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Aglais
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.12.30 05:36:00 -
[181]
Correct me if I'm wrong, but are ECMs why Caldari suck with everything else?
I remember hearing somewhere that this was supposedly some twisted form of 'balance' to make sure that Caldari wouldn't be OP with ECMs. Either that or this person is a liar.
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Pinky Starstrider
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Posted - 2010.12.30 06:20:00 -
[182]
Edited by: Pinky Starstrider on 30/12/2010 06:22:45 Edited by: Pinky Starstrider on 30/12/2010 06:21:01 IMO Caldari are great in PVP, but their roles are limited. Heck we only have to look back a year ago and see "Drake is ****" or "OMG I trained Caldari what to cross train".
I wouldn't say the Caldari are under powered by any means. Caldari fleets are very potent, if you fly them correctly. They are very very very strong ranged/kite fleets. Unlike say a Gallente/Amarr mixed fleet. Close range they stumble somewhat, but missiles and range bonuses on rails, the available lowslots for speed/gank mods all scream range/kite. The unfortunate issue is, that 3 races can armor tank effectively. While only 2 races can reliably shield tank. Basically Caldari is the stick in the mud because their fleet comps basically shun 50% of pilots (assuming a 25% split).
A correctly set up Caldari fleet that uses the strengths of them is very very very hard to break. This is why drake gangs are so popular. They are highly effective against ships at long range, and because people are either to lazy, or stupid to close that range gap we see numerous drake is OP threads.
Shield based ships are also highly effective on gate camps. They do not require self tank or logi support. Get an onyx, and some BC's or BS and as the gate guns change targets the passive recharge fills the tank back up. This means lows can be used for gank and speed, mids can be focused on tackle and tank.
Caldari are very very good, when they fly together and ocasionally with minnie, but once you start adding them into armor fleets here and there, there strengths fall apart.
Range and Kite fleets are strong, and appear hard to break, unless you have a smart FC that knows what sensor damps are and how to fit an armor fleet to **** them up.
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Drakarin
Gallente Absentia Libertas Solus
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Posted - 2010.12.30 11:02:00 -
[183]
Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: saango0 Everyone agrees it's the most powerful (by far) ewar in the game, and it's been ruining small gang PvP for years. It's the only ewar that renders a ship completely useless.
If you're flying in a small gang, fitting eccm won't help, ignoring the fact that it cripples most fits as it provides no other benefit than countering ECCM. Modules like sensor boosters and tracking computers give a nice bonus even if you don't see that type of ewar, but if you don't encounter ecm when having eccm fitted then you've effectively wasted a slot.
Also, please don't say it's a force multiplier for small gangs to counter blobs, the blobs simply field more ecm than you and you're screwed anyway. I think the game would be much better if ECM in all forms was removed and Caldari just got a different type of ewar. ECM completely nullifies any chances a small gang has at fighting outnumbered.
What do you all think?
a) actually it's the only tool small gangs have to fight vs bigger gangs b) instead of nerfing ECM, buff the other ewar.
No, because the bigger gang just brings more ECM.
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Meeko Atari
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Posted - 2010.12.30 17:04:00 -
[184]
Originally by: Drakarin
Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: saango0 Everyone agrees it's the most powerful (by far) ewar in the game, and it's been ruining small gang PvP for years. It's the only ewar that renders a ship completely useless.
If you're flying in a small gang, fitting eccm won't help, ignoring the fact that it cripples most fits as it provides no other benefit than countering ECCM. Modules like sensor boosters and tracking computers give a nice bonus even if you don't see that type of ewar, but if you don't encounter ecm when having eccm fitted then you've effectively wasted a slot.
Also, please don't say it's a force multiplier for small gangs to counter blobs, the blobs simply field more ecm than you and you're screwed anyway. I think the game would be much better if ECM in all forms was removed and Caldari just got a different type of ewar. ECM completely nullifies any chances a small gang has at fighting outnumbered.
What do you all think?
a) actually it's the only tool small gangs have to fight vs bigger gangs b) instead of nerfing ECM, buff the other ewar.
No, because the bigger gang just brings more ECM.
