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Major Sackrash	Posted - 2010.12.21 14:55:00 - [1] There's no denying it, in the current pvp climate the buffer drake is seriously overpowered, no wonder everyone and there gran is using them, they give the same performance as a field command ship for a fraction of the price. How is it that all the BC's in it's class put out around 700dps but on top of that the drake also get's an extra 50k ehp? Top skills and a few implants and the drake easily pushes out 120k ehp with 700 dps, tell me how that's balanced.
Tom Fulleride	Posted - 2010.12.21 14:57:00 - [2] Seems like only yesterday people were heckling it for not being able to do anything other than PVE. "Don't fly a drake unless you want to watch all your friends die while you contribute nothing to the team". Nothing has really changed since then except lag. Fix lag, nerf drake.
Major Sackrash	Posted - 2010.12.21 15:03:00 - [3] Originally by: Tom Fulleride "Don't fly a drake unless you want to watch all your friends die while you contribute nothing to the team" In a small BC gang any ship that pushes out 700dps while tanking twice as much as the surrounding ships is more than contributing IMHO.
Jaina Sunspot Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate	Posted - 2010.12.21 15:06:00 - [4] Originally by: Major Sackrash In a small BC gang any ship that pushes out 700dps while tanking twice as much as the surrounding ships is more than contributing IMHO. Fit and Implants that make this thing?
Major Sackrash	Posted - 2010.12.21 15:08:00 - [5] Originally by: Jaina Sunspot Originally by: Major Sackrash In a small BC gang any ship that pushes out 700dps while tanking twice as much as the surrounding ships is more than contributing IMHO. Fit and Implants that make this thing? Standard HAM fit with MWD and buffer tank. Simples.
Brian Ballsack	Posted - 2010.12.21 15:09:00 - [6] Drake is fine, tank is good but damage is poor, it seems op at low skill levels but my max skilled cane has been eating them one on one for some while now.
Major Sackrash	Posted - 2010.12.21 15:17:00 - [7] Originally by: Brian Ballsack Drake is fine, tank is good but damage is poor, it seems op at low skill levels but my max skilled cane has been eating them one on one for some while now. Maybe you have just been fighting noobs.
Wacktopia Dark Side Of The Womb	Posted - 2010.12.21 15:22:00 - [8] Edited by: Wacktopia on 21/12/2010 15:25:36 Originally by: Major Sackrash There's no denying it, in the current pvp climate the buffer drake is seriously overpowered Wrong. The drake as a ship is about right. It's best or one-of-the-best in class but it is not 'overpowered'. Originally by: Major Sackrash no wonder everyone and there gran is using them The reason 'everyone and their gran are using them' is: 1) Drakes (in fact Caldari in general) are masters at range 2) Range blobs combined with logistics is a potent weapon (esp in 0.0) 3) Shield logistics > Armor logistics because... --- a) The remote shield boost comes at the start of the cycle ('instant') compared to armor at the end. --- b) The remote shield boost cycle time is much faster so logi can switch targets quickly. 4) The Drake + Logi setup is now a popular blob tactic in 0.0 The setup described above has been commented on by CCP as "under review" (cba to find link) since it appears to be stronger than one might expect for the given setup. This does not mean that Drake + Skimmy = InstaWin nor does it mean that the Drake is gonna get nerfed . It simply means that CCP might make some incremental changes to logistics, for example: 1) Change remote armor boost to come at the start of the cycle 2) Change the remote armor cycle time to be faster and rep less per cycle 3) Change remote shield modules to match armor instead 4) Introduce better anti-missile mechanics
Dr Fighter	Posted - 2010.12.21 15:23:00 - [9] luckily however, the drake is so bloody boring to fly not as many who could do. so its ballenced.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.12.21 15:27:00 - [10] Funnily enough, the Myrm has always had a better tank than the Drakeà ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
RiskyFrisky Under the Table Inc.	Posted - 2010.12.21 15:29:00 - [11] Edited by: RiskyFrisky on 21/12/2010 15:32:01 You sir, are wrong. My MWD Drake only gets 94 EHP according to EFT which is, well wrong. It's slightly lower than that at max, actually around 90k. It gets about 613 DPS with drones(550? Without). My Armor Cane has a buffer of 69k according to EFt, probably around 65k for real. It gets almost 770(680 without?) DPS no OH with drones. Quite a big DPS difference and EHP difference there. - My Afterburner drake gets about 620 DPS and only gets an 80k tank. ^^ The only drake I like to use. So while you sit there and call the Drake OP when a Hurricane with 15k less EHP gets a significant amount more DPS, I'm going to have to call you nuts sir. If you nerf the Drakes tank, it dies. Nerf its DPS, no point in using it for anything anymore if that happens. BTW, Shield cane can easily kill a drake. -
Major Sackrash	Posted - 2010.12.21 15:46:00 - [12] Originally by: RiskyFrisky Edited by: RiskyFrisky on 21/12/2010 15:32:01 You sir, are wrong. My MWD Drake only gets 94 EHP according to EFT which is, well wrong. It's slightly lower than that at max, actually around 90k. It gets about 613 DPS with drones(550? Without). My Armor Cane has a buffer of 69k according to EFt, probably around 65k for real. It gets almost 770(680 without?) DPS no OH with drones. Quite a big DPS difference and EHP difference there. - My Afterburner drake gets about 620 DPS and only gets an 80k tank. ^^ The only drake I like to use. So while you sit there and call the Drake OP when a Hurricane with 15k less EHP gets a significant amount more DPS, I'm going to have to call you nuts sir. If you nerf the Drakes tank, it dies. Nerf its DPS, no point in using it for anything anymore if that happens. BTW, Shield cane can easily kill a drake. NO SIR I DO NOT CONCUR. The drake must be nerfed. It cannot be the numero uno at pve, pvp & blob/.0 warefare. There must be order in eve, I demand order!!
Jaina Sunspot Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate	Posted - 2010.12.21 15:50:00 - [13] Originally by: Major Sackrash NO SIR I DO NOT CONCUR. The drake must be nerfed. It cannot be the numero uno at pve, pvp & blob/.0 warefare. There must be order in eve, I demand order!! Whats this, a non Minmatar or Amarr ship that is good... Nerf!
Korg Leaf Time Bandits.	Posted - 2010.12.21 16:00:00 - [14] Originally by: Major Sackrash There's no denying it, in the current pvp climate the buffer drake is seriously overpowered, no wonder everyone and there gran is using them, they give the same performance as a field command ship for a fraction of the price. How is it that all the BC's in it's class put out around 700dps but on top of that the drake also get's an extra 50k ehp? Top skills and a few implants and the drake easily pushes out 120k ehp with 700 dps, tell me how that's balanced. Not to sound sceptical or anything but could I see this 120k ehp drake that pushes out 700dps, as my alt would be quite happy. Also with the right implants you can push out 850dps and 100k ehp on the cane or harbinger
Ava Starfire Minmatar Nordanverdr Modr	Posted - 2010.12.21 16:14:00 - [15] 7/10
rodensteiner Amarr Shioshi Capital Storm	Posted - 2010.12.21 16:21:00 - [16] Originally by: Ava Starfire 7/10 That high? damn... _____________________________________________ I'm horrible at PVP
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2010.12.21 16:50:00 - [17] I wonder why no one complains about the Vagabond owning the Cerberus? Or the armor tanked BSs outperforming Raven in PVP? Or that armor tank super caps are so much better then shield? or thar shield RR mods suck in compariosn to armor RR? Or that the angle ships are vastly outperforming the sansah ones? but no, they gotta complain about the drake, the ship thats very well balanced wrt tank and dps. The drake performs well in close range HAM setup, but for gank dps my harb and cane do it way better. My cane got vastly more mobility, bu harb ogt better damage projection. Draks main thing is its tank, and tbh haivng a big tnak is no redeeming quality outside very small (or huge blobs). Besides the drake only has good kinetic dps, the other damage typs not so much. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
NoNah	Posted - 2010.12.21 16:56:00 - [18] Originally by: Sidus Isaacs I wonder why no one complains about the Vagabond owning the Cerberus? Because it doesn't. They just have different roles. Quote: Or the armor tanked BSs outperforming Raven in PVP? Because they don't. I'll happily pit my gang of 10 ravens versus your gang of 10 whatever. Quote: Or that armor tank super caps are so much better then shield? They're not, really, the big difference is the slaveset which isn't really regarding neither of the tanks themselves. Quote: or thar shield RR mods suck in compariosn to armor RR? They don't. Compare the usefulness of the scimitar to oneiros. Capital transfers on naglfar/thanatos. It's a fitting issue, and as such requires both the ship and module components to be crap. On their own Shield RR > Armor RR. Quote: Or that the angle ships are vastly outperforming the sansah ones? Because they generally don't. They appeal to different roles. Much like cane vs harbinger. Parrots, commence! Postcount: 705577
Seriously Bored Minmatar	Posted - 2010.12.21 17:04:00 - [19] Edited by: Seriously Bored on 21/12/2010 17:04:36 Originally by: Sidus Isaacs My cane got vastly more mobility, Not that I want to add to picking your post apart (because I agree there are more significant balance issues in the game than dealing with the Drake)... But when you look at fitted ships, the Drake is barely behind the Hurricane in agility. It's also the second fasted BC, though the Cane ends up with a 20% lead. Compared to most of its peers, the Drake is actually a fast and agile ship. That aside, the the Drake whine threads sound exactly like all the old Amarr whines from more than a year ago (which I'll admit I contributed to). "It has too much EHP! It does too much damage at range!" Things changed and the game moved on, and a nerf never happened. The same will eventually happen with the Drake. ùùùùù Originally by: CCP Big Dumb Object When I nerf something, it takes 2-3 months for your dreams to be crushed.
