Originally by: Ran Khanon

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I hear there is a large amount of systems where you can not be affected by afk cloakers. I think they are marked from yellow to blue on the star map. Maybe go there?

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Originally by: Brian Ballsack

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A single cloaky can drop production greatly if your alliance sucks.

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Originally by: Tom Gerard

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I can do it at work when asleep

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Originally by: LittleTerror

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AFK cloaky annoying yes but its part of the game and a valid tactic, just think of them as a sniper keeping troops alert.

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Originally by: Professor Tarantula

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Originally by: LittleTerror

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AFK cloaky annoying yes but its part of the game and a valid tactic, just think of them as a sniper keeping troops alert.

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In RL they just call in an airstrike on sniper positions after noticing them, or the troops blast them to hell with a Javelin missile. If they don't know exactly where the sniper position is, they invent bombing tactics and things like napalm which can cover square miles of terrain and wipe them out.

Don't confuse EVE warfare with the real thing for a second. In reality people develop military tech to counter tactics as soon as they appear, and invent ways for one person or device to take out as many foes as possible. CCP does neither of these things.

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Originally by: Professor Tarantula

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As for solo mining and ratting in the sense you mean them, both those are problems with occupying null security space where you're not welcome. It's a poorly thought out military tactic in the first place, which can be easily avoided by just having the sense to not do it.

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Originally by: Professor Tarantula

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In future space combat we'd be seeing things like bombs with the power of small supernovae, which can wipe out anyone stupid enough to have all their weapon platforms closely together, in a sort of blob like thing.

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Originally by: Professor Tarantula

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Originally by: LittleTerror

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AFK cloaky annoying yes but its part of the game and a valid tactic, just think of them as a sniper keeping troops alert.

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In RL they just call in an airstrike on sniper positions after noticing them, or the troops blast them to hell with a Javelin missile. If they don't know exactly where the sniper position is, they invent bombing tactics and things like napalm which can cover square miles of terrain and wipe them out.

Don't confuse EVE warfare with the real thing for a second. In reality people develop military tech to counter tactics as soon as they appear, and invent ways for one person or device to take out as many foes as possible. CCP does neither of these things.

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Originally by: L'Informatore

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Carebear is mad he can't solo grind a 0.0 system with no risk all day.

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Originally by: Aricaan

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I live in a wormhole and they dont bother me. :p

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Originally by: Feilamya

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Originally by: Aricaan

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I live in a wormhole and they dont bother me. :p

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The problem is that those dumb 0.0 and empire dwellers haven't figured out they can simply close the local window.

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Originally by: LittleTerror

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It would be kind of ****ing dumb to close it though right?

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Originally by: Cyprus Black

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You do realize what AFK stands for, right?

AFK = Away From Keyboard.

If a player who's away from his keyboard and cloaked up is such a threat to your entire alliance, then you fail EvE and should go back to WoW. Seriously, a wet paper napkin poses more threat than an AFK cloaker.

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Originally by: Dr Fighter

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"how do you know when youve had a repro accident"

Theres modules missing and morphite in your mineral pile.

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Originally by: Taedrin

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The "problem" with AFK cloakers is that you can't tell if they are AFK or not AFK. If they are not AFK, they are a danger. If they are AFK, then they are not.

Contrary to popular belief, however, there are many counters to AFK cloakers. Moving to another system, ratting in groups, training your corpmates to respond quickly to distress calls, or piloting ships which are easy to replace and thus mean nothing when lost.

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Originally by: Grozdan Boyadijev

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Originally by: Taedrin

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The "problem" with AFK cloakers is that you can't tell if they are AFK or not AFK. If they are not AFK, they are a danger. If they are AFK, then they are not.

Contrary to popular belief, however, there are many counters to AFK cloakers. Moving to another system, ratting in groups, training your corpmates to respond quickly to distress calls, or piloting ships which are easy to replace and thus mean nothing when lost.

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Don't forget watching your intel channel and learning your AFKers' schedules. I can't imagine there are many AFK cloakers who can afford to AFK 23/7 and come back at any given time.

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Originally by: Zendoren

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Oh my ****ing God....

Can someone please make this thread locked!

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Originally by: Baneken

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Only problem with AFK-cloakers is a cyno and a titan bridge, the cloaker it self bothers no one.

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Originally by: DarkAegix

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Problem: AFK cloakers who scare people and could un-AFK at any given moment and pop some ratters
Solution: A probe which can scan down cloakers. Alternatively, allow current probes to do this too.

There are no issues I can think of with this. Only AFK cloakers are negatively affected by the cloak-detection probe, which is the aim.

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Originally by: Dr Fighter

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"how do you know when youve had a repro accident"

Theres modules missing and morphite in your mineral pile.

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Originally by: Zhim'Fufu

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Originally by: Baneken

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Only problem with AFK-cloakers is a cyno and a titan bridge, the cloaker it self bothers no one.

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Then people need to htfu and go about their business. This game has went really downhill with all the idiotic players not wanting to risk even a freakin insured t1 barge if they think someone might violence their boat.

Grow some balls people. It's a ****ing game after all. =)

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Originally by: Professor Tarantula

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In RL they just call in an airstrike on sniper positions after noticing them, or the troops blast them to hell with a Javelin missile.

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Originally by: LittleTerror

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Originally by: Professor Tarantula

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In future space combat we'd be seeing things like bombs with the power of small supernovae, which can wipe out anyone stupid enough to have all their weapon platforms closely together, in a sort of blob like thing.

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Oh so we would set off a small supernovae? Lol, that sounds so silly, a small supernovae would require a small sun and then even if it were possible it would take out a large chunk of a solar system and emit radiation which would kill anyone living near by... Not to mention severely hammering electronics and communication's, again you're thinking so over kill for a frigate sized cloaked ship that you have no idea where it is in a system that can stretch 50 - 100 AU or more...

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Originally by: orphenshadow

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There is a really simple solution that will never get implemented..

Remove local

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Originally by: Chris Bailey

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Originally by: LittleTerror

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Originally by: Professor Tarantula

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In future space combat we'd be seeing things like bombs with the power of small supernovae, which can wipe out anyone stupid enough to have all their weapon platforms closely together, in a sort of blob like thing.

