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Andrue	Posted - 2005.01.04 11:49:00 - [1] The current situation is silly IMO and I wonder what CCP's original intention was with this facet of the game. What was their vision for mining? The current situation ISTM is just wrong for two reasons: The use of jet cans:Okay let's try not to start yet another ruddy jet can thread but I don't know of any 'professional' miners who know of an acceptable solution to using them. The game play:Did CCP really think we'd spend hour after hour performing drag and drop? Or did they think we'd mine for ten minutes, fly to the station, change ships, fly back, grab from secure can, fly to station, change ships, fly back? Or have we got it all completely wrong? Did CCP think that mining would only ever be a group activity and we're all missing the point in trying to make a personal career out of mining? Because, frankly, the gameplay at present on the one hand supports the lone miner (it's a very viable career even in Empire) but it also makes the miner deal with boredom, RSI the frustation of ore theft or having to change ships every ten minutes (blaarrrrp - please wait while your ship enters the hangar). So - anyone know what CCP's intentions were? -- (Battle hardened miner) [Brackley, UK] WARNING:This post may contain large doses of reality.
pshepherd	Posted - 2005.01.04 11:52:00 - [2] mining in groups lets you mine far fast, and have a dedicated hauler. Also, keep in mind that the chance of you meeting an ore thief away from the main systems is less than 1%.
Tharim	Posted - 2005.01.04 11:52:00 - [3] You know, i have been thinking exactly the same. And have found that the only logical thing to do is to not mine, and let other people deal with it
EagleFour	Posted - 2005.01.04 11:56:00 - [4] sad to say, since i am a one man corp and have had stuff stolen from me so many times in the past battleships etc. That i stopped allowing people in my corp. I mine for myself. Some of those issues you mentioned are alleviated by multiple accounts. I know many people cant afford them but i am fortunate enough to have three. With that being said i think its a money issue. since i elected to get more than one account i went from mining a battleship every 4 months to mining an APOC in 3 days using only common ore mining and selling some of it for the pricey rares. So my guess is its a money issue. As far as those stupid messages you get while mining furiously Entering hangar You can add XXX the container is imploding 1723 units of plag in you hold but the top calue shows 0.0m3 Opening a can that shows 11,000m3 but nothing in it. Need i go on with this frustration. I had read something from the devs once that jet cans were never intended for the use they are today. JOBS - Got Moin?
Avon	Posted - 2005.01.04 11:57:00 - [5] Edited by: Avon on 04/01/2005 11:57:01 Originally CCP intended people would mine to their ships hold. ______________________________________________ Never argue with idiots. They will just drag it down to their level, and then beat you through experience.
Bhaal	Posted - 2005.01.04 12:12:00 - [6] Edited by: Bhaal on 04/01/2005 12:12:59 CCP never really clearly thought the whole process through... What AVON says is correct. CCP intended miners to use their cargo holds... Players soon realized this was quite the joke, and jet can mining was born. If jet can mining & insta BM's were to be taken away, the economy would die. If mining is made any more difficult or boring than it already is(Removal of insta's & jet cans) as many such as Avon request, then we don't need to worry about the BPO lottery, POS', mineral prices, etc... The game will die... If CCP truly intended players to mine in their holds, then they should have paid more attention to the needs of miners early on instead of allowing jet can mining, they were too busy worrying about PvP combat, and fixing marra/passari type issues. They neglected the largest proffession in EVE, mining. CCP brought this upon themselves. If they would have come up with a more robust set of skills & ships for mining early on in the game, they would not have this problem where removal of jet can mining & insta BM's is a game killer. Two things that were not intended, if now taken away would kill the game, is poor game design IMO... Mining barges, & ore haulers, whereby miners can dump ore directly in to others' cargo holds etc, should have been in game from the start... Now CCP has quite the debacle on their hands... Instead, CCP gave us Indy's & a few lame mining ships (so people turned to Battleships for mining!) with too small of cargo holds, and the jet can "exploit" and they left it that way for almost 2 years... That is neglect people, plain & simple... ------------------------------------------------ "for piece sakes!"
Stuart Ward	Posted - 2005.01.04 12:27:00 - [7] Originally by: EagleFour mining an APOC in 3 days using only common ore mining and selling some of it for the pricey rares. Can anybody say "Macro Miner" !!!
