Originally by: Kireiina

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There is no possible argument that perfect stealth is not rampantly imbalanced. A cloaked Tengu is a massive threat because as has been noted it must be assumed to be active or capable of becoming active at any time. And it will always get the initiative in the fight, pick a fight with already engaged targets or targets it knows it can beat. Meanwhile counter-measures are effectively non existent. Space is immense and 2Km is extremely short making detection via that method incredibly unlikely.

*but* a lot of people love being able to wander into the heart of enemy territory and project threat, cause tears and get some cheap ganks so will aggressively defend this as being good for the game. So the chances of having a good discussion about it are marginal. Almost as marginal as CCP actually doing something about it.

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Originally by: Katarlia Simov

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What I'm trying to get across is that cloakers only kill you because you let them do so. There is no safe way to make money in 0.0. No, it is not a fair fight when twenty guys come through a portal onto your ratting ship. That's because they sat and waited and waited until they knew they could kill you. Twenty guys (plus a portal ship and a cyno ship, and probably a backup cyno) that sat still for hours to kill one guy. They put in the time and effort to make you stupid.

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Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2

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Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 09/11/2010 00:58:44

Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro

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If they're taking the time and effort to pick their targets, they deserve some success.

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What about the time and effort others put in trying to find them? What success do they deserve ?

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Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro

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Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2

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Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 09/11/2010 00:58:44

Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro

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If they're taking the time and effort to pick their targets, they deserve some success.

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What about the time and effort others put in trying to find them? What success do they deserve ?

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None. As long as you're cloaked, you can't harm anyone, so why should there be any risk to you? Would you like a means of shooting afk docked people, too, or people who aren't even logged in?

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Originally by: Shiho Weitong

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Originally by: DarkAegix

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I see that there is a huge number of fools in this topic.
What's so bad about a probe to catch cloakers? What if this probe takes 5 or 10 mins to detect a cloaker? That way, it can only be used to catch AFK cloakers.
Normal cloakers aren't nerfed. Scanning ships aren't buffed.
Got a problem with that? AFK cloakers are a nuisance, and the solution is simple.

Before replying with "HERPITY DERP DERP DERP", please try to counter my argument in a way which:
1) Doesn't avoid the question
2) Gives sufficient reason to how my idea can be improved upon
3) Provides a better option which doesn't change EVE in any way, except by removing the presence of AFK cloakers

And yes, AFK cloakers affect manly PVP roamers too. I spent a while D-scanning a system for a red in local, only to come up with nothing. Yes, the whole system was covered. Yes, when I logged on 4 hours later they were still there. Yes, there were no stations in the system.

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I just had to pick this one up.

I underlined precisely what made you look like a donkey-hat. Your alleged argument is an oppinion and nothing else. You have not followed any of the rules for presenting a neither a logical, situational or unbiased argument.

My personal oppinion on the matter. If cloaks are being screwed over I'd like a new counter for probes, tyvm. For example a module, that when activated pods all pilots in ships with probe launchers on them, but leaves the ships themselves intact.

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Originally by: baltec1

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Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro

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Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2

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Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 09/11/2010 00:58:44

Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro

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If they're taking the time and effort to pick their targets, they deserve some success.

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What about the time and effort others put in trying to find them? What success do they deserve ?

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None. As long as you're cloaked, you can't harm anyone, so why should there be any risk to you? Would you like a means of shooting afk docked people, too, or people who aren't even logged in?

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Don't forget people at a POS or those unprobable ships

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Originally by: Nicolo da'Vicenza

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Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro

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Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2

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Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 09/11/2010 00:58:44

Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro

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If they're taking the time and effort to pick their targets, they deserve some success.

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What about the time and effort others put in trying to find them? What success do they deserve ?

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None. As long as you're cloaked, you can't harm anyone, so why should there be any risk to you? Would you like a means of shooting afk docked people, too, or people who aren't even logged in?

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Originally by: Katarlia Simov

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It isn't perfect stealth. That implies you are an invisible whirlwind of death no-one can shoot back at. That is NOT what a covert cloak gives you.

Now, when you look at balance, you have to look at the wider picture, not just at one guy sitting cloaked in one system that someone else wants to rat in. If you look at it in a region wide way, then the balance becomes more obvious. Alliances have a HUGE advantage on defence already. They can use large t2 bubbles and defence camps to seal their space. As it stands it is impossible for a fleet smaller (assuming both sides are as good as each other) than the camp to ever come and attack anything. The covert cloak is the only way that aggressors have a way past camps and to fight on their own terms. To get those fights on their own terms, they need defenders to let their guard down.