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Oh so we would set off a small supernovae? Lol, that sounds so silly, a small supernovae would require a small sun and then even if it were possible it would take out a large chunk of a solar system and emit radiation which would kill anyone living near by... Not to mention severely hammering electronics and communication's, again you're thinking so over kill for a frigate sized cloaked ship that you have no idea where it is in a system that can stretch 50 - 100 AU or more...

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Its called a doomsday

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Originally by: orphenshadow

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Besides isnt there a rule against doing stuff in eve while away from the keyboard in the EULA, considering the cloaking module is active, you are activly playing the game while not at the kb, and probably breaking the EULA

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Originally by: DarkAegix

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Problem: AFK cloakers who scare people and could un-AFK at any given moment and pop some ratters
Solution: A probe which can scan down cloakers. Alternatively, allow current probes to do this too.

There are no issues I can think of with this. Only AFK cloakers are negatively affected by the cloak-detection probe, which is the aim.

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Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro

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Besides, what exactly do you claim an AFK cloaker is doing?

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Originally by: Eric Policky

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How about allowing cloakers to show up on the directional scan? This way, if your cloaker is truly afk, and it's really bothering you, you can take the time to triangulate his position. Eventually you will be able to get close enough to him to bump him out of his cloak and kill him. An active cloaker would have nothing to fear from this tactic as he could just stay moving and really have next to no chance of being de-cloaked, but it would provide an avenue for a group of people to track down an AFKer and destroy them.

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Quote:

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n RL they just call in an airstrike on sniper positions after noticing them

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Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2

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Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro

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Besides, what exactly do you claim an AFK cloaker is doing?

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Forces others to remain vigilant, active, and prepared (absolutely NOTHING wrong with this) while he dosn't have to be (<== this is the problem).

Being able to keep others on their toes while you yourself not having to be is not balance.

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Originally by: RuleoftheBone

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Sure....lets follow your plan when:

A-Local goes away

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Quote:

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and

B-Active pilots in stations and towers get ejected into space at random intervals.

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Quote:

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Here...have a tissue

**edit**funny how nobody complains about no local/cloak use in w-space. simply proves the concept that local as an "intel" tool is an ever-so-scary rubbish crutch for those in k-space. stop trying to dictate how other pilots play the game.

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Originally by: Grek Forto

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Originally by: Chris Bailey

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Originally by: LittleTerror

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Originally by: Professor Tarantula

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In future space combat we'd be seeing things like bombs with the power of small supernovae, which can wipe out anyone stupid enough to have all their weapon platforms closely together, in a sort of blob like thing.

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Oh so we would set off a small supernovae? Lol, that sounds so silly, a small supernovae would require a small sun and then even if it were possible it would take out a large chunk of a solar system and emit radiation which would kill anyone living near by... Not to mention severely hammering electronics and communication's, again you're thinking so over kill for a frigate sized cloaked ship that you have no idea where it is in a system that can stretch 50 - 100 AU or more...

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Its called a doomsday

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I think you underestimate the power of a supernova.

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Originally by: RuleoftheBone

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Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 07/11/2010 09:31:01

Originally by: orphenshadow

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There is a really simple solution that will never get implemented..

Remove local

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Fixed

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Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2

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W-SPACE =! K-SPACE
We can discuss this further when you learn why the above is true.

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Originally by: LittleTerror

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Originally by: Professor Tarantula

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In future space combat we'd be seeing things like bombs with the power of small supernovae, which can wipe out anyone stupid enough to have all their weapon platforms closely together, in a sort of blob like thing.

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Oh so we would set off a small supernovae? Lol, that sounds so silly, a small supernovae would require a small sun and then even if it were possible it would take out a large chunk of a solar system and emit radiation which would kill anyone living near by... Not to mention severely hammering electronics and communication's, again you're thinking so over kill for a frigate sized cloaked ship that you have no idea where it is in a system that can stretch 50 - 100 AU or more...

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Quote:

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EVE-Online... Too rough for ya? Don't like it? GTFO...

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Originally by: Razin

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Three thing need to happen to the game that will, among great many other things, take care of the subject of this thread:

1. Delayed Local. This needs to happen regardless.
2. Delayed Local needs to come with an upgraded d-scan that will have the capability to show a 'cloak signature warning' based on some limiting parameters (range/time).
3. Cloaked ships will have shorter d-scan range. Say by 50-70%.

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Originally by: DarkAegix

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I see that there is a huge number of fools in this topic.
What's so bad about a probe to catch cloakers? What if this probe takes 5 or 10 mins to detect a cloaker? That way, it can only be used to catch AFK cloakers.
Normal cloakers aren't nerfed. Scanning ships aren't buffed.
Got a problem with that? AFK cloakers are a nuisance, and the solution is simple.

Before replying with "HERPITY DERP DERP DERP", please try to counter my argument in a way which:
1) Doesn't avoid the question
2) Gives sufficient reason to how my idea can be improved upon
3) Provides a better option which doesn't change EVE in any way, except by removing the presence of AFK cloakers

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Originally by: Cipher Jones

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Your opinion is unfounded and biased.

Delayed local needs to happen eh? sure it does. because just because someone is in local and you cant find them means they are cloaked.

Oh yeah wait it doesen't.

Cloak signature warning. ****ing lol. of course cloaks have a signature.

Oh yeah wait, they dont have one.

cloaks should have a shorter dscan range. Because they dont have enough restrictions.


Oh yeah, they have a a ****load.

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Originally by: Ceci Mariz

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Edited by: Ceci Mariz on 08/11/2010 17:57:07
I'd like to see an out-of-game, economic solution to this. Boot inactive players, so as to conserve server resources. It they use some kind of bot to fake activity, fine, ban them from the game.

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Quote:

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so if I need to go somewhere in an emergency I get booted? People have real lifes you know, just because you dont . You need to HTFU.

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Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2

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Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro

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Besides, what exactly do you claim an AFK cloaker is doing?

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Forces others to remain vigilant, active, and prepared (absolutely NOTHING wrong with this) while he dosn't have to be (<== this is the problem).

Being able to keep others on their toes while you yourself not having to be is not balance.

