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Baiting: The cancer that is killing solo PVP

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Lady Spank Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2010.12.22 13:07:00 - [31] The problem is people are incompetent at both making isk and at pvp so they have to blob up to save isk, save face and to even get a kill in the first place. The true soloer knows what he is getting into and while this kind of thing is annoying and gets in the way of 'fair fights' most people solo just to beat the odds. There is nothing funnier than killing a bait ship and getting the F out before the incompetent support lands.
Spurty Caldari D00M. Northern Coalition.	Posted - 2010.12.22 13:09:00 - [32] solo pvp died with the invention of warp core stabs. good luck fitting 6 points on your ship now Hoppit!
Merdaneth Amarr Angel Wing.	Posted - 2010.12.22 13:13:00 - [33] Edited by: Merdaneth on 22/12/2010 13:14:01 Baiting isn't the problem at all, people trying to avoid losing ships is the problem. People want to win, that means they will not engage when they think they might lose. Different people prefer different risks, but most people in Rifters won't engage me anymore after I burn em a couple of times, even though they thought they might stand a chance the first couple of times around. That's perfectly sensible behaviour. I believe its a bigger problem that many encounters have predetermined outcomes. Experiences PvPers can usually tell if you give them a hypothetical ship X vs. ship Y situation what the odds of victory are for each ship. In most cases, the outcome will can be easily determined from the outset. This means that PvP for a large part exists in gaining knowledge about predetermined outcomes, and not actual fighting skills, which are secondary. Which in turn means that trying to mislead people about the outcome has become the primary PvP skill. I solo and I bait. I bait mostly through inconvential ship setups. Presenting people with a gank target tends to work like a charm. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Drakarin Gallente Absentia Libertas Solus	Posted - 2010.12.22 13:15:00 - [34] Originally by: Destamon Originally by: FACLON ALT Also, HTFU'ing won't get me more fights. The core problem here is that there are too few people trying to get solo fights in lowsec, because of baiting. Let me put it this way: I'm not complainging about being baited - I am complaining about the effect that baiting is having on the game. I don't get it. You want to play the game on your term - solo. Others want to play the game on their terms. Now you cannot dictate the terms anymore so obviously the game is broken or dying etc etc. Wrong. You should either not take the bait or bring friends. Or keep looking, some opportunity might come along eventually. There is strength in numbers - you put yourself at a disadvantage by flying solo in lowsec and you expect everyone else to do the same and accommodate you. That's just too selfish. If you want solo PVP badly enough, I suggest you join RVB. There's always someone looking for a frig 1v1 there and it's always honored. The problem is I have no fun flying in a group. It presents no challenge and the thrill of the chase and kill is severely diminished due to this. However, flying solo is made near impossible. Not the kind of hard you get hard on, the kind that irritates you. This is still a game. I feel that those that group up are in it to win, not just have some good fun. People take this game too seriously, that is the fundamental problem with it. I play it everyday for hours, but I don't take it seriously... I only play to immerse myself into another universe.
Karn Velora	Posted - 2010.12.22 13:50:00 - [35] Edited by: Karn Velora on 22/12/2010 13:53:35 Originally by: Spurty solo pvp died with the invention of warp core stabs. good luck fitting 6 points on your ship now Well, this of course is only true if your view on "solo pvp" is "ganking industrials". With the huge nerf on stabs, no one is going to fit even 1 on a ship they like to be even remotely combat worthy. If however your mission is kill non-combat ships with multiple stabs... what's the problem? Fit more scrams. It's not like you need a tank or even much dps anyway. Better yet, just increase your firepower to alpha him to the stone age before the ship can get close to warping away. As for 6-stabbed battleships.. they are just moving the ships. Attacking them isn't pvp. It's ganking. If you still want to do it though, enjoy the fact that they have just about no offensive or defensive capabilities at all. Fit the extra scrams, then blast him. Some super-special fits need equally special fits to be countered. 's like them US Marines say: Improvise. Adapt. Overcome.
