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Bottled Brain	Posted - 2005.01.04 16:12:00 - [31] Players later invented the "container mining" method after noticing that the containers could hold way more than any cargo hold. This use for the containers was never intended and it has the obvious flaw that any player with a reduced sense of right and wrong can come by and take everything from the container and no one can do anything about it. Why ist it so easy to steal ore?
Bhaal	Posted - 2005.01.04 16:23:00 - [32] Quote: Players later invented the "container mining" method after noticing that the containers could hold way more than any cargo hold. This use for the containers was never intended and it has the obvious flaw that any player with a reduced sense of right and wrong can come by and take everything from the container and no one can do anything about it. The point of the thread was to ask if mining turned out the way CCP envisioned... I think it's clear it is not what they originally had in mind, because of jet can mining, ore theifs, and Apoc mining ships... It turned out this way because CCP ignored the mining aspects of the game to concentrate on the combat side of the game... Both jet cans & ore theifs have to go, and a more robust system that allows solo & group miners to mine with efficiency & less boredom is required... ------------------------------------------------ "for piece sakes!"
Bsport	Posted - 2005.01.04 16:29:00 - [33] Edited by: Bsport on 04/01/2005 16:34:38 i always find a nice quiet system, the one i currently mine in you need to go through a 0.4 to get there and its some distance from the highway, so the chances of getting a ore thief are very slim, but i've come to accept it if it does happen and the best way to get rid of jet cans is to make a super size sec can that requires a special sized ship to move and anchor, also a ore indy, which someone above mentioned, which could allow ore to be directly dumped into a indy should u be ganged with the pilot -------- \|~~~\| I run out of money, so bunny has been \| OIL \| grounded down to make grease for my \|____\| rifter- poor bunny
Matthew	Posted - 2005.01.04 16:30:00 - [34] Originally by: Avon Miners have options open to them to completely prevent ore theft. They choose not to use them. The most profitable way for them to opperate runs the risk of ore theft. They know this risk. They accept this risk. NPC hunters have the option open to them to completely avoid player pirates. They choose not to use them. The most profitable way for them to operate runs the risk of player pirates attacking them. They know this risk. They accept this risk. They have the ability to fight back against this risk This last point is very important. It means the NPC hunter is assuming risk, but has the ability to combat this risk whilst still performing their activity as they desire. They are still exposing themselves to risk, but when the roll of the dice comes round and that risk hits them, they have a chance to fight back against it for the right to continue their activity as they desire. The miner has no such ability. When the roll of the dice comes up, the miner has to sit back and accept it, without any way of fighting back. I am not arguing against the risk of the roll of the dice coming up. I am arguing against being forced to sit back and take it. Originally by: Avon When the thief (the balancing factor which allowed jet-can mining to remain in the game).... I won't bother quoting the old dev quote you keep wheeling out in these arguments to support this, you've posted it enough already. What I would do is point out that jet cans have ownership information attached to them, and ore thief tagging has been stated as an intended feature by CCP, which suggests the dev stance on jetcan mining has shifted in the many months since your quote. CCP intend ore thief tagging, it's simply one of the many features of exodus that they didn't get in with the initial release. Originally by: Avon When the thief (the balancing factor which allowed jet-can mining to remain in the game) takes their ore, they want to then have the right to murder? They want to change the stakes after the fact. If you really think that criminally flagging people who take from your can is the solution, then I hope you see the day that happens. Frankly I will be having a ball setting people up, and I am sure lots of other people will too. I would much prefer I didn't have to murder the ore thief to get retribution. I would be quite happy to let customs chase him about and fine/imprison/execute him as they saw fit. But this is Eve, not real life, and the standard, established method of retribution against another player is armed combat. I'm sure you will have great fun baiting people into stealing your stuff so you can shoot them. Sure, inexperienced/ill-informed players will be caught out for the first week. But non-rat-loot jet cans all have corp tags attached to them, it's not hard to check before you make a pick-up. Overall it will be no worse than the current problems with pirates luring the inexperienced into ganging with them. And I'm sure you'll also go around stealing people's stuff in your pvp battleship to bait people into attacking you. Again, this introduces no new problems to any player with an ounce of sense. The risk of the other bloke being able to beat you is nothing new in combat. Just cause the miner could attack you doesn't mean they have to. As for changing the stakes after the fact, is the NPC hunter changing the stakes by fighting back against a pirate? Is he chaning the stakes by running away and denying the pirate his kill and loot? Or should he meekly accept that his number is up and sit there without activating a module whilst the pirate kills him?
