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It was one big PONZI scheme

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Misty McGinnity	Posted - 2011.03.04 02:12:00 - [91] Edited by: Misty McGinnity on 04/03/2011 02:12:31 Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Basically, the Investee looks like with the ability to successfully honor the bond, with some effort. *Notice how an audit can only evaluate the ability or potential* of an Investee to succesfully honor a bond, not his possibly different real plans.** in other words, i posted some cool graphs, i am biased by the person whom paid for the audit (as its in our best interests) but really everything i do only verifys the account does "some" trading & has "some NAV", i can't be sure of how many accounts the person has, but the API key i was given seems ok "insert disclaimer here" tl:dr audits are useless.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2011.03.04 02:15:00 - [92] Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 04/03/2011 02:17:07 Originally by: Misty McGinnity Edited by: Misty McGinnity on 04/03/2011 02:12:31 Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Basically, the Investee looks like with the ability to successfully honor the bond, with some effort. *Notice how an audit can only evaluate the ability or potential* of an Investee to succesfully honor a bond, not his possibly different real plans.** in other words, i posted some cool graphs, i am biased by the person whom paid for the audit (as its in our best interests) but really everything i do only verifys the account does "some" trading & has "some NAV", i can't be sure of how many accounts the person has, but the API key i was given seems ok "insert disclaimer here" tl:dr audits are useless. I am still waiting for your main to mail me as per the other day's post. Or are you a scammer? The intentions kinda give it out. TL:DR you don't know what an audit is? That is a skill check + optional assets and performance check? Your trolling is worsening lately, maybe because of trying too hard. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Myra2007 Millstone Industries	Posted - 2011.03.04 02:18:00 - [93] The funny thing to me is how - on a forum with an ongoing debate about mistrust and hostility towards new entrepreneurs - grinding rep seems to be the easiest thing in the world. Image cultivation is key and people have shown over and over again that they're desperate to accept pop idols without much ado. People seem to love the idea of this incorruptible man of principles that raised 100's of billions solely by pains and labor maybe because they'd like to be that guy. Curzon Dax is a great (maybe the best) example in my opinion. I wasn't around here much when that happened so I don't know if he had much of an MD presence prior to his scam. But in the other forums he used to present himself as some kind of retired alt of a very influential and wealthy player. As a guy that risks billions in officer mods in his battleship 1v1 contest because it doesn't mean anything to him. A guy that has more isk than he could ever use with the stereotypical contempt that rich people have for money. He was clearly above isk and other petty interests of mere mortals. When he made his parodies his popularity exploded and the rest is history. Did that guy actually ever "do" anything except for self-indulgent (however successful) posing in the forums before people threw some 50b isk his way? You can look at other less flamboyant examples but the principle remains: a few moderately successful ventures and good pr (usually not much more than hollow but persistent chest beating tbh) are everything you need. The mere fact that people actually seriously discuss if audits should or should not be conducted is breathtaking and a testament to the gullibility of many. They should literally be conducted all the time not once or twice in a span of years. I digress however. Before going back to lurking let me say that this has produced very little tears up to now. Also the total scam amount is nebulous and I suspect only mildly worth a 4 year time investment. I don't want to downplay the merits of this heist and I'm sure the OP is a smart guy. However to say that he had to use much cunning to trick people would arguably be a lie. -- Originally by: Professor Slocombe I will only buy tickets if the prize is your stuff and you leave Eve. Forever. You irritating self obsessed cretin.
Cheque Please Hot Like Mexico	Posted - 2011.03.04 02:23:00 - [94] Originally by: Misty McGinnity in other words, i posted some cool graphs, i am biased by the person whom paid for the audit (as its in our best interests) but really everything i do only verifys the account does "some" trading & has "some NAV", i can't be sure of how many accounts the person has, but the API key i was given seems ok "insert disclaimer here" tl:dr audits are useless. It's not VV's fault this was a scam, stop blaming him. MD demands audits, he provides. And even if he did audit Cosmo, VV's working against the tools CCP provides (which, as Cosmo said, can be manipulated). Blame the scammer for scamming, plz --- RL Meeting w/ Chribba
UmadSon	Posted - 2011.03.04 02:24:00 - [95] Edited by: UmadSon on 04/03/2011 02:24:50 rofl you all got owned. so much for being the ONLY trust worthy person. signed YOUR BIGGEST FAN!
