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Percivs
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Posted - 2005.01.29 01:54:00 -
[91]
Edited by: Percivs on 29/01/2005 01:55:57
strange, not letting me post.  |
Percivs
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Posted - 2005.01.29 01:55:00 -
[92]
Edited by: Percivs on 29/01/2005 01:57:30
FFS, technical problems suck. where's the delete? |
Percivs
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Posted - 2005.01.29 01:57:00 -
[93]
 Originally by: Merlin
I find some of the selective logic here quite astonishing.
Calmity Jaynes's "offer" that we would be out within 24 hours was nothing more than a comment - in what other way can "we hope to be clear of FA space in 24 hours" be interpreted unless you are looking to make political capital out of it?
Your "patronage" in extending our alledgedly self imposed time constraint is laughable when you admit yourselves that the usual is 1 week.
Lets face it - you thought Jazz may have been helping The Art of War. In the circumstances, from a neutral perspective, this may be seen as fair comment.
However;
I find it particularly disappointing that the Fountain "Alliance" "leadership" (leadership - ho ho ho) cannot seem to exhaust the sensible diplomatic channels before resorting to tantrum tactics and booting Jazz without trusting us. You then say you treat us as neutrals - i.e. Kill on Sight. Dont even try to deny that you wouldn't REALLY care if a Jazz ship got destroyed.
All this implied posturing about the Jazz / Art of War relationship is offensive; I have flown with all those guys but once they chose their own path that was their decision. Jazz respected that but did not help them - and in turn The Art of War respected that.
Trust and Respect are huge words - they just are not in the BIG dictionary.
All that FA have done on this thread is attempt to defend the indefensible. Which is ironic no?
"Do not be daunted when chaos reigns all around - it undoubtedley will" Brig James Hill DSO** MC before Normandy
For anyone who has not been a pilot in Fountain. It is not impossible to find a friendly pilot for people who have left Fountain. Passes can and are issued. And friends do take care of friends. No where in this entire thread has it been said that the pilot who was alleged to exceed the 48 hours given attempted to convo someone to obtain a passport. And I cannot deny or affirm that someone from Jazz was shot at, because I wans't there, and no one who was there has told me.
Fountain Alliance has in the past arranged exit passports for players who return from 6 months away from game only to discover that they've been ejected from their previous corp. Or pilots whose corp was an Fountain applicant and later left for whatever reason.
Heck, I've personally arranged for passports for people attempting to exit the region whose corp received even less time to exit the region than Jazz has been given. And I'm sure that I'm not alone when I say that if any of my friends in Jazz (who are still there, rather than in ARTW and attacking me and my allies) left the alliance, they would receive every reasonable effort to protect them on their way out.
But if you don't have any friends left in Fountain who would take care of you, I pose to you that you ask yourself why that is. Certainly the mighty (though somewhat nebulous) "politics" answer cannot apply to every reason why you are downtrodden and victimized.
What no one is saying however is that if pilots exiting Fountain do not cut ties in a bad way, then they have to deal with the hostiles patrolling the pipe from YZ-LQL to D4K. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Except that if they stay on good terms with Fountain Alliance, get a pass and lose their ship to any of the corps currently engaged in hostilities within Fountain region, they don't get to come cry here about it.
Why? Because no one cares if RUBRA or UDIE ganks you in an indy while trying to leave the region. No one would jump on the band wagon and say "you're oppressed! Damn those RUBRA for ganking you!" NO ONE. Except Fountain Alliance and their friends.
To the rest of the readership, if this thread was about how someone from Fountain Alliance had gotten ganked by RUBRA or ATUK on their way to empire, everyone would laugh their ass off. This isn't happening now because many people seem to have now decided that Fountain is the new "ebil empire" since Curse is no longer an alliance formally. (everyone needs a bad guy I guess)
The only people who seem to be giving this thread any substance at all are people who are obviously hostile to Fountain Alliance (i.e., those corps that either are engaged in CONCORD approved wars, are attacking pilots in the Fountain region, or are engaged in hostilities in Outer Ring or Period Basis, neither of which Fountain holds, but which we selflessly sacrifice time and ships to the defense of our neighbors and friends. With the obvious exception of Stain pilots, who are in theory NAP'd with us, but who apparently have individual pilots that don't like us for some reason beyond my ability to comprehend.)