Diesel47	Posted - 2010.12.22 13:50:00 - [36] The problem is cowards have ventured into the game who only fight in blobs. Most likely carebears who try to pvp.
Karn Velora	Posted - 2010.12.22 13:55:00 - [37] Edited by: Karn Velora on 22/12/2010 13:55:51 Personally I prefer a big clumsy low sec blob over wardeccing nubs in empire, or suicide ganking hulks for ****s and giggles. At least the blob can be scouted, expected, circumvented, and counter-blobbed.
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.12.22 14:00:00 - [38] Originally by: Diesel47 The problem is cowards have ventured into the game who only fight in blobs. Most likely carebears who try to pvp. And I'll just add that "PVPers" that kill industrial and PVE-fit ships aren't cowards at all. They're just smart. Carebears that only fight on their terms, on the other hand, as you say, are cowards. No double standard here at all. Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
Dass Gus	Posted - 2010.12.22 14:02:00 - [39] Imao ZE problem is warp to 0 km instead of the old 15 km default.
Diesel47	Posted - 2010.12.22 14:04:00 - [40] Edited by: Diesel47 on 22/12/2010 14:04:26 Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Originally by: Diesel47 The problem is cowards have ventured into the game who only fight in blobs. Most likely carebears who try to pvp. And I'll just add that "PVPers" that kill industrial and PVE-fit ships aren't cowards at all. They're just smart. Carebears that only fight on their terms, on the other hand, as you say, are cowards. No double standard here at all. Wardeccing industrial and PVE corps is cowardly also, what are you talking about?

Karn Velora	Posted - 2010.12.22 14:06:00 - [41] Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Originally by: Diesel47 The problem is cowards have ventured into the game who only fight in blobs. Most likely carebears who try to pvp. And I'll just add that "PVPers" that kill industrial and PVE-fit ships aren't cowards at all. They're just smart. Carebears that only fight on their terms, on the other hand, as you say, are cowards. No double standard here at all. Lol. :) Personally I "like" the Hulkageddon types who brag about killing carebears, while they sit in high sec under the same CONCORD umbrella, preferably immune to war in an npc corp, suicide ganking industrials. The double standards are thick enough to pad wonder-bras.
Yvella Minmatar	Posted - 2010.12.22 14:12:00 - [42] Learn to love it. Play with the blob, kill the tackle. Lol to yourself and run. Sheild rupture, taranis all offer good bacng for buck and mobility.
Barakkus	Posted - 2010.12.22 14:15:00 - [43] Originally by: Nomad Vherokic It's a terrible situation, I mean, I fly around in my Falcon looking for a fight and everyone runs away, even the blobs... :( not fair! True story, really. That's probably because they assume you're a master baiter and there will be a blob forthcoming. - - [SERVICE] Corp Standings For POS anchoring
TimMc Brutal Deliverance Extreme Prejudice.	Posted - 2010.12.22 14:25:00 - [44] I don't bait in hopes of killing a solo pvper, I bait in hope of getting a smaller gang, or sometimes an equal gang, to engage. People in eve just want to win without loss, so only way they will engage is when they can win easily - so a lone pilot. Baiting with lone pilots and then bringing support sometimes is only way to get a fight. Your only mistake is engaging bait. Only attack things you can kill before support can arrive.