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Originally by: MASTERLESS SLAVE

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Edited by: MASTERLESS SLAVE on 08/11/2010 18:02:45

Originally by: Ceci Mariz

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Edited by: Ceci Mariz on 08/11/2010 17:57:07
I'd like to see an out-of-game, economic solution to this. Boot inactive players, so as to conserve server resources. It they use some kind of bot to fake activity, fine, ban them from the game.

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so if I need to go somewhere in an emergency I get booted? People have real lifes you know, just because you dont . You need to HTFU.

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Originally by: Dr Fighter

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"how do you know when youve had a repro accident"

Theres modules missing and morphite in your mineral pile.

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Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro

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Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2

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Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro

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Besides, what exactly do you claim an AFK cloaker is doing?

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Forces others to remain vigilant, active, and prepared (absolutely NOTHING wrong with this) while he dosn't have to be (<== this is the problem).

Being able to keep others on their toes while you yourself not having to be is not balance.

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Are you suggesting that anyone should ever expect not to be on their toes when playing eve? Especially when undocked, and even more so outside high sec.

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Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2

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I am suggesting that EVERYONE in 0.0 be on their toes, INCLUDING AFK CLOAKERS. Sigh. You mention risk, but as always, it's only risk for the "other people", not yourself.

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Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro

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Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2

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I am suggesting that EVERYONE in 0.0 be on their toes, INCLUDING AFK CLOAKERS. Sigh. You mention risk, but as always, it's only risk for the "other people", not yourself.

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I don't see the problem there. In my opinion, risk in EVE should be proportional to reward, but there's not much 'reward' to be had when you're cloaked, still less when AFK as well. On this basis, I think it's reasonable that people who are AFK cloaked should not expect anyone to be able to find them.

You claim that the 'reward' is that AFK cloaking forces other people to be on their guard while the AFK cloaker is not - I argue that the other people should already be on their guard anyway, so the alleged unfair advantage is non-existent, and thus there is no violation of the risk-reward principle.

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Originally by: DarkAegix

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I see that there is a huge number of fools in this topic.
What's so bad about a probe to catch cloakers? What if this probe takes 5 or 10 mins to detect a cloaker? That way, it can only be used to catch AFK cloakers.
Normal cloakers aren't nerfed. Scanning ships aren't buffed.
Got a problem with that? AFK cloakers are a nuisance, and the solution is simple.

Before replying with "HERPITY DERP DERP DERP", please try to counter my argument in a way which:
1) Doesn't avoid the question
2) Gives sufficient reason to how my idea can be improved upon
3) Provides a better option which doesn't change EVE in any way, except by removing the presence of AFK cloakers

And yes, AFK cloakers affect manly PVP roamers too. I spent a while D-scanning a system for a red in local, only to come up with nothing. Yes, the whole system was covered. Yes, when I logged on 4 hours later they were still there. Yes, there were no stations in the system.

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Originally by: Tchell Dahhn

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You win, and thank you.

Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2

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Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro

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Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2

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I am suggesting that EVERYONE in 0.0 be on their toes, INCLUDING AFK CLOAKERS. Sigh. You mention risk, but as always, it's only risk for the "other people", not yourself.

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I don't see the problem there. In my opinion, risk in EVE should be proportional to reward, but there's not much 'reward' to be had when you're cloaked, still less when AFK as well. On this basis, I think it's reasonable that people who are AFK cloaked should not expect anyone to be able to find them.

You claim that the 'reward' is that AFK cloaking forces other people to be on their guard while the AFK cloaker is not - I argue that the other people should already be on their guard anyway, so the alleged unfair advantage is non-existent, and thus there is no violation of the risk-reward principle.

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I don't think you fully understand what it is an 'AFK cloaker' is or does. In fact, you admit others should have to remain in alert while cloakers need not to.

The fact is that cloakers do pose a risk. And it is WHY players need to be alert. And this is perfectly fine. What I don't agree with is that their engagements are ALWAYS CONSENSUAL from their part and unconsensual with their targets. They don't have to worry precisely because they don't have to face unconsensual PVP themselves. They get to turn their PVP flags on at will in 0.0 space (where it's supposed to be cold and scary). They get to pose a potential threat to others while NO ONE can pose a threat to them. No one engages them unless they choose to PVP. They can do this for days, weeks, and months in a system without worrying of ever being found, picking off their targets, and while still having the ability to engage in consensual PVP only.

The BOTTOM LINE IS:

There should be a way to force unconsensual PVP on them just as they are able to force unconsensual PVP unto others. Their ability to keep others in alert while no one being able to do the same to them isn't balance. Cold, hard, Eve, and all that.

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Originally by: KaarBaak

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While I'm a fairly new pilot, it's been beaten into my brain repeatedly that

A) there is no safe place in New Eden for any pilot.
B) All PvP is consensual. Login is consent.
C) there is already a difficult way to find cloaked ships--get within 2500m. What you are looking for is an easier way to find them?

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Originally by: KaarBaak

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While I'm a fairly new pilot, it's been beaten into my brain repeatedly that

A) there is no safe place in New Eden for any pilot.
B) All PvP is consensual. Login is consent.
C) there is already a difficult way to find cloaked ships--get within 2500m. What you are looking for is an easier way to find them?

KB

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Originally by: Dr Fighter

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"how do you know when youve had a repro accident"

Theres modules missing and morphite in your mineral pile.

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Originally by: KaarBaak

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While I'm a fairly new pilot, it's been beaten into my brain repeatedly that

A) there is no safe place in New Eden for any pilot.
B) All PvP is consensual. Login is consent.
C) there is already a difficult way to find cloaked ships--get within 2500m. What you are looking for is an easier way to find them?

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Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2

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I don't think you fully understand what it is an 'AFK cloaker' is or does.

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Quote:

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In fact, you admit others should have to remain in alert while cloakers need not to.

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Quote:

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The fact is that cloakers do pose a risk. And it is WHY players need to be alert. And this is perfectly fine. What I don't agree with is that their engagements are ALWAYS CONSENSUAL from their part and unconsensual with their targets. They don't have to worry precisely because they don't have to face unconsensual PVP themselves.