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2010.12.21 17:47:00 - [20] Originally by: NoNah Originally by: Sidus Isaacs I wonder why no one complains about the Vagabond owning the Cerberus? Because it doesn't. They just have different roles. Quote: Or the armor tanked BSs outperforming Raven in PVP? Because they don't. I'll happily pit my gang of 10 ravens versus your gang of 10 whatever. Quote: Or that armor tank super caps are so much better then shield? They're not, really, the big difference is the slaveset which isn't really regarding neither of the tanks themselves. Quote: or thar shield RR mods suck in compariosn to armor RR? They don't. Compare the usefulness of the scimitar to oneiros. Capital transfers on naglfar/thanatos. It's a fitting issue, and as such requires both the ship and module components to be crap. On their own Shield RR > Armor RR. Quote: Or that the angle ships are vastly outperforming the sansah ones? Because they generally don't. They appeal to different roles. Much like cane vs harbinger. It is indeed a fitting issue. And thats exactly what makes it sucky... (I thought that was obvious). I am talking about RR mods, not RR ships. I want to see a Shield RR BS gang that don't suck, but I don't. Obvious balancing point would be to make armor RR PG rise accordningly, givng us hopefully less RR and more happy EVE. Also, I can use the same argument that the Drake and Cane has different roles. But that does not mean one role is not used more then the other. Point was that people don't think things through. Drake is good at what it does, so is Cane. As for your Ravens... well, I'd like to see that. While a great gank ship (and I have used it a lot) it sucks without support. An armored BS needs far less support, and that is my beef with them. And yes, sansha ships sucks comapred to angel. The succubus? Trash. The Pahntasm? ok roaming ship for its price. The NM is still good. Dramiel... well it speaks ofr itself. Cynabal, excelent roamer, beat phantasm in many ways. Mach? Beats NM imo, but only because you can nano it. Armor Mach no so much. I can give it a tie all over tho. So it not that much different in roles, on one side you got good ships, on the other you don't. Aslo, Caldari ships are mainly fleet ships, so why are people supprised drake fleets do well? oh, and salve sets, yeah, ofcourse thats what helps it, but not only that, its deeper then so. Originally by: Seriously Bored Edited by: Seriously Bored on 21/12/2010 17:04:36 Originally by: Sidus Isaacs My cane got vastly more mobility, Not that I want to add to picking your post apart (because I agree there are more significant balance issues in the game than dealing with the Drake)... But when you look at fitted ships, the Drake is barely behind the Hurricane in agility. It's also the second fasted BC, though the Cane ends up with a 20% lead. Compared to most of its peers, the Drake is actually a fast and agile ship. That aside, the the Drake whine threads sound exactly like all the old Amarr whines from more than a year ago (which I'll admit I contributed to). "It has too much EHP! It does too much damage at range!" Things changed and the game moved on, and a nerf never happened. The same will eventually happen with the Drake. Hint: Nanofiber II Also my Cane got 300m/s more tehn my drake non overloaded, non nanofiber II. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
rodensteiner Amarr Shioshi Capital Storm	Posted - 2010.12.21 18:00:00 - [21] Originally by: Sidus Isaacs The succubus? Trash. Whoaaaa whoa whoa whoa hang on _____________________________________________ I'm horrible at PVP
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2010.12.21 18:03:00 - [22] Originally by: Wacktopia Edited by: Wacktopia on 21/12/2010 15:25:36 Originally by: Major Sackrash There's no denying it, in the current pvp climate the buffer drake is seriously overpowered Wrong. The drake as a ship is about right. It's best or one-of-the-best in class but it is not 'overpowered'. Originally by: Major Sackrash no wonder everyone and there gran is using them The reason 'everyone and their gran are using them' is: 1) Drakes (in fact Caldari in general) are masters at range 2) Range blobs combined with logistics is a potent weapon (esp in 0.0) 3) Shield logistics > Armor logistics because... --- a) The remote shield boost comes at the start of the cycle ('instant') compared to armor at the end. --- b) The remote shield boost cycle time is much faster so logi can switch targets quickly. 4) The Drake + Logi setup is now a popular blob tactic in 0.0 The setup described above has been commented on by CCP as "under review" (cba to find link) since it appears to be stronger than one might expect for the given setup. This does not mean that Drake + Skimmy = InstaWin nor does it mean that the Drake is gonna get nerfed . It simply means that CCP might make some incremental changes to logistics, for example: 1) Change remote armor boost to come at the start of the cycle 2) Change the remote armor cycle time to be faster and rep less per cycle 3) Change remote shield modules to match armor instead 4) Introduce better anti-missile mechanics Minus that cycle time of armor and shield logistics is exactly equal, armor logistics has waaaaayyyyyyy lower fitting requirements (seriously fix shield transporter cpu cost) and armor logistics is more cap efficient. But dont let the facts stop you. Btw @ vaga and cerb having different roles, doesnt stop people from complaining about the drake. Yes fighting at max range in situations where delayed damage does not matter drakes are better. Short range however the others have more dps, they have instant dps, etc.
Diomidis Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2010.12.21 18:13:00 - [23] You ppl are sooooo fast into conclusions and forum posting... Drake -> 100k EHP -> HAMS -> 700 dps (lol) -> RR -> WOW nerfwagon and crap statements, followed by moar trolling and crap arguments... First of all get a clue...Yes, many competent and not alliances have been using drake blobs for years now, and almost all have been using it the last months in large scale gangs and engagements, with RR support... Why? Because of Shield + good resists combo ? Yes... Because it fits HAMs and does 600-700 dps (ok, take 700 with a gain of salt :P ) @ 15-18km ? HELL NO... Who in his right mind would fit HAMs in large scale engagements? Even in 10+ man gangs, everybody in his right mind does the HML drake, and boosts 450-500dps out to his locking range...pwning most fleet BSs in DPS @ range, matching average EHP and RR capabilities, all in a BC package of mobility and kinda easy fitting. Most importantly, not only does the Drake hits with a lot DPS, but offcourse HMLs nearly eliminate tracking issues, and even Furys hit small targets pretty good... What if you've lost to a HAM drake pirate 1vs1? You could probably lose vs. a capable ferox 1vs1...so? Do not draw conclusions and start whining for irrelevant to balance issues... Join the Biggest Greek Corp! www.Mythos-eve.com - Join Mythos Channel in game!
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.12.21 18:14:00 - [24] Originally by: Major Sackrash they give the same performance as a field command ship for a fraction of the price. This is because command ships overall suck, but the nighthawk specifically needs some grid. -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died -
daisy dook	Posted - 2010.12.21 19:22:00 - [25] Remove the lag and don't armour HAC gangs give the drake blob a good fisting ?
NoNah	Posted - 2010.12.21 19:25:00 - [26] Originally by: daisy dook Remove the lag and don't armour HAC gangs give the drake blob a good fisting ? Other way around. Parrots, commence! Postcount: 880639
Baneken Gallente School of the Unseen	Posted - 2010.12.21 19:29:00 - [27] Only thing op about drakes is the BS comparable range projection and a tank that doesn't bog you down like a glued brick. http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Wacktopia Dark Side Of The Womb	Posted - 2010.12.21 19:52:00 - [28] Originally by: Furb Killer Minus that cycle time of armor and shield logistics is exactly equal, armor logistics has waaaaayyyyyyy lower fitting requirements (seriously fix shield transporter cpu cost) and armor logistics is more cap efficient. But dont let the facts stop you. Ok I mixed up local and remote, my mistake. But the point I was making, which is correct, is that the Drake itself is not the core issue here.
Ephemeron Solitairian Society	Posted - 2010.12.21 20:00:00 - [29] It's worth reminding people that the main thing that pushes Drake over the edge is the medium shield extender rig. Since shield rigs are super cheap: 3 mil, work by percentage value: 15% and no stacking penalty, they offer the greatest benefit to Drake because of Drake's shield resist bonus, natural high shield hp, and ability to easily fit 2x large shield extenders. No other BC, or cruiser, or even a HAC benefits more from this rig than Drake. In my opinion, it would be enough to raise cost of medium shield extender rigs to 10-15 mil in order to balance things.