Durnin Stormbrow	Posted - 2010.12.22 14:44:00 - [45] Edited by: Durnin Stormbrow on 22/12/2010 14:44:55 I don't think baiting is the cancer, it's yet another symptom of the cancer: Power Creep. Worse than simple power creep, EvE has seen a continual erosion of the grey area in between 'You can't escape' and 'You can't be caught'. Years ago, a gate camp involved unrigged T1 ships with meta 0-4 fittings trying to catch other T1 ships before they could align & warp or get to the gate & jump. Every gate camp could be beaten, but any gate camp stood a chance to catch you. Over time Cov-ops cloak, Cloak/MWD trick, scram>MWD, simplified probing, long range tackle, warp to 0, bubbles, T3, hot drops, and many more I'm sure, have changed it to 'If you do this, you will be safe, unless they do that. If they do that, you're dead.' Players will obviously push as far to one extreme or the other as the game will allow, that's called playing to win, but that grey area is where the fun is. When you consider the slowly eroding 'fun place' between safe & danger and the continuously declining profits of low-sec & null-sec, is it any surprise that fewer and fewer people find reason go there, or that more and more of the player base is 'risk adverse'?
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.12.22 15:03:00 - [46] Originally by: Diesel47 Edited by: Diesel47 on 22/12/2010 14:04:26 Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Originally by: Diesel47 The problem is cowards have ventured into the game who only fight in blobs. Most likely carebears who try to pvp. And I'll just add that "PVPers" that kill industrial and PVE-fit ships aren't cowards at all. They're just smart. Carebears that only fight on their terms, on the other hand, as you say, are cowards. No double standard here at all. Wardeccing industrial and PVE corps is cowardly also, what are you talking about? What I am talking about is if you're going to throw carebears under the bus for fighting on their own terms then be prepared to throw the OP, and pretty much every pirate and PVPer out there under the bus for doing the exact same thing. The OP is falling into traps by taking bait, which are probably seemingly lone defenseless ships he feels he can take on easily. Where is your criticism for his cowardice? . When a carebear minimizes his risk he's a coward. When a PVPer minimizes risk, well, that is just sound common sense. Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
Jekyl Eraser	Posted - 2010.12.22 15:12:00 - [47] Baiting works because it forces player to fight for a minute. And 'miniblobbing'(wtf is this ) works because you can kill someone in a minute. Solution... allow people to see to the other side of the gate. If they see it and use scanner on the other side they are safe for a minute... unless it's a bait for cloaky gang.
Hakaru Ishiwara Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2010.12.22 15:17:00 - [48] Sweet Baby Jebus. All whine and no cheese with the OP. Go find your own friends and kill the m'bater and his friends. Or check out some of the less-traveled null-sec areas. Or gasp check out W-space where, according to the 2010 Q3 QEN, only 5% of EVE's population resides. And, btw, the more people that either maintain subscriptions or newly subscribe to the game, the more gangs of 1+ there will be blobbing, baiting and otherwise ruining your precious solo PvP. Which is it that you wish? Fewer subscriptions and more solo PvP or a healthy amount of subscriptions and more folks putting ships at risk in-space? If I had an ISK for every time a genius poster made the threat that people are going to leave the game if CCP does not change X game mechanic to suit an individual's needs...
Spaceman Jack	Posted - 2010.12.22 15:25:00 - [49] Let me translate this for you... TACTICS: The cancer that is killing other tactics.
Qarth	Posted - 2010.12.22 15:33:00 - [50] So you are whining about people not letting you kill them solo... Well 1st thing is to realize that a single ship sitting on a gate, is bait. 2nd thing to understand. This is a MMO, so solo play is not really the point, now is it? Adapt or GTFO. You know it's a bait stop being an idiot and failing for it. Work on your social skills, make some friends and counter blob them. So in closing, either adapt to the new environment or HTFU and lose ships and cry about it to yourself.