And this begs the question, why did you willingly engage a bigger gang with ECM support? if you didn't scout them? see them comming? or you just blindly jumped into them...
ECM was the least of your worries.
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Willl Adama
Judicio Sine Misericordia
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Posted - 2010.12.30 23:57:00 -
[185]
Oh man, don't ya'all just hate it when that rapier decloaks and target paint ya all to ****!? I mean like WTF u can't do ****!!!
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.12.31 00:14:00 -
[186]
Originally by: Willl Adama Oh man, don't ya'all just hate it when that rapier decloaks and target paint ya all to ****!? I mean like WTF u can't do ****!!!
That's the funny bit: TP is really the only ewar that doesn't have a counter-module. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Willl Adama
Judicio Sine Misericordia
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Posted - 2010.12.31 00:47:00 -
[187]
Mby that's because TP is **** and doesnt do anything to you in most situations. I will rather have 5 Tps on me than 1 ecm mod.
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TimMc
Brutal Deliverance Extreme Prejudice.
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Posted - 2010.12.31 00:49:00 -
[188]
Originally by: Kai Yuen I really don't care what you consider small gang or blobs. ECM isn't and end all in either situation. In small 5-10 person low sec gangs it's whoever get the EWAR lock first. You bring Arazus and they bring Falcons. Damped falcons don't jam much and falcons inside of close lock range die quickly. Falcons are only at their best sitting at a comfortable 70-80km from the fight, easily far enough away to damp their range. Likewise, jammed Arazus don't damp much. It's just a game of who got the lock first. Same with Curses. Recons have notoriously small cap batteries, so small that they can't even make the warp across 100+ AU systems. Cap empty falcons don't jam much either and a Curse can easily 1 cycle a recon's cap battery out. Again, first to lock. All this pomp about "ZOMG ECM IS UNCOUNTERABLE" is just a load of crap by someone who hasn't really thought it through.
You are clearly an idiot and never used an arazu.
Falcons sit 50-70km away usually. Falcons lock range is 150km. You would need 3 sensor damps to reduce is lock range to point it stopped him jamming away. Sensor Damps also have short optimal, so you will be fighting in rather deep falloff and most likely fail (and be jammed).
(In other news, buff damps.)
Best counter to a hostile falcon is: - Your own falcon - A sensor boosting, eccm, scorch apoc. - Being in docking range so you can dock after the resulting permajam.
Falcons are the bane of sub 10 man gangs. The mechanic needs to be changed to an instantly breaking and instantly allowing to reaquire (similar to ECM burst). Alternatively, make it disable remove effects on ships in range (remote sensor boosting, neuting, remote repair etc. Everything except the guns.)
At least these ways, it is irritating like the other ewar rather than instant lost battle.
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Izuru Hishido
Amarr Lethal Dosage. Violent Society
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Posted - 2010.12.31 02:11:00 -
[189]
Edited by: Izuru Hishido on 31/12/2010 02:16:06
Originally by: saango0 Everyone agrees it's the most powerful (by far) ewar in the game, and it's been ruining small gang PvP for years. It's the only ewar that renders a ship completely useless.
etc etc etc
I think the game would be much better if ECM in all forms was removed and Caldari just got a different type of ewar. ECM completely nullifies any chances a small gang has at fighting outnumbered.
What do you all think?
I think...ECCM is designed to counter ECM fairly damn well. Oh, and there are also modules called 'Remote ECCM' which you and your gangmates can fit to further prevent getting jammed.
ECM functions just fine. Unlike say a sensor dampener or a target painter, there's a precise module you can fit to effectively make you so damn hard to jam that it renders the falcon alt that's sitting out there pointless. When you're jammed, the person jamming you can miss a cycle and then you can lock him up, throw all your drones on him or just blast him a couple times.
With a damp, a painter, a tracking disruptor, no such things happen. When you're damped, you're damped. When you're painted, you turn into a neon spotlight. When you're tracking disrupted, you track with about the same ability as a dreadnought. ECM certainly isn't the 'most powerful form of EWAR,' and no, jamming someone does not 'remove them from combat,' it just makes them a less relevant threat for the time being. The second that jam cycle misses, the falcon dies.
