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Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari
Sane Industries Inc.
Initiative Mercenaries
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Posted - 2011.01.20 07:06:00 -
[91]
 Originally by: Chelone
But it WAS better. Now it is WORSE. Therefore, waiting isn't the answer. Screaming and screaming and screaming about it is, because the devs NEVER listen until the screaming reaches a certain threshold. People screamed about it on test server and not a single issue was addressed. The sad, sad state of operations at CCP.
Waiting _IS_ the answer; the bot makers will be sure to make something work even though it's going require much effort. Just have patience.
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Ranja Jeemana
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Posted - 2011.01.20 07:31:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Doctor Steinsbrow
if you're playing eve for PI, you're doing it wrong
Yeah? Tell that to the guy who's producing your T2 ships and parts and doing the massive amount of R&D on the blueprints to make the game run, because PI is almost certainly what is fueling his POS towers and labs, and providing the materials he needs to craft the ships you keep getting blown-up, ****-jockey.
Oh yeah, that guy is me, hi there. I depended on PI to make all of those things work, the change in PI has increased the cost in time to do PI effectively while reducing the output and requiring more time hauling and being present at your PI worlds to be efficient. PI was already a joke as far as profit and real utility - now it's just a sad joke.
The only ones not *****ing right now are the ones who were already bending over and doing the P0 -> P2 manufacturing planet hauls and getting ****d for 3 Launchpad charges per P2/P3 item made. Higher yield, but made a deeper cut into your personal time and profits. Now the lazy way of getting just enough to feed a couple of POS towers is removed, along with the ability to play the PI game how you want to.
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Steve Thomas
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.01.20 07:41:00 -
[93]
The Irony is, if they had decided to not release PI way back in the state it was back then and simply waited untill now to release it. . . odds are noone would have said a blooming thing about any of this.
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Chelone
Junkyard Gunners
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Posted - 2011.01.20 07:51:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Steve Thomas
The Irony is, if they had decided to not release PI way back in the state it was back then and simply waited untill now to release it. . . odds are noone would have said a blooming thing about any of this.
The people using the materials (POS runners) certainly would have. Judging from the complaints, less people will be doing PI now than before. And I'm not talking about just the forced shift away from single-planet P2's, I'm talking about the ridiculously frequent depletion. Where's the realism in mining out an entire area in a day?
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Steve Thomas
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.01.20 07:59:00 -
[95]
(sigh) I said it before I will say it again one last time
this was all known ON SISI for the past month.
while we did not know what the final result would be, we did know that there would be an impact.
we have given them feedback and even in a few cases some extended spreadsheets based on what we saw happening on Sisi.
The reality that people like you Decided to simply run head long into the low hanging spiked brick wall they built and that, well, frankly, was totaly inexcusable on your part. were now bascialy stuck with this untill the good Profesor of economics can sit down with what they now consider real numbers and figure out what the heck they should do from here.
in the mean time, belive it or not the impresion I got was that they actualy feel that they were being TOO GENEROUS with the numbers for depletion and polution.
Go figure, the developers are barking insain.
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Chelone
Junkyard Gunners
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Posted - 2011.01.20 08:09:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Steve Thomas
(sigh) I said it before I will say it again one last time
this was all known ON SISI for the past month.
And people complained and CCP did nothing to address their complaints. As always. Thus here we are.
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Meladas
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Posted - 2011.01.20 09:19:00 -
[97]
Edited by: Meladas on 20/01/2011 09:22:55
Edited by: Meladas on 20/01/2011 09:21:02
Originally by: Steve Thomas
this was all known ON SISI for the past month.
The thing is, you couldn't really trust some of the results gathered on sisi.
Simple example: I was able to build hi-sec planets able to produce up to 4 times (yes 4 times!) the output that was possible on tranq at that time. Even after a week worth of harvesting it was still significant better than tranq rates.
Why you ask? Because the ressource distribution on sisi is different than on tranq and some planets seem to have insane high ressource counts. I guess part of it may be the lack of "competition" too.
Even now on tranq i get mixed results. Most planets produce less than before (after the first one or two programms finished). But the odd planet here and there actually produces more (probably only till the next programm is over though), because the decline is less steep.
