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Khyara	Posted - 2011.01.07 20:03:00 - [31] This issue is clearly the problem of the Drake being OP. Nothing more.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2011.01.07 20:06:00 - [32] Originally by: Khyara This issue is clearly the problem of the Drake being OP. Nothing more. I would like to draw your attention to the fact the tool of an OP was basing all this on the performance of a billion isk PVE Tengu. _________________________________ ROCKET STATUS: FIX IN PROGRESS...
NoNah	Posted - 2011.01.07 20:10:00 - [33] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Originally by: Khyara This issue is clearly the problem of the Drake being OP. Nothing more. I would like to draw your attention to the fact the tool of an OP was basing all this on the performance of a billion isk PVE Tengu. Regardless of OP I can agree to some of what he's saying and some of what you just quoted. The Drake is insanely good, not only at long range in blobs, but also short range in solo or small gang conditions. No other BC can match both these strengths, even if especially the cane and the myrm got their specific niches and the harbinger is quite decent overall. If I could only have one type of BC at my disposal, I'd hands down pick the drake. Parrots, commence! Postcount: 10255
Miss Krunk	Posted - 2011.01.07 21:17:00 - [34] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Originally by: Khyara This issue is clearly the problem of the Drake being OP. Nothing more. I would like to draw your attention to the fact the tool of an OP was basing all this on the performance of a billion isk PVE Tengu. That billion isk Tengu was only linked to prove that you could do around 800 DPS with heavy missles and for no other reason. My gripe is with any heavy missile boat and their ability to project DPS. Fact is, for any amount of ISK spent, you can get more DPS at longer range with a Caldari heavy missile boat than with any medium gun boat.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2011.01.07 21:24:00 - [35] Quote: My gripe is with any heavy missile boat and their ability to project DPS. Fact is, for any amount of ISK spent, you can get more DPS at longer range with a Caldari heavy missile boat than with any medium gun boat. Umm, cry more? So you want Minmatar ships to have 80km Artillery guns (without range mods) because that's the one perk that race doesn't have? Learn to use what you've got, because the minnie lineup is probably stronger than it's ever been and certainly enjoys overwhelming advantages over the Caldari gun lineup, most of the Gallente and is at least on par with the Amarr. _________________________________ ROCKET STATUS: FIX IN PROGRESS...
Ultim8Evil Black Serpent Technologies R.A.G.E	Posted - 2011.01.07 21:34:00 - [36] The "omfg" factor of Heavies is in EFT and nowhere else. Once you get a bit of speed up or use a small ship, the incoming damage nose-dives. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nanferr	Posted - 2011.01.07 22:22:00 - [37] Exactly thats why as i said Heavy missiles are fine. IMO, they need to reduce cpu requirement of HM's (or upgrade drake CPU by 10%) Heavy missiles are also too slow. maybe quadruple the flight time, then i might accept removing missile lag. Their drone bay is also small. They need 75m3. They are also too high in sig radius. Shield sig bloom should be offset by being the 140m sigrad BC (making it 235 after LSE and rigs). I also think the alpha isnt enough. I think it needs to have more alpha then artillery at least. I also think a +25% damage to all is better then +25% kinetic damage.
Ultim8Evil Black Serpent Technologies R.A.G.E	Posted - 2011.01.07 22:34:00 - [38] Originally by: Nanferr Exactly thats why as i said Heavy missiles are fine. IMO, they need to reduce cpu requirement of HM's (or upgrade drake CPU by 10%) Heavy missiles are also too slow. maybe quadruple the flight time, then i might accept removing missile lag. Their drone bay is also small. They need 75m3. They are also too high in sig radius. Shield sig bloom should be offset by being the 140m sigrad BC (making it 235 after LSE and rigs). I also think the alpha isnt enough. I think it needs to have more alpha then artillery at least. I also think a +25% damage to all is better then +25% kinetic damage. I can't figure out if this is a stealth "buff the Drake" poast or not? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Logical Chaos Hoover Inc. WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2011.01.08 01:51:00 - [39] Originally by: Ultim8Evil Originally by: Nanferr Exactly thats why as i said Heavy missiles are fine. IMO, they need to reduce cpu requirement of HM's (or upgrade drake CPU by 10%) Heavy missiles are also too slow. maybe quadruple the flight time, then i might accept removing missile lag. Their drone bay is also small. They need 75m3. They are also too high in sig radius. Shield sig bloom should be offset by being the 140m sigrad BC (making it 235 after LSE and rigs). I also think the alpha isnt enough. I think it needs to have more alpha then artillery at least. I also think a +25% damage to all is better then +25% kinetic damage. I can't figure out if this is a stealth "buff the Drake" poast or not? Its a stealth "I am ******ed" post.