And Plagues, give it a rest. As I understand it, your beef is with certain people in management of Fountain Alliance. Where you could at least try gain sympathy for some of the things that have
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"All of us who are concerned for peace and triumph of reason and justice must be keenly aware how small an influence reason and honest good will exert upon events in the political field" - A.E. |
Percivs
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Posted - 2005.01.29 02:06:00 -
[94]
Edited by: Percivs on 29/01/2005 02:08:09
[cont...] happened to you and Jazz, you instead come here and act in a way that only causes pilots who don't know what happened to rally around the defense of their homeland. (I don't even know that anything happened, but it's obvious from the way you are acting that you feel this is somehow personal... Something did happen, even if you're wrong, for which you are now prepared to be "relentless." yay for you, me, I'm just confused by your motivation, and because of your behavior, I'm no longer predisposed to hearing your side of it, to be completely honest.)
I once held a measure of respect for you as a FC (fleet commander) and was saddened to hear that you had stepped down. I was shocked and dismayed to hear that you not only left Jazz, but Fountain Alliance. I give you props for how you kept it professional while you were in the alliance, but how you have behaved, especially on the forums, since your departure is debasing.
---
"All of us who are concerned for peace and triumph of reason and justice must be keenly aware how small an influence reason and honest good will exert upon events in the political field" - A.E. |
Darial
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Posted - 2005.01.29 02:41:00 -
[95]
1. Why should a former Fountain Alliance member be forced to pay a fine/passport to leave the region ? They won't be mining or hunting npc's on their way out.
Is it not FA policy to allow a stranger to Fountain to leave your space without paying for a passport and without being attacked ? I know this from personal experience, because I was told on numerous occasions that we are not allowed to engage them unless they remain in FA space without buying a passport.
2. I know for a fact that anyone in FA space that is not in an FA corp would be allowed to travel safely by ARTW and Rubra, and probably ATUK and others too, especially a Jazz member (since Jazz are no longer an FA corp).
So don't try use that as an excuse for attacking ex-Alliance collegues trying to get their stuff out of your claimed space.
3. All this talk of deadlines, 24 hours, 48 hours etc...
Percivs, you said (I quote) "Heck, I've personally arranged for passports for people attempting to exit the region whose corp received even less time to exit the region than Jazz has been given.".
What was the corp name ?
Even back in the days of the coup d'Útat when corps like CORM, LLC and CME were kicked out of the Fountain Alliance, when FA produced logs of CORM hiring mercs to attack an FA corp (sound familiar ?), even then those corps were allowed one week to get their stuff and members out of fountain space (this was after some members of those corps were openly attacked for undocking).
So why was Jazz not given the "normal" time period for leaving Fountain space ?
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Raivotar
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Posted - 2005.01.29 02:59:00 -
[96]
So
Cry me a river
Cry me a river er er
cry me a river
cry me a river er er
YA YA
Oh
The damage is done
So i guess i be leavin
Oh
The damage is done
So i guess i be leavin
Oh
The damage is done
So i guess i be leavin
You don't have to say, What cha did
I already know, I found out from HIM
now theres just no chance
with you and me
we will never be
don't it make you sad about it
So
Cry me a river
Cry me a river er er
cry me a river
cry me a river er er
cry me a river
cry me a river...........
./me continues hit the beat
Super Poseidon > So this is how it feels like to be an egg and 10000000 sperm cells try to penetrate you |
Ronyo Dae'Loki
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Posted - 2005.01.29 03:01:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Darial
Even back in the days of the coup d'Útat when corps like CORM, LLC and CME were kicked out of the Fountain Alliance, when FA produced logs of CORM hiring mercs to attack an FA corp (sound familiar ?), even then those corps were allowed one week to get their stuff and members out of fountain space (this was after some members of those corps were openly attacked for undocking).
So why was Jazz not given the "normal" time period for leaving Fountain space ?
Let's examine a few facts here:
Fact 1: JAZZ was given plenty of time to leave.
Fact 2: JAZZ was declared neutral by the FA despite JAZZ's own post about having close ties with ARTW, who was even then working with RUBRA attacking FA.
Fact 3: Time expired. JAZZ was still neutral, so like any neutral corp, was expected to either pay the normal pass fee, or, if circumstances were strange (such as someone having not logged on for several days and being in the middle of Fountain) talking to someone about it and getting a free pass to leave.
Fact 4: Something happened. Maybe it was a mistake, miscommunication. Maybe the JAZZ pilot provoked an FA pilot. Maybe an FA pilot got trigger-happy. Instead of trying to work it out, JAZZ immediately throws up a ****-storm, resulting in this thread.
