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Simplify Missile Range Information

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quadz	Posted - 2011.02.13 19:47:00 - [1] Edited by: quadz on 13/02/2011 19:47:55 Edited by: quadz on 13/02/2011 19:47:22 Very simple proposal to help us newbs just starting out understanding Missiles! If you train Gunnery skills that affect Gunnery range/tracking/falloff/etc, and fly in space with a loaded turret, you can right click > Show info on that turret, and all relevent information (Range/Falloff/Tracking/Etc) is shown with your skills taken into account! It is an easy readout for us new players who just want to know what range to orbit at! Now look at missiles. . . Train Missile Bombardment (Increases missile flight time) and Missile Projection (Increase Missile velocity). Try flying in space with a loaded launcher, Right click > Show info on that! It gives you one piece of info, a very vague "max flight time", As opposed to just listing the max range OR even listing Velocity and Flight time with your skills taken into account. You must go into the fittings tab, and hover over the launcher, and click on the blue I to show charge info. . . this was NOT easy to find as a newb and was very confusing in Corp chat. tl;dr Please allow us to right click > Show info on a loaded launcher in space and see velocity x flight time updated to reflect our skills trained much like turrets display, as opposed to this mysterious "max flight time" tidbit. (Mine says 66s...not sure what that even means!) Thanks!
Morpheus Mishima Caldari	Posted - 2011.02.13 20:55:00 - [2] X * Y is too difficult for you? Missile-users only need to worry about 3 stats; Speed, Flight time and signature of target.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.02.13 21:16:00 - [3] Originally by: Morpheus Mishima X * Y is too difficult for you? More to the point, it isn't accurate. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Bill Serkoff2	Posted - 2011.02.13 22:12:00 - [4] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Morpheus Mishima X * Y is too difficult for you? More to the point, it isn't accurate. It actually is the precise maximum range of your missile. It's very accurate.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.02.13 22:40:00 - [5] Originally by: Bill Serkoff2 Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Morpheus Mishima X * Y is too difficult for you? More to the point, it isn't accurate. It actually is the precise maximum range of your missile. It's very accurate. No, because it doesn't take into account the flight time being lost on accelerating up to max speed. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Trick Novalight Caldari Instapop Industries	Posted - 2011.02.13 22:43:00 - [6] Edited by: Trick Novalight on 13/02/2011 22:47:20 Edited by: Trick Novalight on 13/02/2011 22:44:37 Originally by: Morpheus Mishima X * Y is too difficult for you? Missile-users only need to worry about 3 stats; Speed, Flight time and signature of target. Where x = flight time and y = velocity For example: Wrath Fury Cruise Missile flight time = 18s velocity = 3,750 m/sec max distance = 67.5km [EDIT] please note that both flight time and velocity can be modified with skills, rigs and ship mods [EDIT2] loaded charge info does reflect the above listed stat mods.
Ninetails o'Cat League of Super Evil	Posted - 2011.02.13 23:03:00 - [7] Originally by: Trick Novalight Edited by: Trick Novalight on 13/02/2011 22:47:20 Edited by: Trick Novalight on 13/02/2011 22:44:37 Originally by: Morpheus Mishima X * Y is too difficult for you? Missile-users only need to worry about 3 stats; Speed, Flight time and signature of target. Where x = flight time and y = velocity For example: Wrath Fury Cruise Missile flight time = 18s velocity = 3,750 m/sec max distance = 67.5km [EDIT] please note that both flight time and velocity can be modified with skills, rigs and ship mods [EDIT2] loaded charge info does reflect the above listed stat mods. I recall some people did some research into the maximum range that a missile can hit at, and actually the results were not simply flight speed * flight time; agility and mass came into it as well. Quote: TRUE Missile Range r = Range v = Velocity of missile f = Flight time of missile m = Mass of missile a = Agility of missile Quote: r = v(f-(10^6/(ma))
Misanthra	Posted - 2011.02.14 00:19:00 - [8] eft to get max range. Get closer to have an actual usable range. Profit. Just because raven hits up to 160 km's with t1 ammo, bs 4, pasaable support skills does not mean you should fire from there. Or a cerb....either way great ways to waste ammo as you can get 4-5 salvo's in the air but target only needs 2 lol. Fire at max range on these boats...getting unneeded salvo's off real easy. This for pve and for a better bottom line. Ammo costs affects isk per hour to me...know on my tengu I flew on a busy room at max range I could waste 2-3 salvo's per ship. PVP much easier...fc is warping drake support in wiht the canes and harb's as one big group. Unless you got podded to negative missile skills by not renewing your clone...you got range on your gun bearing friends. Or you are gate + some clearance of your crews bubble. This is why fitting fleet fits as directed real important. You have a t2 ham drake, they run t2 hml's. FC sees you in drake...he will assume you are hml spec. Really best for all involved if he assumed right lol.