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Quote:

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They get to turn their PVP flags on at will in 0.0 space (where it's supposed to be cold and scary). They get to pose a potential threat to others while NO ONE can pose a threat to them. No one engages them unless they choose to PVP. They can do this for days, weeks, and months in a system without worrying of ever being found, picking off their targets, and while still having the ability to engage in consensual PVP only.

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Quote:

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The BOTTOM LINE IS:

There should be a way to force unconsensual PVP on them just as they are able to force unconsensual PVP unto others. Their ability to keep others in alert while no one being able to do the same to them isn't balance. Cold, hard, Eve, and all that.

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Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro

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If they're taking the time and effort to pick their targets, they deserve some success.

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Originally by: Kireiina

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There is no possible argument that perfect stealth is not rampantly imbalanced. A cloaked Tengu is a massive threat because as has been noted it must be assumed to be active or capable of becoming active at any time. And it will always get the initiative in the fight, pick a fight with already engaged targets or targets it knows it can beat. Meanwhile counter-measures are effectively non existent. Space is immense and 2Km is extremely short making detection via that method incredibly unlikely.

*but* a lot of people love being able to wander into the heart of enemy territory and project threat, cause tears and get some cheap ganks so will aggressively defend this as being good for the game. So the chances of having a good discussion about it are marginal. Almost as marginal as CCP actually doing something about it.

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Originally by: Katarlia Simov

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What I'm trying to get across is that cloakers only kill you because you let them do so. There is no safe way to make money in 0.0. No, it is not a fair fight when twenty guys come through a portal onto your ratting ship. That's because they sat and waited and waited until they knew they could kill you. Twenty guys (plus a portal ship and a cyno ship, and probably a backup cyno) that sat still for hours to kill one guy. They put in the time and effort to make you stupid.

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Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2

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Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 09/11/2010 00:58:44

Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro

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If they're taking the time and effort to pick their targets, they deserve some success.

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What about the time and effort others put in trying to find them? What success do they deserve ?

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Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro

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Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2

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Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 09/11/2010 00:58:44

Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro

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If they're taking the time and effort to pick their targets, they deserve some success.

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What about the time and effort others put in trying to find them? What success do they deserve ?

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None. As long as you're cloaked, you can't harm anyone, so why should there be any risk to you? Would you like a means of shooting afk docked people, too, or people who aren't even logged in?

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Originally by: Shiho Weitong

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Originally by: DarkAegix

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I see that there is a huge number of fools in this topic.
What's so bad about a probe to catch cloakers? What if this probe takes 5 or 10 mins to detect a cloaker? That way, it can only be used to catch AFK cloakers.
Normal cloakers aren't nerfed. Scanning ships aren't buffed.
Got a problem with that? AFK cloakers are a nuisance, and the solution is simple.

Before replying with "HERPITY DERP DERP DERP", please try to counter my argument in a way which:
1) Doesn't avoid the question
2) Gives sufficient reason to how my idea can be improved upon
3) Provides a better option which doesn't change EVE in any way, except by removing the presence of AFK cloakers

And yes, AFK cloakers affect manly PVP roamers too. I spent a while D-scanning a system for a red in local, only to come up with nothing. Yes, the whole system was covered. Yes, when I logged on 4 hours later they were still there. Yes, there were no stations in the system.

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I just had to pick this one up.

I underlined precisely what made you look like a donkey-hat. Your alleged argument is an oppinion and nothing else. You have not followed any of the rules for presenting a neither a logical, situational or unbiased argument.

My personal oppinion on the matter. If cloaks are being screwed over I'd like a new counter for probes, tyvm. For example a module, that when activated pods all pilots in ships with probe launchers on them, but leaves the ships themselves intact.

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Originally by: baltec1

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Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro

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Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2

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Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 09/11/2010 00:58:44

Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro

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If they're taking the time and effort to pick their targets, they deserve some success.

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What about the time and effort others put in trying to find them? What success do they deserve ?

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None. As long as you're cloaked, you can't harm anyone, so why should there be any risk to you? Would you like a means of shooting afk docked people, too, or people who aren't even logged in?

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Don't forget people at a POS or those unprobable ships

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Originally by: Nicolo da'Vicenza

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Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro

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Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2

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Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 09/11/2010 00:58:44

Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro

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If they're taking the time and effort to pick their targets, they deserve some success.

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What about the time and effort others put in trying to find them? What success do they deserve ?

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None. As long as you're cloaked, you can't harm anyone, so why should there be any risk to you? Would you like a means of shooting afk docked people, too, or people who aren't even logged in?

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Originally by: Katarlia Simov

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It isn't perfect stealth. That implies you are an invisible whirlwind of death no-one can shoot back at. That is NOT what a covert cloak gives you.

Now, when you look at balance, you have to look at the wider picture, not just at one guy sitting cloaked in one system that someone else wants to rat in. If you look at it in a region wide way, then the balance becomes more obvious. Alliances have a HUGE advantage on defence already. They can use large t2 bubbles and defence camps to seal their space. As it stands it is impossible for a fleet smaller (assuming both sides are as good as each other) than the camp to ever come and attack anything. The covert cloak is the only way that aggressors have a way past camps and to fight on their own terms. To get those fights on their own terms, they need defenders to let their guard down.

The cloak only ever lets people get kills when they do that.

Y'know what eve on a very fundamental level does ? It gives opportunities to those with patience and intelligence. It punishes those who don't want to wait for reds to leave or not smart enough to expect to be shot at in the designated 'free for all' areas of space.

Cloaks mean that small forces can really **** off big alliances. Oh they can't destroy them. But they can break individual members will to fight, and diminish their ability to replace losses. But they can only do that if the alliance they are attacking doesn't take basic precautions. Most big alliances just can't be bothered to guard ratters, but well motivated and disciplined forces can be bothered to hunt all day every day.

What I'm trying to get across is that cloakers only kill you because you let them do so. There is no safe way to make money in 0.0. No, it is not a fair fight when twenty guys come through a portal onto your ratting ship. That's because they sat and waited and waited until they knew they could kill you. Twenty guys (plus a portal ship and a cyno ship, and probably a backup cyno) that sat still for hours to kill one guy. They put in the time and effort to make you stupid.