The main drawback for me is the heat-map. Before it was only utterly wrong in a lot cases (producing 20 % more in a non white spot anyone?), but it didn't matter once you had your extractors placed. Now it is completly worthless when you start extracting (Because at least for me it seems to be static, even though the underlying ressource distribution changed). Randomly moving heads and starting/stopping programs (without submitting the changes) till it gets better is no fun.
Sidenote: Did anyone else note a peak increase in gpu power required to render the planet view? |
Arcitect
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Posted - 2011.01.20 09:20:00 -
[98]
Hummm according to what I read, prices of PI stuff will go up... GREAT!! 
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Thoedoric
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Posted - 2011.01.20 10:42:00 -
[99]
It took a few hours to tinker with it and figure it out, but with the new system in place I am seeing almost a 27% increase to my production/profit margins.
May still be a little early to blow the all is clear whistle, but im sure in the next week or two I will have some more historical data to work with. If the only thing I have to worry about is the hot spots moving around that I can adjust to.
My fear is can we bleed the planet dry?
If so, what are the stats on that based on how many players have a operations set up per planet?
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Bitchslaping Biatch
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Posted - 2011.01.20 11:35:00 -
[100]
Lets stop doing PI for good. When the stock runs dry we are going to see some answer. I already did stop doing it.
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Barry Ze'Choppa
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Posted - 2011.01.20 11:43:00 -
[101]
I never realised how many PI users were actually out there until this patch.
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Brutal Concussion
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Posted - 2011.01.20 12:31:00 -
[102]
I've waited a little while before making a post, it being my first one on the forums and whatnot. I pretty much lurked and gathered what I could from other people's posts, determining how to best redo my setups and such. I just started making PI alts so that I could afford to plex and alt account and still have some cash left over.
First I'd like to say a few things about what I like from the new PI system:
I think the new extractor system is great. Takes far less time to do and with a lot less clicking. Sometimes I need to move a head or two around to find a good sweet spot but that isn't bad.
I like the dynamic resources. Simply setting up my PI systems and them never needing to change is kinda boring.
I like that I can stop programs when I need to without destroying 450k or so of equipment to do so. Sometimes I have things to do and can't be at the keyboard for restart. The ability to restart whenever is nice.
On the other hand, some of the cons are pretty heavy:
I am making less P0 than before, period. My planets were specialized to extract one type of P0 and converted into P1 and then exported to a factory planet for P2 production. I ran mostly on 5 hour cycles. On planets where I could easily make 700-800m3 per hour in P0, I now only make 600-700m3, or on some of the less gifted planets, I struggle to make 500-550m3. This is ok on some of my planets, because on one character there were limiting factors than only needed me to run 7 BIFs per planet. I can still make decent buffer on 5 hour cycles. The less endowed planets, with which there aren't many other good competitors ( I searched out most of my local region), I barely make half of what I did before. On two planets it was impossible to keep production going and I had to rebuild the colonies altogether, and I had to reduce the BIF number, cutting my profits by 12% on two characters ( This one, and the one that will be putting down command centers tomorrow). I may need to cut them down a bit more soon if things don't play out well with the resource distribution. Meanwhile everyone I know that operates on 24 hour cycles have increased production. I've lost 12-25% profits on two characters, spent around 10-15m on new facilities, and will soon loose 30m while I build buffer that was lost learning this. ( I understand this is irrelevant to the system at large, but I wanted to rant. )
The resource depletion is kinda crazy guys. Perfectly suitable hotspots are now worthless because they were isolated. Now the only option is plopping down on large patches of resources that everyone will want, while previously it was possible to set up shop on a small portion of a planet and still do really well.
Planetology and (A) Planetology actually have a use now ( kinda a complaint) . I like making things useful but at the same time these skills were kinda meh before. Good for picking out hotspots but not worth investing real time in. Even though I didn't go into them like some people did, the estimated production variation from actual production in some cases is crazy.
To summarize: Great presentation, the system is very intuitive, good job overall.
All I really hate is that On shorter 5 hour cycles it seems like I have an overall production loss, while people on longer cycles got a boost, and longer cycles doesn't make up for it because I still have to run 5 hour cycles a lot to keep up with previous production. I don't like the resource distribution too much either as moving your facilities continuously is financially impractical.