Sorja	Posted - 2005.01.04 16:35:00 - [35] As I already suggested, use the tech already ingame: 1¦ Deploy a 30.000 m¦ secure can the same way a POS station vault is deployed 2¦ Only the same corp/gang who deployed the container can open/dump/move it
babyblue	Posted - 2005.01.04 16:42:00 - [36] Yup and just as you can "auto reject" gang invites, there should be an "auto reject" for opening another corps can. I don't think the concord idea really runs. I would prefer to have the standard criminal flag timer to prevent them escaping from the system and to give others a chance to find them (for a set period of time). At least then once the ore is stolen you'll both have fun trying to find the thief. At the moment its as if someone can just walk up and take your wallet (perhaps you placed it on the table in front of you) and you can't do a damned thing about it no matter if you are built like Dorian Yates or Norman Wisdom. Also, this idea would not affect macro miners as the thief could just steal the ore and then sit at a planet to wait out the timer, before docking, rinsing and repeating. The macro miner is not going to chase them down (unless this is an unbelievably complex and intelligent macro). As for battleships mining in 1.0, 0.9 systems, in all honesty, how many genuine n00bs do you think are there coming into this game each week? And how many of them are more than able to fill their cargo with low grade ore from established, if raped, asteroid belts? There is no problem with n00b systems being empty. The majority of n00bs in Eve are alts!
Avon	Posted - 2005.01.04 16:43:00 - [37] Matthew. Your whole arguement about NPC hunting is invalid. NPC hunters can respond to player pirates because they move to lower security status systems for improved rewards. Miners can do exactly the same thing. Miners are not willing to accept increased risk for higher rewards. They want to get as much as possible for zero risk. ______________________________________________ Never argue with idiots. They will just drag it down to their level, and then beat you through experience.
MaiLina KaTar	Posted - 2005.01.04 16:48:00 - [38] Originally by: Bhaal Both jet cans & ore theifs have to go, and a more robust system that allows solo & group miners to mine with efficiency & less boredom is required... Exactly. I pretty much start playing Eve as soon as I come home from work. Now I don't mine that much but there are times where I have to do it together with my corpmates because if we wouldn't do it... well... no minerals no fun. Now whenever I come home after a day of work and I sit down in front of my puter to log into eve it always becomes very hard to doubleclick that eve icon when I know I'll have to mine for at least two hours. What I'm trying to say is: There is an activity in this game that makes me actually hesitate to log in... and that activity is called mining. It's not the fact that I have to aquire minerals to get stuff done. The sheer boredom is the reason. You sit there for hours on end doing nothing but a drag and drop every 3 minutes, for hours on end. You also can't use your puter for anything else (unless you're running windowed and/or on dualscreen) so you sit there having to get yourself a book or something so that you don't go crazy sitting in front of a computergame that's actually supposed to be worth my time. When mining, I never feel like Eve's worth my time. The only thing that goes through my mind is "goddamn you CCP for putting this crap-a-delic feature into an otherwise stunning and extremely immersive game". Then you have that "oh hell no I'll never play that game" aspect. You don't know what that is? Well let me try to explain: I live in a house together with my brother. We have our computers in the basement where we usually hang with 3-6 guys, playing games most of the times. By now I have tried to sweet-talk all of my friends into playing Eve several times... all of them... repeatedly. I actually did it to the point where whenever I even mention the game they threaten to *****slap me and tape my mouth Now guess what they say whenever I ask them about Eve and why they won't at least try it out to see if they like it... go figure. I tell them "the game really rocks you should check it out". The answer is: "well if it's so much fun then why the hell are you sitting there reading the new Tom Clancy?!". Eve is such a great game. It has many great features, a very immersive background story and a community where 674 people donate a whooping 18.459 dollars for people in need of help... but there's this one feature that effectively makes people quit the game or not even try it out in the first place. Mining in its current form has to go asap. Nuff said. Mai's Idealog
