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Ginger Barbarella
State War Academy Caldari State
85
|
Posted - 2012.08.27 21:19:00 -
[31] - Quote
Invictra Atreides wrote:I don't understand why all the hate. Do players here in Science & Industry never calculate the amount of time they need for a particular task?
Just think for a second. If OP had 6 accounts then he would be making 60 mill/h. 10 min of active managing for every account.
I think there are two kinds of Industrialists here: the type that pulls out a slide rule and has Spreadsheets trained to L5 that dry humps the phrase "Opportunity Costs" at every opportunity, counting pennies, and revels in .01 isk battles in the market.
Then there's the kind that understands it's a game, sells stuff FOR PROFIT and uses a gradually rising wallet balance overall to determine success, and plays for fun, and not tracking every single minute spent logged in. I never sell below MY COSTS (I have no idea what YOUR costs are, and I don't care), always take advantage of buying off market if I can readily resell for bigger isk, and use Invention to create T2 stuffs to sell on market or use myself (no, my few T2 BPOs haven't been used in over a year).
Love to hear where other posters lie in either of these two camps, but then this is the Intarwebs. Truth is secondary to epeen here. Oh, and if you have problems with reading comprehension, don't bother responding. |
Flurk Hellbron
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
107
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Posted - 2012.08.28 00:36:00 -
[32] - Quote
Woeaaahhh,
I earn 1 biltriljon fun for every hour I play in eve................... don't mine.............. lol |
Dilma Rousseff
All Your Machariel Belong to Ham Industrial Technonauts
8
|
Posted - 2012.08.28 00:46:00 -
[33] - Quote
Why to pay this much attention to someone that is clearly trolling ? |
Kaivar Lancer
General Exports
222
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Posted - 2012.08.28 03:56:00 -
[34] - Quote
Did some further analysis outside of mining. I looked at T1 manufacturing and from one slot alone, I could make 400m profit per month. I reckon that would take perhaps 10 mins to setup for the whole month?
400m * 6 = 2.4 b isk per hour
Time to retire my retriever. |
stoicfaux
1516
|
Posted - 2012.08.28 04:23:00 -
[35] - Quote
Are people really this confused about measuring * isk per wall clock hour versus * isk per hour spent actively paying attention to the game?
You can tell me what is and isn't Truth when you pry the tinfoil from my cold, lifeless head.
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Dan Carter Murray
99
|
Posted - 2012.08.28 04:37:00 -
[36] - Quote
Totally Trustworthy wrote:Kaivar Lancer wrote:I was doing some basic timing using a stopwatch, and discovered that I spent about 10 minutes per hour of mining, actively doing something in the game. This would be stuff like locking an asteroid, moving cargo, warping, etc.
The other 50 mins was spent semi-afk doing homework on a second monitor.
I mine around 10m isk per hour in my Retriever. So for every active minute I spent in-game, I earnt 1m isk. So for every 60 minutes of "active" mining, I make 60m isk.
So I can say that I make 60m isk per hour from mining.
Pretty neat, eh? Can mission runners boast the same thing? You're a ******* moron. The strips cycle at the same speed whether you're at the keyboard or not. You don't magically increase your mining if you become "active". You earn 10mil per hour, period. Idiot.
"what you've just said-á... is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul." |
Lutin Ballista
Ballista Investment Corp
7
|
Posted - 2012.08.28 07:24:00 -
[37] - Quote
Ginger Barbarella wrote:You want to talk reality? OK, how's this? I bill $150 US$ per hour to work on stuff for my clients on the side. I do that while AFK mining. What do I make in one hour? $150/$35 per GTC = 4 GTC (rounded down) = 8 PLEX, per HOUR.
That's reality. Now, go back to your example, please.
Is that all? Try harder. |
ashley Eoner
46
|
Posted - 2012.08.28 18:53:00 -
[38] - Quote
I just realized I spend a lot of time doing nothing at work.. I MAKE MORE THEN MINIMUM WAGE BY A HUUUUUGE AMOUNT NOW!!!.. WOOO HOOO
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Erotica 1
Krypteia Operations
12
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Posted - 2012.08.28 21:27:00 -
[39] - Quote
Whoever said they made more in the market I must agree....
mining and mission running is like working a job
time = isk
If you decide to start trading, you continue to make your isk work for you overnight. Sure, you spend some time researching items and updating orders, but you will find some regular items and the market research time drops off.
