Ccp you suck seriously you removed 50percent of my capacity and i should be happy for you allowing me to pay to playi know peeps who are goiing to quit playing becauuse of your action why. Cant you leave the good thing alone why do you always mess them up

Ccp you suck seriously you removed 50percent of my capacity and i should be happy for you allowing me to pay to playi know peeps who are goiing to quit playing becauuse of your action why. Cant you leave the good thing alone why do you always mess them up

Why don't you get yourself a Mack then? If cargo is all what you're upset about, then go for it. You won't notice the smaller yield if you use it for solo mining. You easily compensate for that by not needing an additional hauler.

I'll happily take the hulk of your hands so you can upgrade.

A bit late dude. Price of the Hulk is going down fast.

Ccp you suck seriously you removed 50percent of my capacity and i should be happy for you allowing me to pay to playi know peeps who are goiing to quit playing becauuse of your action why. Cant you leave the good thing alone why do you always mess them up

I'll happily take the hulk of your hands so you can upgrade.

are we talking numbers? cause i got one lying around...

Not only that but to get the old Cargo Hulks big capacity you lose the MLU's. The Mackinaw can fit up to 3 giving it about the same yield as the Hulk with more capacity then it could ever fit.

Ccp you suck seriously you removed 50percent of my capacity and i should be happy for you allowing me to pay to playi know peeps who are goiing to quit playing becauuse of your action why. Cant you leave the good thing alone why do you always mess them up

with 2 MLU II and T2 crystals in a hulk with perfect skills and no booster, it mines 1,547 m^3 per strip miner for a total of 4,641 m^3 per cycle

3 MLU II and T2 crystals in a mackinaw with perfect skills and no booster, makes it mine 2,008 m^3 per strip miner for a total of 4,016 m^3 per cycle

TL;DR
the hulk is still 15% better than the mack in yield even with the third MLU II

Not only that but to get the old Cargo Hulks big capacity you lose the MLU's. The Mackinaw can fit up to 3 giving it about the same yield as the Hulk with more capacity then it could ever fit.

Bolded the part you missed.

OP said:


And I said.

Never said a Mackinaw mines faster then a yield Hulk.

Ccp you suck seriously you removed 50percent of my capacity and i should be happy for you allowing me to pay to playi know peeps who are goiing to quit playing becauuse of your action why. Cant you leave the good thing alone why do you always mess them up

Bolded the part you missed.

yep though i was responding to the flawed notion that the Mackinaw has "about the same yield" as the Hulk; 15% is not "about the same"

by that logic why not get a retriever? its got "about the same yield" and "about the same ore bay"
or why ever get an implant? its "about the same as not having one"

Ccp you suck seriously you removed 50percent of my capacity and i should be happy for you allowing me to pay to playi know peeps who are goiing to quit playing becauuse of your action why. Cant you leave the good thing alone why do you always mess them up

So you train to exhumers, you take the long road ahead, you save your pennies to buy and fit a Hulk.

You have a dead tech II miner ship, you can dust off for a mining op (people talk here like there were ops everyday.. not for all corps..)

Mackinaw is good for high sec solo and unnoticeable yield difference in mining ops for corp.

Changes were for the best, but difference is too little for tech II, and Hulk got benched hard.

Looking 2 Trade my Hulk for a Mackinaw any day.
Oh wait there's a 60mil difference, well if there's still someone who wants to trade we can settle the difference.

After all that training and saving, I'm solo mining in a Retriever :(

Look at the arguments we're having, I think this is exactly what CCP wanted. Before if someone asked whats the best mining ship, everyone said "the hulk unless youre ice mining then its the mackinaw" now we have pages and pages of arguing about which is best, that my friends is the beauty of incomparables

For those of you who want to be lazy and dont think the 15% bonus is worth it, go mine in a mackinaw.

For those of you willing to put in the work to make the hulk pay off, enjoy your 15% yield bonus above all the lazy people.

Dear CCP,

How dare you buff the ships used in my EVE cubicle farm job. I'm gonna cry and quit.

And this coming hot on the heels of nerfing suicide ganks* in Crucible. How dare you try to help us overcome our inadequacies.

Sincerely,
Miners.

How are these threads still appearing?

I am thoroughly enjoying my Mackinaw+Orca. Demolished quite a few rocks last night, actually. Best PvR experience ever.