Perhaps the more dense among us cannot (or do not wish to) see it, but it seems to me that there were more... ulterior motives here.
I'll close this post with the following excerpt from the JAZZ corp description:
ATUK SPONSORED
Y HELO THAR!
-------------
My salsa makes all the pretty girls want to dance and take off their underpants.
I <3 ( . Y . ) |
Dyvim Slorm
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Posted - 2005.01.29 03:03:00 -
[98]
The whole thing is very simple, we were to leave by Saturday midnight and we made the mistake of agreeing to try to hurry it up.
Recinding of that date was never agreed to by either party.
However, FA decided that they might extort a few more ISK out of us by making us pay to leave. I think Baun's own words at the head of this thread sum it up nicely - "which is better than you deserve".
Some of you in FA wonder why we're unhappy about that, well how would you feel?
Jazz will joining with others attacking FA, we're not quite the "soft touch" that you thought we were.
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Dyvim Slorm
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Posted - 2005.01.29 03:08:00 -
[99]
Edited by: Dyvim Slorm on 29/01/2005 03:12:56
Originally by: Ronyo Dae'Loki
ATUK SPONSORED
Quite correct and had we been left to leave in peace that would have been the end of the issue as we were moving to ATUK space, and far away from FA space.
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EVENFLOW
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Posted - 2005.01.29 03:18:00 -
[100]
Awaits fireworks known as "ships lost in space" to appear on the map...
/emote Continues to wander eve until the dust settles.
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Darial
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Posted - 2005.01.29 03:21:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Ronyo Dae'Loki
I'll close this post with the following excerpt from the JAZZ corp description:
ATUK SPONSORED
Oh FA were scared of ATUK 
Thats why they wanted Jazz out pronto.
But you'd imagine they wouldn't want to upset Jazz incase ATUK were offended ?
We all know how quickly FA wanted to make a deal with BoB when they came to FA core and killed everything that moved. Whatever FA used over BoB to get a ceasefire that day worked wonders, but it left a lot of pee'd off FA members who had lost their ships and were not allowed to engage BoB to get revenge.
Did FA pay to replace their ships out of their multi billion isk wallet ? Not a chance in hell.
And when BoB posted on this forum threathening to pay FA a visit again, FA leaders were very scared (and probably paid them off again).
I have no problems with BoB, they achieved an excellent victory over FA that day, that operation was tactically brilliant, even though I lost a Raven
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EL TITAN
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Posted - 2005.01.29 04:16:00 -
[102]
FA is making alot of enemies hee ;\
_________________________________________________
<3 hi |
Baun
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Posted - 2005.01.29 04:25:00 -
[103]
Originally by: EVENFLOW
Awaits fireworks known as "ships lost in space" to appear on the map...
/emote Continues to wander eve until the dust settles.
Hi even <3
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Lady Salvation
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Posted - 2005.01.29 07:06:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Dyvim Slorm
Edited by: Dyvim Slorm on 29/01/2005 03:12:56
Originally by: Ronyo Dae'Loki
ATUK SPONSORED
Quite correct and had we been left to leave in peace that would have been the end of the issue as we were moving to ATUK space, and far away from FA space.
thats so full of bullsh1te. you leave us in peace an are running to the enemy... ..
leaving peacefully is 1 thing, but:
1.)[artw] leaves jazz and attacks FA-pilots in FA-space and RANDOM targets in aridia...
2.)JAZZ is sponsred by ATUK!!! (we're @ war actually )
So you turned your back against former friends...
Maybe that is all coincidence. Maybe you find someone who believes that. I for myself don't do that.
Sorry, but i call that backstabbing and treachery @ its best..
and it saddens me that all that happended, really. i had the highest respect for most of the jazz, now artw pilots 
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BlackMatrix
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Posted - 2005.01.29 08:28:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Lady Salvation
thats so full of bullsh1te. you leave us in peace an are running to the enemy... ..
leaving peacefully is 1 thing, but:
1.)[artw] leaves jazz and attacks FA-pilots in FA-space and RANDOM targets in aridia...
2.)JAZZ is sponsred by ATUK!!! (we're @ war actually)
As you said the ARTW attacked FA not Jazz. So I wish people would stop bringing our previous colleagues into this argument. The whole thread is actually about FA not honouring the fact that we decided we wanted something new.
ATUK has shown Jazz a lot more support and friendship to Jazz than the FA ever has IMO.
