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Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.10.09 08:35:00 - [31] Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 09/10/2010 08:38:44 Quote: Generally, aye; but if you saw a stack of four blueprints, you would know that they are still-packaged, un-used BPOs because instantiated items (used BPOs, all BPCs) cannot be stacked, right? This is one of the ways to do so (there are others not shown in this thread) but in my EvE life it has never happened to have an investee have a 4 x 2B (each) BPOs stack (the ones I mentioned), so it's less of a practical way than the others. Quote: I am waiting for VV to publicly list her full api info. I doubt she ever will even though she has literally nothing to hide - supposedly. I have a lot to hide expecially to CAOD grade people: - my customer(s) collateral location. It'd also heavily impact on my NAV so ATM calculating it would be quite pointless. - my assets location including my research services facilities. - my stuff in 0.0. It should be not relevant by now but who knows, you are but one of a zillion reds posting here. - my large number of emails off people who would not take it kindly if API would allow (see CCP blogs) even to just fetch their main's name so you wardec them or whatever. Actually if you were anything better than a short memory troll, you'd recall the previous threads exactly on this same matter. If you put the money for that, I'll gladly try and get an audit done by the only people in game who could assure me enough with their pristine integrity to not give away my customers identities / assets / everything. Of couse it'll be worthless, since my customers assets would inficiate the results, but you seem so miffed at something that it could help placate your itches. Quote: personally i think most of the auditors if not all are scam artist an are better at it remember ebank & dbank. There is (sadly) _1_ auditor ATM which is me and I dare, challenge and even bet against you about you managing to find record of mine supporting EBANK in "unsuspicious times before their crack". Which is kind of sad because I really appreciated Athre's (in many respects) and even Hexxx's MD works. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
RAW23	Posted - 2010.10.09 08:41:00 - [32] Originally by: SetrakDark Really? No one's taken the 2 minutes required to nuke this whole thing? Shameful. Withholding relevant information? Shameful.
Gabriel Virtus hirr	Posted - 2010.10.09 09:05:00 - [33] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha I have a lot to hide expecially to CAOD grade people: - my customer(s) collateral location. It'd also heavily impact on my NAV so ATM calculating it would be quite pointless. - my assets location including my research services facilities. - my stuff in 0.0. It should be not relevant by now but who knows, you are but one of a zillion reds posting here. - my large number of emails off people who would not take it kindly if API would allow (see CCP blogs) even to just fetch their main's name so you wardec them or whatever. I bet you do. You see no similarities with these claims as they relate to the people you berate on a daily basis with exactly the same claims? Aside from the research facilities (if they are in space) these are all easily dealth with. Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Actually if you were anything better than a short memory troll, you'd recall the previous threads exactly on this same matter. If you put the money for that, I'll gladly try and get an audit done by the only people in game who could assure me enough with their pristine integrity to not give away my customers identities / assets / everything. Convenient... again, you see no similarities with anything you criticize? Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha There is (sadly) _1_ auditor ATM which is me and I dare, challenge and even bet against you about you managing to find record of mine supporting EBANK in "unsuspicious times before their crack". Which is kind of sad because I really appreciated Athre's (in many respects) and even Hexxx's MD works. If I were you, I would challenge every new auditor without relent for being in the exact same situation you were in about a year ago. Auditors have to start somewhere and the "trust" issue that many posters are speaking about is the same with all auditors. There is little difference between the two of you; you have been doing it longer. You can claim anything you want, it doesn't matter, because all those claims are unsubstantiated just like all of this prospective new auditors claims are unsubstantiated. VV, I challege you to simply think for an hour before you post in response to this. -GV
