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T2 ammo no longer useless?

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Natasha Fury	Posted - 2010.11.30 20:57:00 - [1] Edited by: Natasha Fury on 30/11/2010 20:59:16 Saw the patch notes and have not gotten around to actually playing with the new ammo. I wanted to hear some opinions on actually using lolconflag and other ammo.
Adacia Calla Minmatar Umbrella Research Group	Posted - 2010.11.30 22:36:00 - [2] Void and Hail are looking pretty tasty.
Sabrina Al'Kian	Posted - 2010.11.30 22:40:00 - [3] Javelin still has a velocity penalty, despite what the patch notes say.
Cataca	Posted - 2010.11.30 22:50:00 - [4] Void is still useless, not because of the 25% tracking penalty however, but mostly due to the medicore tracking of blasters, given their abysmal range.
Cyrus Mierre The Forsaken Legion	Posted - 2010.11.30 22:59:00 - [5] Originally by: Sabrina Al'Kian Javelin still has a velocity penalty, despite what the patch notes say. The references to javelin changes in the patch notes were about Javelin S/M/L the railgun ammo, not Javelin rockets
Istvaan Shogaatsu Caldari Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2010.11.30 23:27:00 - [6] I gave the new conflagration L a spin during today's Sansha event. Must say, they're a lot punchier than AN MF. Also they're green. This is awesome.
Templar Dane Amarrian Retribution	Posted - 2010.12.01 00:48:00 - [7] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu I gave the new conflagration L a spin during today's Sansha event. Must say, they're a lot punchier than AN MF. Also they're green. This is awesome. They're also nice, and always have been, in RR battleship slugouts. The even split between em/thermal is much nicer than the em heavy damage of multi.
Patri Andari Caldari Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer	Posted - 2010.12.01 01:15:00 - [8] Edited by: Patri Andari on 01/12/2010 01:16:34 Originally by: Cyrus Mierre Originally by: Sabrina Al'Kian Javelin still has a velocity penalty, despite what the patch notes say. The references to javelin changes in the patch notes were about Javelin S/M/L the railgun ammo, not Javelin rockets This^^ T2 missiles will become the only T2 ammo with ship drawbacks to speed and signature. Someone thought this was balanced. Imagine a way to make Caldari even more gimped. Patri I'll Roshambo You For That Titan!
Grimpak Gallente The Whitehound Corporation	Posted - 2010.12.01 01:17:00 - [9] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu I gave the new conflagration L a spin during today's Sansha event. Must say, they're a lot punchier than AN MF. Also they're green. This is awesome. indeed conflags got the long end of the stick on this boost. hail is.. meh, but still usable, while void is still as worthless as before. dunno about the longrange gun shortrange ammo tho. --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Headerman Minmatar Metanoia. Test Alliance Please Ignore	Posted - 2010.12.01 01:49:00 - [10] Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu I gave the new conflagration L a spin during today's Sansha event. Must say, they're a lot punchier than AN MF. Also they're green. This is awesome. indeed conflags got the long end of the stick on this boost. hail is.. meh, but still usable, while void is still as worthless as before. dunno about the longrange gun shortrange ammo tho. I know Barrage got it's cap penalty removed, and i think the long range lasers got it's shield reduction penalty removed too?

Nikuno	Posted - 2010.12.01 11:13:00 - [11] For rails javelin is still next to useless, and for blasters void tracking penalty still makes it the comedy option. No change for t2 ammo for hybrid users, what a wasted opportunity by CCP. Very disappointing
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.12.01 12:27:00 - [12] Originally by: Nikuno For rails javelin is still next to useless, and for blasters void tracking penalty still makes it the comedy option. No change for t2 ammo for hybrid users, what a wasted opportunity by CCP. Very disappointing It's not just a tracking penalty though, is it? Compare to Navy Antimatter: -25% tracking +25% optimal +11% damage (28% if you compare to non faction antimatter) So actually, if you're looking at tracking x optimal, that number comes out the same. And more raw damage is a good thing too.