McLack	Posted - 2011.01.08 02:15:00 - [40] I skipped a bit of this thread but... Flight time doesnt effect dps as much as you'd think. In missions, you know how many volleys it takes to kill each ship. You should be shooting at your next target before the last has been hit and killed. If its -25km it will hit before the cycle time is up though. So after the initial shot, flight time wont add anything(if you know how many volleys it will take to kill each ship).
Kingslayer2 Gallente Lords of Thunder	Posted - 2011.01.08 03:01:00 - [41] Here is what the most op in the game.Noobs,saying things are op.its a freaking game.this game used to be fun and interesting. now its being run by a bunch of young noobs.its like omg that peanut butter and jelly sandwich that player had destroyed my Bologna sandwich.he is overpowered,he should be nefted....and no you can't have my stuff
Celia Therone	Posted - 2011.01.08 04:27:00 - [42] The tengu damage is high but not ridiculously so. Reloads really cut into your dps a lot. The tengu active tank is a bit overpowered imho, especially compared to the passive/buffer variants.
Pohbis Neo T.E.C.H.	Posted - 2011.01.08 05:36:00 - [43] Edited by: Pohbis on 08/01/2011 05:44:41 No, heavy missiles are not overpowered. They are simply the best choice for the specific thing you're interested in, PvE. Well, acutally cruises with rigs are the best choice, unless you, like you did, combine it with the Tengu. If you wanted alpha, they suck. If you wanted to hit fast targets, they suck. If you wanted to PvP, they suck. And by suck I mean other weapons are better at it. And no, Tengus and Drakes do not need to be fixed. They are PvE ships. It's what they do. In fact, it's what most Caldari missile boats do. And yes, I know they are all the rage in big shield-blobs right now, but that's because buffer > everything else in blobs. EHP has nothing to do with missiles tho. If there was another shield tanker with bonus to resistance out there, that didn't use missiles, it would be the picked over a Drake any day.
Von Kroll Caldari Kroll's Legion	Posted - 2011.01.08 06:48:00 - [44] Originally by: McLack I skipped a bit of this thread but... Flight time doesnt effect dps as much as you'd think. It most certainly does. DPS = damage per second. To do an effective comparison of a gunship and a missile boat, you must consider flight time into the missile DPS. If you consider a Ferox vs. a Drake from a pure firepower standpoint, both facing off at 75km and you start the stopwatch when both of them activate their weapons, the Ferox is doing 200 DPS (approximate number for arguments sake) at 1 second, while the Drake has yet to achieve any DPS. It will take the Drake 13 seconds or so to score the first volley hit. So, at 13 seconds, when the first missile volley hits for 2400 points of damage, the Drake has achieved 184 DPS. In that same amount of time the Ferox has achieved 2600 points of damage over 13 seconds. Now, the second volley of the Drake arrives at 20 seconds into the exchange, so that the Drake has now done 4800 points of damage, or 240 DPS compared to the Ferox's 4000 points of damage. The longer the exchange goes, the higher the Drake's DPS will get, but it will never get to the theoretical DPS shown in EFT, because EFT simply takes the volley damage and divides it by the rate of fire. Now, if the exchange occurs at 10km range, everything changes, as flight time doesn't delay the damage nearly as much, so the DPS at 13 seconds is much higher, but it still won't equal the EFT theoretical damage. This comparison doesn't account for transversal, resistances, maneuvering, etc. but it is made just to show you that EFT is merely a guide--not galactic law. If you have any experience with large sniper fleets, primary's get popped instantly. Drake blob primaries pop when the first volley gets there, a number of seconds after they are fired.