Like a wide variety of things in eve, they are not directly balanced in a 1 vs 1 fight. Rock beats scissors, and it sucks if you happen to be scissors at the time. But on a grander scale, paper beats rock, and there are plenty of people who are paper. It just so happens that you can't be both Scissors (PvE fit for max solo profit) AND Paper (PvP fit to deal with recons) AND Turbo-Paper (Pvp fleet fit to bait and crush a covert portaled gang) all at once.

There is no problem with cloakers. There is a problem with people thinking because they lost a fight that it took the other guys fleet a whole day to set-up that a game mechanic is unfair. When you put in as much effort (or at least as much time) into not getting killed by cloakers as they do into killing you, then maybe there is a problem. If you just wanna rat in perfect safety, and you don't put in any thought of effort, then, when you think about more deeply, you deserve to be on the loosing end.

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Originally by: baltec1

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Originally by: Nicolo da'Vicenza

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I guess in theory these would be good analogies if I could hit F1 and instantly be docked in a station or inside pos shields no matter where I go, like I can with a cloak.

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An unprobable tengu doesnt even have to press F1 and niether does the guy at a pos while the one in the station is never more than one click away from undocking.

It all results in the same effect, a red in local.

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Originally by: Lady Spank

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Another one of these threads

Opinion a.) "They cant hurt you as long as they are cloaked !!!11 (unrealistic as they could be stalking you with a cyno etc)."

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Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2

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The BOTTOM LINE IS:

There should be a way to force unconsensual PVP on them just as they are able to force unconsensual PVP unto others. Their ability to keep others in alert while no one being able to do the same to them isn't balance. Cold, hard, Eve, and all that.

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Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro

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You claim that the 'reward' is that AFK cloaking forces other people to be on their guard while the AFK cloaker is not - I argue that the other people should already be on their guard anyway, so the alleged unfair advantage is non-existent, and thus there is no violation of the risk-reward principle.

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Originally by: MasterEnt

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Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro

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You claim that the 'reward' is that AFK cloaking forces other people to be on their guard while the AFK cloaker is not - I argue that the other people should already be on their guard anyway, so the alleged unfair advantage is non-existent, and thus there is no violation of the risk-reward principle.

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That makes NO sense.

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Originally by: Mella Elcus

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Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2

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The BOTTOM LINE IS:

There should be a way to force unconsensual PVP on them just as they are able to force unconsensual PVP unto others. Their ability to keep others in alert while no one being able to do the same to them isn't balance. Cold, hard, Eve, and all that.

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YES! But you have missed one huge point.
There should also be a way to force unconsensual PVP on those who rat in a system, right now they are 100% safe due to being able to warp away/dock/cloak as soon as they see a neutral/red in local. Requires no skill at all, even a bot can do it.

Every time afk cloaking is brought up, I've never seen any response on this from the anti-afk cloaking side.

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Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2

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Hardly fair.

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Originally by: baltec1

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Originally by: Nicolo da'Vicenza

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---

I guess in theory these would be good analogies if I could hit F1 and instantly be docked in a station or inside pos shields no matter where I go, like I can with a cloak.

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Originally by: RuleoftheBone

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Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2

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Hardly fair.

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Life ain't fair. EvE ain't fair. Get over it and stop trying to dictate how others choose to play the game.

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Originally by: Nicolo da'Vicenza

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A person docked in a station or sitting in a pos can't just return to his keyboard and undock from station 2500m from a PvE ship that he knows is there. And what's more, they can't bring their pos or their station from system to system, always within 2500m docking range anytime they like. Sorry, but the effects are not the same.

Press F1, be invulnerable to attack.

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Originally by: AFK Cloaker

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Originally by: Chesty McJubblies

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Originally by: Tom Gerard

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I can do it at work when asleep

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You sleep at work? Are you guys hiring?

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Originally by: MailOrder RussianBride

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Every one who has replied to this thread is stupid. Including me. No one is saying anything new. No one's opinion has changed. No points that haven't been rehashed three hundred thousand times before have been brought up.

This discussion is stale. It was stagnant a year ago. And the year before that. And the year before that. That's why all of you are stupid.

I'm stupid because what I've just typed is equally wasted. This will never stop being debated and nothing I type will change that. But... /sigh, sometimes I just can't resist...

It's a character flaw.

---

Originally by: Kendon riddick

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Originally by: MailOrder RussianBride

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I think I'm so much smarter than all of you, but really I'm not because I'm still here debating this idocy with all of you, however posting this helps my deal with my feelings of mental inadequacy passed on to me by my verbally abusive white, American middle class father. He managed a gas station. Blah, blah, blah.

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I couldn't think of anything more trollish than this but simply HAD to respond first. Maybe someone will take me seriously. Please god, please, take me seriously.

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Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara

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I don't have problems with cloakers because they disturb economic activities, but I have a problem when they can do it while being AFK. Any tactic that is successful without requiring player interaction is obviously flawed. My proposal is this:

1. Add random events that disturb cloak.
2. Add a fuel bay for covert ops compatible ships, that could hold ~2h worth of fuel.
3. Use fuel to reinforce cloak so that random events do not disturb it.
4. ???
5. Profit.

Cloaky ship could be cloaked in system, when suddenly he hears AURA's voice:
"Solar flare detected. Hazardous radiation detected. Cloak bubble collapse imminent. Cloak reinforcement mode recommended."
Cloaky pilot turns on the reinforced mode and stays cloaked. But if he fails to act cloak is turned off, and theres 30 seconds delay to turn it on.

That way cloakers who only need to stay cloaked for under 2 hours are not affected, they can just run the reinforced mode without turning it off.
Cloakers who need to stay cloaked for more than 2 hours just need to manage fuel and turn off the reinforced mode when its not needed.
Afk cloakers can only be afk cloaking for 2 hours or risk being decloaked and killed. HOORAY!!!

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Originally by: baltec1

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Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara

---

I don't have problems with cloakers because they disturb economic activities, but I have a problem when they can do it while being AFK. Any tactic that is successful without requiring player interaction is obviously flawed. My proposal is this:

1. Add random events that disturb cloak.
2. Add a fuel bay for covert ops compatible ships, that could hold ~2h worth of fuel.
3. Use fuel to reinforce cloak so that random events do not disturb it.
4. ???
5. Profit.

