription (2 regular) After: Player X has 350 million ISK, $70 (payed CCP for plex + subscription) Player Y has 350 million ISK, $200 (plex for ISK from Player X, uses for gametime) --> CCP gets 2 months of subscription (1 "regular", 1 by plex)** Now look at the plex for remap situation: After: Player X has 350 million ISK, $70 (payed CCP for plex + subscription) Player Y has 350 million ISK, $185 (ISK for plex, uses for remap + sub to CCP) --> CCP gets 3 months of subscription (2 "regular", 1 by plex) So in the remap case, CCP gets a small financial profit while this didn't happen in case of plex for gametime. That how you'd define a "true" microtransaction.
Forum Guy	Posted - 2010.10.10 10:38:00 - [78] Originally by: Kerfira On topic... I think the 'Plex for Remap' is great! It is a good idea that'll remove an annoyance and won't damage any game balance in any way. It'll mostly benefit younger players too... A system that allows a group of people to advance quicker than another group is an imbalance in my book when it's funded directly from outside of the game by the size of someone's wallet. Originally by: Kerfira That some people are oh so worried what this will end up at is quite frankly silly. You can not extrapolate from the introduction of a harmless feature like this that CCP will introduce harmful features in the future! Why is it silly, a lot of us have seen how these micro-transactions grow in other games. Wonder if in the future we will get the shop adverts when you log in advertising things like 'get your celestial steed here'. No prizes for guessing which game they were from. They would just be jumping on the band-wagon with micro-transactions (it's just greed)but they will justify it by pointing out other games do it and they are a business after all. Originally by: Kerfira Even a 'Double Training Speed for Plex' wouldn't be really damaging since you can ALREADY buy more SP for ISK... It's very simple to do to since you just have to go here. Note: I don't like the idea myself, but damaging? Not really... I like character trading far, FAR less! Disagree because it favours the group with the biggest wallets yet again. I could benefit from them myself but I prefer games to be fair within the game. Meaning not directly effected by the size of someone wallet. Some people might say multiple accounts are an unfair advantage but I don't see it that way because all you have to do to combat that is join a player corp. As for buying characters, I don't see the point as I'd prefer to develop the character in the way I want it to develop. Originally by: Kerfira Until CCP actually DOES do something stupid in this area (like introduce exclusive content), it's silly to criticise them for what they in some peoples mind MIGHT do! Up until now CCP has shown themselves fairly good administrators of EVE's heritage and gameplay, and I don't see any signs that this is changing. Disagree again, it's much easier to try and prevent something from happening rather than just wait until it happens at which point it generally too late.
Jennifer Starling	Posted - 2010.10.10 10:47:00 - [79] Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 10/10/2010 10:52:49 Originally by: Forum Guy As for buying characters, I don't see the point as I'd prefer to develop the character in the way I want it to develop. You're kind of contradicting yourself imo. We already have a situation that if you're prepared to pay USD 300 for plexes you can buy a 60 million SP character. Yes it's dependent on the market but I haven't heard people complaining that they can't sell their plexes, in fact their prices are steadily rising. The fact that you won't do it doesn't mean other players can't do it. So there already is a mechanism that favours the big wallets, 60 million in one day is a bit more than a possible 2-4 million SP a year because of better remaps. This whole remapping stuff for plex is very minor in comparison so I'm really surprised that you 100% agree with 60 million characters for plex for IRL money and not with a small advantage gained by remapping. That you pay for other people's gametime instead of paying CCP for your advantage has nothing to do with the reality of being able to buy your in-game advantage and that the game mechanics greatly favour "big wallets".
