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Ghost Creal	Posted - 2010.12.02 16:24:00 - [1] I have an idea for producing T2 BPO's and it works along the same pricing structure as T1 BPO's this being that you can buy for example a Raven BPO for roughly 1 Billion isk which equates to roughly 15 Ravens, therefore if you introduce the ability to reverse engineer (or what ever you wish to call it) for example golems to produce a T2 BPO it should in theory take 14 Golems reverse engineered = 1 Golem BPO, the same could be done for all t2 equipment and come to that also for t1. This is just an idea but I think it could be worth looking at particuarly as ccp seems to want to put all items into player control. Please discuss further.
rain9441 Big Head Want Dolly	Posted - 2010.12.02 16:30:00 - [2] No.
Ghost Creal	Posted - 2010.12.02 16:32:00 - [3] Originally by: rain9441 No. Please expand on your reasoning or is it that you have T2 BPO's?
Tekota legion industries ltd Veni Vidi Vici Alliance	Posted - 2010.12.02 16:35:00 - [4] Also no. And I don't have any T2 BPOs.
rain9441 Big Head Want Dolly	Posted - 2010.12.02 16:38:00 - [5] Originally by: Ghost Creal Originally by: rain9441 No. Please expand on your reasoning or is it that you have T2 BPO's? No I have no T2 BPOs. No I don't want to see more T2 BPOs entering the game. No I don't have a solution or reason to remove T2 BPOs from the game either. No I didn't save a bunch of money by switching to Geico.
SurrenderMonkey	Posted - 2010.12.02 17:26:00 - [6] Quote: Please discuss further. There's nothing to discuss here. No. --------------- Faction-Militia:Player-Alliance::Newbie-corp:Player-corp
Brian Ballsack	Posted - 2010.12.02 17:27:00 - [7] nah bad idea plus T2 bpos arent much use anyway, you can only produce one lot from it each time, inventors run the market as they can produce from more than 10 bps each time.
Asarus Atreyu The Kairos Syndicate Transmission Lost	Posted - 2010.12.02 17:28:00 - [8] Go to the sell orders section of the forum and buy a T2 BPO, that's how most people got theirs.. ---------------------- Interested in a change? Come see what wormhole life offers in LOST-Pub!
Ghost Creal	Posted - 2010.12.02 18:14:00 - [9] Originally by: Brian Ballsack nah bad idea plus T2 bpos arent much use anyway, you can only produce one lot from it each time, inventors run the market as they can produce from more than 10 bps each time. Well one advantage to using a T2 BPO is that you can research and copy them to improve your profit margins, plus if your producing bpc's from a bpo they take the ME and PE with them from the bpo and for example you could run off copies and produce 10 sabre's at ME 100 and PE 100 if your prepared to do the research thereby increasing your profit margins and using 10 manufacturing slots meaning you'd produce 100 sabres in 1 go at considerably lower cost than trying to invent them, this will in turn drive down the cost of T2 production and then cost cost of T2 ships and equipment. As a side note you can then use the slots you were using for invention for copying.
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2010.12.02 18:24:00 - [10] Originally by: Ghost Creal Well one advantage to using a T2 BPO is that you can research and copy them to improve your profit margins, You do know that it takes almost twice as long to make a 1 run copy than to build 1 item from a T2 BPO right? Didn't think so, thats why this whole idea is full of fail.

Korn Beef	Posted - 2010.12.02 18:27:00 - [11] The problem with T2 production is all the players controling BPO's handed out in the lottery IMO. They are able to produce ships cheaper than anyone using invention and therefore are able to make huge profits while anyone using invention is stuck with scraps. The above idea solves the lottery issue and allows any player to make a place for themselves in industry. It also means that prices for tech two would move to a reasonable profit as opposed to the inflated prices we now see (imagine a T2 ship loss being close to covered by insurance). Great Idea IMO.
Tekota legion industries ltd Veni Vidi Vici Alliance	Posted - 2010.12.02 18:45:00 - [12] Originally by: Korn Beef The problem with T2 production is all the players controling BPO's handed out in the lottery IMO. They are able to produce ships cheaper than anyone using invention and therefore are able to make huge profits while anyone using invention is stuck with scraps. The above idea solves the lottery issue and allows any player to make a place for themselves in industry. It also means that prices for tech two would move to a reasonable profit as opposed to the inflated prices we now see (imagine a T2 ship loss being close to covered by insurance). Great Idea IMO. 2 years and 4 months old is this char. And in all that time, nothing has moved them to write a single post on the forums - not even any of the several far better argued T2 BPO posts which have come and gone over the years. Nothing at all until today that is, when you felt the need to come in and chime in support for this hairbrained scheme when everyone else was bashing it. Obvious alt is oh so obvious and further undermines any argument you thought you had. On the plus side, you have now revealed that Korn Beef and Ghost Creal are one and the same, and information, targets, is always valuable.