Andrue	Posted - 2005.01.04 16:51:00 - [39] Thanks for all the useful comments but can I ask that those of you delving (yet again) into the murky issue of ore thievery please take the discussion to another thread? The original intent of the thread (clearly indicated in my original message) was to discuss whether what we currently do is what CCP originally intended. I was hoping to incourage a discussion on the gameplay merits of mining with a possible view to working out how to fix the current situation. There have already been more than enough threads on the subject so hijacking this thread seems a little unneccesary. If the moderators would like to remove the bits relating to ore theft I would have no objection. It'd certainly be better than locking the thread because it degenerates into that very topic :) -- (Battle hardened miner) [Brackley, UK] WARNING:This post may contain large doses of reality.
Discorporation	Posted - 2005.01.04 16:54:00 - [40] Offer alternatives. [Heterocephalus glaber]
Avon	Posted - 2005.01.04 16:58:00 - [41] Originally by: MaiLina KaTar Originally by: Bhaal Both jet cans & ore theifs have to go, and a more robust system that allows solo & group miners to mine with efficiency & less boredom is required... Exactly. I pretty much start playing Eve as soon as I come home from work. Now I don't mine that much but there are times where I have to do it together with my corpmates because if we wouldn't do it... well... no minerals no fun. Now whenever I come home after a day of work and I sit down in front of my puter to log into eve it always becomes very hard to doubleclick that eve icon when I know I'll have to mine for at least two hours. What I'm trying to say is: There is an activity in this game that makes me actually hesitate to log in... and that activity is called mining. It's not the fact that I have to aquire minerals to get stuff done. The sheer boredom is the reason. You sit there for hours on end doing nothing but a drag and drop every 3 minutes, for hours on end. You also can't use your puter for anything else (unless you're running windowed and/or on dualscreen) so you sit there having to get yourself a book or something so that you don't go crazy sitting in front of a computergame that's actually supposed to be worth my time. When mining, I never feel like Eve's worth my time. The only thing that goes through my mind is "goddamn you CCP for putting this crap-a-delic feature into an otherwise stunning and extremely immersive game". Then you have that "oh hell no I'll never play that game" aspect. You don't know what that is? Well let me try to explain: I live in a house together with my brother. We have our computers in the basement where we usually hang with 3-6 guys, playing games most of the times. By now I have tried to sweet-talk all of my friends into playing Eve several times... all of them... repeatedly. I actually did it to the point where whenever I even mention the game they threaten to *****slap me and tape my mouth Now guess what they say whenever I ask them about Eve and why they won't at least try it out to see if they like it... go figure. I tell them "the game really rocks you should check it out". The answer is: "well if it's so much fun then why the hell are you sitting there reading the new Tom Clancy?!". Eve is such a great game. It has many great features, a very immersive background story and a community where 674 people donate a whooping 18.459 dollars for people in need of help... but there's this one feature that effectively makes people quit the game or not even try it out in the first place. Mining in its current form has to go asap. Nuff said. I never mine. I have no alts that mine. Plenty of ways to make money, and ISK is all you need to get anything you want. :D ______________________________________________ Never argue with idiots. They will just drag it down to their level, and then beat you through experience.
Bhaal	Posted - 2005.01.04 17:05:00 - [42] Quote: Offer alternatives. I have ------------------------------------------------ "for piece sakes!"