Seriously Bored Minmatar	Posted - 2010.12.21 20:03:00 - [30] Edited by: Seriously Bored on 21/12/2010 20:05:25 Originally by: Sidus Isaacs Hint: Nanofiber II Also my Cane got 300m/s more tehn my drake non overloaded, non nanofiber II. I'll take Tracking Enhancers instead, thanks. But you are correct...the Cane would be ~26% faster, not 20% like I stated. The agility is still so close that the difference is trivial. ED: More accurate number. ùùùùù Originally by: CCP Big Dumb Object When I nerf something, it takes 2-3 months for your dreams to be crushed.
Proxyyyy Caldari draketrain	Posted - 2010.12.21 20:13:00 - [31] I also do believe that the drake is "overpowered", but did'nt find a need to cry about (because i fly it alot). I also believe the mrymidon is "overpowered", but its a ship that excels in large fleet combat (which is why many dont care about it). Just skill the drake and sftu... Alot of pilots believe the Hurricane is "overpowered" for some reason. Thats something i just dont understand. -Discard females. Smoke trees. Win battles, Acquire ISK
Derekian The Scope	Posted - 2010.12.21 20:18:00 - [32] Quote: In my opinion, it would be enough to raise cost of medium shield extender rigs to 10-15 mil in order to balance things. no one is stopping you from selling the rigs at 10-15m >_>'' to me, drake is underpowered. i think it should get 3% more cpu for hm fits, and 3% more grid for ham fits. I also think it needs a kinetic-and-thermal 5% per level bonus instead of kinetic only, which makes it too one dimensioned. It also needs a 5% per level bonus to tracking disruptors, target painters, and Also, a boost in speed and a reduction in sig rad to balance with armor tankers will be good too. maybe +200 m/s natural and -150 sig rad (which makes the ship 250 sig rad fully fitted.
Asuka Smith Gallente Noir.	Posted - 2010.12.21 20:27:00 - [33] The only BC that really stinks is the Myrmidon.
daisy dook	Posted - 2010.12.21 20:38:00 - [34] Originally by: NoNah Originally by: daisy dook Remove the lag and don't armour HAC gangs give the drake blob a good fisting ? Other way around. How so?
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.12.21 22:05:00 - [35] Originally by: Asuka Smith The only BC that really stinks is the Myrmidon. àand yet, it can quite handily beat the Drake in both gank and tank. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Diomidis Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2010.12.21 22:16:00 - [36] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Asuka Smith The only BC that really stinks is the Myrmidon. àand yet, it can quite handily beat the Drake in both gank and tank. Yeah...cause whenever we like the blobs, ships and fits oriented towards a smaller gang/solo situation, suck...no range, local tank etc...all the failures. But when we are out-blobbed, ships like the Drake with range and good RR receptivity are overpowered...right...as if a blob of ANYTHING better organized than yours or fitted to counter yours would not be MORE powerful... Ships are overpowered when act on their own...say a super tanky/ganky ship entering a system and pwning an enemy camp each and everytime, or being nearly immune to killing with the proper rig/fit/implant/speed bonuses, while still having lots of tank/gank etc. Whining for nerfs because the X blob has a very strong combination of versatile ships (Drakes for example), good RR Logi tactics and co-ordination in conjunction with tried tactics, fleet bonuses and good FCs is like trying to undo what CCP seems to be trying to achieve for years... Join the Biggest Greek Corp! www.Mythos-eve.com - Join Mythos Channel in game!
Ephemeron Solitairian Society	Posted - 2010.12.21 22:23:00 - [37] Quote: Ships are overpowered when act on their own...say a super tanky/ganky ship entering a system and pwning an enemy camp each and everytime, or being nearly immune to killing with the proper rig/fit/implant/speed bonuses, while still having lots of tank/gank etc. By that definition, overpowered ships never existed in EVE. Because whenever a single ship commits to a fight, no matter how powerful it is, there is always a 2-3 ship combo that can defeat it - if they are setup properly to handle specific case. And nowadays, hot drops make it so overpowered ships cannot exist. Either accept that or change the definition.
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2010.12.21 22:27:00 - [38] Originally by: Tippia Funnily enough, the Myrm has always had a better tank than the Drakeà in a few rather worthless situations yes it does, practically I'd say the drake has the better tank.
Sidicarus The Free Haven Group	Posted - 2010.12.21 22:30:00 - [39] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Asuka Smith The only BC that really stinks is the Myrmidon. àand yet, it can quite handily beat the Drake in both gank and tank. This^^ I fly a near perfect, prototypical Disrupt/Web/MWD HAM drake, perfect shield skills and near perfect missile skills and I was beat 1v1 by a corpie flying a myrm. So I guess the only logical conclusion here is..... "HE BEAT ME!! CCP needz to nurfs his shipz!!!!" Seriously, The Drake is just 1 of 2 decent PvP combat ships (I think its the only one, but I'll you insert whatever you want as #2) the Caldari have. Our caps are useless, the Raven is like Woody Allen with a sledgehammer, our HAC's are a joke, and our frigs (even the T2's) cant handle a T2 fit and I guess the jury is still out on the rocket changes... (no idea) But fine, whatever. Replace our shields with marshmallows and pull HAM's off the market and replace them with kitten launchers. I have been needing an excuse to crosstrain.
Sidicarus The Free Haven Group	Posted - 2010.12.21 22:38:00 - [40] And before all you hooting ****holes start in with ECM.... Yeah, ECM is cool. Its effective when used in a certain number of situations, thats great. But it takes a rare breed of person to want to repeatedly "die first" without the possibility of getting any kills. And ECM doesnt have anything to do with the Drake.
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2010.12.21 22:44:00 - [41] Originally by: Asuka Smith The only BC that really stinks is the Myrmidon. Ferox wants a word with you. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Asuka Smith Gallente Noir.	Posted - 2010.12.21 23:22:00 - [42] I don't mean to de-rail this thread but I just want to point out that the Myrmidon fanboys saying "B-b-but 1v1" are really out of touch. Do you get non-consenual 1v1 often? Yeah a Myrmidon is going to beat any of the other BC in a 1v1 because 1v1 is the single situation in EVE where active beats buffer in PVP. If it is 2v2 the drake just surpassed your Myrmidon in terms of effective tank. If there is more than 10km of travel for your Myrmidon between targets then the Drake just surpassed you in DPS. 1v1 Myrm > Drake ; 2v2+ Drake > Myrm assuming pure gang compositions. Which leads back to the main point, a Myrmidon provides nothing to a gang. Yeah, it brings some DPS, but that DPS is all range 0. Do you plan to tackle very many targets in your battlecruiser that don't want to be tackled? Assuming a 10v10 situation which I would say is smallest realistic type of gang fight the ranges alone are going to render your myrmidon useless. Medium drones flying as fast as they can providing marginal DPS and super short range guns that will probably only get fired at the first and MAYBE second parimary. A **** tank for a gang if you go for active, and mediocre with a wasted bonus if you do passive. A drake will provide FAR more DPS, FAR more survivability, is well suited to RR, AND does it's full DPS with a flight of warriors out killing enemy frigates, whereas for the Myrmidon to do full DPS it has to use an absurd 2/2/1 drone mix that in reality won't be applying any DPS as your heavies go nowhere and fast.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.12.21 23:38:00 - [43] Edited by: Tippia on 21/12/2010 23:41:00 Originally by: Asuka Smith If it is 2v2 the drake just surpassed your Myrmidon in terms of effective tank. Have you had a look at the buffer you can put on a Myrm? Yes, the active tank is fun and all, but it provides pretty much the same buffer tanking capabilities as the Drake (possibly even more, due to more gracious fitting space) Quote: If there is more than 10km of travel for your Myrmidon between targets then the Drake just surpassed you in DPS. Both Laser and AC myrm would like a word with you (and that's just looking at the short-range options)à Quote: Yeah, it brings some DPS, but that DPS is all range 0. Lol no. I'll grant you that it might be more of a medium-range boat, but if you think for a second that it's limited to being up close and personal, you haven't quite investigated the options. All in all, it sounds like you need to go back and play around a bit with it ù I think you'll be surprised with the kind of stuff you can do with one of the most versatile ships in the gameà ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Lili Lu	Posted - 2010.12.21 23:47:00 - [44] Originally by: daisy dook Originally by: NoNah Originally by: daisy dook Remove the lag and don't armour HAC gangs give the drake blob a good fisting ? Other way around. How so? ooh ooh can i answer? Speaking as someone who was involved in many such battles, it is not a simple matter either way. Generally, AHACs will destroy Drake blobs or equal or slightly greater numbers up to a certain point. Somewhere around 200 fleet size. Then Drakes start to take over because they possess the range advantage and their alpha can swamp the lesser ehp buffers on the ahacs and armor logis. The wiggle room comes in with the number of logis either side has in the fleet. But again, once you get around 200 or more for the fleet size on the drakes the AHACs will get volleyed while not able to reel in the Drakes fast enough to counter. Regardless, this is now the umpteenth nerf drake thread and even i, a drake hater, am getting tired of them. If you need to ask or want to post, please instead take the time to read the other threads. So many of the arguments have been presented with or without support so many times it really gets old. This has been hashed over and is now thoroughly burnt. Doubtful anyone can add anything new. And, though I am tempted to present my arguments for a nerf again, I won't for the very reasons i stated above. CCP is "presently reviewing" the situation and may or may not be "making changes" "soon". One thing I will say, that some may view as argument, but I view as just exasperated fatigue, is please noone bring up "but drakes can be countered by firewall BSs because I saw the video . . ." I was in that first initial and very successful firewall BS v drake battle as presented in the video. It did work well. And it worked ok in some later engagements. Then counters started being devised and we discovered some kinks in the mechanics. INIT has abandonned firewall BS fleets and is now flying, wait for it, DRAKES That is all you need to know about that situtation.