See Bio for isk doubling rules. -áIf you didn't read bio, chances are you helped fund those who did. |
Marcus McTavish
EnC Heavy Industries Rolling Thunder.
42
|
Posted - 2012.08.28 22:04:00 -
[40] - Quote
Kaivar Lancer wrote:Nyreanya wrote:Using the OP's logic, I can say I make about 400 mil/hour doing science. He's obviously not studying math. When you go to work, do you add travel time when calculating your $/hr from your job? No? Why is that? The same logic applies for calculating isk/hr when mining. For 10 mins of "work" (mouse-clicking etc), I earn 10m isk. The other 50 minutes, I don't do anything mining-related. That's like working 10 minutes, going home for 50 minutes to jack off, then coming back to work for another 10 minutes. Rinse and repeat. This is common sense. But then again, this is EVE, the home of aspies.
Yea, its like working 10 minutes, then ya'know BEING at work for another 50.
You are mining for 10 mins, but you are also..... MINING THE OTHER 50 Minutes!!!! You might not be paying attention, but your character is still working.
That's like saying if you spend 5 minutes queuing downloads which take 55 minutes to download, that you can download the file in 5 minutes.
Your logic is stating that since you are only active for 1/6th the time, that you receive the benefits of all the time.
You need to enroll yourself in some general math.
I can apply your logic to trading, if i spend an hour setting up orders each week, and make 500 million isk per week, does that mean i make 500 million isk per hour. HELL NO!
You know why, because not everything sells instantly, it takes time when i might NOT BE ACTIVE, JUST AS YOUR MINING DOES.
You logic and bullheaded ignorance to math are quite skewed. Please take your calculations to your math teacher so they too can show the flaws.
Time = isk TOTAL Time = ISK Total Time = Active and inactive time.
L2Maffs |
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Mara Rinn
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
1785
|
Posted - 2012.08.28 22:46:00 -
[41] - Quote
I make a few millions of ISK a day from about thirty seconds of effort. The rest of the time I'm not even logged in. Station trading is so overpowered, yes?
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Anya Ohaya
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
164
|
Posted - 2012.08.28 23:02:00 -
[42] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote:Anya Ohaya wrote:If you can clear a mission in 10-15 minutes and get a good return on your LP then 60 million an hour is possible, but much more demanding in terms of SP, ship cost, and attention. It's extra funny when serious replies basically miss the point by a country mile.
I was agreeing with OP. Not something you see often around here I know. |
Mara Rinn
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
1788
|
Posted - 2012.08.29 21:44:00 -
[43] - Quote
Kaivar Lancer wrote:Try to re-read my original post. You still make 10m per hour from mining. However, to make that 10m, you only need to actively play the game for around 10 minutes per hour. The other 50 minutes can be spent semi-AFK.
So you're really only making 10M ISK/hr, and spending 50 minutes of that hour being an unresponsive target for gankers. It's worth pointing out that you're not going to spend 50 minutes doing nothing, then 10 minutes doing stuff. If you're mining asteroids, you'll be targeting rocks & restarting lasers about once every 2-6 minutes.
One interesting point is that you cannot increase your income by spending more time being active at the keyboard. No matter how much effort you put into it, your mining income is limited by how fast your mining lasers can vacuum up those rocks. Thus your mining income is limited to about 10M ISK per wallclock hour. Sure, you can juggle the numbers by defining "active time" versus "inactive time" and make it look like you're earing far more isk for the time that you are massaging the mouse and keyboard, but mining ends up being just like pouring concrete or painting: you are active for a short time, then you have to sit back and wait for "stuff" to happen.
In project management terms, the critical path is impacted by the non-fungible task of waiting for the lasers to cycle. No matter how many people you put on the job, it still takes nine months to build a baby.
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Vibesz
Odelion Investments
5
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 02:43:00 -
[44] - Quote
Sooo by this logic, Im only half my age because i spent the other sleeping
o7 |
Gu1l7y 5p4rk
Gu1l7y Holdings
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 04:05:00 -
[45] - Quote
Kaivar Lancer wrote:I was doing some basic timing using a stopwatch, and discovered that I spent about 10 minutes per hour of mining, actively doing something in the game. This would be stuff like locking an asteroid, moving cargo, warping, etc.
The other 50 mins was spent semi-afk doing homework on a second monitor.
I mine around 10m isk per hour in my Retriever. So for every active minute I spent in-game, I earnt 1m isk. So for every 60 minutes of "active" mining, I make 60m isk.