MR Spleen Minmatar Instant Annihilation Everto Rex Regis	Posted - 2010.12.02 18:55:00 - [13] Originally by: Tekota Originally by: Korn Beef The problem with T2 production is all the players controling BPO's handed out in the lottery IMO. They are able to produce ships cheaper than anyone using invention and therefore are able to make huge profits while anyone using invention is stuck with scraps. The above idea solves the lottery issue and allows any player to make a place for themselves in industry. It also means that prices for tech two would move to a reasonable profit as opposed to the inflated prices we now see (imagine a T2 ship loss being close to covered by insurance). Great Idea IMO. 2 years and 4 months old is this char. And in all that time, nothing has moved them to write a single post on the forums - not even any of the several far better argued T2 BPO posts which have come and gone over the years. Nothing at all until today that is, when you felt the need to come in and chime in support for this hairbrained scheme when everyone else was bashing it. Obvious alt is oh so obvious and further undermines any argument you thought you had. On the plus side, you have now revealed that Korn Beef and Ghost Creal are one and the same, and information, targets, is always valuable. Actually Ghost is my alt and not other char and I've been playing over 6 years and was around for the lottery :) IA now recruiting
Kutka Gallente Ecoli Corporate Holdings	Posted - 2010.12.02 19:06:00 - [14] They should remove the T2 BPO's out of the game, because many were given away in a lottery and newer players have no chance to compete in a truly player driven economy. How could CCP push for a player driven economy when there are items used in production in the game, and a select group of people have a monopoly on said items. Why not give every player that started in 2009 a T2 BPO for a Marauder, how would a 2003 player feel? It is really goofy and the current production and invention process is unduly expensive for anyone who does not own one of those coveted T2 BPO's. Kutka
rain9441 Big Head Want Dolly	Posted - 2010.12.02 19:12:00 - [15] Up up and away, this thread is now the runaway nerf T2 BPO thread of the week. Hey can I have a T3 BPO? Please please please?
Barbicane TGUN Industries	Posted - 2010.12.02 19:51:00 - [16] Originally by: Kutka Why not give every player that started in 2009 a T2 BPO for a Marauder, how would a 2003 player feel? I wouldn't mind at all. You and the other 10,000 or so 2009 players are more than welcome to start building Golems from your new BPOs and watch the profits roll in.
Dasola Minmatar	Posted - 2010.12.02 19:55:00 - [17] So first they whine to remove t2 bpo, that failed... No they want to create more t2 bpo, Thats going to fail.... We have invention allready and it work very well. Gives just about anyone that has skills for it chance to invent t2 bpc.. So i really dont see point on OP. And no, i dont own any t2 bpo either. But i do have invention alt
ishi ryu Minmatar Atlantic Solutions	Posted - 2010.12.02 20:52:00 - [18] Originally by: Korn Beef The problem with T2 production is all the players controling BPO's handed out in the lottery IMO. They are able to produce ships cheaper than anyone using invention and therefore are able to make huge profits while anyone using invention is stuck with scraps. I have a few "handed" out BP's... so if these things are making me such a huge profit like you seem to know, please enligthen me on a few things... how is it possible i make more isk from renting them out then producing from them ???? or... why is it that on a monthly production base i still make a ****load more isk from invention then from these bloody things ??? Maybe you want to share your calculations on that because after all these years i still seem to be doing it wrong To be honest, if you think that the most priced posession in industrial eve is a T2 bpo, then you really need to have your head checked... top notch invention skills and a few posses are far more worth but it seems many new folks are to lazy to go that way or are just to blind to see that... Oww and for yelling out for T3 bpo's.... that market is allready being overrun by the "free mats" folks so there is certainly no use for them...ccp should nerf the RE randoms even further to be honest... TL/DR no, and go away
Aernth	Posted - 2010.12.02 22:48:00 - [19] I do not like or dislike this plan but I do tire of re-inventing the wheel every time I want to make a tech II item. At some point you would think that after creating hundreds of hammerhead II's that I would not have to throw a bunch of crap in a pot, stir, and hope I get something good. Constantly inventing without being able to increase the chance of success through experience is a stupid system.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2010.12.02 23:22:00 - [20] Originally by: Kutka They should remove the T2 BPO's out of the game, because many were given away in a lottery and newer players have no chance to compete in a truly player driven economy. How could CCP push for a player driven economy when there are items used in production in the game, and a select group of people have a monopoly on said items. Why not give every player that started in 2009 a T2 BPO for a Marauder, how would a 2003 player feel? It is really goofy and the current production and invention process is unduly expensive for anyone who does not own one of those coveted T2 BPO's. We will laugh like mad. Then we will sell more raven, meghatron and so on to the 2009 players building marauders. Those of us that control the right moons would be very happy. The others will not be unhappy to buy marauders at 150 millions and recycle them for the components as thousands of new players will be making them and then discovering that the market is saturated. You have no idea of how the market work.

heheheh Phoenix Club	Posted - 2010.12.03 04:45:00 - [21] Posting as i always do in these crappy threads. I make more ISK using invention than my corpmate does from his BPO, and we both produce the same mod, and get the mats for the same price.
Feyleaf	Posted - 2010.12.03 06:15:00 - [22] Edited by: Feyleaf on 03/12/2010 06:22:37 Edited by: Feyleaf on 03/12/2010 06:21:44 Edited by: Feyleaf on 03/12/2010 06:21:04 Edited by: Feyleaf on 03/12/2010 06:17:30 t2 bpo's must go! its long overdue. A solution would be a massive buff to invention. And all this #%&" about it not mattering coz invention can produce more units is bull, you can easily invent and sell while grinding out units on your bpo at prices no inventor will ever compete with, also invention takes work. Its basically a money making machine w minimal work.. whether it impacts the economy in any meaningful way is really irellevant. t2 bpo's existing is kinda like if ccp removed learning skills but you still had them if you trained them before they were removed and new players couldnt get them.