I hope you're aware that you would get a better yield with two mackinaws.

Mackinaw is now the best in ALL normal mining situations.

I mine in a retriever, and I feel that my ship was over-buffed. I see no reason to move to a covetor when my yield won't significantly increase.

CCP needs to correct the nerf on the Hulk. Its supposed to be the top of the Exhumers. It eliminated the cargo hold and gave it a crap ore hold - pre patch 18k cargo bay to post patch 8.5k ore hold. In addition it removed -2.5 shield resistance per level and gave nothing as a replacement.

CCP needs to fix what it broke and make hulk the top ship of the exhumer tier.

This was not a rebalancing, but an attempt to bottom out market prices for ice and high sec ores in order to FORCE players into low sec.

CCP needs to correct the nerf on the Hulk. Its supposed to be the top of the Exhumers. It eliminated the cargo hold and gave it a crap ore hold - pre patch 18k cargo bay to post patch 8.5k ore hold. In addition it removed -2.5 shield resistance per level and gave nothing as a replacement.

CCP needs to fix what it broke and make hulk the top ship of the exhumer tier.

This was not a rebalancing, but an attempt to bottom out market prices for ice and high sec ores in order to FORCE players into low sec.

*Is still mining happily in his Hulk*

Unlike you I have a life so I don't spend all my time on Eve.

The Hulk got nerfed its pretty much useless compared to pre-patch. They need to tweak it again at the very least expand the Ore hold to something a bit more useful.

As for being tired of posts about mining ships... well your in the wrong forum. Go read something else.

Unlike you I have a life so I don't spend all my time on Eve.

The Hulk got nerfed its pretty much useless compared to pre-patch. They need to tweak it again at the very least expand the Ore hold to something a bit more useful.

As for being tired of posts about mining ships... well your in the wrong forum. Go read something else.

The hulk has been buffed in every way excluding the cargohold. It now yields more and has a better tank. Only people like you who are using it incorrectly could see it as a nerf.

Only a toon that is barely able to fly a hulk, could have such a narrow minded view of its uses.

Leon

The goal here is to allow players to choose a barge that fits their specific play style rather than lead them on a journey from the worst barge to the best one.

The Covetor and Hulk cater to group mining operations due to their large mining capability, low EHP and storage, forcing them to rely on others to haul and resupply them with mining crystals.
The Retriever and Mackinaw are specifically designed for autonomy purposes, as their large ore bays allow their pilot to stay inside an asteroid belt for longer without having to dock.
The Procurer and Skiff are made for protection against suicide gank, or NPCs, by giving a large enough buffer to react to incoming attacks, while paying for that with a lower mining yield.

The goal here is to allow players to choose a barge that fits their specific play style rather than lead them on a journey from the worst barge to the best one.

The Covetor and Hulk cater to group mining operations due to their large mining capability, low EHP and storage, forcing them to rely on others to haul and resupply them with mining crystals.
The Retriever and Mackinaw are specifically designed for autonomy purposes, as their large ore bays allow their pilot to stay inside an asteroid belt for longer without having to dock.
The Procurer and Skiff are made for protection against suicide gank, or NPCs, by giving a large enough buffer to react to incoming attacks, while paying for that with a lower mining yield.

Ship Veldspar/hour Mercoxit/hour Ice/hour
Hulk 2,035,290 3,217 85
Covetor 1,846,763 2,916 80
Mackinaw 1,761,350 2,781 79
Retriever 1,677,477 2,650 75
Skiff 1,615,918 2,557 72
Procurer 1,538,971 2,432 68

Wow how special... most miners run their own fleet. What would be the point otherwise.

As for CCP they can have their opinion, but the forums are for players to voice theirs.

The Hulk got nerfed - need to expanded the ore hold.

Cheers,
Leon

Mighty high opinion of yourself. It's CCP's game not yours. The new Hulk gives you more base tank yield and space for ore. Yet you complain because it's not as much space as a cargo expanded hulk. If you're running it in a fleet with the proper boosters it'll out yield anything else by a good amount.

No actually its our game. They write the code, we pay the money and play it. If either end of the equation fails then there is no game. Not at least in the manner it exist now.


The hulk got nerfed. Needs to have the ore hold expanded.

Cheers,
Leon

The hulk got nerfed. Needs to have the ore hold expanded.