Matthew	Posted - 2005.01.04 17:09:00 - [43] Originally by: Avon Matthew. Your whole arguement about NPC hunting is invalid. NPC hunters can respond to player pirates because they move to lower security status systems for improved rewards. Miners can do exactly the same thing. Right, so moving to lower security space for improved rewards at greater risk earns me the right to fight back, but choosing to use jetcans over secure cans for improved rewards at greater risk does not? Please explain the logic of this argument, as I am failing to get it. Originally by: Avon Miners are not willing to accept increased risk for higher rewards. They want to get as much as possible for zero risk. On the contrary, I am perfectly willing to accept the risk of ore theft for the higher reward of jetcan mining. What I am not prepared to accept is that I am not allowed to fight back against this threat. Every other risk in every other profession I can think of allows you some means to fight back against it, why shouldn't this one? Being able to fight back does not make ore theft impossible, only slightly more difficult than drifing up to a can in your defenceless indy. The risk of theft will still be there. And of course I want as much as possible for zero risk. Every player does, even if they consider their reward "the thrill of combat" or "the joy of role-playing", or even "annoying other players" rather than the easily measurable pile of isk. If I was asking for ore theft to be banned, then that would be me trying to boost my own profession selfishly, and gain my rewards for no risk. But that is not what I am asking. All I want is for the risk of ore thieves to be balanced with the risks every other profession faces by having the ability to fight back.
Bhaal	Posted - 2005.01.04 17:10:00 - [44] Quote: I never mine. I have no alts that mine. Then your input is not required or desired in a discussion about mining... ------------------------------------------------ "for piece sakes!"
Discorporation	Posted - 2005.01.04 17:11:00 - [45] Originally by: Bhaal Quote: Offer alternatives. I have "lack of foresight & lack of attention" "Disturbing lack of creativity" "whether pirates want to hear it or not." Y'know, if you'd make suggestions that are a lil' less hostile, I think you'd do much better. Your idea does nothing to alleviate boredom, btw [Heterocephalus glaber]
Andrue	Posted - 2005.01.04 17:14:00 - [46] Originally by: Discorporation Offer alternatives. For mining? One that I like (but it's going to be too complex for CCP to implement I expect) is an mining base ship. This would be a ship that didn't require player intervention and could just sit in a belt operating three or four mining drones. The ship has a large but not excessively so cargo hold. I'd guess at 24hour's worth of ore storage at the base skill level. More as you get higher skills. The ship is the slowest, most combersome ship in the game. It barely deserves to be called movable. When the shield drops below 100% it stops operating apart from sheild regeneration. I'm not sure what the drones do at this point but they shouldn't dock and will therefore remain outside and vulnerable. You can't even move it until the shield returns to 100% The ship has quite good armour, hull and shield but if left alone in a 0.0 belt is unlikely to last more than a couple of days. The drones should suffer damage over time. The mothership can repair this but needs a steady supply of components. These should be a bit rare neccessitating that the owner fly around to find them rather than always going to the same station. The purpose of all this? It would introduce a logistical challenge to mining while removing the tedium. You'd have to coordinate part stocking, ore collection. You'd have to relocate the base ship as local 'roids were mined out. Imagine having three or four of these scattered around the galaxy. I'm sure that with some serious thought a system could be designed that would give enough complexity to keep anyone happy and provide an opportunity to demonstrate logistical skill. -- (Battle hardened miner) [Brackley, UK] WARNING:This post may contain large doses of reality.