Forum Guy	Posted - 2010.10.10 11:00:00 - [80] Originally by: Jennifer Starling Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 10/10/2010 10:52:49 Originally by: Forum Guy As for buying characters, I don't see the point as I'd prefer to develop the character in the way I want it to develop. You're kind of contradicting yourself imo. We already have a situation that if you're prepared to pay USD 300 for plexes you can buy a 60 million SP character. Yes it's dependent on the market but I haven't heard people complaining that they can't sell their plexes, in fact their prices are steadily rising. The fact that you won't do it doesn't mean other players can't do it. So there already is a mechanism that favours the big wallets, 60 million in one day is a bit more than a possible 2-4 million SP a year because of better remaps. This whole remapping stuff for plex is very minor in comparison so I'm really surprised that you 100% agree with 60 million characters for plex for IRL money and not with a small advantage gained by remapping. That you pay for other people's gametime instead of paying CCP for your advantage has nothing to do with the reality of being able to buy your in-game advantage and that the game mechanics greatly favour "big wallets". I'm not saying I agree with being able to buy characters. What I'm saying is I don't know much about that practice so I can't really comment other than to say it's something I would not do. As for buying Plex to sell for isk, there's no more advantage there than someone starting an alt and giving it isk.

Voith	Posted - 2010.10.10 15:12:00 - [81] Originally by: Serpents smile It starts with something harmless. Some of us just are worried where it will lead to. The only thing this is going to lead to is some dork paying $15 for a cool hat.
Bhattran	Posted - 2010.10.10 15:19:00 - [82] Originally by: Voith Originally by: Serpents smile It starts with something harmless. Some of us just are worried where it will lead to. The only thing this is going to lead to is some dork paying $15 for a cool hat. When enough dorks don't buy the cool hats CCP might look at offering cool ships/modules/implants/skills you can buy from them and only them. --Submit your bug reports via mental telepathy this will streamline CCP ignoring them.--
Voith	Posted - 2010.10.10 15:33:00 - [83] Originally by: Bhattran Originally by: Voith Originally by: Serpents smile It starts with something harmless. Some of us just are worried where it will lead to. The only thing this is going to lead to is some dork paying $15 for a cool hat. When enough dorks don't buy the cool hats CCP might look at offering cool ships/modules/implants/skills you can buy from them and only them. This is so dumb I do not know where to begin.
Jennifer Starling	Posted - 2010.10.10 15:37:00 - [84] Originally by: Voith Originally by: Bhattran Originally by: Voith Originally by: Serpents smile It starts with something harmless. Some of us just are worried where it will lead to. The only thing this is going to lead to is some dork paying $15 for a cool hat. When enough dorks don't buy the cool hats CCP might look at offering cool ships/modules/implants/skills you can buy from them and only them. This is so dumb I do not know where to begin. Yes indeed. Who doesn't want to buy a cool hat?!?!!
Rashmika Clavain Gallente	Posted - 2010.10.10 15:46:00 - [85] Originally by: Orion GUardian Originally by: Chesty McJubblies Originally by: Orion GUardian Damn, fix the forum already, I wrote a nice 4000 characters post and damn forum said "login again" and everythings gone.... lol, look at you. Yeah point and laugh, thats life ^^ Hmm well I just click on the back button and I ge all my "lost" text. You don't do that?
Voith	Posted - 2010.10.10 15:46:00 - [86] Originally by: Jennifer Starling Yes indeed. Who doesn't want to buy a cool hat?!?!! If you bother to look at the sales other cosmetic micro transaction shops you will see a ton of people don't mind spending a few bucks on something that looks good. Hell, I think it was in WoW, that Blizzard made $10 million in a few weeks with a mount reskin they sold for 5 bucks. There is a reason why people are adding cosmetic item shops to MMOs: Because they make a ****-ton of money and don't impact game play.
clixoras	Posted - 2010.10.10 15:52:00 - [87] Originally by: Captain Blart Edited by: Captain Blart on 10/10/2010 08:56:37 In the end, paying RL money for neural remap will be a success and a feature that a lot of people will use, myself included if i feel the need to . Im not saying that I would use it every month but 2 neural remap per year seems to be fine. I beg to differ, i doubt that many people will actually spend RL cash directly for a remap (come on, 17,50 for remap is kind of steep). The people who will use it will just buy PLEXES of the market increasing demand and thus the price of PLEX. So, to make it clear, i have no problem that people can purchase remaps (which doesnt give a direct benefit anyway) but let's not use PLEXES for them ok?