Cheers,
Leon

Unlike you I have a life so I don't spend all my time on Eve.

The Hulk got nerfed its pretty much useless compared to pre-patch. They need to tweak it again at the very least expand the Ore hold to something a bit more useful.

The hulk got nerfed. Needs to have the ore hold expanded.

Wow how special... most miners run their own fleet. What would be the point otherwise.

As for CCP they can have their opinion, but the forums are for players to voice theirs.

The Hulk got nerfed - need to expanded the ore hold.

Cheers,
Leon

The hulk has been buffed in every way excluding the cargohold. It now yields more and has a better tank. Only people like you who are using it incorrectly could see it as a nerf.

You realize that the new mack has the same yield as the old max-crargo shtifit hulks you idiots used to fly; right?

wrong.

the hulk got buffed in every way INCLUDING cargo.

pre-patch, 8k cargo. post patch, 8.5k ore bay AND 350 cargo. do the maths.

No, it didn't. The hulk's absolute maximum cargo was cut by 45-50%, dependant on rigs, it's shield regeneration time was increased by roughly 60% (passive shield tank nerf), and its available cargo for crystals was significantly reduced as well. The overall net effect was a buff for the hulk, yes, but saying it was "buffed in every way" is incorrect. Hell, for that matter the effectiveness of damage controls on the hulk was nerfed because CCP reprioritized shield HP over hull HP for some strange reason.

wrong.

the hulk got buffed in every way INCLUDING cargo.

pre-patch, 8k cargo. post patch, 8.5k ore bay AND 350 cargo. do the maths.

I assumed hehad full cargo hold expander rigs/mods..

Ccp you suck seriously you removed 50percent of my capacity and i should be happy for you allowing me to pay to playi know peeps who are goiing to quit playing becauuse of your action why. Cant you leave the good thing alone why do you always mess them up

I just noticed to day the te expanded Cargo was not working on my Hulk anymore.

by that logic why not get a retriever? its got "about the same yield" and "about the same ore bay"
or why ever get an implant? its "about the same as not having one"

**** fitting your hulk doesn't mean the hulk got nerfed.

also, the mackinaw has more ehp, yield and cargo than the shitfit hulk. again, how is there a nerf here?

Your response only applies to maximum cargo fittings, it does not apply to the shield recharge nerf, the lower base cargo capacity for mining crystals, or the reduced effectiveness of damage controls due to the HP reprioritization. Even if you want to discount ship fittings that's two clear nerfs, and while it still needs one to count fittings it's also one meta-nerf. For that matter the shield resistance bonus was lowered which in turn lowers the effectiveness of flat HP boosting modules like shield extenders which is another meta-nerf.

So with two actual nerfs and two meta-nerfs how was the hulk "buffed in every way INCLUDING cargo" again?

]Wait someone actually relied on the hulks natural shield recharge for a tank? Really?

I would imagine that just about every high-sec miner who didn't fit a shield booster and mined below .9 (or .8, I can never remember where rats start spawning) security and couldn't be arsed to deploy drones did. That said the fact is that people who tanked their hulks actually did rely on the ship's passive regeneration to offset at least some of the damage, especially in DPS-oriented builds like the catalyst's, from suicide gankers. It takes a bit longer for someone to chew through your 5k shields if your shield tank can regenerate enough to mitigate 15% of their damage than it does if your regeneration only mitigates 10%, possibly long enough for CONCORD to put down the donuts and step on the antimatter. /shrugs.

Deride the idea all you want, but folks did rely on it to one degree or another and in one way or another.

I would imagine that just about every high-sec miner who didn't fit a shield booster and mined below .9 (or .8, I can never remember where rats start spawning) security and couldn't be arsed to deploy drones did. That said the fact is that people who tanked their hulks actually did rely on the ship's passive regeneration to offset at least some of the damage, especially in DPS-oriented builds like the catalyst's, from suicide gankers. It takes a bit longer for someone to chew through your 5k shields if your shield tank can regenerate enough to mitigate 15% of their damage than it does if your regeneration only mitigates 10%, possibly long enough for CONCORD to put down the donuts and step on the antimatter. /shrugs.

Deride the idea all you want, but folks did rely on it to one degree or another and in one way or another.