So I can say that I make 60m isk per hour from mining.
Pretty neat, eh? Can mission runners boast the same thing? Ok...
You make 60m per active hour of mining. On a 24hr (real) day you're making 240 million isk MAX. That's 1.68b isk in 7 day's. WOAH!
Now, I on the other land live in a world of 24 hours.... YES! 24 of em'! On the 28th of this month I decided to take 2 hours out of my day, since I have so many to spare, to station trade a bit.
I spent 6 minutes setting up orders, then I logged off. An hour later I spent 7 minutes setting up orders, then I logged off.
I woke up on the next 24hr day to find that I had went from 772m isk, to 801m isk... That's a difference of 29m isk... and I only spent 13 minutes doing it. Now, 60 minutes divided by 13 is roughly 4.6... So 4.6 multiplied by 29m isk is 133.4m per day. That's an easy 3.2b per day, or 22.4b per week!
I must say I fell short of that last week, and I'm sure going by your logic, you still didn't get your 1.7b last week either. |
Plaude Pollard
Crimson Cartel
75
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 10:35:00 -
[46] - Quote
Anya Ohaya wrote:If you can clear a mission in 10-15 minutes and get a good return on your LP then 60 million an hour is possible, but much more demanding in terms of SP, ship cost, and attention. Assuming people want to buy you Faction-stuff, that is. Doing L4 missions quickly, though is no problem. Maximize DPS, fit some tank, watch stuff die, rinse and repeat. New to EVE? Want to learn? The Crimson Cartel will train you in the fields of your choice. Mainly active in EU afternoons and evenings. Contact me for more info. |
Ginger Barbarella
State War Academy Caldari State
91
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 15:07:00 -
[47] - Quote
Vibesz wrote:Sooo by this logic, Im only half my age because i spent the other sleeping
o7
Correct.
Wait, wut? |
Kaivar Lancer
General Exports
223
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 15:53:00 -
[48] - Quote
Uh. I've been critted by the sheer stupidity in this thread.
Do you know there are traders in RL who dedicate only 10 minutes each morning to setup their market orders, and then enjoy the rest of the day? It may take 24 hours for those pending orders to trigger, and another 24 hours to reach take-profit or stop loss, whichever is hit first.
Did this trader work for 48 hours for his money?
NO. It only took 10 minutes of labour to setup his orders.
What is wrong with some of you people? |
Tisiphone
Interstellar Armaments and Ammunition Sanctuary Pact
1
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 16:50:00 -
[49] - Quote
Kaivar Lancer wrote:Uh. I've been critted by the sheer stupidity in this thread.
Do you know there are traders in RL who dedicate only 10 minutes each morning to setup their market orders, and then enjoy the rest of the day? It may take 24 hours for those pending orders to trigger, and another 24 hours to reach take-profit or stop loss, whichever is hit first.
Did this trader work for 48 hours for his money?
NO. It only took 10 minutes of labour to setup his orders.
What is wrong with some of you people?
It's called experience of how the world really works and what really goes into those numbers.
Let's use your trader above as an example.
I see you've ignored the time he's had to spend reading the papers and studying the markets so he doesn't set up completely crap trades. Then there's the contacts he has to make and maintain to keep the capital base in place. The time it takes him to get to and from work. The clothing equipment and sundries that he is expected to provide. And the years he spent at college and working to get to be a trader in the first place, learning how it all works, how to be successful at it and the work that needs to be put in to maintain that "edge".
It all adds up .
Likewise in Eve.
I make most of my money with PI. Spend only a few minutes a day settng up production runs and it's easy money that takes almost no time at all right?
Oh - and I also spend maybe 10-12 hours a week dodging P-rats as I haul the PI products back to empire to sell. In fact as far as PI is concerned this is the major timesink. Not setting up PI, but getting the materials to where it can be used.
One big time-monster in mining is hauling the ore back to a suitable station - which is why the Mackinaw with it's huge ore hold is the new "best beloved" of miners everywhere. Bigger hold, fewer runs to base, less time spent hauling. Because every single stage of the mining process is "work", whether it's hauling the ore, getting it or it's product to market and selling it.
BTW there are many people who skip this whole "work" process by just hauling the ore to the nearest station and hitting "sell" to save time - I love people who do that!
The argument in the OP is really just a variation on "minerals I mine myself are free", grotesquely undervaluing your own time and work. You have to look at the whole process, ALL the time you spend to do something, including the preperation and post-work.