Its also a shame you had to post with a alt for fear of FA backlash 
CEO -BMC- |
Padovar Adandur
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Posted - 2005.01.29 08:45:00 -
[106]
Ah well, the good thing about ex-members is, that they are not members anymore..
_______________
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Martin duPorres
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Posted - 2005.01.29 08:53:00 -
[107]
Fountain in like Communism. Its not if, its when its gonna fail.
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Dianabolic
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Posted - 2005.01.29 08:58:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Martin duPorres
Fountain in like Communism. Its not if, its when its gonna fail.
Such a poor comparison. Particularly when "true" communism has never been tried, but hey ho, be happy in your ignorance.
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Lallante
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Posted - 2005.01.29 08:59:00 -
[109]
Quote:
Go ask Shinra where we are to be found, they should know
ROFL your PROUD of your 17 : 123 record against us? WTF?
FA Emergency Council: AKA "Oh **** Guys its Gonna Blow"
Lall - THE Vocal Minority -
ShinRa
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qrac
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Posted - 2005.01.29 10:14:00 -
[110]
Edited by: qrac on 29/01/2005 10:16:29
dear former and current jazz members... look at s-44, they also left yet there were no incidents involving them and if there would be i'm positive they would contact an fa representative to solve the issue instead of crying like babies on the forums about how fa mistreated u to portray us as the badguys, when in fact u went to bed with the enemy while still being fa members.
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Insanes numquam moriuntur! |
EVENFLOW
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Posted - 2005.01.29 10:19:00 -
[111]
Originally by: qrac
dear former and current jazz members... look at s-44, they also left yet there were no incidents involving them and if there would be i'm positive they would contact an fa representative to solve the issue.
But your corp didn't get attacked while leaving...
(and i'm neutral and don't really care atm.)
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Vvari
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Posted - 2005.01.29 11:02:00 -
[112]
yay, I wasnt aware of this.
And down Fountain shall go. 
---------------------------
new sig under construction |
qrac
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Posted - 2005.01.29 11:06:00 -
[113]
Originally by: EVENFLOW
Originally by: qrac
dear former and current jazz members... look at s-44, they also left yet there were no incidents involving them and if there would be i'm positive they would contact an fa representative to solve the issue.
But your corp didn't get attacked while leaving...
(and i'm neutral and don't really care atm.)
point=?
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Insanes numquam moriuntur! |
Mad Bomber
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Posted - 2005.01.29 11:15:00 -
[114]
Keep digging FA
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Squelch
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Posted - 2005.01.29 11:30:00 -
[115]
Gah, what a messy thread 
I think it's safe to say that mistakes have been made regarding this issue and that those mistakes have caused more to follow from both sides.
Add to that the personal feelings of the pilots from all corporations involved and we're left with this mess.
From a personal viewpoint I have nothing but respect for the Jazz members that I had dealings with in Fountain. They made this game more enjoyable and I learned a great deal from them.
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EVENFLOW
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Posted - 2005.01.29 11:41:00 -
[116]
Edited by: EVENFLOW on 29/01/2005 11:43:27
Edited by: EVENFLOW on 29/01/2005 11:41:47
Originally by: qrac
Edited by: qrac on 29/01/2005 10:16:29
dear former and current jazz members... look at s-44, they also left yet there were no incidents involving them and if there would be i'm positive they would contact an fa representative to solve the issue instead of crying like babies on the forums about how fa mistreated u to portray us as the badguys, when in fact u went to bed with the enemy while still being fa members.
I repeat, you didn't get attacked while leaving. So jazz asked for 24hrs, if you were good friends, if push came to shove, wouldn't you give them more?
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Plagues
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Posted - 2005.01.29 11:57:00 -
[117]
hi squelch.
A lot has happened over the months within FA and i/we took a lot of rubbish from FA command.
Let me remind you of the time BIG took Tpar station off Jazz.
[ 2004.11.20 00:00:00 ] TornSoul > plagues - whats the problme?
[ 2004.11.20 00:00:39 ] Plagues > its time you stopped pushing your weight around
[ 2004.11.20 00:00:49 ] Plagues > an alliance should be for all
[ 2004.11.20 00:01:58 ] TornSoul > plag im not pushign any fekkign weight around
[ 2004.11.20 00:02:06 ] TornSoul > im doign what all stationowners have done in the past as well
[ 2004.11.20 00:02:31 ] Plagues > well its time for a change
[ 2004.11.20 00:02:41 ] Plagues > you had too much free reign
[ 2004.11.20 00:03:15 ] TornSoul > too much free reign????