Riddari	Posted - 2005.01.04 12:31:00 - [8] Originally by: Stuart Ward Originally by: EagleFour mining an APOC in 3 days using only common ore mining and selling some of it for the pricey rares. Can anybody say "Macro Miner" !!! Umm no, people often use a weekend to mine the common stuff for a battleship. Without the use of macroes but with the use of 2 or more accounts + buddies. ¼©¼ a history
Stuart Ward	Posted - 2005.01.04 12:56:00 - [9] Over 100 million isk in common mins without a macro ? Thats some serious drag and drop action without a macro in 3 days
Spitfire IX	Posted - 2005.01.04 12:58:00 - [10] Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 04/01/2005 11:57:01 Originally CCP intended people would mine to their ships hold. Then tell me why is there a section in the beginner tutorial about mining and jettisoning ore?
Kardose Plathian	Posted - 2005.01.04 13:04:00 - [11] Edited by: Kardose Plathian on 04/01/2005 13:05:32 Quote: Mining barges, & ore haulers, whereby miners can dump ore directly in to others' cargo holds etc You know I think everyone thinks that with in their first week of mining - I wonder why the Devs are against it? If anything it would encourage multiple accounts so you could have a hauler along side.
Andrue	Posted - 2005.01.04 13:05:00 - [12] Originally by: Stuart Ward Over 100 million isk in common mins without a macro ? Thats some serious drag and drop action without a macro in 3 days Hmmm. I can mine 4mil and change an hour in Empire if I can find Kernite (and I usually can). So 100mil would take 20 hours. That's an average of less than seven hours a day with one account. With three accounts that's two or three hours a day. But yeah - a lot of drag and drop and I guess that's a major part of the question:Would the devs be astonished that anyone would do that? Changing anything now certainly requires a great deal of thought. Take away jet cans and instas and yes, mining, ceases as a profession for the solo player. -- (Battle hardened miner) [Brackley, UK] WARNING:This post may contain large doses of reality.
Andrue	Posted - 2005.01.04 13:06:00 - [13] Originally by: Tharim You know, i have been thinking exactly the same. And have found that the only logical thing to do is to not mine, and let other people deal with it -- (Battle hardened miner) [Brackley, UK] WARNING:This post may contain large doses of reality.
Andrue	Posted - 2005.01.04 13:08:00 - [14] Originally by: EagleFour As far as those stupid messages you get while mining furiously Entering hangar You can add XXX the container is imploding 1723 units of plag in you hold but the top calue shows 0.0m3 Opening a can that shows 11,000m3 but nothing in it. The asteroid is depleted The asteroid is depleted The asteroid is depleted The asteroid is depleted The asteroid is depleted The asteroid is depleted The asteroid is depleted In various choral varieties. How many channels does your sound card support? Mine can apparently handle an Apoc's worth of Miner 2s :) -- (Battle hardened miner) [Brackley, UK] WARNING:This post may contain large doses of reality.
Andrue	Posted - 2005.01.04 13:08:00 - [15] Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 04/01/2005 11:57:01 Originally CCP intended people would mine to their ships hold. I suspect you're correct there. It makes sense given the mess mining has become. The problem of course is that if you forced that on miners now the profession would die. -- (Battle hardened miner) [Brackley, UK] WARNING:This post may contain large doses of reality.
Noriath	Posted - 2005.01.04 13:08:00 - [16] If jetcan mining were removed the economy wouldn't collapse, it would just force people to have a dedicated hauler - uhhm, I mean, second account. Anyways, the biggest Problem with mining is the fact that battleships do a better job at it then indys. If mining would have always been the work of civilian ships with large cargoholds the entire problem would have never existed in the first place. Plus Beltrats would not be just a minor inconvenience you just tank with your mining battleship, but acctually require you to bring someone to protect you... Whatever...