Feyleaf	Posted - 2010.12.03 06:53:00 - [23] Originally by: heheheh Posting as i always do in these crappy threads. I make more ISK using invention than my corpmate does from his BPO, and we both produce the same mod, and get the mats for the same price. Per unit? isk/hour? else that is really irellevant information that cant really be put in any meaningful comparison hehe.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2010.12.03 07:31:00 - [24] Originally by: Feyleaf Edited by: Feyleaf on 03/12/2010 07:10:09 Originally by: heheheh Posting as i always do in these crappy threads. I make more ISK using invention than my corpmate does from his BPO, and we both produce the same mod, and get the mats for the same price. Per unit? isk/hour? else that is really irellevant information that cant really be put in any meaningful comparison hehe. You do know how little effort it actually takes to keep that t2bpo running 24/7? He could basically be inventing as much as you at the same time if he wanted. This would be fine if new players could get them(from agents!!) Still a better idea to buff invention now and turn bpo's into 500run bpc's with a few months warning. My dear boy, you can do the same, just fork out 10-20 billions to buy one T2 BPo and you can start getting all the "easy isk" than you want. The big difference between a T2 BPO and inventing is that to start using a T2 BPO you need to pay teens of billions, to start inventing you need to pay less than 100 millions. So, with a identical starting investment a inventor will get more isk because it will be running several brought and already trained characters whose subscription is already paid for years in advance against 1 character using 1 BPO. It will require more player time, but it will pay more isk. The only real advantage of a T2 BPO is that the player spend less time building from it, but that advantage cost a lot of billions.
Feyleaf	Posted - 2010.12.03 10:52:00 - [25] Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Feyleaf Edited by: Feyleaf on 03/12/2010 07:10:09 Originally by: heheheh Posting as i always do in these crappy threads. I make more ISK using invention than my corpmate does from his BPO, and we both produce the same mod, and get the mats for the same price. Per unit? isk/hour? else that is really irellevant information that cant really be put in any meaningful comparison hehe. You do know how little effort it actually takes to keep that t2bpo running 24/7? He could basically be inventing as much as you at the same time if he wanted. This would be fine if new players could get them(from agents!!) Still a better idea to buff invention now and turn bpo's into 500run bpc's with a few months warning. My dear boy, you can do the same, just fork out 10-20 billions to buy one T2 BPo and you can start getting all the "easy isk" than you want. The big difference between a T2 BPO and inventing is that to start using a T2 BPO you need to pay teens of billions, to start inventing you need to pay less than 100 millions. So, with a identical starting investment a inventor will get more isk because it will be running several brought and already trained characters whose subscription is already paid for years in advance against 1 character using 1 BPO. It will require more player time, but it will pay more isk. The only real advantage of a T2 BPO is that the player spend less time building from it, but that advantage cost a lot of billions. you are kinda missiong the point.. t2 bpo's back with agents or remove t2 bpos, What your proposing is a non-fair work-around to the bpo's not being available thru agents. Would be like saying teeth dont matter coz u could just eat soup. Fact is t2 bpo's should be removed, practical concideration comes after the fact.
Daddy's Princess The Player Haters Corp	Posted - 2010.12.03 11:28:00 - [26] And if they were to bring back the lottery, or IF you were around back when there was a lottery and... wait for it... you didn't get one? That would be unfair too and you should get one right? Also you make several times more with invention than with t2 BPO. And I say this as a former owner of multiple prints. But but it's so easy to print isk lol. Maybe 3 years ago buddy, now it's a drop in the ocean. Unless of course you feel you deserve a t2 bpo for every slot you can run? In that case start saving and buy them like pretty much everyone that wields multiple t2 BPOS, and stop *****ing.
Greg Huff	Posted - 2010.12.03 11:29:00 - [27] Life isn't fair, and EVE certainly isn't either. If you have a T2 BPO that you won in a lottery - Congratulations, consider your loyalty to CCP rewarded. If you bought a T2 BPO - You have made a (potentially hefty) business decision that I hope will pay off for you.
Feyleaf	Posted - 2010.12.03 11:43:00 - [28] Edited by: Feyleaf on 03/12/2010 11:45:03 Originally by: Daddy's Princess And if they were to bring back the lottery, or IF you were around back when there was a lottery and... wait for it... you didn't get one? That would be unfair too and you should get one right? Also you make several times more with invention than with t2 BPO. And I say this as a former owner of multiple prints. But but it's so easy to print isk lol. Maybe 3 years ago buddy, now it's a drop in the ocean. Unless of course you feel you deserve a t2 bpo for every slot you can run? In that case start saving and buy them like pretty much everyone that wields multiple t2 BPOS, and stop *****ing. You had the oppotunity.. but thats beside the point.. doesnt matter who its fair or unfair too.. its something wrong with the game that needs to be fixed :) Doesnt really matter if its a drop in the ocean now?..tho that should limit the amount of whine? Again missing the point.. its about a level playing field ;)
Karia Sur	Posted - 2010.12.03 13:09:00 - [29] () Is the current T2 BPO system unfair - No () Was the system used to spread these T2 BPs unfair - To anyone who wasnt around at the start, Yes. () Do I see a solution which will end up with everyone happy - No Like already mentioned, the lottery was a thing of the past, a mistake. However there is just no way imo, that you can change the way it is and have both sides happy.