Discorporation	Posted - 2005.01.04 17:17:00 - [47] Andrue: That's basically a glofied mining macro. Not going to happen. Offer a better alternative [Heterocephalus glaber]
Bhaal	Posted - 2005.01.04 17:18:00 - [48] Edited by: Bhaal on 04/01/2005 17:20:59 Quote: Your idea does nothing to alleviate boredom, btw That's the tough one... I think if you jusk give miners more gadjets to tinker with etc, it would go a long way... Mining barges have helped revitalize some miners I suspect, for a time anyway... As far as my attitude in the suggestion. I as a paying subscriber do harbor some resentment towards CCP for ignoring these issues, while blatantly focusing on only a portion of the game basically from launch to Exodus... And to be honest, CCP is not going to care about my attitude... Either they like the idea and give it some thought, or dismiss it based on its merrit... ------------------------------------------------ "for piece sakes!"
Andrue	Posted - 2005.01.04 17:23:00 - [49] Originally by: Discorporation Andrue: That's basically a glofied mining macro. Not going to happen. Offer a better alternative I don't think it is. Did you miss the bit about needing components and needing to empty the base ship? I'm not talking once a month, here. I'm talking pretty much every day. I'm invisaging miners having to spend almost all their time flying around to attend to the baseships. I suppose you could write a macro to take care of picking up the ore (but it'd be tricky) but if components need to be searched out I defy anyone to write a macro to do that. My idea would require miners to log in and attend to their operations for a couple of hours every day or so. -- (Battle hardened miner) [Brackley, UK] WARNING:This post may contain large doses of reality.
Discorporation	Posted - 2005.01.04 17:27:00 - [50] Originally by: Bhaal I think if you jusk give miners more gadjets to tinker with etc, it would go a long way... New gadgets are going to boil down to lock 'roid, click and drag to cargo. if you remove/automate click n' dragging to cargo, you are essentially creating a macro (only ingame) Originally by: Bhaal Mining barges have helped revitalize some miners I suspect, for a time anyway... As far as my attitude in the suggestion. I as a paying subscriber do harbor some resentment towards CCP for ignoring these issues, while blatantly focusing on only a portion of the game basically from launch to Exodus... And to be honest, CCP is not going to care about my attitude... Either they like the idea and give it some thought, or dismiss it based on its merrit... Mining works great. No need to adjust it, as a form of resource gathering. Only thing it can use is opening ore thieves up to player repercussions through the CrimFlagging/Contraband system and an option in the ingame browser to play Flash games [Heterocephalus glaber]
Discorporation	Posted - 2005.01.04 17:28:00 - [51] Originally by: Andrue I don't think it is. Did you miss the bit about needing components and needing to empty the base ship? I'm not talking once a month, here. I'm talking pretty much every day. I'm invisaging miners having to spend almost all their time flying around to attend to the baseships. I suppose you could write a macro to take care of picking up the ore (but it'd be tricky) but if components need to be searched out I defy anyone to write a macro to do that. My idea would require miners to log in and attend to their operations for a couple of hours every day or so. I skipped over the various details. It boils down to: Park hoover in belt, Haul minerals away. It's basically a Moon Miner, but for belts. [Heterocephalus glaber]
MaiLina KaTar	Posted - 2005.01.04 17:31:00 - [52] Originally by: Avon I never mine. I have no alts that mine. Plenty of ways to make money, and ISK is all you need to get anything you want. :D Plenty of ways to make ISK, only one way to get minerals. Not that you're actually making a point with that statement. Originally by: "Discorporation" Offer alternatives Loads of suggestions in Idea Labs. Some of them pretty much retarded, others well thought out. After all it's the guys at CCP who get payed though. Mai's Idealog
Discorporation	Posted - 2005.01.04 17:36:00 - [53] Originally by: MaiLina KaTar Plenty of ways to make ISK, only one way to get minerals. Not that you're actually making a point with that statement. Damn, better tell all the NPC hunters they should stop refining their worthless loot, then =/ Originally by: MaiLina KaTar Loads of suggestions in Idea Labs. Some of them pretty much retarded, others well thought out. After all it's the guys at CCP who get payed though. No-one looks in the Idea Lab. [Heterocephalus glaber]
DogTyred	Posted - 2005.01.04 17:39:00 - [54] How about a high Slot item that you could fit in place of a miner 2. summit like an ore compressor or refiner that would facilitate the compression or refining of ore into a smaller area. so allowing miners to hold more in theyre hold. you would have to loose some mining ability but would gain capacity. or a towable barge like a trailor that u simply hook to the back of your apoc...