Corina's Bodyguard	Posted - 2011.02.14 00:33:00 - [9] Hittable range also depends on the direction of movement of your target. If moving away from you, range is much less. Towards much greater. My 35 km torp hit at 50 because the ship wanted to close distance. Anyway, none of this is what the OP is asking for. He wants (and I agree) the updated stats of flight time and speed to be displayed when you right click on the launcher in space, just like for guns. Right now, the only way to know the effects of your skills in game is to use the fittings window, which many noobs do not know is even possible.
quadz	Posted - 2011.02.14 03:04:00 - [10] Edited by: quadz on 14/02/2011 03:12:35 Originally by: Morpheus Mishima X * Y is too difficult for you? Missile-users only need to worry about 3 stats; Speed, Flight time and signature of target. I'm sorry, but it is users like you who give forums a bad reputation. You obviously did not even read my post. I'll try again to restate the issue I'm bringing forth. You have both a gun and a launcher on your ship, both loaded, and you are flying through space. If you right click > show info on the GUN TURRET it will, in it's attributes tab, display the Optimal Range/Falloff/Tracking numbers AFTER your skills are taken into account. If you Right click > Show info on a loaded launcher, it does NOT show Flight Time or Velocity at all. You have to go through the fittings tab, hover over your launcher, and then click the blue I to see the charge info to get the relevant information you need to determine the maximum distance your missile will fly. As a new player this is not obvious at all, and I don't understand why I cannot just right click > show info on the launcher to see this information, just like I would a loaded turret. I hope I explained it in simple enough terms for you to understand this time.
quadz	Posted - 2011.02.15 13:39:00 - [11] Anyone else think this should have been done a long time ago?
Corporal Punishment08 NosWaffle Nostradamus Effect	Posted - 2011.02.15 17:45:00 - [12] I think it's easy enough as is. Going "Max Flight Time" x "Max Velocity" on the show info of your missile when loaded in a launcher of your active ship will give you an accurate enough distance. For instance (Pulling random numbers here): Max Flight Time times Max Velocity 10 seconds times 8750 m/s = 87,500m or 87.5km (For those mathematically impaired, you cross out the "Seconds" on both sides, that is how you get just "Meters" in your answer) Now obviously, it's not COMPLETELY accurate, but I would just go out to 85km to be safe. At that distance, a difference of 2.5km is not going to make or break your campaign. "What about short range missiles?" I dunno, take off 10% of your calculation and you should be fine. Besides, your target will always be moving, so you probably want to allow a buffer for yourself to catch up with the target without getting him/her out of range and missing a volley anyways. It's really not that hard. Besides, in Gunnery, what you are neglecting to mention, maybe because of your own ignorance (I am not saying I know anything about gunnery, I am probably more ignorant than you in that area), you have many other things to worry about other than max range. So don't think Gunnery is as simple as "Go to max range that shows up in 'Show info' and fire away". _____________________________________ Real men corpse tank.
quadz	Posted - 2011.02.15 23:34:00 - [13] Originally by: Corporal Punishment08 I think it's easy enough as is. Going "Max Flight Time" x "Max Velocity" on the show info of your missile when loaded in a launcher of your active ship will give you an accurate enough distance. For instance (Pulling random numbers here): Max Flight Time times Max Velocity 10 seconds times 8750 m/s = 87,500m or 87.5km (For those mathematically impaired, you cross out the "Seconds" on both sides, that is how you get just "Meters" in your answer) Now obviously, it's not COMPLETELY accurate, but I would just go out to 85km to be safe. At that distance, a difference of 2.5km is not going to make or break your campaign. "What about short range missiles?" I dunno, take off 10% of your calculation and you should be fine. Besides, your target will always be moving, so you probably want to allow a buffer for yourself to catch up with the target without getting him/her out of range and missing a volley anyways. It's really not that hard. Besides, in Gunnery, what you are neglecting to mention, maybe because of your own ignorance (I am not saying I know anything about gunnery, I am probably more ignorant than you in that area), you have many other things to worry about other than max range. So don't think Gunnery is as simple as "Go to max range that shows up in 'Show info' and fire away". Yet another person who did NOT read or pay attention to my original post. I did not realize this was difficult, so one more time, slowly. . . As a pilot, we train various skills that affect various stats and capabilities of our weapons, such as Gunnery's Range/Tracking/Falloff and Missile Velocity/Flight time. Scenario: You have both a turret and a launcher, loaded, and are flying in space. If you Right Click > Show Info on the Turret, it WILL display ALL relevant information (Range/Tracking/Falloff/etc) fully updated and taking into account current skill levels. If you Right Click > Show info on the launcher, IT DOES NOT. You must access a seperate tab, the Fittings tab, while the launcher is loaded, hover over the launcher, click the little blue I, and there you find the Flight time x Velocity taking your skills into account. I'm putting forth that such a simple change is not only logical, but would help newbs figure out missile capabilities. Going into the fitting tab and hovering over the Launcher is in no way as intuitive as Right Click > Show Info that Turrets get. I should be able to right click > show info to get relevant missile information updated for my skills just like I can right click > show info on a turret to get relevant gunnery information updated to reflect my skills. Sheesh. . . . .