Rethguad Lamina Genesis Tec	Posted - 2010.12.03 13:13:00 - [30] @OP - If you cant make decent money from invention then your doing it wrong. I am not an indy minded person and am still very new to this side of eve. I am making a great ROI and it keeps getting better with everything I learn....... T2 BPO's arnt the problem and doing anything to them isnt going to provide a solution. PS. I dont own any T2 BPO's. ----------------------- Renting space in research/lab slots - EVE-Mail for info. Selling Hammerhead II BPC's - EVE-Mail for info.

Viktoria Potsfel	Posted - 2010.12.03 13:22:00 - [31] Originally by: Rethguad Lamina @OP - If you cant make decent money from invention then your doing it wrong. I am not an indy minded person and am still very new to this side of eve. I am making a great ROI and it keeps getting better with everything I learn....... T2 BPO's arnt the problem and doing anything to them isnt going to provide a solution. PS. I dont own any T2 BPO's. Solution is simple. you can never make everyone happy? previous changes rarely did this either. Its just something that needs to be done.
Feyleaf	Posted - 2010.12.03 13:49:00 - [32] Originally by: Karia Sur () Is the current T2 BPO system unfair - No () Was the system used to spread these T2 BPs unfair - To anyone who wasnt around at the start, Yes. () Do I see a solution which will end up with everyone happy - No Like already mentioned, the lottery was a thing of the past, a mistake. However there is just no way imo, that you can change the way it is and have both sides happy. There are no "sides" only common sense.
Carniflex StarHunt R.A.G.E	Posted - 2010.12.03 13:57:00 - [33] Game design should not be based on making the select few happy. So I do not see any reason to keep those relics still around, especially as devs have pretty much agreed that lottery was mistake. Lets remove them, like the learning skills were removed, and move on with our lives I say. We have invention now. So 8 years is the current 'you can whine now' time - yes ? Well simple, give the current owners BPC's with enough runs to propduce from there for 8 years if thats what it takes. Should have been done back when invention was intruduced. Would have only 5 more years to go ;)
Jovialmadness	Posted - 2010.12.03 14:28:00 - [34] Originally by: Ghost Creal I have an idea for producing T2 BPO's and it works along the same pricing structure as T1 BPO's this being that you can buy for example a Raven BPO for roughly 1 Billion isk which equates to roughly 15 Ravens, therefore if you introduce the ability to reverse engineer (or what ever you wish to call it) for example golems to produce a T2 BPO it should in theory take 14 Golems reverse engineered = 1 Golem BPO, the same could be done for all t2 equipment and come to that also for t1. This is just an idea but I think it could be worth looking at particuarly as ccp seems to want to put all items into player control. Please discuss further. In before akita. I wont discuss it because you didnt think of the pure horror your idea would cause first before posting that crap.
Tasko Pal Aliastra	Posted - 2010.12.03 15:18:00 - [35] Whining about T2 BPOs again? Here's my take: if it ain't broke, then don't fix it. The usual reply is that "but but but it's broke because I don't have one". Anyone who wants a T2 BPO can just buy it. It's a prestige item like a supercap or those special issue station spinners. Sure you can make a modest amount of money off of a T2 BPO, but what would you expect for a industrialist, prestige item?
Feyleaf	Posted - 2010.12.03 16:29:00 - [36] Originally by: Tasko Pal Whining about T2 BPOs again? Here's my take: if it ain't broke, then don't fix it. The usual reply is that "but but but it's broke because I don't have one". Anyone who wants a T2 BPO can just buy it. It's a prestige item like a supercap or those special issue station spinners. Sure you can make a modest amount of money off of a T2 BPO, but what would you expect for a industrialist, prestige item? Still missing the point.. read previous posts.
Korn Beef	Posted - 2010.12.03 17:12:00 - [37] Removing the T2 BPO's from the game and using invention as the only method for production of T2 items would be a fair way of addressing the issue. I doubt that would lower prices for Tech two ships but it would level the field. IMO no need to give BPO owners an 8 year run BPC. Simply give them a 6 month warning till they will be removed from game.
Karia Sur	Posted - 2010.12.03 17:28:00 - [38] Edited by: Karia Sur on 03/12/2010 17:28:24 Originally by: Korn Beef IMO no need to give BPO owners an 8 year run BPC. Simply give them a 6 month warning till they will be removed from game. that has to be an even worse suggestion than the OPs. edit: and no, I dont own any T2 BPOs.
