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What are Loki's good for?

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Beatrix Trafficante	Posted - 2011.01.12 23:55:00 - [1] Basically, I am looking for a reason to train Loki instead of spending a little more time and training Tengu. I do mostly missioning but am looking to expand my horizons, perhaps wormholes, exploration or something I don't know. Where does the Loki excel and perhaps exceed a Tengu?
Anubis Xian Word Bearers of Chaos	Posted - 2011.01.13 00:04:00 - [2] PvP, Armor tanking, and being able to be a minityphoon. Well and being able to slaughter frigates. Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal. CINA
Dr Fighter	Posted - 2011.01.13 00:04:00 - [3] tengu gets all the priase as it can solo the hardest pve, but when against more of the medium ships and frigs it can overtake the tengu. For pve BS slug fests if you dont mind killing a little slower than a tengu you can fit 25k web, ab and armor reppers fit to the loki and do pretty well thanks do a high speed and with a relitivly tiny sig (compared to a shield rigged tengu).
ShahFluffers Ice Fire Warriors	Posted - 2011.01.13 00:35:00 - [4] Originally by: Dr Fighter For pve BS slug fests if you dont mind killing a little slower than a tengu you can fit 25k web, ab and armor reppers (or 2 plates for pvp) fit to the loki and do pretty well thanks do a high speed and with a relitivly tiny sig (compared to a shield rigged tengu). The Loki can also be fit to be a slightly slower Vagabond with a meatier tank and a fair bit of DPS. _______________________ "Just because I seem like an idiot doesn't mean I am one." ~Unknown
Beatrix Trafficante	Posted - 2011.01.13 00:47:00 - [5] So, it's primary advantages are in PvP?
Mavnas	Posted - 2011.01.13 01:45:00 - [6] Loki sig radius can be shrunk down to that of a slightly oversized frigate with a second boosting Loki and implants.
Zemog Osan	Posted - 2011.01.13 01:56:00 - [7] Sounds like it, caldari have seem to have the edge in pvm I've noticed.
Target Painter Minmatar	Posted - 2011.01.13 08:37:00 - [8] Originally by: Beatrix Trafficante So, it's primary advantages are in PvP? Yes. The Tengu is indisputably better at PvE. Missiles in general outperform turrets, you can get a much sturdier tank without having to worry about mitigation (sig/speed is the Loki's main tank) and it's stats are outright OP. Originally by: Mavnas Loki sig radius can be shrunk down to that of a slightly oversized frigate with a second boosting Loki and implants. Yep. I have a set of low-grade Halos and my sig radius (once I pop a booster) sits around 56m, with roughly 70K EHP. It is probably the OP tank in the game, but since it doesn't give a big number in terms of EHP, it's underrated.
Captain Pompous Is Right Even When He's Wrong So Deal With It	Posted - 2011.01.13 09:36:00 - [9] Errant apostrophes. --- ☻♥ Problem? Therapy sessions ♥☻
Yves Nat Minmatar	Posted - 2011.01.13 15:43:00 - [10] I'm using my Loki in L4s and in DED 5 plexes - not what I originally intended or expected - and it has been awesome. I normally use a Machariel in L4s, but the Loki is as good in different ways; less DPS certainly, but still comparable to my Cynabal, and amazing tank. I shield tank it, with a Medium Booster II, Boost Amp II and 2xInvul Field II. I perma run my tank and it has never dipped below 90%. It's been criticized for being weak in PVE, but my experience is the opposite. ----------- I travel the spaceways, from planet to planet . . . and find stuff.
Sig Sour	Posted - 2011.01.13 19:16:00 - [11] You can get near OP Tengu stats out of a arty Loki. I suppose the advantage is it uses less ammo and has drones. Disadvantage is it shorter range and uses drones.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.01.13 19:25:00 - [12] àit also murders Sansha. Well, perhaps not the Incursion kind, but the old ones are screwed if you ever get close to them. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
eek amouse	Posted - 2011.01.13 20:41:00 - [13] the only thing holding back the loki from being the 'top' pve ship is it's weapon type. i have and use an active shield tanked setup that kills frigs and destroyers with autocannons from 40+, tanks just like a tengu, but you still have to be more involved flying it than if you were using a tengu and people seem to dislike having to actually pilot their ship. but once you have the frigs down and all the rats balled up in the 30km range, you can be just as lazy as when using a tengu. and then on the pvp side it's just so much better and more versatile.