Cloaky ship could be cloaked in system, when suddenly he hears AURA's voice:
"Solar flare detected. Hazardous radiation detected. Cloak bubble collapse imminent. Cloak reinforcement mode recommended."
Cloaky pilot turns on the reinforced mode and stays cloaked. But if he fails to act cloak is turned off, and theres 30 seconds delay to turn it on.

That way cloakers who only need to stay cloaked for under 2 hours are not affected, they can just run the reinforced mode without turning it off.
Cloakers who need to stay cloaked for more than 2 hours just need to manage fuel and turn off the reinforced mode when its not needed.
Afk cloakers can only be afk cloaking for 2 hours or risk being decloaked and killed. HOORAY!!!

---

Well done you just nerfed my bomber so it cannot spy on fleets and get intel on a pos/station for as long as is needed and made it so I cannot go on long roams so you can now have easy mode for your ratting fleets.

Now, what about my tempest at the pos, the phoon docked in the station, the cane next door and the tengu you cannot ever probe out?

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Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara

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No I did not. I just made it that you cant do it all while being afk.

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Originally by: baltec1

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Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara

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No I did not. I just made it that you cant do it all while being afk.

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No you made it so I have a limited amount of time to be effective to try and fix an issue most of eve does not have. Seriously, there is no difference in an AFK cloaker and an AFK guy in the station other than the guy in the station has more ship options.

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Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara

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If you are not afk then you can easily last for whole day. I just don't like that afk cloakers now are 100% safe, where else could you find that kind of safety apart from stations.

P.S. The guy in station has to undock and is vulnerable then.

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Originally by: baltec1

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Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara

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If you are not afk then you can easily last for whole day. I just don't like that afk cloakers now are 100% safe, where else could you find that kind of safety apart from stations.

P.S. The guy in station has to undock and is vulnerable then.

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Because attacking a raven in a bomber is 100% safe...

Please go read what has already been said, there are many ways to go AFK and have 100% safety. Just remove local. You might not detect me but I will also have no idea what support you have.

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Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara

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Local removal might be a good thing, though I'm still not sold on the idea.

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Originally by: baltec1

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Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara

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Local removal might be a good thing, though I'm still not sold on the idea.

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Think of it this way. With no local to tell you there is a red in local then you cant know there is a cloaked AFK red in local so this problem will no longer be a problem.

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Originally by: RuleoftheBone

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White chocolate Mississippi mud cake with white chocolate ganache and walnuts

Yes, not quite the dark mud of the Mississippi delta! But for those of us who love white chocolate, and want a lighter rich chocolaty taste, here is a great recipe:

Ingredients

200g brown sugar

250ml milk

180g butter, cut up

6 tablespoons molasses or treacle

150g white chocolate, coarsely chopped

300g plain flour

2 teaspoons baking powder

Pinch of salt

2 large eggs, lightly beaten

375ml of white chocolate ganache

12 walnut halves

Preheat the oven to 325¦C, 170¦C, gas 3. Butter and prepare a 23cm round cake pan with greaseproof paper.

Place the brown sugar, milk, molasses and chocolate in a saucepan and stir over a low heat. Do not allow to boil. Mix until smooth, then allow to cool.

Sift the flour, baking powder, and salt into a medium bowl. Then gradually stir the dry ingredients and the eggs into the sugar mixture.

Spoon the batter into the prepared cake pan.

Bake in the oven for 60 to 70 minutes. Test with a skewer or tooth-pick to test that the cake is done - they should come out clean.

Cool the cake completely in the pan before turning out. Decorate by spreading the white chocolate ganache and arrange the walnuts.

When making a Mississippi mud pie recipe, there are a number of ways that you can present the pie. With the party case and the dark rich filling, you can whip up some cream - around 300ml is usually enough, and completely cover the filling, then decorate with chocolate curls.

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Originally by: teh pie

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n 1995 my husband's birthday gift to me was a week long pastry class at Le Cordon Bleu. One of the first things we made was this classic Fruit Tart. I love the look and taste of this tart with its sweet pastry crust that is filled with a rich and creamy pastry cream. But what makes this tart so special is the fresh fruit. You can use a single fruit or a medley of fruits and berries, and it can be piled haphazardly on the cream or else in concentric circles.

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Quote:

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Now, this recipe produces a Fruit Tart that you would find in a fine pastry shop. Therefore, it is a little more labor intensive and may challenge the novice baker. To make it easier, though, I find it best to make the pastry shell and the pastry cream a day in advance. Then, all that is left the day of serving is to fill the baked tart shell with the pastry cream and garnish with the fruit. The sweet pastry crust, also known as Pate Sucree, is prebaked and once the pastry shell has been baked and cooled, it is a good idea to 'seal' the crust by spreading a thin layer of apricot glaze or even melted chocolate over its base. This 'sealing' prevents the pastry cream from softening the crust over time. The classic filling for a fruit tart is pastry cream, or creme patissiere, which is a rich, thick custard made from a mixture of milk, eggs, sugar, flour and cornstarch (a thickener) that is cooked on the stove. Its mild flavor really does go nicely with the sweet pastry crust and the fresh fruit.
Of course, the most eye catching part of a fruit tart is the fruit. There are so many fruits to choose from but it is important that the fruit looks and tastes wonderful. The fruit can be arranged in concentric circles or rows, or it can be randomly piled on the cream. While berries, with their vibrant colors, always look wonderful, other fruits are nice as well. Slices of kiwi, pineapple, melon, peaches, plums, nectarines, and mango are some fruits that look beautiful on this tart. If you like, you can glaze the fruit with either an apricot glaze (recipe included) or red currant jelly to give the fruit a beautiful shine and it also prevents the fruit from drying out.

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Originally by: DarkAegix

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Problem: AFK cloakers who scare people and could un-AFK at any given moment and pop some ratters
Solution: A probe which can scan down cloakers. Alternatively, allow current probes to do this too.

There are no issues I can think of with this. Only AFK cloakers are negatively affected by the cloak-detection probe, which is the aim.