You don't have to do that of course. I'll happily buy your ore at the minimum price wherever you happen to be mining it and you can just take your few pennies for the that 10 seconds work you put in................. |
Barakach
R-ISK Shadow Operations.
70
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 17:19:00 -
[50] - Quote
ISK/hour is a loaded value because there are so many variables to account for.
From a throughput standpoint, what is your average ISK/hour over a month?
From a practicality standpoint, what is your ISK/hour while at your keyboard?
There many other ways to measure this same thing and come to different answers, but it really depends on what variables you consider important. |
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Tugrath Akers
Greenhorn Limbo
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 19:48:00 -
[51] - Quote
It takes me 3 minutes to load and set my washing machine then 2 minutes to unload it when it is done. I can do 12 loads of laundry per hour! |
Herr Hammer Draken
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
94
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 22:27:00 -
[52] - Quote
Kaivar Lancer wrote:I was doing some basic timing using a stopwatch, and discovered that I spent about 10 minutes per hour of mining, actively doing something in the game. This would be stuff like locking an asteroid, moving cargo, warping, etc.
The other 50 mins was spent semi-afk doing homework on a second monitor.
I mine around 10m isk per hour in my Retriever. So for every active minute I spent in-game, I earnt 1m isk. So for every 60 minutes of "active" mining, I make 60m isk.
So I can say that I make 60m isk per hour from mining.
Pretty neat, eh? Can mission runners boast the same thing?
But for the other 50 minutes of every hour you are afk and not earning any isk then. So it is costing you isk to mine because of the inactive 50 minutes of every hour that other active players are earning isk.
In the end result you are making a negative isk per hour mining. Because of your inactive wasted time. 50 minutes of every hour. By my math. Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet" |
Elsbeth Taron
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 10:47:00 -
[53] - Quote
Your point is valid in that you pass onto the game the work involved in mining the stuff; your contribution is the mouse clicking as you say. If people counted up the amount of time you interact with the game it would work out as 60Misk/hr of game interaction. The new mining ships with effin big holds ought to boost this further by increasing the time between necessary interaction.
Unfortunately, any topic on the eve forums brings out the social-inepts and plain deranged, vying with each other to write the most 'street' comment. They all succeed in making themselves look like the losers in life they probably are. |
Marcus McTavish
EnC Heavy Industries Rolling Thunder.
42
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 21:10:00 -
[54] - Quote
Kaivar Lancer wrote:Uh. I've been critted by the sheer stupidity in this thread.
Do you know there are traders in RL who dedicate only 10 minutes each morning to setup their market orders, and then enjoy the rest of the day? It may take 24 hours for those pending orders to trigger, and another 24 hours to reach take-profit or stop loss, whichever is hit first.
Did this trader work for 48 hours for his money?
NO. It only took 10 minutes of labour to setup his orders.
What is wrong with some of you people?
Holy Monkey Balls, you nearly proved yourself wrong!!!
While they are only spending 10 minutes, STUFF IS STILL HAPPENING TO HIS MONEY.
In the same way HIS MONEY is still working, SO IS YOUR MINING BARGE.
You are saying that if he spent 20 minutes, his MONEY worked for 24 hours, your MINING BARGE WORKED for an hour.
Now, for the love of all that is precious, PLEASE BE A TROLL!!! I just can't handle the fact people use this brand of logic.
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Kaivar Lancer
General Exports
223
|
Posted - 2012.09.01 10:33:00 -
[55] - Quote
Marcus McTavish wrote:
Holy Monkey Balls, you nearly proved yourself wrong!!!
While they are only spending 10 minutes, STUFF IS STILL HAPPENING TO HIS MONEY.
In the same way HIS MONEY is still working, SO IS YOUR MINING BARGE.
CONGRATS! You've discovered the definition of "active" time! This is the whole point that I've been trying to make. |
FlinchingNinja Kishunuba
Bellum Esca
115
|
Posted - 2012.09.01 15:11:00 -
[56] - Quote
Trading is essentially a non-blocking task as after you set the orders you don't need to interact with them (if you are lucky). The duration of activity is the time taken to set the order. This can also be done in parallel with other actions
When you start mining you have committed to a cycle time which is the duration of activity. When you couple the fact that with mining you need to reprocess/manufacture/sell (which is the trading mentioned above) your whole argument becomes questionable at best. Assuming you are only mining of course.