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.10.09 10:24:00 - [34] Quote: I bet you do. You see no similarities with these claims as they relate to the people you berate on a daily basis with exactly the same claims The similarities are only apparent. With what face can I throw away information about 3rd parties who chose me exactly because I MUST keep their values private? If it was just for my things, the only stuff of any value is a POS, I could not care the less to tell you about my 3 Maelstroms, 1 freighter (I had 3 in the past) and capital BPOs, some hurricanes, 2 hulks, a number of Rifters and some other assorted crap and also where they are (all around Gallente and Minmatar space). My 0.0 stuff has been all sold except some crap in 5J. Go kill it. Quote: Convenient... again, you see no similarities with anything you criticize? No, I don't. Because toss the other auditor money / ask the auditing fund to do so and he audits me and I have NO issues with that. The only difficulty would be to convince him getting back to the job. If there were similarities YOU would not have had any issue as well. But you have issues and you are the one who wants public money in your investment, so the similarities are not here. Quote: If I were you, I would challenge every new auditor without relent for being in the exact same situation you were in about a year ago. ... where I was called: - scammer alt - member of SCC circle jerk - not trusted even doing free audits - flamed by prominent members of EBANK when it was "Elite" and whatever Quote: There is little difference between the two of you; you have been doing it longer. I suppose you can easily post my records. How many investments scammed once audited by me and whatsnot. Also, there is a difference and a big one: Not only I don't care to audit, it damages me. Heck I am in the middle of Angel Extravaganza and my ISK per hour just went to the tosser because I am replying here and this is all part of the gold wrapped package called "auditing and dealing with the consequences". Also, don't worry. RL bad employment is sorting me out so that you won't have lots of problems seeing me audit a lot around for the foreseeable future. Hope it'll help relieve you of your wagon loads of chips on your shoulders. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Hel O'Ween Men On A Mission	Posted - 2010.10.09 11:37:00 - [35] Originally by: Markus Richter So there is a way to crossreference the itemID from the asset api with the installedItemID from industry api? I'm not sure. I haven't dealt with any of the industry APIs so far. My guess is that the itemID is unique in the game and that itemID = installedItemID. But I'm just guessing here. If I'm not mistaken, that's how EveHQ tells BPOs apart from BPCs (once they're used and appear in the IndustryJobs API). -- EVEWalletAware - an offline wallet manager
SetrakDark Northstar Cabal R.A.G.E	Posted - 2010.10.09 13:11:00 - [36] Originally by: RAW23 Originally by: SetrakDark Really? No one's taken the 2 minutes required to nuke this whole thing? Shameful. Withholding relevant information? Shameful. Give a man a fish bla bla bla... :P
Yendor Widdershins Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2010.10.10 02:44:00 - [37] Originally by: Hel O'Ween Originally by: Markus Richter So there is a way to crossreference the itemID from the asset api with the installedItemID from industry api? I'm not sure. I haven't dealt with any of the industry APIs so far. In the interests of training future auditors: BPOs can be set to a production run longer than the maximum allowed for BPCs. This proves that the blueprint used in the manufacturing order was an original. Also note that only BPOs can have ME or PE research on them. Contracts of various kinds will allow an auditor to examine the blueprint as will a trade window. Unresearched and unmanufactured BPOs are the only kind that can be stacked, and the only kind that can be sold through the market instead of via contracts. Now my challenge question: Suppose I have two accounts. Can I transfer assets (say +5 implants) from my main account to my alt account without leaving an audit trace, and without creating a large number of bogus contracts to "sanitize" the record?
Calypsa Aeurelieus	Posted - 2010.10.10 06:46:00 - [38] It's been forever and a day since I used the feature. But I suppose if Character A was on one account and Character B on another you could use the trade window in station, as IIRC the trade window doesn't keep a log like a regular market/contract transaction.
Jin Natha Yulai Capital Management	Posted - 2010.10.10 07:04:00 - [39] Originally by: Calypsa Aeurelieus It's been forever and a day since I used the feature. But I suppose if Character A was on one account and Character B on another you could use the trade window in station, as IIRC the trade window doesn't keep a log like a regular market/contract transaction. Using the trade window adds a "direct trade between [name] and [name]" entry to both wallet journals. Dumping stuff into a jetcan with one character and retrieving it with another would presumably be less traceable.