I've never seen a rat spawn in .9, and I rarely get one in .8. In .5 systems, I tend to get a spawn of two or three rats every half-hour or so. I throw up some Hobs in .6 and .7 systems and have some moderate shield tank, and I've never had rats take my shield below 50% before the drones popped them.

So only fail people relied on it. It's like the fail people who fitted cargohold expanders in their lows and are now complaining about the loss space. So is a nerf really a nerf if it effects something that doesn't matter?

EDIT : I actually like the increase in shield tank on the hulk. Yes it makes a DC unit a bit less effective but it also means my orca pilot's siege warfare has a bigger effect then before (harmonizer etc).

That build went from 36,381 "omni" EHP to 38,488, a 5.8% increase, and the shield regeneration dropped from 138 DPS to 93 DPS, 32.6% drop. Contrast that to the 18.whatever% increase in raw EHP hulks got and it's annoying. It's still an EHP buff, it's still good, it's just annoying how you go from 18% naked to 6% tanked.

So now you're complaining that the Hulk (not meant to be a tanky ship anymore) didn't get its tank buffed enough?

I haven't actually complained about anything. All I did was point out that the statements that the hulk "got buffed in every way" were factually incorrect.

I haven't actually complained about anything. All I did was point out that the statements that the hulk "got buffed in every way" were factually incorrect.

Unfortunately that "bigger effect" isn't all that much bigger. It's something like 104 EHP, 7.5%, when you compare buffer fits with orcas packing T2 harmonizing links using max skills and no siege mindlink.

TBH, it's annoying how quickly the hulk's EHP buff drops, percentage-wise, when you compare tanked builds from pre-1.2 and now.

What's all this then?

What's all this then?

How dare you use reality and facts against Shreza. I mean seriously this person thinks that the hulk lost 100-300hp shield regen after the buff or something. Which will somehow stop a gang of gankers from ganking a hulk where as a buffer fit which has more HP will somehow be doomed..

Stating facts.



The hulk lost shield regeneration due to the increased recharge time, that's a fact. I also don't recall saying or even implying that it was enough to "stop a gang of gankers." How you would come to that conclusion when I even pointed out that the EHP increase the hulk got when buffer tanked was in the 5-6% range is beyond me.

_____

Put words in my mouth all you want, ascribe motivations to my posts that don't exist all you care to, it doesn't change the fact that not every change made to the hulk was a buff. The overall effect was a buff, but not every change was a buff. Feel free to believe that the hulk was "buffed in every way" if you want to though.

I have a noticeable increase in yield

Oh and CCP has something to say to you.

http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=73098






Pay attention to yields stated too



Have a good day.

Here is a player that is stuborn to the last and refuses to adapt. Well then enjoy your Hulk. You could be having so much more fun in a Mack with a huge ore bay and a tank easily double what you had in your Hulk. And the Mack will mine just about as fast as your old Hulk did. But hey refuse to adapt and complain about the change. When you rage quit I will take your stuff.

This exactly.

I have mined in a retriever (when I do mine) since my first or second month in EVE. I'm just past 2 years now and still wasn't ready to train barges 5 before the changes were announced. My ship got a HUGE buff. I don't dispute that it needed a buff, but it's too much. It's just so darn easy to mine in this contraption that I really shouldn't have that insane output. I'd say give em these role bonuses and the problem will be fixed:

retriever/mackinaw: +25%

procurer/skiff: +100%

This would leave the small barges at a net mining yield of 200%/210% and the mediums at 250%/262.5%. The larges would have a base of 300% and a max of 345%/396.75%. This means at these amounts, even the procurer which is small and fast, has a big fat capacitor, has tons of HP and a pretty nice-sized ore bay, at mining barge skill level 1 would still mine more than half as fast as a max-skilled hulk.

This automatically make the Hulk the default be all end all solution for mining

You can say that all you want but history shows clearly that almost all miners disagree with you. Even now mackinaw prices are HIGHER than hulk prices, despite their mineral cost being substantially lower.

You're wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong. Stop trying to defend your position with feelings and opinions, because the facts blatantly disagree with you.

The only reason why the mack price skyrocketed so high is because it is now usefull and people are buying them in drove. Once every serious solo miner have them and the demand goes back down, the price wil adjust.

You can say that all you want but history shows clearly that almost all miners disagree with you. Even now mackinaw prices are HIGHER than hulk prices, despite their mineral cost being substantially lower.