Also, have you ever been damped by twenty people at the same time before? I have, and fyi, its no fun in a sniper apoc with two sensor boosters for range that can't lock outside 10km. So not only do you not have any experience (judging solely from your initial statements) with any of the other EWAR, you're just angry that you forgot to fit an ECCM and got jammed.
OR HERE'S AN IDEA!
If you're in such a small gang, why don't you bring a couple people in falcons as well? Then I'd bet the second you start benefiting from using EWAR, you'll start singing a completely different tune.
Originally by: Willl Adama Mby that's because TP is **** and doesnt do anything to you in most situations. I will rather have 5 Tps on me than 1 ecm mod.
Yes. I'd much rather have my signature radius effectively doubled so that everything in the other gang does their near-maximum damage than be jammed. Being target painted is so much less dangerous than EWAR. I mean, it doesn't make a flight of rage torps hit you for full damage, or several racks of BS guns hit me for their full volley damage, or anything like that by increasing my signature radius. Yep, target painting really doesn't do any good whatsoever. Can't think of one benefit it does for me. "The point of war is not to die for your country, its to make the other bastard die for his." |
oldmanst4r
Minmatar oldmanst4r's Corporation
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Posted - 2010.12.31 02:41:00 -
[190]
Originally by: saango0 Everyone agrees it's the most powerful (by far) ewar in the game, and it's been ruining small gang PvP for years. It's the only ewar that renders a ship completely useless.
If you're flying in a small gang, fitting eccm won't help, ignoring the fact that it cripples most fits as it provides no other benefit than countering ECCM. Modules like sensor boosters and tracking computers give a nice bonus even if you don't see that type of ewar, but if you don't encounter ecm when having eccm fitted then you've effectively wasted a slot.
Also, please don't say it's a force multiplier for small gangs to counter blobs, the blobs simply field more ecm than you and you're screwed anyway. I think the game would be much better if ECM in all forms was removed and Caldari just got a different type of ewar. ECM completely nullifies any chances a small gang has at fighting outnumbered.
What do you all think?
Useful Caldari PvP ships before nerf:
1.Drake 2. Falcon 3. Rook 4. Tengu
Useful Caldari PvP ships after nerf:
1.Drake 2.Tengu
If you buff the cerb, the eagle, and give us some new awesome capability for the rook and falcon and revamp the scorp, then sure remove ecm. Until then FU(K YOU AND THE NOOBSHIP YOU FLEW IN ON!
Originally by: CCP Shadow
*snip* Castration successful. Shadow.
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Luminos
Durid is 4 Fite
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Posted - 2010.12.31 03:41:00 -
[191]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Willl Adama Oh man, don't ya'all just hate it when that rapier decloaks and target paint ya all to ****!? I mean like WTF u can't do ****!!!
That's the funny bit: TP is really the only ewar that doesn't have a counter-module.
As far as the gunnery equation is concerned the Painter performs the same combat role as the Webifier. So technically the counter module to the Target Painter is the Afterburner. ______
I feel as though I could do anything. For example, stab this cheese knife into the Self-Taught Man's eye. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.12.31 03:56:00 -
[192]
Originally by: Luminos As far as the gunnery equation is concerned the Painter performs the same combat role as the Webifier. So technically the counter module to the Target Painter is the Afterburner.
As long as the ship is moving, and we're talking about turrets, yes. If it's not moving and/or we're talking about missiles, no. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Luminos
Durid is 4 Fite
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Posted - 2010.12.31 04:26:00 -
[193]
Fair enough, stopping your ship is a perfectly effective way of negating the bonus of painting as well.
For missle damage, it's still correct if the explosion radius is less than the signature of the ship (assuming of course the missle damage formula I've got is right). If the radius is bigger than your target, then chances are very good the afterburner is many times more effective at negating missle damage than your target painters are at increasing it. ______
I feel as though I could do anything. For example, stab this cheese knife into the Self-Taught Man's eye. |
Noisrevbus
Caldari Breams Gone Wild
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Posted - 2010.12.31 10:47:00 -
[194]
Quote: Oh man, don't ya'all just hate it when that rapier decloaks and target paint ya all to ****!? I mean like WTF u can't do ****!!!