Asuka Smith Gallente Noir.	Posted - 2010.12.22 01:28:00 - [45] Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 21/12/2010 23:41:00 Originally by: Asuka Smith If it is 2v2 the drake just surpassed your Myrmidon in terms of effective tank. Have you had a look at the buffer you can put on a Myrm? Yes, the active tank is fun and all, but it provides pretty much the same buffer tanking capabilities as the Drake (possibly even more, due to more gracious fitting space) Quote: If there is more than 10km of travel for your Myrmidon between targets then the Drake just surpassed you in DPS. Both Laser and AC myrm would like a word with you (and that's just looking at the short-range options)à Quote: Yeah, it brings some DPS, but that DPS is all range 0. Lol no. I'll grant you that it might be more of a medium-range boat, but if you think for a second that it's limited to being up close and personal, you haven't quite investigated the options. All in all, it sounds like you need to go back and play around a bit with it ù I think you'll be surprised with the kind of stuff you can do with one of the most versatile ships in the gameà [Myrmidon, Shield] Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Damage Control II Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II 425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M 425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M 425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M 425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M 425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M 425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Hammerhead II x5 533 DPS, 72k EHP, 1.1km/s /w MWD [Myrmidon, Laser Shield] Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Damage Control II Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Hammerhead II x5 566 DPS, 72k EHP, 1.1km/s [Drake, HAM] Power Diagnostic System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Damage Control II Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Warp Scrambler II Stasis Webifier II Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Small Energy Neutralizer II Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Warrior II x5 542 /w Navy Terror 442 /w Javeling 86k EHP, 1km/s with faction 725m/s with T2, and has tackle Which is more valuable to gang again?
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.12.22 01:48:00 - [46] Originally by: Asuka Smith Hammerhead II x5 566 DPS, 72k EHP, 1.1km/s àLike I said, you're not quite looking at all the options here ù you're missing out on quite a bit of both EHP and DPS (nor are you adding in the higher-damage options the way you did for the Drake). àthen again, you didn't exactly fit the Drake optimally (or comparatively) either. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Aristeia Cersei	Posted - 2010.12.22 02:31:00 - [47] Edited by: Aristeia Cersei on 22/12/2010 02:33:39 The whiners spouting off about 650-700 DPs obviously don't fly Drakes very much and spend far too much time with EFT open. The only way you are getting that kind of DPS is using HAM's and almost no one uses HAMS in their Drake gangs. Most Drake gangs are using HML's which offer up much much lower DPS. The advantage of Drakes and the reason they are popular is nice tanks/high resists and the long range of HML's not HAM fits that also have to gimp their tank to fit it. Not to mention the Drake only gets damage bonus to Kin and how many ships is it worth shooting Kin at vs EM or Explosive? Not a hell of a lot. Drake simply works because it has a good tank and decent damage but nothing spectacular on the damage side.
Vmir Gallahasen Gallente United Mining And Distribution	Posted - 2010.12.22 02:55:00 - [48] Originally by: Tippia Like I said, you're not quite looking at all the options here ù you're missing out on quite a bit of both EHP and DPS (nor are you adding in the higher-damage options the way you did for the Drake). You were the one who made the statement. He made a pretty decent effort at going megatank with no tackle on the myrmidon and still coming up short EHP-wise vs a drake that you said yourself wasn't optimal, I think it's your turn to both optimize the drake and show a myrmidon that beats its EHP while still having reasonable dps and gang utility
Proxyyyy Caldari draketrain	Posted - 2010.12.22 03:18:00 - [49] Asuka Smith, personaly i'm pretty sure i understand they're no 1 v 1's in eve. Since i dont go out looking for those engagements or expect them (traps are fun). I can honestly say, the Mrymidon is a freaking beast! Depending on the damage the battlecruisers your Mrymidon is engaging are doing. The Myrmidon, can tank upwards of 2 - 3 bc's with Exiles boosters and double reps alone. Funny enough, i started flying the ship in your corp (Noir.) only 2-3 months ago. While its not viable in very large fleet combat. You can however engage smaller gangs of 3 - 5. Hopefuly all that damage does not land on you right away, but its still very viable; The ship excels in solo pvp for the most part though. While in your corp (Noir.) i had my first and second engagement in the mrym EVER (this is me learning to fly the ship). http://www.xfire.com/video/3b94ec/ I only uploading these vids because my bros wanted to see and understand a bit about how active tanking and the Myrmidon works (same as myself). In your corp i engaged 6 diffrent gangs before i left and fraps them all. Did not lose the ship once and the gangs ranged from 2 - 5 (i did that all to test its tank in the real deal). http://www.xfire.com/video/3c6802/ This was my second to last engagement in teh Mrymidon before I stoped uploading fraps for people and i decided to switch to the Sacrilege. This is after getting a understanding of the Mrymidon and pushing it as far as i could. http://proxyyyy.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=8160795 Died in this fight just when the Zealot was in 3% hull (was frapsed too). I was managing modules poorly and if i had taken the zealot down i would be able to tank the other 2 long enough to atleast kill the drake too... The ship seems overpowered, in my opinion. The Mrymidon seems way beyond the other battlecruisers (similar to the drake). -Discard females. Smoke trees. Win battles, Acquire ISK
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.12.22 03:25:00 - [50] Originally by: Aristeia Cersei Most Drake gangs are using HML's which offer up much much lower DPS. I completely agree. 560 DPS is much much much much lower than 650! I mean, 560 DPS is almost zero DPS! -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died -
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.12.22 03:29:00 - [51] Originally by: Tippia Like I said, you're not quite looking at all the options here ù you're missing out on quite a bit of both EHP and DPS (nor are you adding in the higher-damage options the way you did for the Drake). I agree. The Myrm is so awesome, check it out! [Myrmidon, LOL] Damage Control II Power Diagnostic System II Power Diagnostic System II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M Medium Core Defence Field Extender II Medium Core Defence Field Extender II Medium Core Defence Field Extender II Ogre II x2 Hammerhead II x2 Hobgoblin II x1 Its got 997 DPS and 170K EHP! -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died -
Merbusent	Posted - 2010.12.22 11:17:00 - [52] eccm is generally good for.. missiles? not in this game so I guess its kind of a pro factor that something hits regardless but thinking about that since when have they been usefull on anything else other than drake, These need to be beefed up and distributed freely to each race and some caldari bonuses removed tbh tbh tbh.
Dr Fighter	Posted - 2010.12.22 11:45:00 - [53] to anyone with a INGAME clue will tell you cane -> harb -> drake for any real pvp gang. everyone flys drake because its the easyest to get in and use for pve, thats really it. The cane is FAR better pvp boat than the drake, EFT warriors fail, any flying exp in these ships with the latest cookie setups will say the same i expect.
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2010.12.22 13:01:00 - [54] Originally by: Dr Fighter The cane is FAR better pvp boat than the drake, EFT warriors fail, any flying exp in these ships with the latest cookie setups will say the same i expect. Indeed. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Nanferr	Posted - 2010.12.22 13:56:00 - [55] anyone saying X bc is better then Y bc in all situations is either an idiot, elitist, or an eft warrior.
Diesel47	Posted - 2010.12.22 13:58:00 - [56] Remove minmitar from the game, they are overpowered.
Pohbis Neo T.E.C.H.	Posted - 2010.12.22 14:17:00 - [57] Edited by: Pohbis on 22/12/2010 14:19:18 Drake DPS EHP Pick 2 The Cane wipes the floor with the Drake. Now FOTM Shield buffer + Logi blobs. That's another matter, but by that standard, the Zealot is overpowered as well
Kastsumi Kobayariel	Posted - 2010.12.22 15:17:00 - [58] Quote: the buffer drake is seriously overpowered Hi it's you you're overpowered.
daisy dook	Posted - 2010.12.22 15:43:00 - [59] Originally by: Lili Lu ooh ooh can i answer? Speaking as someone who was involved in many such battles, it is not a simple matter either way. Generally, AHACs will destroy Drake blobs or equal or slightly greater numbers up to a certain point. Somewhere around 200 fleet size. Then Drakes start to take over because they possess the range advantage and their alpha can swamp the lesser ehp buffers on the ahacs and armor logis. So AHACs > drake in fleets of up to 200. That is a different tale to Drakes >>> AHACs as put forward by NoNah, I was attempting to get the detail that leads him to think that. Originally by: Lili Lu One thing I will say, that some may view as argument, but I view as just exasperated fatigue, is please noone bring up "but drakes can be countered by firewall BSs because I saw the video . . ." I was in that first initial and very successful firewall BS v drake battle as presented in the video. It did work well. And it worked ok in some later engagements. Then counters started being devised and we discovered some kinks in the mechanics. INIT has abandonned firewall BS fleets and is now flying, wait for it, DRAKES That is all you need to know about that situtation. I heard that the 'firewall' failed because the drake blob brought too much lag for the 'firewall' to perform it's duty... Rumour has it that the answer is moar alpha and moar range whilst utilising the benefits of passive shield recharge in the laggy enviroment... So our saviour from the drake blob is a bigger drake aka the nano arty Rokh!