Michela Bosun Shipyards	Posted - 2010.10.10 09:20:00 - [40] OK, here's where I call shenanigans. The whole notion of someone being asked to publicly post their full API key is ridiculous. At a certain point, you must take a leap of faith/trust. If you are unwilling to do so, just don't trust their results.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.10.10 10:40:00 - [41] Quote: Now my challenge question: Suppose I have two accounts. Can I transfer assets (say +5 implants) from my main account to my alt account without leaving an audit trace, and without creating a large number of bogus contracts to "sanitize" the record? Yes, and very easily. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Gabriel Virtus hirr	Posted - 2010.10.10 11:06:00 - [42] Originally by: Michela OK, here's where I call shenanigans. The whole notion of someone being asked to publicly post their full API key is ridiculous. At a certain point, you must take a leap of faith/trust. If you are unwilling to do so, just don't trust their results. Why is that ridiculous? At a certain point you do have to take a leap of faith, but posting a full API might make that leap quite a bit smaller. I am not the one trying to convince people I will make good audits and not use their info for unauthorized reasons. The starting point is not trusted, it is the job of the proponent to convince me otherwise. -GV
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.10.10 12:19:00 - [43] Originally by: Gabriel Virtus Originally by: Michela OK, here's where I call shenanigans. The whole notion of someone being asked to publicly post their full API key is ridiculous. At a certain point, you must take a leap of faith/trust. If you are unwilling to do so, just don't trust their results. Why is that ridiculous? At a certain point you do have to take a leap of faith, but posting a full API might make that leap quite a bit smaller. I am not the one trying to convince people I will make good audits and not use their info for unauthorized reasons. The starting point is not trusted, it is the job of the proponent to convince me otherwise. -GV So why didn't you post your full API when you tried convincing people to invest in you? - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Hel O'Ween Men On A Mission	Posted - 2010.10.10 16:06:00 - [44] Originally by: Yendor Widdershins In the interests of training future auditors: BPOs can be set to a production run longer than the maximum allowed for BPCs. This proves that the blueprint used in the manufacturing order was an original. Also note that only BPOs can have ME or PE research on them. Also the production runs remaining is -1 (unlimited) for BPOs, wheres BPCS naturally have a limit here. Quote: Now my challenge question: Suppose I have two accounts. Can I transfer assets (say +5 implants) from my main account to my alt account without leaving an audit trace, and without creating a large number of bogus contracts to "sanitize" the record? As VV pointed out, that's pretty easy: meet at a moon or somewhere and drop a can with the items for the other to pick up. Originally by: Calypsa Aeurelieus It's been forever and a day since I used the feature. But I suppose if Character A was on one account and Character B on another you could use the trade window in station, as IIRC the trade window doesn't keep a log like a regular market/contract transaction. This leaves a trace in the wallet journal API as "Player Trading". -- EVEWalletAware - an offline wallet manager
RAW23	Posted - 2010.10.10 16:46:00 - [45] @Calypsa - Could you tell us a little bit about your relationships with the other CEO's in your alliance?
Yendor Widdershins Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2010.10.10 19:38:00 - [46] Originally by: Jin Natha Using the trade window adds a "direct trade between [name] and [name]" entry to both wallet journals. Dumping stuff into a jetcan with one character and retrieving it with another would presumably be less traceable. Right on both counts. Another method I haven't seen mentioned yet: The main character abandons ship; the alt character flys in a pod and enters the ship. Ship + cargo have now been transferred with no audit trace.
Michela Bosun Shipyards	Posted - 2010.10.10 22:40:00 - [47] Originally by: Gabriel Virtus Originally by: Michela OK, here's where I call shenanigans. The whole notion of someone being asked to publicly post their full API key is ridiculous. At a certain point, you must take a leap of faith/trust. If you are unwilling to do so, just don't trust their results. Why is that ridiculous? I thought VV pointed out a lot of very valid reasons why a legitimate person would not want to post their full API key publicly. You either did read it or didn't comprehend it. Go back and read it again. Know where all the auditor's loot is will not help you to trust them. It just opens up the auditor to all kinds of trouble.