Couple this with the impact of having to reactivate your mining lasers every cycle time and you will more then likely find that your doing a **** poor job at what ever else your doing. The optimal approach would be to manage your orders while mining plus some PI perhaps.
Not sure why I bothered with this though... |
Marcus McTavish
EnC Heavy Industries Rolling Thunder.
42
|
Posted - 2012.09.02 02:18:00 -
[57] - Quote
Kaivar Lancer wrote:Marcus McTavish wrote:
Holy Monkey Balls, you nearly proved yourself wrong!!!
While they are only spending 10 minutes, STUFF IS STILL HAPPENING TO HIS MONEY.
In the same way HIS MONEY is still working, SO IS YOUR MINING BARGE.
CONGRATS! You've discovered the definition of "active" time! This is the whole point that I've been trying to make.
I am actually loosing faith in all of Mankind!!!
How is this so hard for you to under stand.
You can not skip those 50 minutes in between! Not unless you have a Time Machine, which going by your train of thought, we can dismiss.
EXAMPLE: If i made $50.00 an Hour. And I worked 8 hours per day for 5 days, that would be 40 hours per week. And assuming a 4 Week Month, i would work 160 Hours, correct?
Now if I multiply this together. ($50.00) * (8 Hours) * (5 Days) * (4 Weeks) = $8,000. It would be $8,000 for my 160 hours of work. So I would make $8,000 PER MONTH.
Your logic is: I am only working 160 hours out of the month. But even though I am not workign for the rest of the month. That part should be taken out. (24 hours) * (7 Days) * (4 Weeks) = 672 Hours.
(672) / (160) = 4.2
By your brand of "logic" I can cut out the whole section, where i am not actively working, right?
So that means (4.2) * ($8,000) = $336,000 per month.
Holy Cow, i had no idea i could afford all these things with my new found reservoir of money!!! You managed to QUADRUPLE my income. Thank you soooo much for helping me acquire a 6 Figure income!
On a more Serious note, i just applied your really ****** logic to a real like situation. HUH?!?! Whats that you say, that does not make sense and thats not how rates work? No ******* ****.
Sorry for swearing, I can only try so many times, before i start to lose it.
It makes no difference how much your "active" income is, because there is time in which you are no "active" and you can not just omit that part of the math equation.
On a side note, I hope someone does your Taxes for you. I would hate to see the IRS tell you off worse than i am.
If you still don't get it... I have no idea what you should do with yourself. Reason is human nature.
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Yokai Mitsuhide
Exiled Mining
1424
|
Posted - 2012.09.02 03:20:00 -
[58] - Quote
Kaivar Lancer wrote:Marcus McTavish wrote:
Holy Monkey Balls, you nearly proved yourself wrong!!!
While they are only spending 10 minutes, STUFF IS STILL HAPPENING TO HIS MONEY.
In the same way HIS MONEY is still working, SO IS YOUR MINING BARGE.
CONGRATS! You've discovered the definition of "active" time! This is the whole point that I've been trying to make.
Next time use far less stupid examples when trying to make a point and just get right to the point. You "actively" wasted far to much of my time. |
Mars Theran
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
266
|
Posted - 2012.09.02 04:35:00 -
[59] - Quote
Javajunky wrote:Ginger Barbarella wrote:You want to talk reality? OK, how's this? I bill $150 US$ per hour to work on stuff for my clients on the side. I do that while AFK mining. What do I make in one hour? $150/$35 per GTC = 4 GTC (rounded down) = 8 PLEX, per HOUR.
That's reality. Now, go back to your example, please. It's great - I run the mining fleet in empire when Im working from the home office. Love the productivity
I'm guessing the mining fleet you're running makes more ISK per hour than the given examples.
edit: @ OP: btw; not impressive. You still need to log in for 6 hours to make 60 Million ISK, which is far more time required to make much more than that elsewhere. Even if you are in a Retriever, that's a paltry sum. 10 Million ISK is next to nothing in this game and something most players can make in their first hours of playing. So really, you haven't graduated much beyond the tutorials in terms of ISK making.
I may be a little odd, but I feel that time logged in or time required, no matter how much of it is active, is what really counts when it comes to earning potential. If you were in a race, you'd be losing. I have deleted and cleared my signature 7 times and it still won't go away. |
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
33
|
Posted - 2012.09.02 07:24:00 -
[60] - Quote
Is it just me or has this entire thread dissolved into a e-peen waving contest with wallets? |
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