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2010.12.03 17:37:00 - [39] Originally by: Korn Beef Removing the T2 BPO's from the game and using invention as the only method for production of T2 items would be a fair way of addressing the issue. I doubt that would lower prices for Tech two ships but it would level the field. You do realize that inventing modules make more profit on items with a T2 than against items with no T2 BPOs right? Do the math on them comparing which is more profitable to invent. Ships however, the BPO holders do have an advantage, but again it comes down to which ships as a lot of them with T2 BPOs are still profitable to invent and build.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2010.12.03 18:41:00 - [40] Originally by: Feyleaf You dont have to pay tens of billions for a t2bpo.. you just have to have been around for the lottery.. you are kinda missing the point.What your proposing is a non-fair work-around to the bpo's not being available thru agents anymore. Would be like saying teeth dont matter coz u could just eat soup. Fact is t2 bpo's should be removed, practical concideration comes after that fact. A good comparison to removing the "lottery" but not the bpo's would be to just remove the learning skillbooks but let older players keep their learning skills. Wrong, the comparison removing the learning skills and older player keeping the SP. And lo and behold, it is exactly what CCP did. We had the use of the learning skills for years with the increased training speed and still we get the SP back. Unmotivaded envy is a bad beast. Try to keep it under control.

Greg Huff	Posted - 2010.12.03 19:07:00 - [41] Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Feyleaf You dont have to pay tens of billions for a t2bpo.. you just have to have been around for the lottery.. you are kinda missing the point.What your proposing is a non-fair work-around to the bpo's not being available thru agents anymore. Would be like saying teeth dont matter coz u could just eat soup. Fact is t2 bpo's should be removed, practical concideration comes after that fact. A good comparison to removing the "lottery" but not the bpo's would be to just remove the learning skillbooks but let older players keep their learning skills. Wrong, the comparison removing the learning skills and older player keeping the SP. And lo and behold, it is exactly what CCP did. We had the use of the learning skills for years with the increased training speed and still we get the SP back. Unmotivaded envy is a bad beast. Try to keep it under control. "let older players keep their learning skills." not SP
Viktoria Potsfel	Posted - 2010.12.03 20:03:00 - [42] Edited by: Viktoria Potsfel on 03/12/2010 20:03:46 Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Feyleaf You dont have to pay tens of billions for a t2bpo.. you just have to have been around for the lottery.. you are kinda missing the point.What your proposing is a non-fair work-around to the bpo's not being available thru agents anymore. Would be like saying teeth dont matter coz u could just eat soup. Fact is t2 bpo's should be removed, practical concideration comes after that fact. A good comparison to removing the "lottery" but not the bpo's would be to just remove the learning skillbooks but let older players keep their learning skills. Wrong, the comparison removing the learning skills and older player keeping the SP. And lo and behold, it is exactly what CCP did. We had the use of the learning skills for years with the increased training speed and still we get the SP back. Unmotivaded envy is a bad beast. Try to keep it under control. I bet you were on the highschool debating team? rofl
Tasko Pal Aliastra	Posted - 2010.12.03 20:26:00 - [43] Originally by: Feyleaf Still missing the point.. read previous posts. I read your posts first. So I didn't miss the point. Your complaint boils down to: Quote: Its basically a money making machine w minimal work.. whether it impacts the economy in any meaningful way is really irellevant. I'm entirely comfortable with that. After all, if you want a piece of the "money making machine", you can buy your own BPO. You don't have to hop into a time machine and go back to the days of the BPO lottery.
Dors Venabily	Posted - 2010.12.03 22:50:00 - [44] 3 kinds of people 1 the one that got it in the lottery and kept it. These do not care that much even if they got removed with let say replaced buy 1000 max run BPCs. They already made their money they are making nice steady income but nothing crazy due to the 1 at a time limit. 2 The speculators that bought them for crazy prices and still did not even break even. They tend to loose the most when they get replaced by BPC's These are the people saying go and buy it as well blah blah. 3 The Want to haves who complain because they are too dumb/lazy or both to do the calculations and make money on invention and have feeling that they can not compete. at this topic that has been repeated maybe more times then I need a lvl 4 raven fit
Aernth	Posted - 2010.12.04 02:44:00 - [45] I really do not have a problem with people that have been around or people willing to spend money having a tech II bpo. What I want is at least a way to increase the chance of successful invention once an item has already been invented. There should be an item that stores successful run numbers that can be used to increase the chance of success. This is simply a matter of common sense, no one should need to start from scratch every time they want to make something if they have made it before. A new type of data interface that stores successes and makes invention chance go up if it is used would be sweet.
Keta Fraal Nul and Booleans	Posted - 2010.12.04 05:32:00 - [46] Originally by: heheheh Posting as i always do in these crappy threads. I make more ISK using invention than my corpmate does from his BPO, and we both produce the same mod, and get the mats for the same price. Wait a minute... You said that all other factors being equal, it is more profitable for you to make a BPC from T1, then funnel in the salvage and exploration mats and per chance invent a BPC T2; than it is profitable to use a T2 BPO to make a T2 BPC? Somethin' done broke! --------------------------------------- Completely ignore any whining that is not toilet orientated.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2010.12.04 07:27:00 - [47] Edited by: Venkul Mul on 04/12/2010 07:30:40 Originally by: Greg Huff Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Feyleaf You dont have to pay tens of billions for a t2bpo.. you just have to have been around for the lottery.. you are kinda missing the point.What your proposing is a non-fair work-around to the bpo's not being available thru agents anymore. Would be like saying teeth dont matter coz u could just eat soup. Fact is t2 bpo's should be removed, practical concideration comes after that fact. A good comparison to removing the "lottery" but not the bpo's would be to just remove the learning skillbooks but let older players keep their learning skills. Wrong, the comparison [should be to] removing the learning skills and older player keeping the SP. And lo and behold, it is exactly what CCP did. We had the use of the learning skills for years with the increased training speed and still we get the SP back. Unmotivaded envy is a bad beast. Try to keep it under control. "let older players keep their learning skills." not SP To explain it point for point: - I have trained the learning skills years ago; - using them I have already got more extra SP than I did spent on the learning skills - and jet I get back the SP I invested in the learning skills even if I have already got a dividend from those learning skills. Clearer this way? Originally by: Dors Venabily 3 kinds of people 1 the one that got it in the lottery and kept it. These do not care that much even if they got removed with let say replaced buy 1000 max run BPCs. They already made their money they are making nice steady income but nothing crazy due to the 1 at a time limit. Not exact, if the T2 BPO are removed I pretend to have them substituted by a vanity item "gold framed T2 BPO" to keep in my hangar and to hang in my house when those are added.