Indeterminacy THORN Syndicate Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2010.12.22 15:58:00 - [60] Originally by: Major Sackrash There's no denying it, in the current pvp climate the buffer drake is seriously overpowered... No.
Seriously Bored Minmatar	Posted - 2010.12.22 16:03:00 - [61] Originally by: Diesel47 Remove minmitar from the game, they are overpowered. Naomi, is that you? ùùùùù Originally by: CCP Big Dumb Object When I nerf something, it takes 2-3 months for your dreams to be crushed.
Aglais Caldari	Posted - 2010.12.22 17:34:00 - [62] My drake does half the DPS you say it does. I have BC 4, T2 HAMs, and adequate missile support skills. You are whining for the sake of whining. Drakes are not overpowered. You simply got blobbed. A blob of ANY ship is extremely hard to survive. Lets say you got hit by a big clump of Moas. If they tore your fleet apart, would you whine about them being overpowered too?
NoNah	Posted - 2010.12.22 17:52:00 - [63] Originally by: Aglais My drake does half the DPS you say it does. I have BC 4, T2 HAMs, and adequate missile support skills. You are whining for the sake of whining. Drakes are not overpowered. You simply got blobbed. A blob of ANY ship is extremely hard to survive. Lets say you got hit by a big clump of Moas. If they tore your fleet apart, would you whine about them being overpowered too? If you do 350 dps with a fully setup ham drake, then no, you do not have adequate missile support skills. Something is terribly terribly wrong. Especially as you'd be trying to get alot of dps out of it. Parrots, commence! Postcount: 871979
Brian Ballsack	Posted - 2010.12.22 18:29:00 - [64] I would much rather fly a myrm or a cane than a noobmobile (drake)
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.12.22 18:33:00 - [65] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 22/12/2010 18:34:19 Originally by: Brian Ballsack I would much rather fly a myrm or a cane than a noobmobile (drake) Yeah, the Myrm is pretty sweet. The Drones are totally faster than a Drake's missiles, and they do more damage too. Oh, and the sentry guns totally don't blow them up. TBQFH, the Myrm is the noob mobile these days - and the Drake has always been able to whomp its ass. -Liang Ed: I am aware that active tanking is actually pretty cool for 1v1 fights where DPS is "low". But that's a really small niche. -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died -
Aristeia Cersei	Posted - 2010.12.24 01:13:00 - [66] Edited by: Aristeia Cersei on 24/12/2010 01:26:17 Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Aristeia Cersei Most Drake gangs are using HML's which offer up much much lower DPS. I completely agree. 560 DPS is much much much much lower than 650! I mean, 560 DPS is almost zero DPS! -Liang Hello Mr didn't read,.. the highest DPS only comes when using Kinetic missiles. Yea want to count how many ships it's best to shoot Kin at vs EM, Exp or Therm? Example.. even with the Kin bonus you do more damage when shooting a shield tanked ship when using EM missiles. The same can be said for many armor tanked ships as well. Now second off, please post this HML fit that does 560 DPS.. I'd "love" to see a 560 DPS HML drake that still has tank.. The typical HML drake that the 90% of EVE flys a variant of, in Drake fleets, uses 2 BCU's and only does 411 DPS with "all" level V skills and using T2 ammo (no drones).. Yes that very same T2 ammo that makes your sig bigger than a damn Abaddon. Meanwhile if you don't want your ship to be the size of a barn in space, you use faction ammo which drops your DPS down to 388 DPS using Kin. Now, as I've already mention when shooting shield tanked ships like other Drakes for instance even with the 5% per level bonus to scourge, it's far better to shoot EM missiles. Regardless of the Kin bonus, because you still do more damage shooting EM, much the same as explosive on many armor tanked ships as I mentioned above. When shooting "non-bonused" ammo that DPS gets dropped to 368 (with out drones) The only way you are getting in the 550 DPS range is by dropping tank to fit a 3rd BCU. Meaning if you go for a 2x lrg SE/1 inv and 3 BCU's.. but again this requires using T2 ammo that makes your sig bigger than a battleship. It also require drones being on the target which isn't always possible. While sure you might be able to EFT up a fit as this, it typically isn't as practicable in space as the biggest reason drake gangs are uses is for the large tank and high resists.
Wacktopia Dark Side Of The Womb	Posted - 2010.12.24 01:45:00 - [67] Originally by: Liang Nuren TBQFH, the Myrm is the noob mobile these days - and the Drake has always been able to whomp its ass. -Liang Ed: I am aware that active tanking is actually pretty cool for 1v1 fights where DPS is "low". But that's a really small niche. Indeed. The fact that Gallente still has both BCs with an active tank bonus is laughable. Only the Myrm with tripple repper + implants + drugs is merely 'ok' in a gang fight. Active tanking a Brutix is laughable. The Myrm now annoys me to the point of frustration.... 3 heavy drones?? What the hell use are they? Slow, massive (400) resolution, mediocre dps even with guns. CCP nerfed 125 bandwidth Myrms without thinking about the terrible, b1stardised 180mm auto boat it would become. If changing back to 125 or 100 is too much then give the Myrm 20% damage bonus per level for drones instead of 10% and keep the bandwidth as it is - take off a couple of turrets to balance.
Metamoran	Posted - 2010.12.24 02:09:00 - [68]
Ragnar256 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.12.24 02:13:00 - [69] I do not consider a Drake to be OP. Me and a corpmate fought to half armor, Drake vs my ratting Cane. By the time my ship got to half armor, the Drake's shield had only a sliver left. I'm fairly certain that if the fight continued to the death, I'd have taken the victory as the Drake has nothing for it's armor, nor hull.
Kai Yuen	Posted - 2010.12.24 03:14:00 - [70] This is just another thread blaming blobbing on a single element of the game. Drakes aren't OP, blobbing is. Sure, drakes in massive numbers = the win, but ANYTHING in massive numbers = the win. People only fly the drake because when it comes to shield tanking the drake is the best buffer tank around. Why would you choose anything else? The drake is supposed to be the best shield tank. Well it is, that's why it gets flown.
Megan Maynard Minmatar Out of Order	Posted - 2010.12.24 06:08:00 - [71] Nonah knows his **. And the drake is damn near a perfect fleet ship. Cost, range, buffer, damage... It's got it all. Originally by:** F'nog Originally by: Stareatthesun No no no ... Polaris is where CCP keeps the death star that will destroy eve when the servers shut down. Thankfully I've got Interceptors trained to V. S
Nanferr	Posted - 2010.12.24 06:30:00 - [72] Quote: Hello Mr didn't read,.. the highest DPS only comes when using Kinetic missiles. Yea want to count how many ships it's best to shoot Kin at vs EM, Exp or Therm? Example.. even with the Kin bonus you do more damage when shooting a shield tanked ship when using EM missiles. The same can be said for many armor tanked ships as well. arguably only gallente has natural anti-kinetic resists. just like all high range ammo (tremor,scorch,spike,null,barrage) all of them have fixed damage type. If you engage at drakes range (50+km), u will probably be using t2 ammo, which means amarr always has em therm, gallente kinetic therm, minmatar explosive kinetic and caldari kinetic.
Sjugar	Posted - 2010.12.24 07:11:00 - [73] Having been in quite a few large blobs and flown ahacs, battleships and drakes I see a few problems with the drakes. (this is only about blob warfare in laggy environments. 1: cost. A drake is is insurable and you get 22 million isk back. And a fitted drake costs about 55-60 million so you're only down like 32-38 million. An Ahac costs over 100 and isn't really insurable and while armor battleships are insurable you have to put about 70 million worth of large trimark rigs on them. 2: lag. Drakes work pretty good in laggy situations. I'd even say some aspects of a drake get better in laq. Missiles in lag fly further then they should. I've been able to hit targets at 82.5 km away, which is my max (bonused) locking range but it's well beyond my max-non-lag missile range. 3: lag. A drake is a shield tanker and there is one thing that doesn't seem to be effected by lag and that's natural shield regeneration. If you manage to get damage on a drake but not kill it, it will just negate a lot of that damage in a short amount of time and in lag the time between damage is often long. Also multiple bombing runs can be devastating to battleships. Even when not killing them they lose more and more of their buffer And it stays lost. A drake just regenerates between bombing runs. 4: lag. After all these advantages a drake has in lag, a drake is a missile boat and all this missiles increase the lag. 5: skill-point requirement. For all other fleet-blob ships the SP requirement is a lot higher to fly them effectively. Not for a drake, this makes the pool of people that can join your blob bigger. 6: ? 7: Profit.