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2011.03.04 02:27:00 - [96] Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 04/03/2011 02:28:40 Quote: The mere fact that people actually seriously discuss if audits should or should not be conducted is breathtaking and a testament to the gullibility of many. They should literally be conducted all the time not once or twice in a span of years I agree, but CCP - as usual - gives 99% of the best and fully updated tools to scammers and thieves while the honest people have to deal with 1% of outdated pre-Dominion tools, a laughable joke of API, a laughable joke of API keys that publish your real account ID for everyone to crack, a laughable joke of shares votes that you can artificially tamper with, a laughable joke of BPO lockdown that can be cheated in 1001 ways. Plus, the time to making the above work has a cost. My (auditors') minerals are not free, but few want to pay for the costs in some multi-hours long operation. Result: auditors quit all the time => scammers can do like Cosmo and switch them to hide their tracks. Being constantly flamed by a nebula of idiots does not help either. It takes some forum hardening to endure the many little Mittanis we apparently inherited off CAOD. Most people give up, which - guess the coincidence - is the game of the trolls mains i.e. the scammers to be. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Caldariftw123	Posted - 2011.03.04 02:27:00 - [97] Originally by: UmadSon Edited by: UmadSon on 04/03/2011 02:24:50 rofl you all got owned. so much for being the ONLY trust worthy person. signed YOUR BIGGEST FAN! Who got 'owned' ? We're not even sure how much isk he actually "stole" tbh, he said himself he ran a legitimate business for 130odd billion isk, how much isk was actually stolen? How much debt has he left behind? .. and who the **** said anything about "the ONLY trust worthy person" ? Your troll is weak, son.
Ceroth	Posted - 2011.03.04 02:33:00 - [98] This theft is halarious, ooo he took 100 bil? and? who gives a flying rats butt about 100 bil from a bunch of self obsorbed people who believed so highly in their audit system that it could not fail. WHERE IS YOUR AUDIT PROOF NOW! Kind of sad his souls value is only 100-150 bil..... hes cheap... ill take 2 of him to go please.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2011.03.04 02:39:00 - [99] Originally by: Ceroth This theft is halarious, ooo he took 100 bil? and? who gives a flying rats butt about 100 bil from a bunch of self obsorbed people who believed so highly in their audit system that it could not fail. WHERE IS YOUR AUDIT PROOF NOW! Kind of sad his souls value is only 100-150 bil..... hes cheap... ill take 2 of him to go please. Switched to another alt because you can't to reply to my question above? - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
cosmoray Cosmoray Holdings Corp	Posted - 2011.03.04 02:39:00 - [100] The take wasn't massive by any means. I left with total debts of 99.5B: Cosmoray Holdings Bond = 40B Private Bond = 59.5B Plus a few others that folded. The profits over the long term with all the scams was maybe 30B, but I also made money with the scam proceeds so I am not actually sure of the realistic take (pure scam profit after dividends). Total profits (net after dividends) over time utilizing (IER, loans, patch trading, etc) the stolen ISK was in excess of 200B ISK. But, as stated the ponzi scheme was always growing needing more food to feed itself. If you had invested early it is likely that you got most (over 100% if invested at start) of your money back via dividends. Wasn't really the amount that I was interested in, it was the manipulation and playing the long con. Problem was it got boring.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2011.03.04 02:46:00 - [101] Originally by: cosmoray The take wasn't massive by any means. I left with total debts of 99.5B: Cosmoray Holdings Bond = 40B Private Bond = 59.5B Plus a few others that folded. The profits over the long term with all the scams was maybe 30B, but I also made money with the scam proceeds so I am not actually sure of the realistic take (pure scam profit after dividends). Total profits (net after dividends) over time utilizing (IER, loans, patch trading, etc) the stolen ISK was in excess of 200B ISK. But, as stated the ponzi scheme was always growing needing more food to feed itself. If you had invested early it is likely that you got most (over 100% if invested at start) of your money back via dividends. Wasn't really the amount that I was interested in, it was the manipulation and playing the long con. Problem was it got boring. I recall people like Flakeys invested in Zigzag industries. How did you manage to quietly shut it down without paying? Because I am quite sure Flakeys would not stay silent if he lost the good billions he put into that. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
mechtech SRS Industries SRS.	Posted - 2011.03.04 02:47:00 - [102] I can't help but think you could have taken this to a higher level. Kind of like when Curzon Dax opened a giant bond, and then convoed each individual investor saying that someone pulled out and an extra slot was opened, netting an extra 100b. 3 years of work just to burn out? Well I guess burn out isn't something that you can stop, but still... The best part is when people slowly realize that something is not right, but by that time they already have 150B more for a titan fund or whatever they're peddling.
cosmoray Cosmoray Holdings Corp	Posted - 2011.03.04 02:48:00 - [103] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Originally by: cosmoray The take wasn't massive by any means. I left with total debts of 99.5B: Cosmoray Holdings Bond = 40B Private Bond = 59.5B Plus a few others that folded. The profits over the long term with all the scams was maybe 30B, but I also made money with the scam proceeds so I am not actually sure of the realistic take (pure scam profit after dividends). Total profits (net after dividends) over time utilizing (IER, loans, patch trading, etc) the stolen ISK was in excess of 200B ISK. But, as stated the ponzi scheme was always growing needing more food to feed itself. If you had invested early it is likely that you got most (over 100% if invested at start) of your money back via dividends. Wasn't really the amount that I was interested in, it was the manipulation and playing the long con. Problem was it got boring. I recall people like Flakeys invested in Zigzag industries. How did you manage to quietly shut it down without paying? Because I am quite sure Flakeys would not stay silent if he lost the good billions he put into that. I used some IER profits to close it down. Cosmoray "stepped in" for the sake of the bond and personally paid out the bond holders. After the payout that was when "WE" released the collateral.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2011.03.04 02:50:00 - [104] Originally by: cosmoray I used some IER profits to close it down. Cosmoray "stepped in" for the sake of the bond and personally paid out the bond holders. So, in the end the investment turned out not being a scam in itself and investors did not lose money? - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
cosmoray Cosmoray Holdings Corp	Posted - 2011.03.04 02:55:00 - [105] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Originally by: cosmoray I used some IER profits to close it down. Cosmoray "stepped in" for the sake of the bond and personally paid out the bond holders. So, in the end the investment turned out not being a scam in itself and investors did not lose money? If I robbed a bank this week for $75,000, but paid it all back next week do you think I could avoid going to prison for 15 years?