Scroto Baggins	Posted - 2005.01.04 18:26:00 - [55] Originally by: MaiLina KaTar Regardless of the economical aspects... let's be honest here: Mining sucks! You only do it because you have to and when you do it it's boring as hell. Speak for yourself. I love mining just the way it is. The only reason I even play Eve is because of AFK Mining. Why should there be some pointless stuff to click on in order to simply mine stuff? The whole point of mining is to find a nice juicy roid, start zapping it, and then go take care of RL stuff. If you want a timesink that glues you to your computer, try resource collecting in any other MMORPG out there.
Wild Banshee	Posted - 2005.01.05 12:09:00 - [56] Originally by: DogTyred How about a high Slot item that you could fit in place of a miner 2. summit like an ore compressor or refiner that would facilitate the compression or refining of ore into a smaller area. so allowing miners to hold more in theyre hold. you would have to loose some mining ability but would gain capacity. or a towable barge like a trailor that u simply hook to the back of your apoc... Yeah, a Hi-Slot "Ore Transfer Array". When both miner and hauler have one fitted the miner(s) transfer the ore to the targeted hauler instead of their own cargo hold. For the "price" of decreased mining output on the mining ships (one mining laser less) the gain is still worth the efforts. No more boring drag an drop, no more jetcans. Who then still uses jetcans can't complain that CCP hasn't provided the right tools.
Avon	Posted - 2005.01.05 12:46:00 - [57] Originally by: Discorporation Originally by: MaiLina KaTar Plenty of ways to make ISK, only one way to get minerals. Not that you're actually making a point with that statement. Damn, better tell all the NPC hunters they should stop refining their worthless loot, then =/ Yeah, not to mention that stuff you get from deadspace - those funny glittery, rocky, crystaly type thingmies. I have vast amounts of minerals from refining that stuff. (Lots of Zyd I notice - I'm sure that means something to someone). ______________________________________________ Never argue with idiots. They will just drag it down to their level, and then beat you through experience.
MaiLina KaTar	Posted - 2005.01.05 13:11:00 - [58] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Discorporation Originally by: MaiLina KaTar Plenty of ways to make ISK, only one way to get minerals. Not that you're actually making a point with that statement. Damn, better tell all the NPC hunters they should stop refining their worthless loot, then =/ Yeah, not to mention that stuff you get from deadspace - those funny glittery, rocky, crystaly type thingmies. I have vast amounts of minerals from refining that stuff. (Lots of Zyd I notice - I'm sure that means something to someone). Oh well then why don`t we all supply the entire eve economy with minerals from refined items This is turning into stupid nitpicking so I'm outa here. Obviously you guys think that sitting in front of your screen for hours doing nothing but dragging and dropping is good gameplay so may the macros be with you while you're AFK. We have a feature in this game that makes people go AFK or use macros. You wanna tell me everything's fine with that? If yes then sorry but you have no idea what computergames are all about. Cheers. Mai's Idealog
Ricdic	Posted - 2005.01.05 13:18:00 - [59] I had the exact same problem with mining being boring. So then i stopped mining. Problem solved Nuff Said
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2005.01.05 13:21:00 - [60] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Discorporation Originally by: MaiLina KaTar Plenty of ways to make ISK, only one way to get minerals. Not that you're actually making a point with that statement. Damn, better tell all the NPC hunters they should stop refining their worthless loot, then =/ Yeah, not to mention that stuff you get from deadspace - those funny glittery, rocky, crystaly type thingmies. I have vast amounts of minerals from refining that stuff. (Lots of Zyd I notice - I'm sure that means something to someone). I only get those from structures and then only 1 each. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!

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