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Originally by: Kraundewr

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Why have cloaking at all? <grumbles something under his breath about a moron and walks off>

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Originally by: Kireiina

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Edited by: Kireiina on 11/11/2010 05:25:11

Originally by: Kraundewr

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Why have cloaking at all? <grumbles something under his breath about a moron and walks off>

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You think removing AFK cloaking (eg. if you sit in one spot for an hour you will get popped) makes cloaks useless?

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Originally by: Kireiina

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Of course.

The current system allows a player to project threat (since he must be assumed to be active) with zero effort or risk on their part. That's broken game mechanics in any game.

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Originally by: wah wah

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OMG! If this was teh WoWs I wouldn't want that mean ole night elf just sitting there, watching me killing garden snakes! Wat if he's AFK?! How would I know?? Wat if he's coming for me right now... EEEEEE!

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Originally by: Kireiina

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Of course.

The current system allows a player to project threat (since he must be assumed to be active) with zero effort or risk on their part. That's broken game mechanics in any game.

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Originally by: Baneken

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You mean, AFK cloaker comes off from work -> ohh people in local -> finds a ratter in BS -> solo kills or yells to corp to fetch a titan/bs for cyno -> dead ratter -> AFK cloaker goes AFK again.

And waiting or risk here was in which part ?

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Originally by: Simetriz

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New Probes that can be used by the covert Ops only and high skill requirement.
Probes can scan to the grid of the person that is cloaked.
Scan time is 10 minutes or maybe 20 minutes.
Margin of error on the probe 100 to 200 KM (randomized but the the type of cloak also determines the margin of error)

This means you can probe to the grid basically and if some one is AFK you can find them over time.
Hint: multiple people scanning could use a triangulation to find the person quicker

So it would be possible to uncloak a covert ops if they were afk but if they are active it would be VERY unlikely.
I would say impossible but somebody could do something foolish.

And for the prototype cloakers well it would only be a matter of time.

Problem Solved

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Originally by: Starlight Twilight

---

this,
oh and **** YOU for saying they have paper thin ships(they aren't supposed to tank you damned idiot) and we should go rat in GROUPS
yea lets go rat in groups which makes it more efficient isk wise to bomb us (more KMs for less bombs)

you forget how few ships survive a bombing run from 10+ bombers asides from a heavily tanked capital ship that is now surrounded by wreaks, a single SB launches and anchors a faction mobile warp disruptor next to him preventing him from warping before aligning and suddenly sees a cyno light up next to him. all this in less than a minute.

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Originally by: wha wha people

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"GEE there is this guy, um, like, in Local,, and well - He's got like, uhhh negative standings to me, but he's not in the station,, so that must mean he's somewhere cloaked... But like, wat if he is teh AFKz? Bogus dudes... *toke*

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Originally by: wah wah people

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HOLY @#($*&@#(*! THOUSANDS OF BOMBERS ARE COMING FOR MEEE! Our little ratting group is teh d00med! Billy's carrier is DEAD man! Some guy faction mobiled scammzored him and then all his buddies decloaked off his port bow and started bombing him! Hell! They didn't even show up in local!! OMG Dogs and Cats are sleeping together RITE NAO! It's the end of teh WURLD! Wai you kill us CCPz? OMG WAI?!

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Originally by: Starlight Twilight

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this topic is now about trolling

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Originally by: baltec1

---

Originally by: Nicolo da'Vicenza

---

A person docked in a station or sitting in a pos can't just return to his keyboard and undock from station 2500m from a PvE ship that he knows is there. And what's more, they can't bring their pos or their station from system to system, always within 2500m docking range anytime they like. Sorry, but the effects are not the same.

Press F1, be invulnerable to attack.

---

Actualy my corp has been doing this for years in venal. We can be docked in a station for hours on end and then undock, scan out something tasty and warp on top of it. We even hide next door and get the kills.

AFK cloakers are just as dangerous as a red in a station, at a pos, in an unprobable ship or the guy next door. You want to nerf it all?

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Originally by: wah wah pplz

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TEH AFK CLOAKURS!

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Originally by: Zedic

---

No, no it does not. Nope. Absolutely not.

Perspective, have any? A player who may, or may not be AFK for X hours in your favorite AFK mining system is by no means "projecting threat" unless you decide to perceive his presence as a threat and alter ***YOUR*** game play.

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Originally by: LittleTerror

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Originally by: Professor Tarantula

---

Originally by: LittleTerror

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AFK cloaky annoying yes but its part of the game and a valid tactic, just think of them as a sniper keeping troops alert.

---

In RL they just call in an airstrike on sniper positions after noticing them, or the troops blast them to hell with a Javelin missile. If they don't know exactly where the sniper position is, they invent bombing tactics and things like napalm which can cover square miles of terrain and wipe them out.

Don't confuse EVE warfare with the real thing for a second. In reality people develop military tech to counter tactics as soon as they appear, and invent ways for one person or device to take out as many foes as possible. CCP does neither of these things.

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Well this is a space game set in the distant future, you're right I should not have compared it to real life, however the invisible threat of IED's and snipers remains ever present in real life.

No you can't napalm that entire village or town...

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Originally by: Blane Xero

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An "AFK Cloaker" is no more dangerous than a Knife in a Knifestand.

Sure, there is a perceived/perceivable threat, but only if you think like a victim.

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Originally by: Kireiina

---

Of course.

The current system allows a player to project threat (since he must be assumed to be active) with zero effort or risk on their part. That's broken game mechanics in any game.

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Originally by: MASTERLESS SLAVE

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Originally by: Kireiina

---

Of course.

The current system allows a player to project threat (since he must be assumed to be active) with zero effort or risk on their part. That's broken game mechanics in any game.

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HTFU.

the afk cloaker already has plenty of risks.

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Originally by: Zedic

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...and will go down like a fat chick on prom night

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Quote:

---

Go about your business, be smart about said business and you'll be fine! This insidious obsession with trying to control how everyone else plays a game, rather than working around a [perceived] problem and making sure that you enjoy the game is what's so wrong with MMO's lately.

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Originally by: Baneken

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Originally by: MASTERLESS SLAVE

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Originally by: Kireiina

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Of course.