1600 RT	Posted - 2010.12.01 12:50:00 - [13] Originally by: James Lyrus Originally by: Nikuno For rails javelin is still next to useless, and for blasters void tracking penalty still makes it the comedy option. No change for t2 ammo for hybrid users, what a wasted opportunity by CCP. Very disappointing It's not just a tracking penalty though, is it? Compare to Navy Antimatter: -25% tracking +25% optimal +11% damage (28% if you compare to non faction antimatter) So actually, if you're looking at tracking x optimal, that number comes out the same. And more raw damage is a good thing too. you are doing it wrong every chabge is an opportunity to whine about blaster even if the change is a buff
Grimpak Gallente The Whitehound Corporation	Posted - 2010.12.01 13:18:00 - [14] Originally by: Headerman Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu I gave the new conflagration L a spin during today's Sansha event. Must say, they're a lot punchier than AN MF. Also they're green. This is awesome. indeed conflags got the long end of the stick on this boost. hail is.. meh, but still usable, while void is still as worthless as before. dunno about the longrange gun shortrange ammo tho. I know Barrage got it's cap penalty removed, and i think the long range lasers got it's shield reduction penalty removed too? barrage had cap penalty? --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Rastigan Caldari Ars ex Discordia Test Alliance Please Ignore	Posted - 2010.12.01 14:23:00 - [15] Originally by: Nikuno For rails javelin is still next to useless, and for blasters void tracking penalty still makes it the comedy option. No change for t2 ammo for hybrid users, what a wasted opportunity by CCP. Very disappointing Javelin is still 100% useless, a Megathron with 425mm railgun II with Javelin L uses more cap than a Tachyon beam Apoc with T2 short range ammo (Gleam), and of course the Railgun tracks worse and does less dps. On a Geddon it will use more cap than a Javelin L ship, but then again it will be doing over 40% more dps. Failguns are still fail.
Shootmenot dammit	Posted - 2010.12.01 14:32:00 - [16] Edited by: Shootmenot dammit on 01/12/2010 14:33:09 Edited by: Shootmenot dammit on 01/12/2010 14:32:30 So let me see if I got this properly. They revisited some T2 ammo options because they weren't seeing any action due to their penalties. In the end, the biggest improvement went to the race/weapon system that already had Scorch, and the Failgun/LOLster charges are still simply not worth it, so people will still load faction antimatter in their Hybrids. Is that it?
1600 RT	Posted - 2010.12.01 14:44:00 - [17] Originally by: Shootmenot dammit Edited by: Shootmenot dammit on 01/12/2010 14:33:09 Edited by: Shootmenot dammit on 01/12/2010 14:32:30 So let me see if I got this properly. They revisited some T2 ammo options because they weren't seeing any action due to their penalties. In the end, the biggest improvement went to the race/weapon system that already had Scorch, and the Failgun/LOLster charges are still simply not worth it, so people will still load faction antimatter in their Hybrids. Is that it? no didnt got this properly. the improvement was the same for every short range ammo, tracking penality reduced and a straight damage buff to the ex T2 short range ammo. on top of that they removed all the penalty to the ship like the velocity decrease for railguns ammo
irion felpamy Minmatar Assisted Genocide Unprovoked Aggression	Posted - 2010.12.01 14:44:00 - [18] Originally by: Rastigan Originally by: Nikuno For rails javelin is still next to useless, and for blasters void tracking penalty still makes it the comedy option. No change for t2 ammo for hybrid users, what a wasted opportunity by CCP. Very disappointing Javelin is still 100% useless, a Megathron with 425mm railgun II with Javelin L uses more cap than a Tachyon beam Apoc with T2 short range ammo (Gleam), and of course the Railgun tracks worse and does less dps. On a Geddon it will use more cap than a Javelin L ship, but then again it will be doing over 40% more dps. Failguns are still fail. It is a shame the apoc and geddon can't fit a rack of tach's without fitting mods, the mega can fit 425's however.