Or maybe the Rapier pilot actually had a clue, and at least put two webs on you next to a TP - at which point many ships should fear the Rapier far more than a Falcon.
This whole thread is quite clueless though, so i guess the argument isn't completely unexpected.
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Willl Adama
Judicio Sine Misericordia
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Posted - 2010.12.31 10:57:00 -
[195]
Originally by: Noisrevbus
Quote: Oh man, don't ya'all just hate it when that rapier decloaks and target paint ya all to ****!? I mean like WTF u can't do ****!!!
Or maybe the Rapier pilot actually had a clue, and at least put two webs on you next to a TP - at which point many ships should fear the Rapier far more than a Falcon.
This whole thread is quite clueless though, so i guess the argument isn't completely unexpected.
No.
Most rapiers DONT have a clue m8. Neither do most falcons, but those work just fine nonetheless. I will rather have 3 competent rapiers decloak on me than 1 incompetent falcon. (I'm solo mostly)
3 rapiers does in no way inspire the same amount of despair that 1 falcon is capable of, even if you fit eccm.
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Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
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Posted - 2010.12.31 11:20:00 -
[196]
OP = fr0gout crying again.
Fit ECCM and stop failing at Eve.
Originally by: Allestin Villimar Also, if your bookmarks are too far out, they can and will ban you for it.
Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive. |
Grimpak
Gallente The Whitehound Corporation Hounds of Anarchy
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Posted - 2010.12.31 12:08:00 -
[197]
Edited by: Grimpak on 31/12/2010 12:08:11
Originally by: Izuru Hishido I think...ECCM is designed to counter ECM fairly damn well. Oh, and there are also modules called 'Remote ECCM' which you and your gangmates can fit to further prevent getting jammed.
remote ECCM is probably the only module that seems a tad meh since it's nice, but it requires someone to lock you, something that is kinda of a drawback because of that same fact.
remote ECCM would be interesting if it was an AoE mod. would need extensive testing and balancing, but being an AoE weapon would benefit a gang quite well. ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.12.31 13:10:00 -
[198]
Originally by: Izuru Hishido ...If you're in such a small gang, why don't you bring a couple people in falcons as well? Then I'd bet the second you start benefiting from using EWAR, you'll start singing a completely different tune.
And that is the problem, the only option one has if not flying BS is "bring your own ECM", hate to say it but that is one tune I am not willing to even hum .. it reeks of flawed game design. Most of what you said is perfectly true for BS gangs/fleets. But ECCM, even remote versions, do very little for smaller ships .. in fact when you hit destroyer/frigate level you can be jammed by ECM mods on any ship not just the dedicated boats.
Originally by: Izuru Hishido ... and no, jamming someone does not 'remove them from combat,' it just makes them a less relevant threat for the time being. The second that jam cycle misses, the falcon dies.
That is from the ECM perspective, from the targets he might as well not be there .. 20 seconds is a lifetime (literally!) in the heat of combat. If I get hit with a TD I'll close in or zero transversal .. I am still shooting stuff. If I am damped I'll close in and either shoot immediately or wait the extra few seconds for lock before opening up. The effects of either of the two is roughly the same regardless of what ship you are flying, a frigate is just as hard hit as a BS .. AND .. both have common and universally beneficial counter modules.
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Icylce
Frost Palace
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Posted - 2010.12.31 14:04:00 -
[199]
Edited by: Icylce on 31/12/2010 14:04:02 I read trough the most of posts in this topic and I have to agree that ecm boats needs some rebalancing. I like the idea of adding the sensor str skill. It shoud'nt add % of strenght tough, that would scale a lot on bs/ recons. Imho it should add set number of sensor str for each hull. For example at lvl 5 it would add 5str to frigates 4 to cruisers 3 to bcs 2 to bs 1 to cap ships. Also other idea I had concerns the recon ships. I think decreasing their base targeting range would be interesting solution to ecm boats too. It would force them to either fit sb to keep their range and thus removing one slot for ewar, or not to fit the module and be more vulnerable to damps.