Agallis Zinthros SniggWaffe GoonSwarm	Posted - 2010.12.24 07:53:00 - [74] The Drake is not overpowered. It has weaknesses. An example of a ship that is overpowered is the Dramiel. Excellent speed, tank, and DPS. There is literally no weakness with the Dramiel, and it needs to be severely nerfed. It's not piracy, its surprise PVP.
Kai Yuen	Posted - 2010.12.24 09:32:00 - [75] Originally by: Sjugar Having been in quite a few large blobs and flown ahacs, battleships and drakes I see a few problems with the drakes. (this is only about blob warfare in laggy environments. 1: cost. A drake is is insurable and you get 22 million isk back. And a fitted drake costs about 55-60 million so you're only down like 32-38 million. An Ahac costs over 100 and isn't really insurable and while armor battleships are insurable you have to put about 70 million worth of large trimark rigs on them. 2: lag. Drakes work pretty good in laggy situations. I'd even say some aspects of a drake get better in laq. Missiles in lag fly further then they should. I've been able to hit targets at 82.5 km away, which is my max (bonused) locking range but it's well beyond my max-non-lag missile range. 3: lag. A drake is a shield tanker and there is one thing that doesn't seem to be effected by lag and that's natural shield regeneration. If you manage to get damage on a drake but not kill it, it will just negate a lot of that damage in a short amount of time and in lag the time between damage is often long. Also multiple bombing runs can be devastating to battleships. Even when not killing them they lose more and more of their buffer And it stays lost. A drake just regenerates between bombing runs. 4: lag. After all these advantages a drake has in lag, a drake is a missile boat and all this missiles increase the lag. 5: skill-point requirement. For all other fleet-blob ships the SP requirement is a lot higher to fly them effectively. Not for a drake, this makes the pool of people that can join your blob bigger. 6: ? 7: Profit. Drakes are only good in blobs anyways, which is why you see so many of them. It's either go big or fly Minmatar. If your only complaints are lag and cost, then the Drake itself isn't even an issue. Insurance is broken. Not the Drake's fault. T2 is way too expensive. Not the Drake's fault. Lag, also not the Drake's fault. Lag from missiles stems from the missile mechanic. Yes, Drake's fit missiles so therefor they're automatically at fault... not. Clearly the missile mechanic needs to be reworked. The passive shield recharge during lag argument is a load of crap. I can be put down to half shield in a lagfest and 10 minutes later I'll still be in half shield, maybe slightly more. Now you're just fishing for more things to blame the Drake for. The Drake is balanced. Face it. Sure, it blobs well, but so do other ships. The Drake is just the shield BC of choice. The zealot is the AHAC/sniper HAC of choice, shall we nerf it too? What about the Abaddon, armor BS of choice? Nerf? Nerf the vaga, nano HAC of choice? Nerf Angel, small gang/ sniper BS of choice? Nerf the Nyx? Super carrier of choice. One ship is bound to be better than it's piers. Don't hate the player...
Aristeia Cersei	Posted - 2010.12.24 09:54:00 - [76] Edited by: Aristeia Cersei on 24/12/2010 09:54:14 Originally by: Nanferr arguably only gallente has natural anti-kinetic resists. just like all high range ammo (tremor,scorch,spike,null,barrage) all of them have fixed damage type. If you engage at drakes range (50+km), u will probably be using t2 ammo, which means amarr always has em therm, gallente kinetic therm, minmatar explosive kinetic and caldari kinetic. When dealing in T2 ships Kin is the highest or 2nd high resistance for both armor & shields on every races ships with the exception of Minmatar. Yet Explosive is still 15% less than Kin on Min armor. On T1 ship hulls it's typically just Amarr whom have a worth while Kin hole. With a 25% Kin resistance vs the explosive of 20% on armor. These are of course just base ship stats with no hardners or skills involved. Meaning on all ships except T1 Amarr & T2 Gal it's typically better to fire what ever ammo hits their natural resist hole vs the bonused Kin ammo. So yea sure people can EFT warrior it up and come up with blahh blahh, DPS and scream OMG Drake is too ubber. Yet in a actual PVP environment it means very little. At the end of the day in real PVP environment, typical fleet fit Drakes are typically spitting out mid to high 300 DPS. Not the 550 DPS that whats his name claims. That is sub par DPs compared to other BC's in it's class making it very balanced by giving it a better tank than average.
Nanferr	Posted - 2010.12.24 11:13:00 - [77] So how are you going to argue that all tremor, barrage, scorth doing only 80-100 dps to fleet drakes 83.9%, 76.9%, 82.7%, 85.6% resists? 300 might be less then 550. but its definitely god compared to what non-drakes do on drakes. Kinetic, being 2nd or 3rd best damage type is a good damage type to have against any opponent except gallente. Compared to explosive, any armor tanker will plug this with an armor hardener II, and any fleet drakes or other shield tankers will plug their EM with photon hardeners. That is why thermal and kinetic is really the better ship. If you want to make a fleet out of a single type of ship, you want a ship that can murder any stereotype that you meet. unlike explosives and EM no one bothers counting real dps. its much easier to count EHP.
RnDr Brain	Posted - 2010.12.24 11:55:00 - [78] What is Drake ?
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.12.24 14:08:00 - [79] I would also like to see this mystical 560+dps HML fit. Going by my EFT, all 5 skills with scourge fury missiles and 3x Caldari navy BCUs only just hits 489 missile dps. Now of course it's possible that everyone is fitting faction BCUs on their Drakes but it seems a bit more likely they're exaggerating their damage just a bit. Anyway, on the subject of Drake balance - I honestly think they're just a scapegoat for the fact RR has become way too prolific. Tell you what, give me a gang of 100 Cerbs with 20 or so Scimitars and I'll show you a gang that has similar missile dps to the Drakes with smaller sigs, more speed, more agility and in fact more damage tanked. Nerf the Drake, and my money is on it becoming Cerb gang vs Zealot gang instead, or some other ship backed with 50 Scimitars. It's blindingly obvious that logistics are the problem here, pretty much any ship is going to be ridiculous with that kind of RR backing it. _________________________________ ROCKET STATUS: FIX IN PROGRESS...
Megan Maynard Minmatar Out of Order	Posted - 2010.12.24 14:22:00 - [80] Edited by: Megan Maynard on 24/12/2010 14:22:07 That was easy....653 dps with no implants. [Drake, New Setup 1] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II [empty low slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot] Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile [empty high slot] Hobgoblin II x5 Originally by: F'nog Originally by: Stareatthesun No no no ... Polaris is where CCP keeps the death star that will destroy eve when the servers shut down. Thankfully I've got Interceptors trained to V. S
Lili Lu	Posted - 2010.12.24 14:44:00 - [81] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington I would also like to see this mystical 560+dps HML fit. Going by my EFT, all 5 skills with scourge fury missiles and 3x Caldari navy BCUs only just hits 489 missile dps. Now of course it's possible that everyone is fitting faction BCUs on their Drakes but it seems a bit more likely they're exaggerating their damage just a bit. Anyway, on the subject of Drake balance - I honestly think they're just a scapegoat for the fact RR has become way too prolific. Tell you what, give me a gang of 100 Cerbs with 20 or so Scimitars and I'll show you a gang that has similar missile dps to the Drakes with smaller sigs, more speed, more agility and in fact more damage tanked. Nerf the Drake, and my money is on it becoming Cerb gang vs Zealot gang instead, or some other ship backed with 50 Scimitars. It's blindingly obvious that logistics are the problem here, pretty much any ship is going to be ridiculous with that kind of RR backing it. I agree that 560 dps on a bog standard heavy missile blob drake sounds sorta high. Wtihout bothering to check eft either, I thought it would be more between 400-450. But of course that is still better than any other BC using long ranged turret ammo trying to reach the same distance with TEs competing with damage mods and have anything near the same tank. It can't be done, which is partly why we have Drakes forming fleets. The other half being the advantage of shield rr cycle mechanics in lag. As to logistics themselves, they are not the problem. Every fleet composition depends on them if it is going to be viable. And, coordinated play is what CCP wants. Logistics are what CCP wants, and in that they are correct. The game would be quite dull without them. It would just be shoot and wait your turn to crumble under opposing fire without logistics. It is actually just as exhilirating to see a ship brought back from deep structure as any kill in a fleet battle. Logistics are only highlighting the overpowered tank while still maintaining enough damage ability, and ability to project that damage at the same time, that the Drake uniquely possesses amongst BCs. It puts the Drake into the league of BSs and surpasses some of them in fact, which is why we are having this discussion. So one can either reduce the tank or reduce the dps so that it is no longer a class above other BCs. From the statements CCP has made it appears they are leaning toward nerfing the dps (at least in regards to being able to project so much at range). This could be the wrong approach as it will only butress the oft heard complaint of caldari pilots that their ships can't pvp (i.e. top killmails). I think it would be better to remove the tanking bonus (and slightly nerf BC shield regen overall) and replace it with an offensive bonus of some kind, though not too powerful so as not to create an entirely differnt beast out of a HAM drake. Losing the resist bonus would be enough to knock the Drake, like all other BCs, out of the fleet configuration v BSs. Also, offensive bonuses replacing the tanking bonuses on the drake and myrm would bring a consistency to BC tiers between the races. Tier 1 having a tanking bonus for each race (without discussing the limitations of active tanking bonuses). Tier 2 having ganking bonuses. Unfortunately, it doesn't appear they are going this direction. As to Cerbs for fleets, well that is to be expected. Considering the training that goes into fleet BSs and fleet HACs It would be good for the game if people started flying the Cerb instead of the Drake. It is exactly what the game should be about, skilling longer for better ships, not lucking into an overpowered lower skill ship. Also, as to monoculture fleets in general, I hate them, and I think people will realize that they don't work as well as mixed HAC or mixed BS fleets anyway. But this may take a little time.