You're wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong. Stop trying to defend your position with feelings and opinions, because the facts blatantly disagree with you.

I am missing t-2 resitances on exhumers.
Why did ccp remove them, it is a t-2 ship afterall ??!

Here I remember the days when the best mining ship out there was an Apocalypse with T2 mining lasers........I agree with the changes to the barges, and I think it brings a little more spice to them

They never had them. Prepatch, the Hulk's 7.5%/barge level resistance bonus was included in its base stats (because the bonus was tied to the Mining Barge skill which was assumed to be at 5)

Now, the 5%/barge level resistance bonus is not included in the base stats, but is instead calculated once someone with barge 5 is actually flying the thing.

Oh, and a tanked Hulk has about 3k more EHP than it did before the patch, but whine away.

holy crap, they did change it to 5%! That's messed up! As if hulks weren't squishy already!

People used to destroy hulks with 10m isk catalysts. They really need a EHP buff!

They also gave the Hulk a raw HP buff. The result is that the Hulk tanks more now than it did before, by about 3k EHP.

This is a conceptual failure since the goal of the rebalance was to make the answer to: "what should I use to be able to tank suicide ganks;" "use a Skiff." Right now, that's most certainly not the answer.

Are you sure it's EHP buff? Passive recharge is locked to 5 now for all mining barges and exhumers, no matter how much you have shield HP.

I would like to see that 20k+ EHP dual MLU fit for Hulk!

Edit: Closest I can get with my bad Pyfa skills is 18,4k and that's against RF EMP.

22.7k vs Omni. 23k vs Void. 20.9k vs EMP. 27.8k vs Quake. 21.8k vs PP.

No Implants.

[Hulk, Hisec Mininh]

Mining Laser Upgrade II
Mining Laser Upgrade II

Small F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I
Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II

Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I
Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I

with 2 MLU II and T2 crystals in a hulk with perfect skills and no booster, it mines 1,547 m^3 per strip miner for a total of 4,641 m^3 per cycle

3 MLU II and T2 crystals in a mackinaw with perfect skills and no booster, makes it mine 2,008 m^3 per strip miner for a total of 4,016 m^3 per cycle

TL;DR
the hulk is still 15% better than the mack in yield even with the third MLU II

Ok, since you claimed it can tank 40k against Void like the old Hulk...

How about a bonus for a the Hulk and Covetor for the one thing mining ships need in a fleet op with Orca support now - increased range for the rock scanner ;)
Solo miners don't need it (especially if the off-site boost gets removed), but for those >25km range stripminers, it's damn annoying to have a scanner range of just 22,5km.

Orca:
500% bonus to Survey Scanner range

FC's options with the fleet interface:
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Fleet_options#Broadcast_system


Or just move in closer, and stop whining about getting your ships buffed.

True, but the point many many miners are missing, your self included it seems, is that many miners, like the OP it seems, did not fit their hulks for max yield. They fit for max cargo. no MLU's, they used cargo expander II's.

The new mack with 3 MLU II's out mines the old max cargo HULK. And has significantly more room for ORE than the old max cargo HULK had.

Personally I still use HULK's as I run 3 with ORCA support, But for Solo miners who used to fit their HULKS for max cargo, the new Mack is much better.

In fact without a second account for hauling the HULK sucks bad. Even with the second account you are better off running two Macks. two macks gives you way more yield than a single hulk with a mining alt, even after factoring in time to run to station to dump ORE.

I seriously doubt you've ever mined efficiently since that includes stopping a cycle at the right moment, so you waste at most a few seconds, also usually one ship or even just one stripminer on a single rock. Orca scans and broadcasts are horrible for that.
But nah, again a miner who posts a suggestion for a tiny useful boost, it's not about yield or tank, but let's call it whining anyways

What does your proposal improve? It improves the amount of ore you return to the station from the belt in a given amount of time. You know what we call that? Yield.

Again, you can also move closer. And also again, stop whining about your newly buffed ships.

i just hopped in a barge a few days before the rebalance. so with no real previous experience with them and i love them. i think ccp was successful in the rebalance. its not first second third best, they each have role to play. with a corpmate inhulk me in retriever we mine belts hard with just 2 people. just you, go with retriever. but to me mining drones seem completely useless now with yields so much better on procurer and retriever