quadz	Posted - 2011.02.15 23:36:00 - [14] Also keep in mind Incursion 1.2 was a collection of quality of life fixes, and the dev team said they are actively looking for more. That's all this is. It's a small change so that the context sensitive information (Read: Right click > Show info) will work in the same manner for missile information as it currently does for turrets.
Annoitte	Posted - 2011.02.16 02:31:00 - [15] Quadz, you are wasting your breath. The guys that don't understand your extremely simple and straight to the point concept are not ever going to understand it. But, as far as your idea goes. Yes. You should be able to get the information on launchers as easily as you can get it for turrets. This should be implemented.
Misanthra	Posted - 2011.02.16 05:48:00 - [16] Originally by: Annoitte Quadz, you are wasting your breath. The guys that don't understand your extremely simple and straight to the point concept are not ever going to understand it. not that its not being gotten...its not sure why the need. Max missile range is a magic number for many setups. Except for kestrel and drake...missile boats give range bonuses to the point where missile range greater than sensor range even on crap missile skills. Rattler for example gives nice range bonus. My rattler pilot has crap missile skills (level 3...I got it for a shield based sentry boat, didn't to respec to armor for domi). Still reaches well beyond sensor. Drake crap skills has range like 10-15 kms under sensor. Easy number to remember...and why fly a drake not 4'd just a bad thing to do regardless. Torps and ham granted don't follow this. But you just don't jump right into torps. Eft those fits highly recommended because they are a pita to fit unless you like glass cannons (siege launchers aint scared to have having thier way with your pg and cpu, t1 bad, t2 is a test of even good fitting skills). Same with hams. EFt gives you a nice range to remember, saves the math. Also saves buying crap that won't fit after you pimp the high slots with 2 of the most resource greedy weapons systems in the game.
Jennifer Emmagan Expletus Imperiosus Dominatus Slacker Trade Federation Unlimited	Posted - 2011.02.16 06:11:00 - [17] Edited by: Jennifer Emmagan on 16/02/2011 06:12:44 Everyone that you think is being stubborn and telling you max flight time * velocity tells you is correct to a point. You probably just didn't know you can show info ammo from the fitting window and see the adjusted stats, including your adjusted damage. However, multiplication on the fly of weird numbers is annoying (12.3 * 1249) and also inaccurate as your range is quite short of that value. If a target is 20km away and your range is 20km the missile will not hit if the target is moving because it turns slightly and follows before impact which uses up max flight time, as well as the missile accelerating when launched. The reason there is no "range" is because missiles turn and follow targets. If your missile goes 1000m/s and the target is orbiting you at 800m/s then distance is lost as it turns and catches up with the target to try to impact it. It's possible to out run missiles even if you are "in range" if you can travel faster than their velocity. There is no hard and fast range, that is why it is not displayed. What should be displayed is "Max Flight Distance" or something along those lines to save having to do multiplication on weird numbers. No matter how they handle this, you still have to show info the ammo, not the module. Open the fitting window and hover over the launcher then click the first blue "i" which is "show charge info". It will show adjusted stats.
Misanthra	Posted - 2011.02.16 06:44:00 - [18] Originally by: Jennifer Emmagan If a target is 20km away and your range is 20km the missile will not hit if the target is moving because it turns slightly and follows before impact which uses up max flight time, as well as the missile accelerating when launched. The reason there is no "range" is because missiles turn and follow targets. this why its a magic number....forget to add that part. max range only good for a stationary target. You will want as close as possible on missile most of the time if only to prevent this from happening. Also gives the advantage of a more "instant hit" with less travel time. PVE sniping rats in a tengu from 100km's will be very time consuming with the missile time. And wastes isk since good rof skills and boosts not hard to get 4 salvo's in the air. You might only need 2 of them, other 2 just fall into the server bit bucket. PVP cerb sniping with any appreciable amounts of gun boats in the fleet and they will be in secondary and tertiaty targets by the time they hit. Cerb max range you skill is 105 km's...live a little, engage at 60km's. Also tied to range is how effective your tp skills are...adding some more magic to max range number. If john q noob has not learned missiles to 4...good bet their electronics skills suck too. No fall off worth mentioning, no signal skills to paint the target brighter. Set up like that...most ships explosion calculations will favor the target and they get paint scratched but no real damage. Again...get up close and personal. If no electronics skills, baseline 30km's of tp till you hit those skills up.
steave435 Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2011.02.16 07:08:00 - [19] The idea is not to display some new value called max range or anything like that. It is to make max flight time and max velocity easier to find. Supported.