Destination SkillQueue Are We There Yet	Posted - 2010.10.10 16:06:00 - [88] Originally by: Voith Originally by: Jennifer Starling Yes indeed. Who doesn't want to buy a cool hat?!?!! If you bother to look at the sales other cosmetic micro transaction shops you will see a ton of people don't mind spending a few bucks on something that looks good. Hell, I think it was in WoW, that Blizzard made $10 million in a few weeks with a mount reskin they sold for 5 bucks. There is a reason why people are adding cosmetic item shops to MMOs: Because they make a ****-ton of money and don't impact game play. My only beef with that is, that the devs will start to intentionally shift the awesome looking things to such a system instead of making it available to all subscribers. After all nobody is going to spend money on cosmetic stuff that looks worse than the stuff every subscriber gets with no extra cost. Basicly the cream on the top will be removed from subscribers and given exclusively to people willing to pay extra for the privelege. This won't affect gameplay, but it will affect peoples enjoyment of the game. Increased for all willing to pay and reduced for many of those who aren't. Microtransactions is a risky business, since it requires delicate balancing. You can milk people for extra cash, but many don't like it and once you cross the line of tolerance with them it is all over. People who leave a game because of burnout or broken features usually come back after things get fixed. When people quit over microtransactions they aren't coming back.
Bhattran	Posted - 2010.10.10 16:17:00 - [89] Originally by: Voith Originally by: Jennifer Starling Yes indeed. Who doesn't want to buy a cool hat?!?!! If you bother to look at the sales other cosmetic micro transaction shops you will see a ton of people don't mind spending a few bucks on something that looks good. Hell, I think it was in WoW, that Blizzard made $10 million in a few weeks with a mount reskin they sold for 5 bucks. There is a reason why people are adding cosmetic item shops to MMOs: Because they make a **-ton of money and don't impact game play. Except there is a decided difference between your typical EVE player and WOW player, if there wasn't EVE would have a similar userbase as WOW. It is highly unlikely your average EVE player is going to toss cash at CCP for hats/shoes/ship paint/etc that have no effect on gameplay certainly some will but not nearly enough to justify only selling cosmetic 'crap'. --Submit your bug reports via mental telepathy this will streamline CCP ignoring them.--**
Voith	Posted - 2010.10.10 17:30:00 - [90] Originally by: Bhattran Originally by: Voith Originally by: Jennifer Starling Yes indeed. Who doesn't want to buy a cool hat?!?!! If you bother to look at the sales other cosmetic micro transaction shops you will see a ton of people don't mind spending a few bucks on something that looks good. Hell, I think it was in WoW, that Blizzard made $10 million in a few weeks with a mount reskin they sold for 5 bucks. There is a reason why people are adding cosmetic item shops to MMOs: Because they make a ****-ton of money and don't impact game play. Except there is a decided difference between your typical EVE player and WOW player, if there wasn't EVE would have a similar userbase as WOW. It is highly unlikely your average EVE player is going to toss cash at CCP for hats/shoes/ship paint/etc that have no effect on gameplay certainly some will but not nearly enough to justify only selling cosmetic 'crap'. hahahahahhahahahaha You think people don't buy things because they look cool in Eve?

Marchocias Silent Ninja's	Posted - 2010.10.13 13:32:00 - [91] Edited by: Marchocias on 13/10/2010 13:35:07 Originally by: Jennifer Starling Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 10/10/2010 11:11:02 Originally by: Marchocias When someone buys a plex, and exchanges it with another player for isk, the real money has ALREADY gone to CCP. At no point does the real money go to the player who is receiving the game time. Just because you spend your plex on something from another player doesn't stop CCP making cash. This is true whether a plex is exhanged for ISK, or exchanged for game time. Of course this is true but remapping for plex has a different net effect than using plex for gametime. ... [lots of numbers] ... I get what you're saying. I wasn't saying it wasn't a microtransaction. I was just picking up on Yakia TovilTobas point Originally by: "Yakia TovilToba" The money goes to CCP instead to other players compared to when the plex is used for buying gametime. which suggests that sometimes the real money doesn't go to CCP. Originally by: Jennifer Starling Who doesn't want to buy a cool hat?!?!! Also, quoted for truth! ---- I belong to Silent Ninja (Hopefully that should cover it).