FACLON ALT	Posted - 2010.12.22 15:49:00 - [51] Originally by: Hakaru Ishiwara Go find your own friends and kill the m'bater and his friends. Riiight, which part of SOLO is so hard to grasp? Quote: Or check out some of the less-traveled null-sec areas. to do what, make bots safespot when I enter their systems? or circumvent lame 0.0 folk sitting on bubbles? Quote: Or gasp check out W-space where, according to the 2010 Q3 QEN, only 5% of EVE's population resides. And spend a week looking for a target? no thanks Quote: the more people that either maintain subscriptions or newly subscribe to the game, the more gangs of 1+ there will be blobbing, baiting and otherwise ruining your precious solo PvP. Which is it that you wish? Fewer subscriptions and more solo PvP or a healthy amount of subscriptions and more folks putting ships at risk in-space? You seem to be under the misconception that low population densities are essential for solo pvp to flourish. Baiting is as popular as is simply because it's the only way to get a fight, partly because lowsec is sparsely populated. If it wasn't the only way to get fights, it wouldn't be so popular, and many more people that want to solo, but don't due to baiting, would be soloing. In other words, higher population densities make it easier to find fights, which makes baiting less 'necessary' to get fights.
FACLON ALT	Posted - 2010.12.22 15:58:00 - [52] Originally by: Qarth This is a MMO, so solo play is not really the point, now is it? I can't believe how often this garbage is repeated. Just because it's an MMO doesn't oblige one to play with other players. If you're trying to win Eve then that's probably what you should do, but some of us just want to have fun, and for some of us that entails playing against other players, as opposed to with them. Quote: You know it's a bait stop being an idiot and failing for it. you mean all of it? or just the ones with massive flickering neon 'BAIT' signs? Quote: Work on your social skills, make some friends and counter blob them. Yes dad, am sorry dad. Quote: So in closing, either adapt to the new environment or HTFU and lose ships and cry about it to yourself. Totally, this is what I'm currently doing, I don't have any other options, apart from leaving the game. Again. But I'm not quite there yet.
Hakaru Ishiwara Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2010.12.22 16:10:00 - [53] Originally by: FACLON ALT Originally by: Hakaru Ishiwara Go find your own friends and kill the m'bater and his friends. Riiight, which part of SOLO is so hard to grasp? Quote: Or check out some of the less-traveled null-sec areas. to do what, make bots safespot when I enter their systems? or circumvent lame 0.0 folk sitting on bubbles? Quote: Or gasp check out W-space where, according to the 2010 Q3 QEN, only 5% of EVE's population resides. And spend a week looking for a target? no thanks Quote: the more people that either maintain subscriptions or newly subscribe to the game, the more gangs of 1+ there will be blobbing, baiting and otherwise ruining your precious solo PvP. Which is it that you wish? Fewer subscriptions and more solo PvP or a healthy amount of subscriptions and more folks putting ships at risk in-space? You seem to be under the misconception that low population densities are essential for solo pvp to flourish. Baiting is as popular as is simply because it's the only way to get a fight, partly because lowsec is sparsely populated. If it wasn't the only way to get fights, it wouldn't be so popular, and many more people that want to solo, but don't due to baiting, would be soloing. In other words, higher population densities make it easier to find fights, which makes baiting less 'necessary' to get fights. I understand your point, but it is both in the nature of people to gather together AND a symptom of a vastly increased subscription rate over time that make groups of PvPers more common. That you are not willing to make the effort to find solo PvP elsewhere when your favored location(s) have folks teaming up against you diminishes your credibility. And while the generalities painted of null-sec are true in some cases, not everybody launches a bubble on a gate or is a insta-warp bot. Additionally, these challenges can be overcome with reasonable effort and thought on your part. Either your ability to change and adapt to other people's behavior is limited or I give you a troll rating of 9/10. Not bad at all, sir.
FACLON ALT	Posted - 2010.12.22 17:16:00 - [54] Originally by: Hakaru Ishiwara That you are not willing to make the effort to find solo PvP elsewhere when your favored location(s) have folks teaming up against you diminishes your credibility. You assume that greater potential for solo PVP exists elsewhere - it doesn't. And if it did, the baiters would be there, because players looking for solo PVP are prime baiter prey. You also assume that I haven't looked elsewhere, which is not the case. Have you personally tried solo PVP in wormhole space? Quote: Either your ability to change and adapt to other people's behavior is limited or... I'm trying. The point I'm making is that game mechanics have made play evolve in a direction that favours baiting. Is this desireable? If things are "working as intended" then I don't have a leg to stand on, but I find it hard to believe that PVP should revolve around baiting and counterbaiting. fake edit: I guess after typing that out, I kinda realise that that is what pvp in eve is about. Baiting and counterbaiting. Multiplayer chess. End of.