In all I will live to grow old; and I will still make decent enough money. ( Inflation of prices might actually increase profit. Losses are based on old numbers)
P.S. For those wondering, I do most of my PI in 0.1-0.2 sec space.
/ inb4 TL;DR
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Loraine Gess
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Posted - 2011.01.20 17:31:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Ranja Jeemana
Originally by: Doctor Steinsbrow
if you're playing eve for PI, you're doing it wrong
Yeah? Tell that to the guy who's producing your T2 ships and parts and doing the massive amount of R&D on the blueprints to make the game run, because PI is almost certainly what is fueling his POS towers and labs, and providing the materials he needs to craft the ships you keep getting blown-up, ****-jockey.
Oh yeah, that guy is me, hi there. I depended on PI to make all of those things work, the change in PI has increased the cost in time to do PI effectively while reducing the output and requiring more time hauling and being present at your PI worlds to be efficient. PI was already a joke as far as profit and real utility - now it's just a sad joke.
The only ones not *****ing right now are the ones who were already bending over and doing the P0 -> P2 manufacturing planet hauls and getting ****d for 3 Launchpad charges per P2/P3 item made. Higher yield, but made a deeper cut into your personal time and profits. Now the lazy way of getting just enough to feed a couple of POS towers is removed, along with the ability to play the PI game how you want to.
Are you complaining about what you've chosen to do in EVE? Seriously? Whine whine I do manufacturing and make your POS fuels. Not like you don't earn isk or anything, or choose to do it when you could go be a pirate/PVPer/general troll like the rest of the population. 
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nihlanth
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.01.20 18:23:00 -
[104]
What's with all the whining? It was quite easy to reshuffle some buildings around to get the same production amount.
I extract 2 different materials per planet and have 2 advanced production plantets for the P2's.
I am able to support 8 advanced facilities on each of the two production planets, and only need to haul once a week (or less).
The only whine I have is that the hotspot decay should occur after a period of weeks/months, not mere days.
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Janna Shah
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Posted - 2011.01.20 19:55:00 -
[105]
AS far as I can see .. this is a totally new system .
The change favours specialisation and segregation into pure miners and specialist factories producing stuff . I dont even think it is possible ( power wise ) to both mine and to produce anything serious at the same time .
It has become impossible to extract all available minerals and at the same time process these into specialized stuff .. this has to be done sequentially = more time after the changes .
All in all this niche of Eve will demand far more WORK !
What I resent is that CCP announced this as an improvement and as more easy .. which apart from a slightly more slick interface for extraction in my opinion does not describe the change .. It will be far more difficult to get to the final end of production chains . For a Singleplayer without a lot of alts like me .. it will not pay of to attempt advanced production . Again .. as always THE SINGLE non Corp Player has been disfavoured . I wonder when CCP for once will come up with something for us individualists .. we are quite a lot of people !
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Wenzl
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Posted - 2011.01.20 21:18:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Ranja Jeemana
Originally by: Doctor Steinsbrow
if you're playing eve for PI, you're doing it wrong
Yeah? Tell that to the guy who's producing your T2 ships and parts and doing the massive amount of R&D on the blueprints to make the game run, ....
Couldn't agree more!!
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SirFur
Caldari Elite Force
Apocalypse Now.
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Posted - 2011.01.20 21:47:00 -
[107]
There is a problem with the new system. I guess there are benefits too. I feel though that for those of us who didin't delve into PI hardcore and were part-timers have been affected worse off. For myself I run only a few planets but my objective was to create a system as efficient and as little work as possible, especially with regards to hauling. I ended up setting up several planets producing a full p3 item and others with p3 and p4. Whether this was more or less efficient it meant my only traveling was to haul p3 items to the appropriate p4 building planet and haul to market the p4.
Now my issue isn't with the new system as such and the new features. They apply to all and whether it was better or worse we have to adapt and use the new system. My concern is simply that I can no longer extract more than 3 p0 items from a single planet. It is of course more efficient to extract all your items on different planets and then produce on others but that has increased work now and forces us to use more planets as a result. It is no longer possible to produce a single p3 item on a single planet - now whether this was intentional I don't know but I guess the ease of the new system has been compensated by requiring us to use more planets and more travelling.