Target Painter Minmatar	Posted - 2011.01.14 04:43:00 - [14] No one said the Loki was outright bad at PvE, just that that the Tengu is so much better in 90% of the situations.
AristotleOnassis	Posted - 2011.01.14 08:32:00 - [15] Quote: Yep. I have a set of low-grade Halos and my sig radius (once I pop a booster) sits around 56m, with roughly 70K EHP. It is probably the OP tank in the game, but since it doesn't give a big number in terms of EHP, it's underrated. The tengu can field only 110m sig rad, while having 50k ehp and a 1.4k dps tank with your "booster", at the same time move 3km/s , some 500 dps, and still fit a cap booster, a prop mod, a web, a scram. even more insane when you add boosters
Elaine Curie	Posted - 2011.01.14 09:13:00 - [16] Originally by: eek amouse the only thing holding back the loki from being the 'top' pve ship is it's weapon type. i have and use an active shield tanked setup that kills frigs and destroyers with autocannons from 40+, tanks just like a tengu, but you still have to be more involved flying it than if you were using a tengu and people seem to dislike having to actually pilot their ship. but once you have the frigs down and all the rats balled up in the 30km range, you can be just as lazy as when using a tengu. and then on the pvp side it's just so much better and more versatile. What are the stats on this level 4 Loki fit? I haven't really looked at a Loki, but the best level 4 gun boat Strategic Cruiser fit I've found is a Legion doing 576 dps at 40km and 806 dps at 12km.
Target Painter Minmatar	Posted - 2011.01.14 09:42:00 - [17] Originally by: AristotleOnassis The tengu can field only 110m sig rad, while having 50k ehp and a 1.4k dps tank with your "booster", at the same time move 3km/s , some 500 dps, and still fit a cap booster, a prop mod, a web, a scram. even more insane when you add boosters When I said booster, did you think I meant shield booster, fleet booster, cap booster or drug booster? Against a 56m sig radius, mediums turrets have tracking issues at their normal fighting ranges and missiles hit for minuscule amounts. 1.4K DPS is a nice number, but it can be neuted off. Sig radius can be blown up by TPs, but how many ships carry TPs in small gangs? Compared to neuts, TPs are rare as hen's teeth.
eek amouse	Posted - 2011.01.14 10:15:00 - [18] Originally by: Elaine Curie Originally by: eek amouse the only thing holding back the loki from being the 'top' pve ship is it's weapon type. i have and use an active shield tanked setup that kills frigs and destroyers with autocannons from 40+, tanks just like a tengu, but you still have to be more involved flying it than if you were using a tengu and people seem to dislike having to actually pilot their ship. but once you have the frigs down and all the rats balled up in the 30km range, you can be just as lazy as when using a tengu. and then on the pvp side it's just so much better and more versatile. What are the stats on this level 4 Loki fit? I haven't really looked at a Loki, but the best level 4 gun boat Strategic Cruiser fit I've found is a Legion doing 576 dps at 40km and 806 dps at 12km. http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/46664-Loki-High-sec-mission-exploration.html basically like this, with tactical targeting network instead.
Cataca	Posted - 2011.01.14 12:01:00 - [19] Originally by: eek amouse Originally by: Elaine Curie Originally by: eek amouse the only thing holding back the loki from being the 'top' pve ship is it's weapon type. i have and use an active shield tanked setup that kills frigs and destroyers with autocannons from 40+, tanks just like a tengu, but you still have to be more involved flying it than if you were using a tengu and people seem to dislike having to actually pilot their ship. but once you have the frigs down and all the rats balled up in the 30km range, you can be just as lazy as when using a tengu. and then on the pvp side it's just so much better and more versatile. What are the stats on this level 4 Loki fit? I haven't really looked at a Loki, but the best level 4 gun boat Strategic Cruiser fit I've found is a Legion doing 576 dps at 40km and 806 dps at 12km. Fit basically like this, with tactical targeting network instead.