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Pod Amarr
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Posted - 2010.12.31 16:29:00 -
[200]
Originally by: Willl Adama Mby that's because TP is **** and doesnt do anything to you in most situations. I will rather have 5 Tps on me than 1 ecm mod.
I would not usually that means you are webbed as well from that matari recon, you are primary, And first waves of tons of missiles are landing within 10 seconds.
Or people just target paint for the hell of it?
:D
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Luminos
Durid is 4 Fite
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Posted - 2011.01.01 02:55:00 -
[201]
Originally by: Pod Amarr Or people just target paint for the hell of it?
Basically, yes. ______
I feel as though I could do anything. For example, stab this cheese knife into the Self-Taught Man's eye. |
Marlona Sky
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2011.01.01 09:39:00 -
[202]
Originally by: Mag's Fit ECCM and stop failing at Eve.
Hmmm...
If the OP said he was in a battleship and had problems being alpha'd from a 250 man battleship fleet.
With your mentality you would reply with:
"Fit a 50mm plate and stop failing at Eve."
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Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
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Posted - 2011.01.01 17:31:00 -
[203]
Originally by: Marlona Sky
Originally by: Mag's Fit ECCM and stop failing at Eve.
Hmmm...
If the OP said he was in a battleship and had problems being alpha'd from a 250 man battleship fleet.
With your mentality you would reply with:
"Fit a 50mm plate and stop failing at Eve."
Nah, I'd say 'Looks like a Marlona Sky fit.'
Originally by: Allestin Villimar Also, if your bookmarks are too far out, they can and will ban you for it.
Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive. |
Laechyd Eldgorn
Caldari Certified Household Sweeping Consulting
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Posted - 2011.01.01 19:09:00 -
[204]
If your gang isn't fielding any ewar or logistics you will lose. Especially against larger force.
Pointless to post about ECM when other ewar and logistics are equally powerful. Not to mention you do not even need dedicated ships for many other options.
It might feel better if you can shoot back but it doesn't change situtation anywhere if opposite site is repped up by logistics for example.
imho anyway.
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Lili Lu
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Posted - 2011.01.02 02:13:00 -
[205]
Edited by: Lili Lu on 02/01/2011 02:16:48
Originally by: Laechyd Eldgorn If your gang isn't fielding any ewar or logistics you will lose. Especially against larger force.
Yeah. And that is what those who complain about ecm do? They never field e-war or logistics? Have you read this thread or just the first post and now your own? You are posting a well worn straw man argument.
Originally by: Laechyd Eldgorn Pointless to post about ECM when other ewar and logistics are equally powerful. Not to mention you do not even need dedicated ships for many other options.
They are not equally as powerful. Have you used them all, and on the dedicated ships? I have. And, anyone that has can tell you that preventing a lock is way more powerful than reducing gun range, or targeting range, or increasing signature, alone, or hell let's throw in the secondaries - draining cap, preventing warp, reducing speed. BECAUSE preventing a lock does not allow the other ship to shoot you with guns, shoot you with missiles, neut you, rep his buddies, etc. Preventing a lock removes all threat to you, not just specific threats. JUST SAYING THE OTHER E-WAR IS AS POWERFUL DOES NOT MAKE IT SO. It is a piece of **** argument. You are number 9042 or something to make this inane false declaration. Stop the simplistic statments that defy logic, PLEASE.
Originally by: Laechyd Eldgorn It might feel better if you can shoot back but it doesn't change situtation anywhere if opposite site is repped up by logistics for example.
WTF, of course it feels better if you can take some effective combat action in return. Do you enjoy not being able to lock anything and instead being a completely powerless pixel on the screen? If so you are a better person than I. And what are you bringing up logistics for. Logistics could be there repping the opposite side regardless of the existence of ecm. You are simply mischaracterizing the content of the complaints again so that you can try to make another untrue insinuation that ecm is just like the other e-war. It's not FFS.