Seriously Bored Minmatar	Posted - 2010.12.01 14:49:00 - [19] Originally by: irion felpamy It is a shame the apoc and geddon can't fit a rack of tach's without fitting mods, the mega can fit 425's however. Tachs are in no way comparable to 425s. Stat wise, Mega Beam Lasers are on the same level as 425mm Rails. Bad example.
irion felpamy Minmatar Assisted Genocide Unprovoked Aggression	Posted - 2010.12.01 15:27:00 - [20] Edited by: irion felpamy on 01/12/2010 15:27:44 Originally by: Seriously Bored Originally by: irion felpamy It is a shame the apoc and geddon can't fit a rack of tach's without fitting mods, the mega can fit 425's however. Tachs are in no way comparable to 425s. Stat wise, Mega Beam Lasers are on the same level as 425mm Rails. Bad example. And as such comparing their firepower and cap use will be misleading.

The Djego Minmatar Hellequin Inc.	Posted - 2010.12.01 15:55:00 - [21] Originally by: James Lyrus Originally by: Nikuno For rails javelin is still next to useless, and for blasters void tracking penalty still makes it the comedy option. No change for t2 ammo for hybrid users, what a wasted opportunity by CCP. Very disappointing It's not just a tracking penalty though, is it? Compare to Navy Antimatter: -25% tracking +25% optimal +11% damage (28% if you compare to non faction antimatter) So actually, if you're looking at tracking x optimal, that number comes out the same. And more raw damage is a good thing too. However antimatter will have the far better hit quality at void optimal what nearly all the time makes up for the raw dps loses. In general gameplay you will sometimes get a bit more dps on the target, however it needs a target at void optimal the hole fight that you can allready track perfectly well(BC vs BC or frig vs Cruiser etc.) reducing the tracking advantage of AM to zero or a heavy tackeled target(2-3 Webs or painters on the target). Most of the time however you will barely break even in damage dealed with void compared to AM, since you are outside of the scenarios above. You can't pin down your target at your optimal, you will allready have tracking issues and the reduced falloff + lower tracking at close make the sweet spot of void far to small even with BS sized Neutrons. Btw, void also got a 50% Falloff penalty. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
Zyress	Posted - 2010.12.01 16:32:00 - [22] Originally by: Patri Andari Edited by: Patri Andari on 01/12/2010 01:16:34 Originally by: Cyrus Mierre Originally by: Sabrina Al'Kian Javelin still has a velocity penalty, despite what the patch notes say. The references to javelin changes in the patch notes were about Javelin S/M/L the railgun ammo, not Javelin rockets This^^ T2 missiles will become the only T2 ammo with ship drawbacks to speed and signature. Someone thought this was balanced. Imagine a way to make Caldari even more gimped. this...
1600 RT	Posted - 2010.12.01 16:34:00 - [23] Originally by: The Djego Btw, void also got a 50% Falloff penalty. btw Hail have same tracking penalty of void same -50% falloff and -50% optimal instead of the -25% of void. resulting that hail and void user ha practically to fight at the same range with almost the same tracking but still people consider it as good
1600 RT	Posted - 2010.12.01 16:37:00 - [24] Edited by: Patri Andari on 01/12/2010 01:16:34 Originally by: Cyrus Mierre Originally by: Sabrina Al'Kian Javelin still has a velocity penalty, despite what the patch notes say. The references to javelin changes in the patch notes were about Javelin S/M/L the railgun ammo, not Javelin rockets This^^ T2 missiles will become the only T2 ammo with ship drawbacks to speed and signature. Someone thought this was balanced. Imagine a way to make Caldari even more gimped. T2 missile are different precision/javelin ammo not only give you more range but also give you more "tracking" while turrets ammo nerf your tracking for the extra damage.