The cloak only ever lets people get kills when they do that.

Y'know what eve on a very fundamental level does ? It gives opportunities to those with patience and intelligence. It punishes those who don't want to wait for reds to leave or not smart enough to expect to be shot at in the designated 'free for all' areas of space.

Cloaks mean that small forces can really **** off big alliances. Oh they can't destroy them. But they can break individual members will to fight, and diminish their ability to replace losses. But they can only do that if the alliance they are attacking doesn't take basic precautions. Most big alliances just can't be bothered to guard ratters, but well motivated and disciplined forces can be bothered to hunt all day every day.

What I'm trying to get across is that cloakers only kill you because you let them do so. There is no safe way to make money in 0.0. No, it is not a fair fight when twenty guys come through a portal onto your ratting ship. That's because they sat and waited and waited until they knew they could kill you. Twenty guys (plus a portal ship and a cyno ship, and probably a backup cyno) that sat still for hours to kill one guy. They put in the time and effort to make you stupid.

Like a wide variety of things in eve, they are not directly balanced in a 1 vs 1 fight. Rock beats scissors, and it sucks if you happen to be scissors at the time. But on a grander scale, paper beats rock, and there are plenty of people who are paper. It just so happens that you can't be both Scissors (PvE fit for max solo profit) AND Paper (PvP fit to deal with recons) AND Turbo-Paper (Pvp fleet fit to bait and crush a covert portaled gang) all at once.

There is no problem with cloakers. There is a problem with people thinking because they lost a fight that it took the other guys fleet a whole day to set-up that a game mechanic is unfair. When you put in as much effort (or at least as much time) into not getting killed by cloakers as they do into killing you, then maybe there is a problem. If you just wanna rat in perfect safety, and you don't put in any thought of effort, then, when you think about more deeply, you deserve to be on the loosing end.

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Originally by: baltec1

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Originally by: Nicolo da'Vicenza

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I guess in theory these would be good analogies if I could hit F1 and instantly be docked in a station or inside pos shields no matter where I go, like I can with a cloak.

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An unprobable tengu doesnt even have to press F1 and niether does the guy at a pos while the one in the station is never more than one click away from undocking.

It all results in the same effect, a red in local.

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Originally by: Lady Spank

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Another one of these threads

Opinion a.) "They cant hurt you as long as they are cloaked !!!11 (unrealistic as they could be stalking you with a cyno etc)."

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Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2

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The BOTTOM LINE IS:

There should be a way to force unconsensual PVP on them just as they are able to force unconsensual PVP unto others. Their ability to keep others in alert while no one being able to do the same to them isn't balance. Cold, hard, Eve, and all that.

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Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro

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You claim that the 'reward' is that AFK cloaking forces other people to be on their guard while the AFK cloaker is not - I argue that the other people should already be on their guard anyway, so the alleged unfair advantage is non-existent, and thus there is no violation of the risk-reward principle.

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Originally by: MasterEnt

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Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro

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You claim that the 'reward' is that AFK cloaking forces other people to be on their guard while the AFK cloaker is not - I argue that the other people should already be on their guard anyway, so the alleged unfair advantage is non-existent, and thus there is no violation of the risk-reward principle.

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That makes NO sense.

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Originally by: Mella Elcus

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Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2

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The BOTTOM LINE IS:

There should be a way to force unconsensual PVP on them just as they are able to force unconsensual PVP unto others. Their ability to keep others in alert while no one being able to do the same to them isn't balance. Cold, hard, Eve, and all that.

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YES! But you have missed one huge point.
There should also be a way to force unconsensual PVP on those who rat in a system, right now they are 100% safe due to being able to warp away/dock/cloak as soon as they see a neutral/red in local. Requires no skill at all, even a bot can do it.

Every time afk cloaking is brought up, I've never seen any response on this from the anti-afk cloaking side.

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Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2

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Hardly fair.

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Originally by: baltec1

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Originally by: Nicolo da'Vicenza

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I guess in theory these would be good analogies if I could hit F1 and instantly be docked in a station or inside pos shields no matter where I go, like I can with a cloak.

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Originally by: RuleoftheBone

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Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2

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Hardly fair.

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Life ain't fair. EvE ain't fair. Get over it and stop trying to dictate how others choose to play the game.

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