Elaine Curie	Posted - 2011.01.14 13:55:00 - [20] As was mentioned before in this thread, the problem with the Loki (for PvE) is the guns. Arty don't have enough dps, autocannons have more dps but rely on falloff. Autocannons are also a high rof / low alpha weapon, making the use of faction ammo less efficient. The two things that affect a turrets ability to apply damage are tracking and falloff. If you have a high optimal range you can just fire from optimal and mitigate most of the tracking loss. If you have low optimal but high falloff you can't do this. Get too close and you will be losing a large portion of your damage to tracking issues, go too far away and you will be losing to falloff. The only way for autocannons to do close to their paper dps is to get close and try to reduce transversal. This will mean you will not be speed tanking as much though, and to do this you might need to fit more tank, leaving less room for offensive modules. For PvE, I would rank the Strategic Cruisers: Tengu > Legion >>> Proteus (rail / sentry) > Loki The gap between the Tengu and Legion depends on which rats they are fighting. For example, there is not much of a performance gap when they are both fighting Sansha, but a huge difference vs Guristas.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.01.14 14:01:00 - [21] Edited by: Tippia on 14/01/2011 14:02:43 Originally by: Elaine Curie For PvE, I would rank the Strategic Cruisers: Tengu > Legion >>> Proteus (rail / sentry) > Loki I don't know. I'd probably put the Proteus and Loki on the same level. Hell, I'd maybe even argue (using admittedly screwy logic) that the Loki is a bit better because the Proteus is outdone by a measly HAC (Ishtar), whereas to outdo the Loki, you have to go for a Command Ship (Sleip), and since CS is a "higher tier" ship than HAC to beat, the Loki is slightly better than the Proteus. Then again, the Sentry Proteus is probably a better exploration ship than the Loki since it can actually carry its main weapons without losing slots to all the crap you need to handle all kinds of exploration sites, so it all evens out in the end. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Mutant Caldari Caldari Percussive Diplomacy	Posted - 2011.01.14 14:06:00 - [22] AFK boosting in a SS while being unprobable Yeah I am a pirate. What are you gonna do about it? Killboard link is not allowed to be used in a signature.Applebabe
Elaine Curie	Posted - 2011.01.14 15:11:00 - [23] Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 14/01/2011 14:02:43 Originally by: Elaine Curie For PvE, I would rank the Strategic Cruisers: Tengu > Legion >>> Proteus (rail / sentry) > Loki I don't know. I'd probably put the Proteus and Loki on the same level. Hell, I'd maybe even argue (using admittedly screwy logic) that the Loki is a bit better because the Proteus is outdone by a measly HAC (Ishtar), whereas to outdo the Loki, you have to go for a Command Ship (Sleip), and since CS is a "higher tier" ship than HAC to beat, the Loki is slightly better than the Proteus. Then again, the Sentry Proteus is probably a better exploration ship than the Loki since it can actually carry its main weapons without losing slots to all the crap you need to handle all kinds of exploration sites, so it all evens out in the end. I wasn't sure which way round to put the Proteus and Loki either. I left it like this because the Proteus can project most of its dps further than the Loki can. Personally, I hate using drones as a main damage source for PvE, so I would not consider using a Proteus.
eek amouse	Posted - 2011.01.14 16:54:00 - [24] Edited by: eek amouse on 14/01/2011 16:57:09 Originally by: Elaine Curie As was mentioned before in this thread, the problem with the Loki (for PvE) is the guns. Arty don't have enough dps, autocannons have more dps but rely on falloff. Autocannons are also a high rof / low alpha weapon, making the use of faction ammo less efficient. The two things that affect a turrets ability to apply damage are tracking and falloff. If you have a high optimal range you can just fire from optimal and mitigate most of the tracking loss. If you have low optimal but high falloff you can't do this. Get too close and you will be losing a large portion of your damage to tracking issues, go too far away and you will be losing to falloff. The only way for autocannons to do close to their paper dps is to get close and try to reduce transversal. This will mean you will not be speed tanking as much though, and to do this you might need to fit more tank, leaving less room for offensive modules. For PvE, I would rank the Strategic Cruisers: Tengu > Legion >>> Proteus (rail / sentry) > Loki The gap between the Tengu and Legion depends on which rats they are fighting. For example, there is not much of a performance gap when they are both fighting Sansha, but a huge difference vs Guristas. sounds like you've never used it and you're just speculating based on some very general knowledge of autos. as i said the only things that need good tracking are frigs and they are killable from 40-50km. if they're between 10-30km, they pop instantly. kill them while approaching the rest of the rats and all that's left is ships with big sig radius and tracking isn't an issue.