ECM can be used to attempt to counter RR, and for that that it should remain in the game. Scan res damping can be and is used for that purpose also. I do not agree with the OP that ECM should be removed from the game. It should however, not be the overpowering mechanic that it currently is to non recon, logi, or BS (those three sub-capital ships do derive some meaningful protection when fitting ECCM).
As I said before itt, ecm specialists have nothing to worry about with your precious I-win ECM boats. CCP appears to be constitutionally incapable of reworking this game mechanic. They've tried it twice at least already and failed. It is still the incredibly imbalanced pita that it ever was. The only decent thing done is that the extreme range was taken away. Whereas it appears to be much easier to nerf to hell webs, damps and nos and then forget about their remaining wretched state.
However, CCP could introduce a few new things to lessen the impact of ECM, which surrently imo is still too strong. A skill for increasing the sensor strength of one's own ship is a glaring ommision in this game. And, having eccm grant a discreet whole number boost to sensor strength might be another (i.e. making it like a mapc, shield extender or plate, instead of having it give a % increase). This might allow smaller ships to not be automatic ecm fodder. Or, introducing a skill that would allow the possibility of gaining one intermittent/temporary "manual" lock while being jammed would be another. These are things that could be done. The OP is proposing a simplistic and unrealistic solution. It would be nice to get rid of the all or nothing compaint as the op makes, as well as the simplistic unsupported counter declarations in return. |
Luminos
Durid is 4 Fite
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Posted - 2011.01.02 05:59:00 -
[206]
That ECM is currently the premier anti-RR module isn't actually an argument to keep it. ECM is a bad mechanic and should be removed. If that leaves a hole in the strategy in which Remote Repping becomes the 'be-all-end-all', then it is an issue to be adressed by implementing a mechanic to counter it which isn't broken. ______
I feel as though I could do anything. For example, stab this cheese knife into the Self-Taught Man's eye. |
TimMc
Brutal Deliverance Extreme Prejudice.
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Posted - 2011.01.02 12:33:00 -
[207]
ECM should just break locks. Allowing for instant relocking. It should always work.
The module should have a 20 second cycle time.
Signal Dispersion skill should be changed from 5% ECM strength per level to a 5% cycle time reduction per level. Max skill results in ECM cycle time as 15 seconds.
SDAs should be changed to increase optimal and falloff of all ewar modules. No strength bonus but useful for all ewar ships, and even normal ships that want to increase scram or disruptor range at cost of a low.
All ECM modules and blueprints should be changed to their new universal type.
ECCM modules should be removed and reimbursed, or reworked as a targeted ewar suppression module. Using the module would increase 50% the cycle time of ewar on its target. Thus increases ECM cycle time to 30 seconds, 22.5 seconds on skilled character. Target painting, sensor dampening and tracking disruption would face a penalty of 50% of their cycle time after the module had finished before they could reactivate.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2011.01.02 14:38:00 -
[208]
Originally by: TimMc ECM should just break locks. Allowing for instant relocking. It should always work....
Been suggested before but the problem with that solution is that it eliminates ECM's survival chances against small fast lockers like Interceptors and even some SeBo Cruiser/BC.
Interesting take on ECCM though.
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Lord Dragonmede
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Posted - 2011.01.02 16:25:00 -
[209]
I try to carry a few re-loads of FoF missiles in the cargo hold. It takes 10 sec to rearm, and FoF missiles require no target lock. If I see an Ewar boat, I just approach as fast as I can, while switching to FoF, and if I die I at least die fighting...
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raukosen
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Posted - 2011.01.02 18:14:00 -
[210]
Edited by: raukosen on 02/01/2011 18:15:19
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: TimMc ECM should just break locks. Allowing for instant relocking. It should always work....
Been suggested before but the problem with that solution is that it eliminates ECM's survival chances against small fast lockers like Interceptors and even some SeBo Cruiser/BC.
Interesting take on ECCM though.
If anything it increases your survival chances. You're 100% guaranteed to break lock, even with multiple people pointing you.
ECM drones would need reworking though, and I don't know about the ECCM...
Also, ECM range? Do you just have a range after which you can't activate the module? Falloff doesn't work if the module operates in a binary way
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