eliaja	Posted - 2010.10.11 18:59:00 - [48] Quote: personally i think most of the auditors if not all are scam artist an are better at it remember ebank & dbank. There is (sadly) _1_ auditor ATM which is me and I dare, challenge and even bet against you about you managing to find record of mine supporting EBANK in "unsuspicious times before their crack". Which is kind of sad because I really appreciated Athre's (in many respects) and even Hexxx's MD works. whatever YOU did or didnt do makes no difference the process as a whole has shattered all if any confidence into what services auditors provide.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.10.11 19:11:00 - [49] Originally by: eliaja Quote: personally i think most of the auditors if not all are scam artist an are better at it remember ebank & dbank. There is (sadly) _1_ auditor ATM which is me and I dare, challenge and even bet against you about you managing to find record of mine supporting EBANK in "unsuspicious times before their crack". Which is kind of sad because I really appreciated Athre's (in many respects) and even Hexxx's MD works. whatever YOU did or didnt do makes no difference the process as a whole has shattered all if any confidence into what services auditors provide. Just out of academical curiosity, who were those ebil auditors you call in cause? Could you please list 3-4 threads where they did these abominable things you talk about? - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
eliaja	Posted - 2010.10.11 19:32:00 - [50] Edited by: eliaja on 11/10/2010 19:35:16 Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Originally by: eliaja Quote: personally i think most of the auditors if not all are scam artist an are better at it remember ebank & dbank. There is (sadly) _1_ auditor ATM which is me and I dare, challenge and even bet against you about you managing to find record of mine supporting EBANK in "unsuspicious times before their crack". Which is kind of sad because I really appreciated Athre's (in many respects) and even Hexxx's MD works. whatever YOU did or didnt do makes no difference the process as a whole has shattered all if any confidence into what services auditors provide. Just out of academical curiosity, who were those ebil auditors you call in cause? Could you please list 3-4 threads where they did these abominable things you talk about? lol i need threads to prove the ebank an dbank debacle?
SetrakDark Northstar Cabal R.A.G.E	Posted - 2010.10.11 19:59:00 - [51] Originally by: eliaja lol i need threads to prove the ebank an dbank debacle? No, you need to show where auditing as a profession in Eve played a role in those debacles. As someone well-versed in the history of MD debacles I would also like to see this, since, as far as I know, it doesn't exist. If anything, all of the major failures on MD are support for auditing and not the opposite. Just to close the point here for myself, I think auditing is an insufficient solution to an insoluble problem. However, that doesn't justify unfairly and incorrectly maligning the few people who have tried and still do try to improve a system that chugs along despite its inherent flaws. Although I firmly believe that the entire investment system is inherently flawed, I also believe that the few people who have stepped up as auditors have helped to improve something that would still be around in an uglier form without them.
eliaja	Posted - 2010.10.11 23:39:00 - [52] Edited by: eliaja on 11/10/2010 23:42:10 Originally by: SetrakDark Originally by: eliaja lol i need threads to prove the ebank an dbank debacle? No, you need to show where auditing as a profession in Eve played a role in those debacles. As someone well-versed in the history of MD debacles I would also like to see this, since, as far as I know, it doesn't exist. If anything, all of the major failures on MD are support for auditing and not the opposite. Just to close the point here for myself, I think auditing is an insufficient solution to an insoluble problem. However, that doesn't justify unfairly and incorrectly maligning the few people who have tried and still do try to improve a system that chugs along despite its inherent flaws. Although I firmly believe that the entire investment system is inherently flawed, I also believe that the few people who have stepped up as auditors have helped to improve something that would still be around in an uglier form without them. I would like to formally apoligies to those that were offended by my comments earlier there is no problem with the auditing process. So lets just keep doing what we've been doing so far an hopefully it will work itself out. Ebank an dbank were not a scam an we should all be thankfull for the lessons we've learned about ipos/markets in eve. Furthermore i will make more isks due to market hicups because thats all they are an nothing more. now go back to sleep an remember never question the experts!
Gabriel Virtus hirr	Posted - 2010.10.12 02:01:00 - [53] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Random BS After reading your posts and responses for the last year or so, I have come to the conclusion that you are simply unable to understand many arguments put forward by various people, not just myself. You seem to be entirely unable to use even basic logic; alas, I am done trying. Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha So why didn't you post your full API when you tried convincing people to invest in you? I didnÆt ôtryö anything, my bond is full and running. There is a difference between something being ôridiculousö and making a balancing judgment. Can you distinguish these ideas? I ask you to think for at least an hour before responding. -GV
Calypsa Aeurelieus	Posted - 2010.10.17 20:36:00 - [54] Edited by: Calypsa Aeurelieus on 17/10/2010 20:37:49 @ Raw I am the executor of our alliance, which is quite new. I have known the CEO's of the other corporations in the alliance for a relatively short period of time, approximately 1 month for most of them. We do however have bi-weekly voice com meetings. I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "relationship" we are planning future endeavors for the alliance together and I believe that we are all generally trusting of one another... I do not know any of them in a real-life capacity though. I hope that answers your question.