Nanferr	Posted - 2011.01.08 07:16:00 - [45] Except any sane FC can make their drakes shoot secondary. Ultimately, if we take a battle lasting 5 hours, then 5 hours minus 10 seconds of flight time, Drake loses (10/5350)=(1/535)=1/175 of its dps. That means if it has a dps of 500, then its "real dps" is 498 If we take all this minor details into consideration, Myrm should have its DPS QUARTERED as their drones are slower then missiles. Projectiles also needs a dps reduction to factor in bad damage type and falloff. But we are lazy. So its easier to assume a 25% bonused missile ship shoots just as potently as a 25% bonused ROF AC. This way, its easy to see the Battlecruisers, and heavy missiles is balanced (altho i still think missiles needs some buffs, at least double the alpha)
Miss Krunk	Posted - 2011.01.08 09:43:00 - [46] Originally by: Kingslayer2 Here is what the most op in the game.Noobs,saying things are op.its a freaking game.this game used to be fun and interesting. now its being run by a bunch of young noobs.its like omg that peanut butter and jelly sandwich that player had destroyed my Bologna sandwich.he is overpowered,he should be nefted....and no you can't have my stuff I am from 2004 son, what's your start date?
Pod Amarr	Posted - 2011.01.08 10:45:00 - [47] Originally by: Miss Krunk Originally by: Kingslayer2 Here is what the most op in the game.Noobs,saying things are op.its a freaking game.this game used to be fun and interesting. now its being run by a bunch of young noobs.its like omg that peanut butter and jelly sandwich that player had destroyed my Bologna sandwich.he is overpowered,he should be nefted....and no you can't have my stuff I am from 2004 son, what's your start date? Do not mean to pry but that does not mean you are right. If the threads name was a Tengu is bit overpowered than you would have a point. But that is the tengu not the weapon system. There is no other ship that can push out that damage out of a heavy missiles. Drake Cerberus they all have dmg output topping out at 400 dps with missiles on a non comedy setups with 3 BCUS With max skills. Caracal can not touch that even. Then you have the issues with afterburning targets totally messing up the damage application and delayed damgage that causes you to waste salvos in a fleet that needs to be accounted into the DPS applied. There is not a single low or mid slot module that acts like a tracking computer for missiles all you have to do is use rigs [which come with penalties and turrets have those as well] to fine tune your explosion velocity and signature radius. Answer of most folks is: "But But you can not miss like turrets" I could answer "But But I miss a little or more every time since part of my damage does not get applied almost in any real combat situation. On top of it most of the ships that use them have kinetic bonus only which basically nullifies the advantage you might have with selectable damage. Now compare this with capless instant damage selectable damage projectile weapons and tell me which is bit out of line.
Jayme Meladi	Posted - 2011.01.08 11:27:00 - [48] Edited by: Jayme Meladi on 08/01/2011 11:27:59 Originally by: Pod Amarr Originally by: Miss Krunk Originally by: Kingslayer2 Here is what the most op in the game.Noobs,saying things are op.its a freaking game.this game used to be fun and interesting. now its being run by a bunch of young noobs.its like omg that peanut butter and jelly sandwich that player had destroyed my Bologna sandwich.he is overpowered,he should be nefted....and no you can't have my stuff I am from 2004 son, what's your start date? Do not mean to pry but that does not mean you are right. If the threads name was a Tengu is bit overpowered than you would have a point. But that is the tengu not the weapon system. There is no other ship that can push out that damage out of a heavy missiles. Drake Cerberus they all have dmg output topping out at 400 dps with missiles on a non comedy setups with 3 BCUS With max skills. Caracal can not touch that even. Then you have the issues with afterburning targets totally messing up the damage application and delayed damgage that causes you to waste salvos in a fleet that needs to be accounted into the DPS applied. There is not a single low or mid slot module that acts like a tracking computer for missiles all you have to do is use rigs [which come with penalties and turrets have those as well] to fine tune your explosion velocity and signature radius. Answer of most folks is: "But But you can not miss like turrets" I could answer "But But I miss a little or more every time since part of my damage does not get applied almost in any real combat situation. On top of it most of the ships that use them have kinetic bonus only which basically nullifies the advantage you might have with selectable damage. Now compare this with capless instant damage selectable damage projectile weapons and tell me which is bit out of line. Not only are you completely incorrect with the DPS thing but you neglect to mention you know...TARGET PAINTERS or WEBIFIERS or other such things that do indeed help missile damage. I don't know what drake fit you're fielding that only does 400 DPS with max skills but it's a terrible freaking fit. 600 DPS in a Drake is not beyond reason. Then again this forum is widely known for its terrible fitting practices so someone thinking a drake only gets 400 DPS is hardly surprising.