This of course refers to mainly I think the old systems' part timers in PI and guess for those who were already dedicated it saves time for them as hauling was a big feature for those guys anyway. Ah well, I will have to make p3 items now instead of p4 if I want to maintain my low level of time inputted into PI - I just don't have enough to spend more time in PI. Who knows - I may well earn MORE with the new system.
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Life is a Gift: Use it Wisely
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Wenzl
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Posted - 2011.01.20 22:31:00 -
[108]
Originally by: nihlanth
Edited by: nihlanth on 20/01/2011 18:28:14
What's with all the whining? It was quite easy to reshuffle some buildings around to get the same production amount.
I extract 2 different materials per planet and have 2 advanced production plantets for the P2's.
I am able to support 8 advanced facilities on each of the two production planets, and only need to haul once a week (or less).
The only whine I have is that the hotspot decay should occur after a period of weeks/months, not mere days.
The key point is that you only need 2/3 of the number of extracting points you had before, because the ECU itself takes up the remaining 1/3 of overall powergrid costs.
For instance, you used to have 6 extractors on a resource. With the new system, you replace those six extractors with ONE ECU and 4 extracting pins if you optimize the quality. You will be able to extract a very similar amount, or even more than before for the same powergrid usage.
Oh well, maybe that works for you. But in my case I extracted 4 resources with 12 extractors from one and the same planet that also had all the infrastructure on it to give me a P3 end result to collect regularly and sell at minimum cost plus use part of it for further production. û Now I can put no more than TWO (!!) extractors down and am looking at having to come up with a completely new production system.
All in all I have 6 different type planets involved that are finetuned to each other to produce two P4 items. All extract 4 resources and most of them are in conveniently in the same system (the rest no more than 2 jumps away). This change from 12 down to only 2 extractors means for me ripping down buildings, heavy costs to rebuild, and if I'm not that lucky I might have to relocate altogether. My business is dead, I have to start over from scratch and I am looking at massive costs to do so.
I have nothing against change, but in a case like mine, I would not exactly call this an improvement.....
What would you call that? Bad luck? Definitely. What else? Poor development planning from CCP and not enough thinking? Stuff the players, they can afford it? Who cares how much time and ISK anybody invested? I'm sure everybody can think of a few more things!
Like I said, I have no problem with change, but if it's a drastic change that may have all sorts of potentially VERY costly repercussions for different players, then there should also be some sort of compensation plan in place as well, wouldn't you agree?
(BTW, I have all PI skills and command centers at maximum levels)
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Mystagr
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Posted - 2011.01.20 23:00:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Chelone
Originally by: Tnas
So who's brilliant idea was it to make hot spots move?
-100 for that idea alone.
It's not a bad idea if it would work on a fair and sensible time scale. Like slowly diminishing over a period of many weeks, or several months. THAT would have been fine.
Oh did you hear about the new quarry they're setting up down the stree oh wait they already moved it. Riiiiggghhhttt.
This "change" s@cks
Why the PI miners (for PI is a kind of mining) have to disband and rebuilt extractors, factories and launchpads again and again for the resource they want?
What is the meaning of this nonsense?
Yes right, the mining head can change the resource that is currently mining but hey...who tells CCP that this is a good thing?
It's like mining for tritanium and suddenly you are forced to mine for pyerite.
Who had this idea?
And what he thought this "change" will do?
Surely not things better.
Just quit the "resource moving around" nonsense, how hard is it?
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Mystagr
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Posted - 2011.01.20 23:03:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Chelone
Originally by: Yusimicon
PI production is still in its infancy since Tyrannis was released (which was not too long ago). Give it time and all will be better.
But it WAS better. Now it is WORSE. Therefore, waiting isn't the answer. Screaming and screaming and screaming about it is, because the devs NEVER listen until the screaming reaches a certain threshold. People screamed about it on test server and not a single issue was addressed. The sad, sad state of operations at CCP.
Could not agree more.
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SirFur
Caldari Elite Force
Apocalypse Now.
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Posted - 2011.01.20 23:09:00 -
[111]
You spoke my mind Wenzl.
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Life is a Gift: Use it Wisely
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Shakon
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Posted - 2011.01.20 23:31:00 -
[112]
Looks like this whole set up was to help people have a reason to have alternates so they can macro/Bot haul... Thats the only ones i dont see complaining.
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