The current system allows a player to project threat (since he must be assumed to be active) with zero effort or risk on their part. That's broken game mechanics in any game.

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HTFU.

the afk cloaker already has plenty of risks.

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Yes such as power blackout or a house fire.

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Originally by: DarkAegix

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Originally by: Shiho Weitong

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Originally by: DarkAegix

---

I see that there is a huge number of fools in this topic.
What's so bad about a probe to catch cloakers? What if this probe takes 5 or 10 mins to detect a cloaker? That way, it can only be used to catch AFK cloakers.
Normal cloakers aren't nerfed. Scanning ships aren't buffed.
Got a problem with that? AFK cloakers are a nuisance, and the solution is simple.

Before replying with "HERPITY DERP DERP DERP", please try to counter my argument in a way which:
1) Doesn't avoid the question
2) Gives sufficient reason to how my idea can be improved upon
3) Provides a better option which doesn't change EVE in any way, except by removing the presence of AFK cloakers

And yes, AFK cloakers affect manly PVP roamers too. I spent a while D-scanning a system for a red in local, only to come up with nothing. Yes, the whole system was covered. Yes, when I logged on 4 hours later they were still there. Yes, there were no stations in the system.

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I just had to pick this one up.

I underlined precisely what made you look like a donkey-hat. Your alleged argument is an oppinion and nothing else. You have not followed any of the rules for presenting a neither a logical, situational or unbiased argument.

My personal oppinion on the matter. If cloaks are being screwed over I'd like a new counter for probes, tyvm. For example a module, that when activated pods all pilots in ships with probe launchers on them, but leaves the ships themselves intact.

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How are cloaks being 'screwed over'? If you want to cloak in a SB or hide a few km from a gate for 5-10 minutes, go ahead. But if you stay still for 15+ minutes straight and a ship with an Expanded Probe Launcher launches a cloak-detection probe, running a 5-10min minimum scan, then you're an AFK cloaker and deserve to give the prober a free killmail.

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Originally by: Kireiina

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Of course.

The current system allows a player to project threat (since he must be assumed to be active) with zero effort or risk on their part. That's broken game mechanics in any game.

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Originally by: baltec1

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Originally by: Kireiina

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Of course.

The current system allows a player to project threat (since he must be assumed to be active) with zero effort or risk on their part. That's broken game mechanics in any game.

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So how are we to fix the problem of a red sitting in station all day?

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Originally by: baltec1

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Originally by: Kireiina

---

Of course.

The current system allows a player to project threat (since he must be assumed to be active) with zero effort or risk on their part. That's broken game mechanics in any game.

---

So how are we to fix the problem of a red sitting in station all day?

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Originally by: anonymous

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WE JUST DID SCIENCE!

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Originally by: Tchell Dahhn

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You win, and thank you.

Originally by: Zedic

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Perspective, have any? A player who may, or may not be AFK for X hours in your favorite AFK mining system is by no means "projecting threat" unless you decide to perceive his presence as a threat and alter ***YOUR*** game play.

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Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara

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Originally by: Zedic

---

Perspective, have any? A player who may, or may not be AFK for X hours in your favorite AFK mining system is by no means "projecting threat" unless you decide to perceive his presence as a threat and alter ***YOUR*** game play.

---

Of course an afk cloaker is a threat, it would be reckless to think it's not.
Perspective: you are alone in the system - no one can hurt you, it's a fact.
But if there's a hostile in system - he can hurt you, even if it's unlikely you still need to alter your game play. You need to perform extra effort, while the afk cloaker does not, he is free to leave the ship cloaked without any effort.

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Originally by: MASTERLESS SLAVE

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Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara

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Originally by: Zedic

---

Perspective, have any? A player who may, or may not be AFK for X hours in your favorite AFK mining system is by no means "projecting threat" unless you decide to perceive his presence as a threat and alter ***YOUR*** game play.

---

Of course an afk cloaker is a threat, it would be reckless to think it's not.
Perspective: you are alone in the system - no one can hurt you, it's a fact.
But if there's a hostile in system - he can hurt you, even if it's unlikely you still need to alter your game play. You need to perform extra effort, while the afk cloaker does not, he is free to leave the ship cloaked without any effort.

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WRONG. IF HES AFK HE CANT HURT YOU. FACT. AFK: AWAY FROM KEYBORD. HOW CAN HE HURT YOU

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Originally by: Rubet Gold

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I just wanted to stop by and mention, my new alt, just finished training Cloaking IV, trying to find a safe spot to leave her in tomorrow while I am at work...

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Originally by: Eric Policky

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How do you know he's AFK? You don't understand risk management.

Scenario: someone walks into a store you are in with a gun. Do you:
A) go about your business as if he is not a threat
B) assume the gun is loaded and gtfo

BTW the gun is not loaded, but you have no way of knowing that. If the gun is loaded, you don't know that it is in fact loaded until you get shot in the face. If you can't follow this analogy, go back to first grade.

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Originally by: Zedic

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I still think the "F U leave cloak alone" crowd is winning this troll fest. You idiots on the other team better pull it together, you're getting your asses handed to ya.

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Originally by: Skid Skahular

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PS thanks for the recipes.

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• 49.5% are trolls pretending to be in favor of nerfing AFK cloaking in order to stir people up

• 49.5% are trolls pretending to be in favor of nerfing local in order to stir people up

• 1% assorted idiots who take these forums seriously, people stumbling across the eve-o forums for the first time and misclicks

Originally by: Dewatts

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IED ROIDS!

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Originally by: Skid Skahular

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Originally by: Zedic

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I still think the "F U leave cloak alone" crowd is winning this troll fest. You idiots on the other team better pull it together, you're getting your asses handed to ya.

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They're AFK.
...They figured that was the most devastating thing they could do to our morale. I for one am petrified with terror and will be vacating this thread immediately following this post.

PS thanks for the recipes.

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Originally by: CCP Incognito

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PS the "time to P*nis" is the shortest time recorded in human history. :)

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Originally by: Terianna Eri

---

In this thread: some people making legitimate points and a lot of people with knee-jerking, whining, and general crybaby-ish behavior that their playstyle is being threatened.

I'll give you a hint: the guys trying to secure their systems aren't in the latter category.

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