Carniflex StarHunt R.A.G.E	Posted - 2010.12.04 10:17:00 - [48] I would like to point out, that having a BPO does not prevent one from inventing. Anyway, there is no competition between invention and BPO owners. Invention fills the demand that is left after BPO owners have produced as many items as they can from the BPO. What invention does by filling that demand left after BPO's is putting a upper cap on BPO profitability at level where it is economically sensible to invent that particular item/ship.
heheheh Phoenix Club	Posted - 2010.12.04 14:56:00 - [49] Edited by: heheheh on 04/12/2010 15:05:52 Originally by: Feyleaf Per unit? isk/hour? else that is really irellevant information that cant really be put in any meaningful comparison hehe. You do know how little effort it actually takes to keep that t2bpo running 24/7? He could basically be inventing as much as you at the same time if he wanted. This would be fine if new players could get them(from agents!!) hahahaha You are basically proving me correct by saying he could be inventing as many bpcs as i am at the same time, If you can produce greater numbers via invention then how can T2 BPO holders be running the markets ? Im not going to give you any numbers, i like to see the clueless try and argue a moot point because of jealousy, it amuses me. BPOs do nothing except give the owner a small extra income. Originally by: Keta Fraal Originally by: heheheh Posting as i always do in these crappy threads. I make more ISK using invention than my corpmate does from his BPO, and we both produce the same mod, and get the mats for the same price. Wait a minute... You said that all other factors being equal, it is more profitable for you to make a BPC from T1, then funnel in the salvage and exploration mats and per chance invent a BPC T2; than it is profitable to use a T2 BPO to make a T2 BPC? Somethin' done broke! nope, check reading comprehension 101, im saying i can make more ISK making amounts of an item via inventions, than i can with a t2 BPO, i can make many more t2 items during a time period, than some guy with one bpo. The copy times on a t2 bpo are stupidly long, no one in there right minds would make copies from a bpo if maximum profit is the target. Last post in this crap thread for me it is, im just gonna sit back and watch the clueless argue.
Tydius Nolad	Posted - 2010.12.04 15:44:00 - [50] Originally by: Kutka They should remove the T2 BPO's out of the game, because many were given away in a lottery and newer players have no chance to compete in a truly player driven economy. How could CCP push for a player driven economy when there are items used in production in the game, and a select group of people have a monopoly on said items. Why not give every player that started in 2009 a T2 BPO for a Marauder, how would a 2003 player feel? It is really goofy and the current production and invention process is unduly expensive for anyone who does not own one of those coveted T2 BPO's. I have over 2 dozen t2 BPOs. I didn't participate in the t2 BPO lottery. I acquired mine through social engineering and plain old purchasing. Why should I be punished for having been successful in my acquisitions? Oh, and BTW. The profit margins on most t2 BPOs suck. I make more isk building and selling rare t1 items than I do t2 items.

Carniflex StarHunt R.A.G.E	Posted - 2010.12.04 19:08:00 - [51] Originally by: Tydius Nolad Originally by: Kutka They should remove the T2 BPO's out of the game, because many were given away in a lottery and newer players have no chance to compete in a truly player driven economy. How could CCP push for a player driven economy when there are items used in production in the game, and a select group of people have a monopoly on said items. Why not give every player that started in 2009 a T2 BPO for a Marauder, how would a 2003 player feel? It is really goofy and the current production and invention process is unduly expensive for anyone who does not own one of those coveted T2 BPO's. I have over 2 dozen t2 BPOs. I didn't participate in the t2 BPO lottery. I acquired mine through social engineering and plain old purchasing. Why should I be punished for having been successful in my acquisitions? Oh, and BTW. The profit margins on most t2 BPOs suck. I make more isk building and selling rare t1 items than I do t2 items. It's not about you. So nothing personal. You acquired those items with risks associated with such items. There is patch every 6 months and what is profitable to day might not be so in 6 months time. T2 BPO's are high risk investment (with average ROI of above 3 years of continuous production by now) - and one of those risks is that they can be removed from game. CCP has indicated in the past that this is possibility, altho with the release of invention they stopped hinting that I must admit. You are basically gaming that when they are removed from the game you have got your ROI and hopefully the compensation (if any) sweetens the deal enough.