Avon	Posted - 2005.01.04 13:28:00 - [17] Originally by: Andrue Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 04/01/2005 11:57:01 Originally CCP intended people would mine to their ships hold. I suspect you're correct there. It makes sense given the mess mining has become. The problem of course is that if you forced that on miners now the profession would die. I agree with you. Devs stated that jet-can mining was not intended, but that as it had an associated risk (ore theft) it would be allowed to continue. Miners who moan that secure cans are too small should consider that they are much bigger than a ships hold, and that they are indeed a bonus over the 'intended' mining method. You can mine to your hold for zero risk You can mine to a secure can for miniscule risk You can mine to a jet-can for minimal risk. Ore thieves can only opperate if the miners allow them too (by accepting a bigger risk for a potentially higher profit). Miners do not have a 'right' to risk free jet-can mining. Nor is the issue of risk for the ore thief valid. The miners decide if the thieves can opperate. The situation as it stands is a compromise which favours increased profit for miners. The introduction of mining barges with large holds further increases the safe mining profit potential, although some people will still moan. The situation as it stands is actually quite good. It potentially punishes the greedy and lazy over the rest of the population, can't be bad. ______________________________________________ Never argue with idiots. They will just drag it down to their level, and then beat you through experience.
Medi'ka	Posted - 2005.01.04 13:59:00 - [18] here's the problem with mining to your cargo hold, even on mining barges (which only hold 1, 3, or 5, Ice by the way) It's a HUGE time sink. If CCP wanted to cut down on the Yield per min. why not just adjust the laser yield. Why force you to Insta Warp to a station, dock, unload, undock, instawarp back to your can, cont mining. It doesn't remove any of the boredom aspect. It just adds a time sink. most battle ships need like 7mil plus trit, evening Mining Veldspar, with a 1000m3 cargo hold, that would take days... the other way to look at this is... compare time vs isk running lvl 3 agent missions. many people have no problems soloing these missions at all with little risk to themselfs. yet they can net 1-2mil isk easily in an hour or two. I'm not sure you could do that mining without the use of Jetcans... i.e. forced to dock to unload ore from your cargo hold.
Avon	Posted - 2005.01.04 14:11:00 - [19] Originally by: Medi'ka here's the problem with mining to your cargo hold, even on mining barges (which only hold 1, 3, or 5, Ice by the way) It's a HUGE time sink. If CCP wanted to cut down on the Yield per min. why not just adjust the laser yield. Why force you to Insta Warp to a station, dock, unload, undock, instawarp back to your can, cont mining. It doesn't remove any of the boredom aspect. It just adds a time sink. most battle ships need like 7mil plus trit, evening Mining Veldspar, with a 1000m3 cargo hold, that would take days... the other way to look at this is... compare time vs isk running lvl 3 agent missions. many people have no problems soloing these missions at all with little risk to themselfs. yet they can net 1-2mil isk easily in an hour or two. I'm not sure you could do that mining without the use of Jetcans... i.e. forced to dock to unload ore from your cargo hold. I'm not arguing that. My point is simply that there is an increased risk with jet-can mining, and that is fair because there is also an increased reward. ______________________________________________ Never argue with idiots. They will just drag it down to their level, and then beat you through experience.
babyblue	Posted - 2005.01.04 14:14:00 - [20] Edited by: babyblue on 04/01/2005 14:14:59 Originally by: Riddari Originally by: Stuart Ward Originally by: EagleFour mining an APOC in 3 days using only common ore mining and selling some of it for the pricey rares. Can anybody say "Macro Miner" !!! Umm no, people often use a weekend to mine the common stuff for a battleship. Without the use of macroes but with the use of 2 or more accounts + buddies. Ya, I was recently in empire and mined for and built 1 megathron and 3 apocs. Took about six weeks to do all 4 (I have a full time job). But I did have 2 characters on the go (a miner/hauler/industry char and a miner char [me]). No macroing is needed, just a couple of battleships and a good low sec belt with phat roids in.