Kaden Wyatt	Posted - 2010.12.24 15:29:00 - [82] Caldari can't pvp. nerf drake Im no expert but my sleipnir (command ship) can take out a drake fairly easily but struggles to brake the tank of a Nighthawk (command ship). nerf drake. All Noobs fly drakes. nerf drake. Drake ehp is far to much which only adds to the joy of pvp (it lasts longer). nerf drake I personally feel all ships are set about right, some are better at some things some at others. nerf drake So please nerf the drake, oops i mean don't nerf the drake and i have no intention of ever flying one. nerf drake And now a real reason to nerf the drake = to stop nerf the drake whinners. fly safe and Merry Christmas to you all, even you nerf drake people. Kaden
Megan Maynard Minmatar Out of Order	Posted - 2010.12.24 15:48:00 - [83] Originally by: Kaden Wyatt Caldari can't pvp. nerf drake Im no expert but my sleipnir (command ship) can take out a drake fairly easily but struggles to brake the tank of a Nighthawk (command ship). nerf drake. All Noobs fly drakes. nerf drake. Drake ehp is far to much which only adds to the joy of pvp (it lasts longer). nerf drake I personally feel all ships are set about right, some are better at some things some at others. nerf drake So please nerf the drake, oops i mean don't nerf the drake and i have no intention of ever flying one. nerf drake And now a real reason to nerf the drake = to stop nerf the drake whinners. fly safe and Merry Christmas to you all, even you nerf drake people. Kaden It's not a matter of just a popular ship getting used too much. You cannot match the drake in a fleet situation without going to battleships that cost 3 times as much to fit out. Cost EHP Range DPS The ship really has no problems fitting EXACTLY what it needs. Want to fit damage and tank on the other BC's like the drake can? good freakin luck. Originally by: F'nog Originally by: Stareatthesun No no no ... Polaris is where CCP keeps the death star that will destroy eve when the servers shut down. Thankfully I've got Interceptors trained to V. S
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.12.24 16:02:00 - [84] Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 24/12/2010 16:05:43 Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 24/12/2010 16:02:42 Quote: That was easy....653 dps with no implants. You seem capable with EFT but a lot less capable of reading comprehension, I was very specific about it being a HML fit (which is how they're fitted for large fleets) Quote: he ship really has no problems fitting EXACTLY what it needs. Want to fit damage and tank on the other BC's like the drake can? good freakin luck. Oh look, 69.6k EHP and 650 dps. It even has the grid left over for a somewhat unneeded medium cap booster and neuts (Which is what the HAM Drake trades off for its increased EHP). [Hurricane, Armour] 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Damage Control II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Warp Disruptor II Stasis Webifier II Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M Small Energy Neutralizer II Small Energy Neutralizer II Medium Trimark Armor Pump I Medium Trimark Armor Pump I Medium Trimark Armor Pump I Hobgoblin II x5 _________________________________ ROCKET STATUS: FIX IN PROGRESS...
Aristeia Cersei	Posted - 2010.12.24 23:06:00 - [85] Edited by: Aristeia Cersei on 24/12/2010 23:12:01 Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington I would also like to see this mystical 560+dps HML fit. Going by my EFT, all 5 skills with scourge fury missiles and 3x Caldari navy BCUs only just hits 489 missile dps. With "all" lvl V skills you can get 543 DPs with dones by using 3x BCU II's. However to get that you have to drop some of your tank and add a CPU upgrade. Which puts you just a tad bit more than a Armor tanked Cane that can also spit out much more DPS. Not to mention the Drake only gets that much DPS using T2 Kin missiles while the cane can pick it's damage type and gets full DPS regardless of which resist based ammo it shoot. Now don't get me wrong, the Drake is a great BC and for my own kinda fighting it's one of the better choices because I tend to dual box 2 of them in a fight and they are far more manageable than say 2 Myrms or 2 shield tanked canes.
Aristeia Cersei	Posted - 2010.12.24 23:17:00 - [86] Edited by: Aristeia Cersei on 24/12/2010 23:19:54 It's not a matter of just a popular ship getting used too much. You cannot match the drake in a fleet situation without going to battleships that cost 3 times as much to fit out. Cost EHP Range DPS The ship really has no problems fitting EXACTLY what it needs. Want to fit damage and tank on the other BC's like the drake can? good freakin luck. So where were the whines about Nefing Amarr BS's because nothing could touch the Apoc when it came to T1 sniper fleets? Oh wait.. Zealot gangs took care of that right? So now it's Drakes.. few months it will be something else and the same people will be complaining. The only real difference in the Drake, is it's a bit more accessible to less skilled players which means more can easily show up. Not to mention it's much easier to take a BC gang out for a roam that to drag around a bunch of BS's.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.12.24 23:20:00 - [87] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 24/12/2010 23:23:31 Originally by: Aristeia Cersei Edited by: Aristeia Cersei on 24/12/2010 23:12:01 Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington I would also like to see this mystical 560+dps HML fit. Going by my EFT, all 5 skills with scourge fury missiles and 3x Caldari navy BCUs only just hits 489 missile dps. With "all" lvl V skills you can get 543 DPs with dones by using 3x BCU II's. 7x HML II, Scourge Fury, 3 BCU, 5 Hobgoblins = 561 DPS. Simple fact. Not only can you get 78K EHP without overheating, you also don't have to fit a CPU mod or sacrifice a T2 damage control. -Liang Ed: If you try a bit, you can squeeze 87K EHP (96K overheated) out of the Drake in this configuration and still have tackle. ;-) -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died -
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.12.24 23:21:00 - [88] Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 24/12/2010 23:24:17 Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 24/12/2010 23:21:51 Quote: Not to mention the Drake only gets that much DPS using T2 Kin missiles while the cane can pick it's damage type and gets full DPS regardless of which resist based ammo it shoot. Yes, this was exactly the point I was trying to make. Well done for noticing. But I see people all over the place quoting absurdly high dps figures for HML Drakes, or as is frequently the case in this thread getting the HML and HAM Drake mixed up. Similar fits on paper but they work very differently in practice. By the way, I was very specific about pure missile dps because I kinda doubt you'll be sending your drones anywhere near max range. I'd also like to repeat this point: If a ship is a one dimensional tank/gank machine, it should be very good at that job, or it's not worth flying over more versatile alternatives. _________________________________ ROCKET STATUS: FIX IN PROGRESS...
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.12.24 23:25:00 - [89] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington By the way, I was very specific about pure missile dps because I kinda doubt you'll be sending your drones anywhere near max range. Does this mean that you're also not fitting a disruptor since it also won't function at max range? -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died -
Aristeia Cersei	Posted - 2010.12.24 23:26:00 - [90] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 24/12/2010 23:21:51 Quote: Not to mention the Drake only gets that much DPS using T2 Kin missiles while the cane can pick it's damage type and gets full DPS regardless of which resist based ammo it shoot. Yes, this was exactly the point I was trying to make. Well done for noticing. But I see people all over the place quoting absurdly high dps figures for HML Drakes, or as is frequently the case in this thread getting the HML and HAM Drake mixed up. Similar fits on paper but they work very differently in practice. By the way, I was very specific about pure missile dps because I kinda doubt you'll be sending your drones anywhere near max range. U'mm I'm not here saying how ubber the Drake is.. I was the one saying the high DPS was a bunch of BS if you read my other posts. I just tossed out basic info on how you can "eft warrior" up that kind of DPS numbers, yet I mentoned several times that real world PVP doesn't go so well with the eft warrior numbers. Hell in my first post I mentioned that drones are not put on the target in many cases. so trying reading more than one post..