NoNah	Posted - 2011.01.08 11:34:00 - [49] Originally by: pod amarr stuff I want to recall a nigjthawk having roughly 20 dps less than a tengu. Drake is a bit further behind, but shouldn't be that immense difference. As ships are balanced with their intended weapons in mind, and weapons with their ships in mind saying one is terrible while the other is not will never work. That said you'll never be able to have a decent discussion about a ship as infected as the drake - as even this thread has proven - there's to many who are to afraid the only ship they can perform in is going to stop being fotm. In thid case it applies to inexperienced pilots EVERYWHERE, blobs use them in null, small gangs and solopilots use them on low and ininformed carebears use them in highsec aswell as eveywhere else. Parrots, commence! Postcount: 485817
Nanferr	Posted - 2011.01.08 14:40:00 - [50] The tengu can field 850-1100 dps depending on weapon system The drake fields 600-650 depending on weapon system nighthawk has trouble even comparing with drake Tengu is in a whole different league altogether, be it pve or pvp.
Pod Amarr	Posted - 2011.01.08 15:15:00 - [51] Originally by: Nanferr The tengu can field 850-1100 dps depending on weapon system The drake fields 600-650 depending on weapon system nighthawk has trouble even comparing with drake Tengu is in a whole different league altogether, be it pve or pvp. WTB Drake with 600 Heavy missile DPS :D Iam talking base DPS not the overheated plus drones eft theory crafting HAM t2 heavy dmg numbers using faction mods plus 5 % dmg implants numbers people are throwing around here.
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2011.01.08 15:23:00 - [52] Originally by: Pod Amarr ... Dont be noob and throw some officer bcus on it, you will get nice numbers.
Pod Amarr	Posted - 2011.01.08 15:37:00 - [53] Originally by: Jayme Meladi Edited by: Jayme Meladi on 08/01/2011 11:27:59 Originally by: Pod Amarr Originally by: Miss Krunk Originally by: Kingslayer2 Here is what the most op in the game.Noobs,saying things are op.its a freaking game.this game used to be fun and interesting. now its being run by a bunch of young noobs.its like omg that peanut butter and jelly sandwich that player had destroyed my Bologna sandwich.he is overpowered,he should be nefted....and no you can't have my stuff I am from 2004 son, what's your start date? Do not mean to pry but that does not mean you are right. If the threads name was a Tengu is bit overpowered than you would have a point. But that is the tengu not the weapon system. There is no other ship that can push out that damage out of a heavy missiles. Drake Cerberus they all have dmg output topping out at 400 dps with missiles on a non comedy setups with 3 BCUS With max skills. Caracal can not touch that even. Then you have the issues with afterburning targets totally messing up the damage application and delayed damgage that causes you to waste salvos in a fleet that needs to be accounted into the DPS applied. There is not a single low or mid slot module that acts like a tracking computer for missiles all you have to do is use rigs [which come with penalties and turrets have those as well] to fine tune your explosion velocity and signature radius. Answer of most folks is: "But But you can not miss like turrets" I could answer "But But I miss a little or more every time since part of my damage does not get applied almost in any real combat situation. On top of it most of the ships that use them have kinetic bonus only which basically nullifies the advantage you might have with selectable damage. Now compare this with capless instant damage selectable damage projectile weapons and tell me which is bit out of line. Not only are you completely incorrect with the DPS thing but you neglect to mention you know...TARGET PAINTERS or WEBIFIERS or other such things that do indeed help missile damage. I don't know what drake fit you're fielding that only does 400 DPS with max skills but it's a terrible freaking fit. 600 DPS in a Drake is not beyond reason. Then again this forum is widely known for its terrible fitting practices so someone thinking a drake only gets 400 DPS is hardly surprising. Base All lvl5 character missile dmg of a drake with heavy missiles with t2 mods please enlighten me with one that gets over 600 dps. You have to have some even comparison base not plus 5% imp everything overheated numbers which still do not account for enemy movement drone. Webs and painter benefit the turrets same way as they benefit missiles so I do not see a point to even drag them into the discussion. [Same way they benefit both weapon systems] I frankly forgot about the nighthawk and that one can get similar numbers then then The Tengu with faction bcus and drone damage included.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2011.01.08 16:02:00 - [54] Quote: The drake fields 600-650 with HAMs Fixed. I'm so sick of people posting grossly exaggerated DPS figures that were obviously taken from HAMs, not heavies. _________________________________ ROCKET STATUS: FIX IN PROGRESS...