[ 2004.11.20 00:03:20 ] TornSoul > wtf are you on about plag.....
[ 2004.11.20 00:10:54 ] TornSoul > So what are you sayign plag? That the station suddenly belongs to Jazz ?
[ 2004.11.20 00:11:12 ] Plagues > yes we defended it we took it
[ 2004.11.20 00:11:23 ] Plagues > we been here for weeks killing
2004.11.20 00:11:38 ] Plagues > how many hrs have big put into this area ?
[ 2004.11.20 00:11:38 ] TornSoul > As have i done *numerous* times as well plag...
TS
u obviously made a mistake tonight and told me so earlier
u didnt realize that it would cause suck a problem and in interest of FA peace will allow JAzz to reclaim
[ 2004.11.20 00:21:12 ] TornSoul > ill say yes if this can cool down jazz - But I sure as hell dont like or approve of it
[ 2004.11.20 00:23:17 ] Plagues > ill chill but if anything else like that happens again ill not sit back and take it
[ 2004.11.20 00:23:45 ] TornSoul > plag wtf are you saying
[ 2004.11.20 00:23:47 ] TornSoul > you want a war?
[ 2004.11.20 00:23:49 ] TornSoul > then say so
[ 2004.11.20 00:23:52 ] TornSoul > dont give me this BS
[ 2004.11.20 00:24:18 ] Plagues > if you want a war then go ahead
[ 2004.11.20 00:24:19 ] TornSoul > ive had it
[ 2004.11.20 00:24:37 ] TornSoul > C ya plagues
I removed the 3rd persons identity to save any hassle for him but those are the things FA corps have to put up with,if TS dont like it thats what happens^^
anyone wants full log just ask and ill send it but its time FA sorted there selves out.
and yes guys i kept all logs referring to lots of things from FA like the corps that wanted to revolt a while back etc and the meeting we had to try stop this happening you all know who you are so dont give me any bs here with how dedicated you are to FA and how much you will defend the region, its only a few months back when you wanted a change of management yourselves.
now im doing what we should of done then and im not affraid to say it. DOWN with FA
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qrac
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Posted - 2005.01.29 12:05:00 -
[118]
Originally by: EVENFLOW
Edited by: EVENFLOW on 29/01/2005 11:43:27
Edited by: EVENFLOW on 29/01/2005 11:41:47
Originally by: qrac
Edited by: qrac on 29/01/2005 10:16:29
dear former and current jazz members... look at s-44, they also left yet there were no incidents involving them and if there would be i'm positive they would contact an fa representative to solve the issue instead of crying like babies on the forums about how fa mistreated u to portray us as the badguys, when in fact u went to bed with the enemy while still being fa members.
I repeat, you didn't get attacked while leaving. So jazz asked for 24hrs, if you were good friends, if push came to shove, wouldn't you give them more?
i never left...
jazz asked for 24 hours... they got 48 hours and even with them being sponsored by atuk they were treated as neutrals. the pilot in question then got killed after 48 hours because of not abiding to fa rules which he should know very well.
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Insanes numquam moriuntur! |
qrac
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Posted - 2005.01.29 12:15:00 -
[119]
hey plagues... yesterday we were xanadu's puppets and now we're tornsoul's slaves. what will we become tomorrow?
maybe rubra wannabes like u ;)
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Insanes numquam moriuntur! |
StoreSlem
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Posted - 2005.01.29 13:11:00 -
[120]
Edited by: StoreSlem on 29/01/2005 13:13:24
Originally by: thelung187
4. In response to IA's post:
A. No feeding was needed, anyone who spent time in FA fleets clearly saw a lack of participation by Xan/BIG in any sort of fleet operations, in comparison with other corps and their involvement. Nobody can deny that <staring right at IA>
Xanadu always was a pvp heavy corp and have always participated in military operations. While core defence might have been so-so, xanadu pilots were always out fighting in curse or elsewhere. Even after nearly all our pvpr's quit in the space of a few days we had small gangs continue pvping. Currently Xanadu is making a presence in PB.
Originally by: Lallante
Quote:
Go ask Shinra where we are to be found, they should know
ROFL your PROUD of your 17 : 123 record against us? WTF?
FA Emergency Council: AKA "Oh **** Guys its Gonna Blow"
Feel free to go around trumphing your 1 corp statistics, but be sure for Xanadu they are no worse. 1 bs 1 cr 1 fr loss for the last couple of weeks, 15~20 bs kills.
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