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.12.24 23:28:00 - [91] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington By the way, I was very specific about pure missile dps because I kinda doubt you'll be sending your drones anywhere near max range. Does this mean that you're also not fitting a disruptor since it also won't function at max range? Quote: 7x HML II, Scourge Fury, 3 BCU, 5 Hobgoblins = 561 DPS. Simple fact. Not only can you get 78K EHP without overheating, you also don't have to fit a CPU mod or sacrifice a T2 damage control. Here's your 80k EHP Drake, with 3 ballistic controls and disruptor (with a t2 damage control, of course.) Got any suggestions for what to put in that last mid? I have... oh about 2 CPU left at max skills. [Drake, lol CPU] Damage Control II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Warp Disruptor II [empty med slot] Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile [empty high slot] Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Hobgoblin II x5 _________________________________ ROCKET STATUS: FIX IN PROGRESS...
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.12.24 23:29:00 - [92] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington I'd also like to repeat this point: If a ship is a one dimensional tank/gank machine, it should be very good at that job, or it's not worth flying over more versatile alternatives. I don't disagree in principle, but just how much better does it have to be? 15K DPS @ 250km and 50 million EHP just because you somehow can't fit any utility to it? -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died -
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.12.24 23:34:00 - [93] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Here's your 80k EHP Drake, with 3 ballistic controls and disruptor (with a t2 damage control, of course.) Got any suggestions for what to put in that last mid? I have... oh about 2 CPU left at max skills. [Drake, lol CPU] Damage Control II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Warp Disruptor II [empty med slot] Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile [empty high slot] Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Hobgoblin II x5 Sure, here's some ideas for you: For this fit, I'd probably go for a DC II and a 3% CPU implant if I weren't into pirate implants: [Drake, 87K / 560 DPS] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Internal Force Field Array I Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction V-M15 Braced Multispectral Shield Matrix V-M15 Braced Multispectral Shield Matrix Warp Disruptor II Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile [empty high slot] Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Hobgoblin II x5 Here's another one: [Drake, Ranged PVP HML Drake] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Damage Control II Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Invulnerability Field II Sensor Booster II Warp Disruptor II Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile [empty high slot] Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Hobgoblin II x5 -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died -
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.12.24 23:40:00 - [94] Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 24/12/2010 23:41:49 Originally by: Liang Nuren Failfit Quote: you also don't have to fit a CPU mod or sacrifice a T2 damage control. So much for that eh? Edit: no, you don't have to fit a CPU mod, you just have to downgrade half your ship to named. Yeah that's totally overpowered. Originally by: Liang Nuren (fit 2) Gotta love how you needed downgraded gear and a sensor booster to cram that stuff on. And then the end result is about 10k more EHP than an armourcane. Oh and if that's meant to actually use its range, drone damage and the point is now indeed a non-factor. So, the Drake needs maxed out CPU skills just to fit, and without BC5 doesn't actually enjoy the significant EHP boost over its other-race equivilents that is the main defining factor of the ship besides range. _________________________________ ROCKET STATUS: FIX IN PROGRESS...
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.12.24 23:46:00 - [95] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Originally by: Liang Nuren Failfit Quote: you also don't have to fit a CPU mod or sacrifice a T2 damage control. So much for that eh? You're a goddamn *****. If you try a bit, you can use a 3% CPU implant and do exactly* what I said you could. I provided a fit that didn't even need the CPU implant. Also, Just because they're flat better than what you can come up with doesn't make them fail fits. Quote: Originally by: Liang Nuren (fit 2) Gotta love how you needed downgraded gear and a sensor booster to cram that stuff on. And then the end result is about 10k more EHP than an armourcane. Oh and if that's meant to actually use its range, drone damage and the point is now indeed a non-factor. No, the SeBo is so you can actually catch something before it warps off. Not that you would know anything about that though. Quote: So, the Drake needs maxed out CPU skills just to fit, and without BC5 doesn't actually enjoy the significant EHP boost over its other-race equivilents that is the main defining factor of the ship besides range. HOLY ** STOP THE PRESSES! FITTING SKILLS HELP OUT! -Liang -- Eve Forum *** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died -
Aristeia Cersei	Posted - 2010.12.24 23:46:00 - [96] There is actually a much better 3x BCU II fit but I'm not giving it all away. It requires very high skills to fit though which the average fleet blobber wont have.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.12.24 23:54:00 - [97] Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 24/12/2010 23:56:39 Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 24/12/2010 23:56:24 Originally by: Aristeia Cersei This is pretty much the premo HML fit for max DPS & the best tank you can get while getting that DPS. Noobs will never fit it abut it's obviously far too uber for any other BC to compete with so it's has to be nerf'd. Rolling Eyes Plugged it into EFT. Really not seeing anything special here. Quote: You're a goddamn ****. If you try a bit, you can use a 3% CPU implant and do exactly what I said you could. I provided a fit that didn't even need the CPU implant. Also, Just because they're flat better than what you can come up with doesn't make them fail fits. Nope, fitting a 4slot meta 4 tank and a 15 mil damage control makes it a fail fit. Quote: HOLY STOP THE PRESSES! FITTING SKILLS HELP OUT! The point, if you weren't too busy spewing mindless obscenities to notice, is that actually reaching the kind of performance whiners like you are so happy to quote actually requires a very high skill investment relative to equivilent ships. Quote:** No, the SeBo is so you can actually catch something before it warps off. ... And they would roam around without any other tackle ships why? _________________________________ ROCKET STATUS: FIX IN PROGRESS...
Aristeia Cersei	Posted - 2010.12.24 23:56:00 - [98] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Originally by: Aristeia Cersei I have nothing to actually contribute here but just chipping in to make myself sound smart Fixed. Quote: your a idiot.. sorry I even bother replying to you.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.12.24 23:57:00 - [99] Quote: your a idiot.. LOL IRONY Quote: sorry I even bother replying to you. Post was written before your edit. _________________________________ ROCKET STATUS: FIX IN PROGRESS...
Aristeia Cersei	Posted - 2010.12.25 00:01:00 - [100] Edited by: Aristeia Cersei on 25/12/2010 00:01:32 Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Quote: your a idiot.. LOL IRONY Quote: sorry I even bother replying to you. Post was written before your edit. Doesn't matter as you obviously have little if anything to say that is worthwhile. I'm not gonna bother arguing simply because you can't read past the last post.
Korg Leaf Time Bandits.	Posted - 2010.12.25 00:32:00 - [101] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington By the way, I was very specific about pure missile dps because I kinda doubt you'll be sending your drones anywhere near max range. Does this mean that you're also not fitting a disruptor since it also won't function at max range? Quote: 7x HML II, Scourge Fury, 3 BCU, 5 Hobgoblins = 561 DPS. Simple fact. Not only can you get 78K EHP without overheating, you also don't have to fit a CPU mod or sacrifice a T2 damage control. Here's your 80k EHP Drake, with 3 ballistic controls and disruptor (with a t2 damage control, of course.) Got any suggestions for what to put in that last mid? I have... oh about 2 CPU left at max skills. [Drake, lol CPU] Damage Control II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Warp Disruptor II [empty med slot] Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile [empty high slot] Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Hobgoblin II x5 My version of this fit has a tech 2 sheild extender a meta 4 point and a web
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.12.25 01:17:00 - [102] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Nope, fitting a 4slot meta 4 tank and a 15 mil damage control makes it a fail fit. Seems a worthy sacrifice for my Snake set. If I was willing to sac that Omega I'd save 14 mil on a DC II. I find it hilarious you comment on the DC II for a Drake yet everyone expects a 150M faction booster on a cyclone. Fail fit without it. Quote: The point, if you weren't too busy spewing mindless obscenities to notice, is that actually reaching the kind of performance whiners like you are so happy to quote actually requires a very high skill investment relative to equivilent ships. The point, if you weren't so busy spewing mindless drivel, is that fitting skills help all the ships. Try fitting artillery fits without AWU5, for example. Quote: ... And they would roam around without any other tackle ships why? ...... are you really this dense? -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died -
bruce liang Caldari Great Sage Equaling Heaven Blade.	Posted - 2010.12.25 11:50:00 - [103] i don`t think drake has a dps more than 700 you bet,drake has good DPH and resistance ---------------------------
Fistme	Posted - 2010.12.25 16:26:00 - [104] Originally by: Wacktopia Wrong. The drake as a ship is about right. It's best or one-of-the-best in class but it is not 'overpowered'. dude, you just rofled your own argument in the same sentence your "point" is in... "best in class but not overpowered" WTF? really?? I personally don't really care, drakes are for noobs or lazy vets, nuff said. What I do care about is extremely fail points/posts, something you have shown with the quoted statment to be rather gifted at.
Rayner Vanguard	Posted - 2010.12.25 19:53:00 - [105] Well, since no one hasn't posted the link... You all can give any theory, but let the numbers talk : http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20&type=corp I'll copy it : Rank Ships Kills 1 Drake 365,316 2 Hurricane 99,366 Not imba? Rolling Eyes

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