RAW23	Posted - 2010.10.17 22:44:00 - [55] Originally by: Calypsa Aeurelieus Edited by: Calypsa Aeurelieus on 17/10/2010 20:37:49 @ Raw I am the executor of our alliance, which is quite new. I have known the CEO's of the other corporations in the alliance for a relatively short period of time, approximately 1 month for most of them. We do however have bi-weekly voice com meetings. I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "relationship" we are planning future endeavors for the alliance together and I believe that we are all generally trusting of one another... I do not know any of them in a real-life capacity though. I hope that answers your question. The reason I ask is because one of your fellow CEO's ran an extremely suspicious offering here on MD not long ago. You might want to look into that as suspicion, unfortunately, rubs off on you as a colleague of theirs, especially given your chosen new profession. Personally, I would want to see THAT offering audited by an establlished figure to make sure it was legit and not, as it looked, some form of scam before I would be willing to put my faith in someone else closely related. The CEO in question is Selena Hoeeg.
Noxford	Posted - 2010.10.18 03:40:00 - [56] Originally by: ****z If your audits are anything like your web design, I wouldn't hire you. QTF. LOL. I think that was the website I made back in 1998 when I was in high school computer class. I mean, uhh, you can come audit me if you like. I doubt you'd like my review unless you're some fresh business/cpa graduate who hobbies in learning the legacy way of doing rapid evolving things. _____________________________ - Noxford Realtor Services -
Calypsa Aeurelieus	Posted - 2010.10.18 03:54:00 - [57] Raw, I just read the thread you were speaking about. I did not know about that investment until you had mentioned it, I will however say that from what I know about Selena they are true to their word. They hold weekly operations for mining, and I know that have atleast 1 capital BPO currently that they are using. I only know so much about other corporations, I do know they have not done me wrong and I don't think they've done investors wrong. If they did and someone can prove it I have no problem voting them out of the alliance. I understand that it's not easy to accept change or something new, especially with how easy it is for anyone to run off with virutal money. However that's why when I opened this thread I said I'm willing to do an audit and have another auditor do one alongside, and then at the end people can compare our findings and will hopefully see after a few times of that, that I am here to audit, nothing more, nothing less.
RAW23	Posted - 2010.10.18 11:30:00 - [58] Edited by: RAW23 on 18/10/2010 11:32:47 Originally by: Calypsa Aeurelieus Raw, I just read the thread you were speaking about. I did not know about that investment until you had mentioned it, I will however say that from what I know about Selena they are true to their word. They hold weekly operations for mining, and I know that have atleast 1 capital BPO currently that they are using. I only know so much about other corporations, I do know they have not done me wrong and I don't think they've done investors wrong. If they did and someone can prove it I have no problem voting them out of the alliance. I understand that it's not easy to accept change or something new, especially with how easy it is for anyone to run off with virutal money. However that's why when I opened this thread I said I'm willing to do an audit and have another auditor do one alongside, and then at the end people can compare our findings and will hopefully see after a few times of that, that I am here to audit, nothing more, nothing less. Don't get me wrong. Change doesn't worry me and I have no definitive reason to believe that Selena's offering is a scam. However, it was a very suspicious offering for a number of reasons. In fact, it may be a useful exercise for you as a new auditor to go through her threads and try to identify why potential investors might have been extremely wary of it. Guilt by association is a terrible thing and I would not want to say that no one can be an auditor if they have any relationship with someone suspicious. However, I'm sure you can see why a potential new auditor coming from an organisation that already looks a bit dodgy would give people pause for thought and why it is important to remove any possible questions on this issue. It will not be enough to do a few thorough audits, unfortunately. You really do need, from my perspective at least, to clear up any remaining questions surrounding your fellow CEO before I will be able to take your solo work seriously. As I say, a good place to start would be to identify the suspicious elements in Selena's offering and try to find some way of demonstrating that peoples' fears about it are unfounded.
Calypsa Aeurelieus	Posted - 2010.10.18 13:22:00 - [59] Edited by: Calypsa Aeurelieus on 18/10/2010 13:24:13 Raw, I do completely understand where you are coming from; and I do appreciate the fact that you are going about this in a logical sense as opposed to the finger pointing. What I will do is speak to Selena next time I catch them on TS, and I will ask if they would mind me doing an audit of their offering for both consistency in what they were offering vs. what is being done, and to try to alleviate fears & concerns that were raised in the offering by having the factual answers.
AtheistOfFail Caldari	Posted - 2010.10.18 13:58:00 - [60] Send me a mail when you're on next time, k?

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