MaiLina KaTar	Posted - 2005.01.04 14:16:00 - [21] Regardless of the economical aspects... let's be honest here: Mining sucks! You only do it because you have to and when you do it it's boring as hell. You're sitting there longing for the final cycle after which you can finally stop this boring bs so that you can go and do something more interesting. Doesn't matter how many accounts you have or how fast you can mine or how many people you're mining with. It is and will stay boring until CCP do something to make it more interesting. To be honest I think there should be some kind of structure that you can anchor in a belt so that it mines for you. It should cost a hell of a lot of money and require some kind of expensive resource to keep it running (decaying mining lasers or something). Either that, or whatever else you can think of that would make mining require some kind of attention. The "if you don't like it don't do it" argument doesn't hold either. If everyone would share that opinion then nobody would be mining and the economy would die. Maybe people should do it though. Stop mining and wait for the economy to go **** up so that CCP finally realises that they need to do something about the single most crappy aspect of their game. Mai's Idealog
Bhaal	Posted - 2005.01.04 14:19:00 - [22] Edited by: Bhaal on 04/01/2005 14:23:13 Quote: My point is simply that there is an increased risk with jet-can mining, and that is fair because there is also an increased reward. It's far beyond that now AVON... Taking away jet can mining would have serious negative econimic consequences... If jet mining can was not intended, why doesn't CCP just remove that as an option? I'll tell you why, it would destroy the player run economy of the game... CCP has let this fester way too long, now they are stuck... I for one would like nothing better than to see jet can mining go, as it means the ore thieves would go as well... CCP just needs to put some manpower on the issue, and change the face of mining in this game... I think they are too scared to do that... ------------------------------------------------ "for piece sakes!"
V2GBR	Posted - 2005.01.04 14:19:00 - [23] Edited by: V2GBR on 04/01/2005 14:19:35 I see Avons care bear knowledge is showing again :) ---------- http://guc.webinventions.co.uk <-- GUC Site. www.webinventions.co.uk <-- My eve history.
MindBender	Posted - 2005.01.04 14:29:00 - [24] CCP Obviously intended jet can mining or they would never have made the jet cans as large as they are. What CCP did not intend was such large empire mining ops. This is the reason that they will not stop ore theives. Empire space was always intended for the new player and CCP expected and in fact has done everything in their power to force people out of empire as soon as they can survive there. Why is it you don't find ore theives in .4 and below? Because they can be shot on sight there without concord intervention.
Avon	Posted - 2005.01.04 14:35:00 - [25] Edited by: Avon on 04/01/2005 14:37:47 Originally by: MindBender CCP Obviously intended jet can mining or they would never have made the jet cans as large as they are. What CCP did not intend was such large empire mining ops. This is the reason that they will not stop ore theives. Empire space was always intended for the new player and CCP expected and in fact has done everything in their power to force people out of empire as soon as they can survive there. Why is it you don't find ore theives in .4 and below? Because they can be shot on sight there without concord intervention. You are wrong. Quote: Question Why is it so easy to steal ore ? Answer The regular containers were designed to jettison unwanted items into space or to hold loot from blown up ships. They were designed so that any player could take from them because that was essential for them to function as they were intended. Players later invented the "container mining" method after noticing that the containers could hold way more than any cargo hold. This use for the containers was never intended and it has the obvious flaw that any player with a reduced sense of right and wrong can come by and take everything from the container and no one can do anything about it. This risk should be known to all players and there will be no reimbursement for ore lost this way. Also, ore "theft" is not considered harassment so no punishment will be dealt out to those who choose to "steal". Players who are thinking of taking up a career as ore thiefs should note that they will face a lifetime of unpopularity and unhappiness as a result. CCP has decided to meet players halfway by implementing secure containers that can be bought on the market and have the advantage of being equipped with a password lock. These containers cost money and do not hold the vast amount of ore that the regular containers do. However, with good organization and frequent ore pickups using Industrial ships, they can be very useful for large scale mining operations. The bottom line is: If you use regular containers to store your ore you assume all the risk. Having your valuables floating in space in an unsecured container is equivalent to throwing money on the street. Should you lurk nearby and wait for someone to take the money and then attack him, the police would deal with you, not him. The same goes in Eve. If you attack a player who just took "your" ore from a regular container in a system with a security level of 0.5 or higher. You will be destroyed by Concord. ______________________________________________ Never argue with idiots. They will just drag it down to their level, and then beat you through experience.