The Djego Minmatar Hellequin Inc.	Posted - 2010.12.01 17:04:00 - [25] Originally by: 1600 RT Originally by: The Djego Btw, void also got a 50% Falloff penalty. btw Hail have same tracking penalty of void same -50% falloff and -50% optimal instead of the -25% of void. resulting that hail and void user have practically to fight at the same range with almost the same tracking but still people consider it as good James compared it to antimatter... As for Hail, yes it is as bad as Void on plated fits. It is semi deacend with BS sized falloff bonused hulls(tested it with a Vargour and 2 TEs), on the Pest however I couldn't find a real sweet spot even vs BS(20km falloff after the penalty) where the extra dps isn't compleetly eaten up by the falloff or tracking penaltie. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.12.01 17:16:00 - [26] Originally by: 1600 RT T2 missile are different precision/javelin ammo not only give you more range but also give you more "tracking" while turrets ammo nerf your tracking for the extra damage. Not quite - Jav missiles have the same explosion velocity and radius as T1, and a slightly lower DRF, making their "tracking" slightly worse than T1 in practice. The speed penalty on Jav missiles is really annoying and makes them, while not useless, certainly awkward to use, especially on the frigate scale. I don't see why Jav missiles get the velocity penalty and Scorch doesn't. Sure, Scorch gets a tracking penalty, but this is more than countered by its high optimal.
Zyress	Posted - 2010.12.01 17:24:00 - [27] Originally by: 1600 RT Edited by: 1600 RT on 01/12/2010 16:37:49 Originally by: Patri Andari Edited by: Patri Andari on 01/12/2010 01:16:34 Originally by: Cyrus Mierre Originally by: Sabrina Al'Kian Javelin still has a velocity penalty, despite what the patch notes say. The references to javelin changes in the patch notes were about Javelin S/M/L the railgun ammo, not Javelin rockets This^^ T2 missiles will become the only T2 ammo with ship drawbacks to speed and signature. Someone thought this was balanced. Imagine a way to make Caldari even more gimped. T2 missile are different precision/javelin ammo not only give you more range but also give you more "tracking" while turrets ammo nerf your tracking for the extra damage. Precision /javelin ammo was never the issue as none of the other T2 long range variants were buffed but where is the love for Rage/Fury ammo? Admittedly the speed nerf for using Javelins is annoying especially since the only reason to use it is because some faster ship is kiting you but I'm not asking for anything the other T2 long range variants didn't get. Just a balanced buff.
Terianna Eri Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn	Posted - 2010.12.01 17:31:00 - [28] Originally by: Grimpak dunno about the longrange gun shortrange ammo tho. Its still completely **ing worthless because all they did was remove the **ed penalties like SHIELD HP. The MASSIVE (-75% range, -25% tracking) penalites are still there and it still does all of 1% damage over faction its useless ________________ Originally by:** CCP Incognito PS the "time to P*nis" is the shortest time recorded in human history. :)
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.12.01 17:36:00 - [29] Velocity penalty on jav missiles makes same sense as velocity penalty on scorch, barrage or null. Wait, there is no velocity penalty on scorch, barrage and null...
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2010.12.01 17:49:00 - [30] Originally by: Grimpak hail is.. meh, but still usable, while void is still as worthless as before. Not so sure there, having experimented a bit on frigate hulls, I like the new void over antimatter a lot. The thing is, in a situation where you'd use antimatter before, you have range control, thus tracking is a non-issue as you have transversal control as well, and the situations where you exploit tracking over raw damage are few and far between. As far as hail goes, I didnt get much use out of it so far, since half the time where you have range control you go for barrage and range anyway, or you are trying to exploit tracking up close and thus cant afford the tracking penalty. Plus the fixed damage type does offset the extra damage quite a bit, given PP is such a nice default type in case you arent sure if the target is shield or armor.



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