Brian Ballsack	Posted - 2010.12.22 17:23:00 - [55] Frogout, the only real cancer is whiners like you.
FACLON ALT	Posted - 2010.12.22 17:35:00 - [56] Originally by: search function Your search - frogout - did not match any documents. No pages were found containing "frogout". I've been away from the game and the forums for a while, and I honestly have no idea who this person that you think I am is. I take it that he wasn't very liked. Which makes me glad that I posted my thoughts with an alt. Good day to you Sir.
Adamantor	Posted - 2010.12.22 17:40:00 - [57] Edited by: Adamantor on 22/12/2010 17:46:52 If you're looking for a solo fight in low-sec, you need to exercise a lot of caution. Look at this from a probability perspective. Most players have multiple accounts. If they're looking for a fight, they're likely using more than one account to have the highest chance of success in that fight. This might be scouts, support ships or just gank ships waiting to escalate the fight (using a bait ship). The chance of running into a single ship without any support whatsoever is very low. You need to expect that. When people go to fight battles, they don't go alone and look for 'fair' fights. My corp flies low-sec roams and we look for pirates to kill. If we flew our entire fleet into systems and waited around for a fight, we'd expose our entire fleet. The result would be red fleets that are smaller than us flee the field or they contact other pirate fleets, gather a fleet large enough to easily destroy our fleet and take us down. These dynamics occur all the time and it's a constant battle of cat and mouse until a fight is initiated. The term 'blob' needs to always be qualified. We're usually less than 10 in number and try to avoid fielding larger fleets as it limits our options and we don't want to blob. We look for good fights, but as you noted, it can be hard finding a fight and we take what pirates we can get. If you have a 4 man fleet, and we jump in on you, of course you're going to say we blobbed, but it's just a matter of the folks we have in our squad at the time. Sometimes, we split the group and reduce the number of ships we move in on smaller (or solo) ships but this is usually to give the opposing fleet an opportunity to escalate us so we can counter escalate them and generate a larger fight.
Megan Maynard Minmatar Out of Order	Posted - 2010.12.22 17:41:00 - [58] Yeah about the only thing you can do anymore is try and use game mechanics to split these cowards up a bit. My personal favorite is to sit on the gate, let them shoot me and send someone thru to "catch" me on the other side. It's really nice to have a juicy target that can't get any help for a minute to yourself. Originally by: F'nog Originally by: Stareatthesun No no no ... Polaris is where CCP keeps the death star that will destroy eve when the servers shut down. Thankfully I've got Interceptors trained to V. S
Trader Gandry	Posted - 2010.12.22 17:42:00 - [59] You identify the issue of more and more use of baitships. However I identify another problem here. Your lack of insight that people don't play this game for other people's enjoyment but for their own. Give me one good reason as why I would risk losing a fight if I have the means to make sure I win it. Honor? Glory? Both meaningless terms when it comes to achieving certain objectives for a group of people. I don't do 1 vs 1 for the simple reason that a fight should cost my opponent and not me. It all boils down to costeffectiveness and that's where it starts. People decreasing the chance they get losses means other people will have to find new ways to hurt those that take precautions.
FACLON ALT	Posted - 2010.12.22 17:49:00 - [60] Originally by: Trader Gandry Give me one good reason as why I would risk losing a fight if I have the means to make sure I win it. Because 'winning' is empty and meaningless if you won because of bait and superior numbers, as opposed to skill. I fail to see what kind of satisfaction people could possibly get from it.



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