Matthew	Posted - 2005.01.04 15:25:00 - [26] Originally by: Avon Ore thieves can only opperate if the miners allow them too (by accepting a bigger risk for a potentially higher profit). Miners do not have a 'right' to risk free jet-can mining. Nor is the issue of risk for the ore thief valid. The miners decide if the thieves can opperate. ok, Miners do not have a right to risk-free jetcan mining. So why are you arguing that ore thieves have a right to take the miners ore without risk? So, you say the miner decides if the thief can operate by deciding whether to jetcan mine or not, so the ore thief should not be exposed to risk from the miner. By the same argument, any bloke flying in a ship can decide if a pirate can operate by deciding whether to go into low-sec space or not. So, by your argument, anyone attacked by a pirate should not be allowed to present any risk to the pirate - and thus should be insta-ganked by concord if he tries to fire back. Yes, it is an extreme and silly example, but it is where the logic of your argument leads. Note that I am not arguing that the "bad guy" (ore thief/pirate) in either case should be prevented from attemtping their theft/killing, just that the activity should bear some risk, and the other party should have the ability to fight back. Originally by: Avon The situation as it stands is actually quite good. It potentially punishes the greedy and lazy over the rest of the population, can't be bad. So, who is more lazy and greedy, the miner who spends hours in the belt mining the ore, or the ore thief who rolls up in and indy and steals it? The argument that the thief may have spent hours searching for the ore to steal doesn't really hold up with the majority of ore thefts I have witnessed, which are generally thefts of oppourtunity. The ore theives I know of are generally low-skilled chars who spend their time hunting rats in belts with frigs/destroyers. If they happen to see a miner in the belt, they'll scout the cans whilst zooming around, and if there's something worth stealing they'll be right back in their hauler to get it. There is no risk to them, and they haven't "lost" any time as their NPC hunting was making them money and letting them search for theft vicims at the same time. Sure, if you're trying to make as much money as a low-sec NPC hunter or miner, or lvl3/4 agent runner, ore theft in secure space like this is not gonna cut it. Of course, if they can do such NPC hunts or agent missions, they can just as well go into low-sec space themseves and make more from stealing high-end ores. But, oh no, suddenly concord is not there to protect them from the wrath of their victims. Their thieving actions suddenly carry risk, so they run back to secure space and plead to keep no risk there, as they're not making very much anyway. To turn your words about miners around: Ore thieves do not have a 'right' to risk free ore thieving.
babyblue	Posted - 2005.01.04 15:28:00 - [27] The whole situation is pretty dumbass. Removing nocxium, isogen and mexallon from ores in high sec space would be a start. At present you can get everything you need to build a battleship from a 0.9 except megacyte and zydrine. How strange is that???
Avon	Posted - 2005.01.04 15:41:00 - [28] Miners have options open to them to completely prevent ore theft. They choose not to use them. The most profitable way for them to opperate runs the risk of ore theft. They know this risk. They accept this risk. When the thief (the balancing factor which allowed jet-can mining to remain in the game) takes their ore, they want to then have the right to murder? They want to change the stakes after the fact. If you really think that criminally flagging people who take from your can is the solution, then I hope you see the day that happens. Frankly I will be having a ball setting people up, and I am sure lots of other people will too. Jet can mining has a small risk, but is still easily more profitable than any other form of mining. Either you accept that risk, or you don't. The defence from ore theft already exists, either use it or accept that you are allowing ore thieves to conduct their business. ______________________________________________ Never argue with idiots. They will just drag it down to their level, and then beat you through experience.
MaiLina KaTar	Posted - 2005.01.04 15:58:00 - [29] Quote: The defence from ore theft already exists, either use it or accept that you are allowing ore thieves to conduct their business. ok so we all should be mining into 3.9k m¦ secure cans whenever we're mining in .4+ systems... Are you serious? And btw this thread isn't about oretheft. Mai's Idealog
Stregone	Posted - 2005.01.04 16:06:00 - [30] Originally by: Avon Miners have options open to them to completely prevent ore theft. They choose not to use them. People aren't complaining about ore theft really, they are complaining about the inability to fight back. The way ore theft is now is akin to a pirate being able to waltz into secure space and attack you infront of concord without getting instaganked by them, or have any consequence at all for that matter. However, if you fight back and fire on the pirate concord will wtfpwn you in a half heartbeat. So there's nothing you can do but sit there and think to yourself "Well, there's 15 minutes of my life I will never get back". How would you feel if that were possible, so any pirate could attack you at their greifing whim and suffer no ill consequence while you just have to sit there and take it or not only get blown up but take a sec hit if you fight back. And the only counter to this greifing would be to use a completely inferior ship. If you say you would not like that then you are a hypocrite if you do not also dislike the current way ore theivery is handled. Because that is exactly how it is handled right now. I don't want to make ore theivery impossible game mechanicaly, I just want to be able to defend myself.

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