Emporer Norton	Posted - 2010.12.04 20:45:00 - [52] I wouldn't mind being able to research bpc's using same skills, time and materials as bpo but adding new bpo's probly isn't gonna happen
Shai 'Hulud Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2010.12.11 04:48:00 - [53] So t2 bpo's aren't fair? Is it "fair" that they had the copy times WAY too short when they first released t2 bpo's (I made 1.5 years production worth of barrage M bpc's in a 2 week job)? Is it "fair" that I made 500m-1b+ in just a couple hours every day for months before they nerfed high sec. complexes? Is it "fair" that I made 500m-1b+ in just a couple hours every day for months in the high end cosmos missions before they nerfed them (tanked in a non-remote repped jaguar btw)? Is it "fair" if I hunt estamel for 2 years, find him, and he drops crap... while someone else may find him first day trying and make 10's of billions? Is it "fair" if I take all your stuff? Is it "fair" that the people who tried for the t2 bpo lottery and didn't get one have been gaining datacores for YEARS on inactive accounts and now no one will be able to soon? Is it "fair" that lvl 4's don't pay as well as they did before they were nerfed? Is it "fair" that half of this game is essentially derived from dice rolls? Should we simply delete all assets tied to activities that have now been changed? I hate to be the one to break this to you guys, but EVE is not fair. MMO's are not fair. Until you learn to actively seek out these advantages, rather than whining about those that are gone, you will always be complaining about what I have... which is simply more than you. The exact form of this asset inequality is rather irrelevant.
Mr Dilkington	Posted - 2010.12.11 14:39:00 - [54] Any manufacturer with a brain sold their t2 BPOs from the lottery, for silly money, to the idiots queing up to buy them, and then took himself into invention instead. Having said that, i like these fools willing to pay out billions for a BPO with a price based on five years or more profit, they are the people that made alot of us rich, and continue to do so.
Carniflex StarHunt R.A.G.E	Posted - 2010.12.11 14:54:00 - [55] Originally by: Mr Dilkington Any manufacturer with a brain sold their t2 BPOs from the lottery, for silly money, to the idiots queing up to buy them, and then took himself into invention instead. Having said that, i like these fools willing to pay out billions for a BPO with a price based on five years or more profit, they are the people that made alot of us rich, and continue to do so. More likley they are the people who run bot farms and are looking for easy way to launder the isk. Botfarm pile of isk and then 'scam' pile of T2 BPO's out of the botfarm to your main. There - easier than selling titans or motherships to yourself.
Ghost Creal	Posted - 2010.12.13 00:35:00 - [56] I think that this thread went slighly off topic but anyway one of my allaince m8's came up with a descent suggestion and that was during invention there is a slim chance of getting a bpo instead of a bpc and as he has had T2 bpo's since the lottery I was suprised that he wants to see more T2 bpo's coming into game although I still like the idea of having to reverse 15 golems to get a golem bpo :)
Carniflex StarHunt R.A.G.E	Posted - 2010.12.13 05:17:00 - [57] Originally by: Ghost Creal I think that this thread went slighly off topic but anyway one of my allaince m8's came up with a descent suggestion and that was during invention there is a slim chance of getting a bpo instead of a bpc and as he has had T2 bpo's since the lottery I was suprised that he wants to see more T2 bpo's coming into game although I still like the idea of having to reverse 15 golems to get a golem bpo :) It would obsolete invention over some time and a little while later only point to do invention would be pumping it enough to get the BPO. Even if you put the probability at 0.001%. Failing removal of T2 BPO's altogether though it is one of the possibilities to 'fix' them. Quite often suggested in such threads.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2010.12.13 08:57:00 - [58] Originally by: Carniflex Originally by: Ghost Creal I think that this thread went slighly off topic but anyway one of my allaince m8's came up with a descent suggestion and that was during invention there is a slim chance of getting a bpo instead of a bpc and as he has had T2 bpo's since the lottery I was suprised that he wants to see more T2 bpo's coming into game although I still like the idea of having to reverse 15 golems to get a golem bpo :) It would obsolete invention over some time and a little while later only point to do invention would be pumping it enough to get the BPO. Even if you put the probability at 0.001%. Failing removal of T2 BPO's altogether though it is one of the possibilities to 'fix' them. Quite often suggested in such threads. It would exchange the "remove lottery BPO they are killing invention" threads with "I was too late to invention and now it is not worthwhile to invent anything, the other guys already have researched BPO of all the T2 items". It could work only if CCP was capable of introducing several new T2 items every patch and the invention process for a BPO was so long and involved that it would require at least 6 months for the first BPO to roll out. Too much work for too little return on CCP part.
Justin Cody Caldari T.A.L.O.N. Company SOUL CARTEL	Posted - 2010.12.13 13:39:00 - [59] There are many creative things that could be done to improve industry and this is a good idea. It may not be the best...seeing as how everyone has a bag full of hate and **** for Mr Spleen, but I don't see why it couldn't be in testing. There's quite a bit to be changed in this game and don't be surprised someday when T2 is eclipsed by something better T4->5 and beyond. don't knock it until you've tried it. Remind people that profit is the difference between revenue and expense. This makes you look smart. Scott Adams
Dasola Minmatar	Posted - 2010.12.13 15:51:00 - [60] So much cry over t2 bpo. And only reason to change them seems to be, becouse ccp changes so many other things in game... or Becouse i was not ingame when lottery of them was on... Seriously people, if you cant make profit on invention your doing it wrong. I see bossibilities of profit everywhere, despite of some t2 bpo owners producing stuff. Just like IRL industry, not everything is worth manufacturing. Sooner you realise this fact, you starting your ingame business profitably. Do your research on item before you invest on makeing them. CCP gave players control of most of market just so we could compete on it. So it would be as real market as virtual economy can be. Personally i think t2 bpo are fine as they are. And no, i still dont own any t2 bpo and have no plans on buying one.