Elaine Curie	Posted - 2011.01.14 19:10:00 - [25] Originally by: eek amouse Edited by: eek amouse on 14/01/2011 16:57:09 sounds like you've never used it and you're just speculating based on some very general knowledge of autos. as i said the only things that need good tracking are frigs and they are killable from 40-50km. if they're between 10-30km, they pop instantly. kill them while approaching the rest of the rats and all that's left is ships with big sig radius and tracking isn't an issue. I started with Minmatar. My first ratting was with a t1 fitted Hurricane in Immensea, after I got my skills up I used to rat in a pvp fit Vagabond (in other regions). I have a fair bit of experience shooting rats with medium sized autocannons. When I was ratting in a Vagabond I quickly realised that the falloff rules meant that I should be close to the battleship sized rats. I assumed I would be able to track them fine and would orbit them at my optimal range, thinking that was the best range to damage them from. After some time doing this, I noticed that the damage numbers I was seeing didn't differ that much from what I was doing from range, so I spent some time experimenting with different range orbits. I found that orbiting at around 5km gave the best damage. Then I discovered the 'naughtyboy' spreadsheet. With this you could enter the various details of a ship, number of damage mods, etc and details of a target, size, transversal, etc and it would give you a nice chart of damage / range. This confirmed the earlier experiments. I've just thrown a Loki fit together in EFT and had a look at the numbers for it. The guns had 2km optimal and 33km falloff. According to the calculations, when orbiting a battleship (400 sig) at ~600m/s your ideal orbit range is around 7km and you do 90%+ of your dps from 3.5km - 13km. At your optimal range you do 2/3 of your paper dps. Remember, this is against a battleship. Against cruisers the ideal range will be further out, assuming the same transversal. My point is you should consider tracking regardless of your target and think about how fast you orbit (assuming you're orbinting to speed tank) and how far away, and this is a lot less straightforward with autocannons than other weapons.
eek amouse	Posted - 2011.01.14 19:57:00 - [26] Edited by: eek amouse on 14/01/2011 19:59:02 yes, you have to think a little more and that's why i said the tengu is the preferred pve. it's the most brainless to fly. i've pretty much streamlined my operation from my own trial and error. once all the frigs are down, i start to get closer to the BS rats, while taking out cruiser and battle cruisers along the way. anything that size within 25-30km goes down within a few vollies no matter what i'm doing, but with BS, i orbit with the AB off at 5k or even use 'keep at range', just beyond optimal. you don't need AB speed to tank them. yes, i have to travel to get the BS, but i'm killing all the other stuff from further out along the way. dps is lower on paper, but being able to choose your damage type and hit the rats weak resist at all times helps there.
OT Smithers	Posted - 2011.01.14 20:55:00 - [27] At best a Loki is getting what? Maybe 400 to 500 DPS on paper? How in the hell are you gonna take out rat BS's with that? Or do you just spend 20 minutes per rat?
Jim Tudeski	Posted - 2011.01.14 21:15:00 - [28] Originally by: OT Smithers At best a Loki is getting what? Maybe 400 to 500 DPS on paper? How in the hell are you gonna take out rat BS's with that? Or do you just spend 20 minutes per rat? ....Please tell me you are trolling because you really can't be that stupid.
eek amouse	Posted - 2011.01.14 21:17:00 - [29] nope.
Target Painter Minmatar	Posted - 2011.01.14 21:39:00 - [30] Originally by: OT Smithers At best a Loki is getting what? Maybe 400 to 500 DPS on paper? How in the hell are you gonna take out rat BS's with that? Or do you just spend 20 minutes per rat? Seriously?

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