Corina's Bodyguard	Posted - 2011.02.16 11:29:00 - [20] I can't believe the fail of reading comprehension in this thread. Oddly, those that do understand the OP have agreed. All the OP is asking is that instead of having to go to the fitting window to check the info on the ammo in use that an option would be added to the module activators on the bottom to check the info on the ammo. He doesn't mind doing the math, he just wants it more noob intuitive (which isn't a bad thing in this case).
quadz	Posted - 2011.02.16 20:17:00 - [21] Thanks for the support again, Corina. You're exactly right. Doing the math doesn't bother me at all, even if I have to adjust for ramp up time and understand that it's not perfect flight distance. I just feel the information should be displayed on the module just like it is for guns.
De'Veldrin Minmatar Self Preservation Society the 2nd Dead Terrorists	Posted - 2011.02.16 20:56:00 - [22] I facepalmed all the way through this thread. Supported. --Vel Originally by: Blacksquirrel This is EVE. PVE can happen anywhere at anytime. Be prepared.
Morpheus Mishima Caldari	Posted - 2011.02.16 21:38:00 - [23] Dear OP: I do understand your question. However I wanted to point out that if EVE is dumbed down a lot of people (not mentioning who) would complain about that instead. So therefore I would prefer if changes and simplification of stats was kept to a minimum. I'm sorry that I answered with such negative attitude. So I would like to apologize for that. Imho. EVE should have to calculate for gravitational forces, speed of vessel firing the missile, direction of said vessel - etc too :-) Easy-mode = No! thanks
quadz	Posted - 2011.02.16 23:08:00 - [24] Originally by: Morpheus Mishima Dear OP: I do understand your question. However I wanted to point out that if EVE is dumbed down a lot of people (not mentioning who) would complain about that instead. So therefore I would prefer if changes and simplification of stats was kept to a minimum. I'm sorry that I answered with such negative attitude. So I would like to apologize for that. Imho. EVE should have to calculate for gravitational forces, speed of vessel firing the missile, direction of said vessel - etc too :-) Easy-mode = No! thanks Morpheus, I appreciate the apology, and I am NOT mocking you when I say this. You're still not getting what I'm asking. I don't want stats simplified AT ALL. I simply want to be able to right click > show info on a loaded launcher module in space and receive all relevant information (Flight time/velocity/whatever else) instead of having to go through the fittings tab and show charge info. You do not have to go through the fittings tab to show the information needed to make smart combat decisions for Guns, why do you have to for launchers? It's not intuitive in the slightest and this thread proves that sometimes asking for simple things leads to misunderstandings. When I first started using missiles and was trying to find this information, a number of people could NOT tell me anything other than "show info on missile LOL" which did NOT update for my skills. That is all.
Altus Nubius	Posted - 2011.02.17 00:55:00 - [25] Agreed with OP. Maybe it could be implemented by adding an "Ammunition" tab to the launcher information window. Just one more thing I'd add though - damage bonuses from ballistic controls being added properly in the missile attributes.
quadz	Posted - 2011.02.18 13:23:00 - [26] bamp
Cloning Service Duvolle Cloning Division	Posted - 2011.02.18 13:46:00 - [27] Do want! Heck, I'd go so far as to say that I'd also like an "effective range" row (which is speed * time * ~0.9)
Borasatar	Posted - 2011.02.18 14:28:00 - [28] The thing is, turret range is set by the turret. Ammo is a modifier on that (-50% optimal, +60% optimal, etc.) A missile launcher has no range, it only has a rate of fire. The range entirely depends on what ammo is loaded (the range is an attribute of the ammo, not the launcher). Now, I'm not saying they can't display it differently, but conceptually, range is simply not an attribute of a launcher while it is an attribute of a turret.
quadz	Posted - 2011.02.18 19:35:00 - [29] Originally by: Borasatar The thing is, turret range is set by the turret. Ammo is a modifier on that (-50% optimal, +60% optimal, etc.) A missile launcher has no range, it only has a rate of fire. The range entirely depends on what ammo is loaded (the range is an attribute of the ammo, not the launcher). Now, I'm not saying they can't display it differently, but conceptually, range is simply not an attribute of a launcher while it is an attribute of a turret. I get what you're saying, but as you acknowledge, they could just as easy make another tab on the show info that says Charge Info. The point is to not have to go to the fittings tab, really.
quadz	Posted - 2011.02.21 02:39:00 - [30] Bamp

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