Dr Chau Caldari	Posted - 2010.12.14 01:59:00 - [61] Originally by: Greg Huff Life isn't fair, and EVE certainly isn't either. If you have a T2 BPO that you won in a lottery - Congratulations, consider your loyalty to CCP rewarded. If you bought a T2 BPO - You have made a (potentially hefty) business decision that I hope will pay off for you. This.
Linna Excel	Posted - 2010.12.15 20:03:00 - [62] Edited by: Linna Excel on 15/12/2010 20:03:30 Originally by: Dr Chau Originally by: Greg Huff Life isn't fair, and EVE certainly isn't either. This. Since it's not fair, let's make the people who have BPOs or do inventions cry. Silly question but if you want a BPO, is it within the rules to put bounties on and pod the people that have them until they fork them over? For example, if alliance X has a few BPOs alliance Y goes to war with X until X defeats Y or Y pummels X to the point they hand over BPOs.
Carniflex StarHunt R.A.G.E	Posted - 2010.12.15 20:20:00 - [63] Originally by: Linna Excel Silly question but if you want a BPO, is it within the rules to put bounties on and pod the people that have them until they fork them over? For example, if alliance X has a few BPOs alliance Y goes to war with X until X defeats Y or Y pummels X to the point they hand over BPOs. Bounties are poddings are fine although note that your target will need to have negative sec status for you to be able to place a bounty on them. As soon as the bounty exceeds their clone cost they are happy to jumpcone to implant free body and pod themselves with alt for some cash. You can try ofc. Although I suspect the effort would make people lol not to cry. Thing is those things do not need ever to leave a station. Good luck camping a combat pilot in 0.0 alliance into his station while the innocent looking unnamed NPC corp alt produces the stuff and hauls it to Jita. He and his few hundred friends will surely be terrified ;) It still amazes me how people seem to think empire war is something more than mild annoyance. I mean even I as an individual, that is not particularly keen on production or trading has a NPC corp freighter alt that is not associated with me in any way. All 0.0 corporations I know of in any depth have several of such characters. Alliances I know of have NPC corp alts that can fly and jump around the jump freighters not to mention the regular ones. Usual suggestion for new players who join a 0.0 alliance is to make an NPC corp hauling alt for empire. Bestower is even faster to train now that you dont have to train up learnings and it can carry BC size hulls around just fine. Around 20 000 m3 of space if you rig it. Sigil can be nanoed to be relatively agile if cargo need is smaller.
Eastman Color	Posted - 2010.12.16 14:18:00 - [64] Originally by: Ghost Creal I have an idea for producing T2 BPO's and it works along the same pricing structure as T1 BPO's this being that you can buy for example a Raven BPO for roughly 1 Billion isk which equates to roughly 15 Ravens, therefore if you introduce the ability to reverse engineer (or what ever you wish to call it) for example golems to produce a T2 BPO it should in theory take 14 Golems reverse engineered = 1 Golem BPO, the same could be done for all t2 equipment and come to that also for t1. This is just an idea but I think it could be worth looking at particuarly as ccp seems to want to put all items into player control. Please discuss further. Short answer no Long answer Here's my assumption on how you've come to this "I want to make T2 items and make lots of profits and iskles" "but there's no or limited profit in T2" "if I had a T2 bpo I could make lots more money because I wouldn't have to go through the bore of invention and everyone knows T2 bpo's are super awesomes" What would actually happen is lots of people would make lots of T2 bpos, T2 pricing would crash further and you'd all be in exactly the same boat of "no profit in T2 production" in about 3 months time. Invention is already working phenominally well, just look at the price shift for T2 items, DCU2 used to be about 20-30mil now you can get them for about half a mil. The limited profit margin comes from a few things, Not checking profitability before starting down the road of invention. Not including datacores in your costings. Doing it "for fun" in short, the "no profit in T2 production" falls squarely on the sholders of the inventers out there. Just look at marauders and such if you need proof. terribad idea is terribad I am not a T2 BPO holder
Killerjock	Posted - 2010.12.16 17:57:00 - [65] Originally by: Ghost Creal This is just an idea but I think it could be worth looking at particuarly as ccp seems to want to put all items into player control. T2 market is already under player control. Quote: Please discuss further. No.
Kahdmazu	Posted - 2010.12.18 14:49:00 - [66] STOP T2 BPO I'm calling to remove all BPO T2 from EVE. It's unuseful to use invention to produce modules T2 BPC. There is too much difference from production by T2 BPO. The two methods are incompatible inside a free market. I ask to convert all T2 BPO in T2 BPC with 1000 run, and multiply by 10 the runs number of T2 BPC produced by invention.


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