Ranka Mei Caldari	Posted - 2011.01.08 16:45:00 - [55] Originally by: Pod Amarr If the threads name was a Tengu is bit overpowered than you would have a point. But that is the tengu not the weapon system. There is no other ship that can push out that damage out of a heavy missiles. Drake Cerberus they all have dmg output topping out at 400 dps with missiles on a non comedy setups with 3 BCUS With max skills. That's because Tengu has no viable drone bay: it all needs to come from the kinetic heavies. You basically sacrifice the (rather pathetic) 'rifling' drone subsystem for extra DPS. It's a strategic cruiser: you have the option. :) --
Corporal Punishment08 NosWaffle Nostradamus Effect	Posted - 2011.01.08 19:22:00 - [56] Originally by: Von Kroll Originally by: McLack I skipped a bit of this thread but... Flight time doesnt effect dps as much as you'd think. It most certainly does. DPS = damage per second. To do an effective comparison of a gunship and a missile boat, you must consider flight time into the missile DPS. If you consider a Ferox vs. a Drake from a pure firepower standpoint, both facing off at 75km and you start the stopwatch when both of them activate their weapons, the Ferox is doing 200 DPS (approximate number for arguments sake) at 1 second, while the Drake has yet to achieve any DPS. It will take the Drake 13 seconds or so to score the first volley hit. So, at 13 seconds, when the first missile volley hits for 2400 points of damage, the Drake has achieved 184 DPS. In that same amount of time the Ferox has achieved 2600 points of damage over 13 seconds. Now, the second volley of the Drake arrives at 20 seconds into the exchange, so that the Drake has now done 4800 points of damage, or 240 DPS compared to the Ferox's 4000 points of damage. The longer the exchange goes, the higher the Drake's DPS will get, but it will never get to the theoretical DPS shown in EFT, because EFT simply takes the volley damage and divides it by the rate of fire. Now, if the exchange occurs at 10km range, everything changes, as flight time doesn't delay the damage nearly as much, so the DPS at 13 seconds is much higher, but it still won't equal the EFT theoretical damage. This comparison doesn't account for transversal, resistances, maneuvering, etc. but it is made just to show you that EFT is merely a guide--not galactic law. If you have any experience with large sniper fleets, primary's get popped instantly. Drake blob primaries pop when the first volley gets there, a number of seconds after they are fired. You must not have read all of McLack's post. I bolded the important part for you. Originally by: McLack I skipped a bit of this thread but... Flight time doesnt effect dps as much as you'd think. In missions, you know how many volleys it takes to kill each ship. You should be shooting at your next target before the last has been hit and killed. If its -25km it will hit before the cycle time is up though. So after the initial shot, flight time wont add anything(if you know how many volleys it will take to kill each ship). Once the first volley hits, the theoretical DPS from EFT becomes a reality, if you start measuring DPS from the time the first volley hits. Of course, who does that except EFT and it's warriors? :P
Eva Valeer	Posted - 2011.01.08 19:47:00 - [57] lol go ahead and get missiles nerfed It will just bring the inevitable hybrid buff/minmatar nerf that much closer
Kingslayer2 Gallente Lords of Thunder	Posted - 2011.01.08 22:21:00 - [58] 2004 and yes you can check me out on eveboard if you think im lying
Nanferr	Posted - 2011.01.09 02:26:00 - [59] Originally by: Pod Amarr Originally by: Nanferr The tengu can field 850-1100 dps depending on weapon system The drake fields 600-650 depending on weapon system nighthawk has trouble even comparing with drake Tengu is in a whole different league altogether, be it pve or pvp. WTB Drake with 600 Heavy missile DPS :D Iam talking base DPS not the overheated plus drones eft theory crafting HAM t2 heavy dmg numbers using faction mods plus 5 % dmg implants numbers people are throwing around here. Explain why i should compare a tengu with a droneless drake and droneless nighthawk. a typical fleet fit drake can hit almost 600 dps with drones.
Gligan	Posted - 2011.01.09 02:47:00 - [60] Edited by: Gligan on 09/01/2011 02:53:03 They should give missiles ballistic range, just like a gun's falloff range the ballistic range is the range past the missile's effective engine burn. However just because the engine's burned out doesn't mean the warhead's stopped moving. it keeps moving using it's inertia and if it happens to hit the target it should explode and do some damage edit P.S. also ffs how hard is it to calculate the potential missile range and to show it on the tactical overview when I hover my mouse over the launcher. I do understand that if the missile is chasing the target it will not go the full 80 kms but I wanna know what the range is at straight line flight. P.P.S. And please put in a rig for reducing the cpu of a missile launcher - all the other guns have it(well except the projectiles and they're op as it is)

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