Shemmy 7th Space Cavalry Freemason Core	Posted - 2010.10.13 14:17:00 - [92] Originally by: Yakia TovilToba It does not give you a direct advantage in combat. If you have a fight with someone, it makes no diffrence for you, if that's a 6 years old vet with all skills at 5, or a 1 year old player who has specialized in one ship and therefor has all skills at 5. Or a 2 years old remapper, who did not specialise but have the skills at 5 because he was training faster than a 2 year old non-remapper. The remapper won't won't have an additional advantage over you on the field that can't be had without RL money. I disagree. If you are rich enough, then specialised alts will gain a significant advantage if the remaps can be done at will. Previously, it took time and effort to train a Falcon or whatever on your (primarily industrial) alt character. This is just going to make FOTM alts that much more prevalent among the RL-rich players. Originally by: Yakia TovilToba It is a much bigger diffrence if he can buy isk from other players and therefore fit better modules, as this will have a direct impact (which no one seems to complain about). We do complain about it, actually. We don't like it, but it will always be there. PLEX is CCP's way of making it official, it isn't going away, and even we, the EVE community, have come to accept that. I've never sold PLEX for isk, but then I must be a paragon of virtue looking at the market. Originally by: Yakia TovilToba I'd rather see my money in CCP's hands and know that it contributes to game development... Much like the latest patch, amirite? CCP will use it for game development thats for sure, just not the game called "EVE Online".
Shemmy 7th Space Cavalry Freemason Core	Posted - 2010.10.13 14:37:00 - [93] Originally by: Voith Originally by: Bhattran Originally by: Voith Originally by: Serpents smile It starts with something harmless. Some of us just are worried where it will lead to. The only thing this is going to lead to is some dork paying $15 for a cool hat. When enough dorks don't buy the cool hats CCP might look at offering cool ships/modules/implants/skills you can buy from them and only them. This is so dumb I do not know where to begin. Let me introduce you to the Cerebral Accelerator.
knobber Jobbler Executive Intervention Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2010.10.13 14:42:00 - [94] Originally by: Diomedes Calypso You 100% buy isk directly fomr CCP. The whole idea that you buy the isk from players is a marketing ruse (one that pulls the wool over so many peoples eyes evidently) All isk is created by CCP (infinite amounts availble with a flick of their wrists). All game time is created by CCP (for a larger real $ cost.. each incremental hour of game time played bears a cost in terms of extra server and customer service load even if you left the overhead asside). CCP uses some smoke and mirrors to create the perception that by giving free game time to people parting with their isk, in direct proprtion to player selling a certain chit, that somehow playersr have created something of value. The can do the coi little "moi?" when accused of selling isk where anyone can see the quid pro quo That makes little sense. The bits I can get out of that: No, you don't buy ISK of CCP. You exchange game play time for ISK a player has aquired. For Plex to work players have to make money by selling items or bounties. They can exchange that ISK for game time which someone else has purchased. CCP doesn't just instant up ISK. Its economy doesn't work like that and is far more complicated. They can manipulate the economy by adjusting LP stores, mission and complexes, materials required for modules/ships and availability of those materials. By proxy they can manipulate the ISK that people will ask for Plex. But they cannot inject ISK into the economy like a nation can print bank notes. The EVE economy doesn't work that way.
Tigobitty Caldari Australian Mining and industry Corp Intergalactic Exports Group	Posted - 2010.10.13 15:23:00 - [95] Originally by: Orion GUardian "When WOW and Clones came out" heh.. nice... now I can't get "Wow and Clowns" out of my head. Freudian misreading ftw =) -------------------- "A good skirmish is one you can live to fly away from... a Great skirmish is on where you can still use your ship afterwards.."
alittlebirdy	Posted - 2010.10.13 15:37:00 - [96] It is what eve learned from WoT, they were like O snap, WoT closed beta has 500k players WHAT? O they do microtransactions... OKAY GUYS lets get on that, but CCP being the FAIL it is... kinda forgot about the part of WoT being F2P with no sub where in eve has a sub... I am sure we will have a fix out though, like more microtrasactions... PLEX is nothing more than good PR spin by CCP... yep let those with out a job pay for eve.. and those with get isk cause they lack the time to play... lolzorz Plex PR spin, only thing ccp did not totaly fail at.


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