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2011.03.04 03:08:00 - [106] Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 04/03/2011 03:12:20 Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 04/03/2011 03:11:52 Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 04/03/2011 03:09:41 Originally by: cosmoray If I robbed a bank this week for $75,000, but paid it all back next week do you think I could avoid going to prison for 15 years? See, I could technically quote the audit disclaimer: Quote: Notice how an audit can only evaluate the ability or potential of an Investee to succesfully honor a bond, not his possibly different real plans. rightfully blame the poor means auditors got to try do their job and so on. But if the investors have not lost money - despite the overall result of the ponzi is a scam - THEIR specific case did not end up wrong. THEIR specific case is what regards me. They did not get scammed. This relieves me, because I'd feel bad for Flakeys and Emmgel, but also tells me that the whole secured + audited investment architecture actually has been a local success more than if nothing had been in place. Therefore that investment framework in the substance worked despite a scammer being behind it. Therefore the trolls have much less meat to chew upon. I challenge them to have achieved that. The price to force that mechanism would have been very unfavorable because even if you simulated an investee disappearance or scam, then you'd be at stake to pay back (collateral holder). Not doing so would have burned you 2 years ago. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Emperor Cheney Celebrity Sex Tape	Posted - 2011.03.04 03:23:00 - [107] Shock, horror, never again, just a few bad apples, etc Just like real life investing!
Krythas	Posted - 2011.03.04 03:31:00 - [108] Well played sir :-) And for all the rabid people crying 'told you so' - seriously, who cares ? As an investor you invest what you are willing to lose. If you lose it life goes on. Personally, I've given more than I invested away to corpmates, newbies and other randoms that I've felt sorry for. / now sitting back and stealing kalrands popcorn.
Emperor Cheney Celebrity Sex Tape	Posted - 2011.03.04 03:34:00 - [109] "Investors" in MD are just roleplayers too dumb to realize they're roleplaying. There is a structural bias in EVE game and metagame mechanics towards scamming.
Misty McGinnity	Posted - 2011.03.04 03:41:00 - [110] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Your trolling is worsening lately, maybe because of trying too hard. lol, trying to hard? trolling the auditor of a ponzi is easy. Especially when the scammer names YOU. whats hard about this? also its friday afternoon here & its a madhouse :\
Amarr Citizen 155 Nordar Innovations.	Posted - 2011.03.04 03:47:00 - [111] If only you all had listened to me last summer.
Misty McGinnity	Posted - 2011.03.04 03:50:00 - [112] Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155 If only you all had listened to me last summer. you have time to dig up posts etc but not enough time to payout E**** investors? GTFO nerd.
Ave Volta Black Frog Logistics Red-Frog	Posted - 2011.03.04 04:37:00 - [113] I find this a boring and uninteresting end to an entity which had some considerable value attached to them. Characters can be thought of as corporations that hold considerable value in name alone through their ability to attract capital and organize new ventures or partnerships. The unfortunate thing about scamming is that it effectively erases all of that value, and there's no going back. All scams/con jobs are essentially the same with only technical variations. Some are obviously executed more skillfully than others, but in the end, deception is the only key skill. It's considerably less impressive then being able to successfully sustain a viable business through time. In regards to the viability of audits; I think this is yet another example that audits are a tool with a with a limited scope and ability to inform. They are somewhat useful for capturing a snapshot of some current and past activity, but can this can be circumvented due to deceptive allocation of assests as has been shown here. Even if there was a mechanism for continuous monitoring of assets scammers would soon devise ways to launder isk etc... Security is always weak and almost meaningless without a justice and enforcement system. Security systems are structured systems with defined procedures and rules which means they can easily be broken and circumvented. All you need to understand is where the weaknessess lie and exploit. -------------------------------- RED FROG ALLIANCE: Here, There, and Everywhere.
Machete Visor	Posted - 2011.03.04 04:44:00 - [114] dunno, mostly tl:dr.... anyway, 4 years to take in 30b or something of that magnitude (or any magnitude) hardly seems worth it. painless 1hr a day station trading can earn you 3b per month. x 48 months = 144b over 4 years. yawn nothing to see here except someone playing a meta-game basically with themselves.
Kalrand GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2011.03.04 04:59:00 - [115] Originally by: LeonessDarkpaw Originally by: Kalrand You're an idiot who didn't read what he posted. Thankfully no one cares what you think. Thankfully no one knows who you are. Originally by: cosmoray If I robbed a bank this week for $75,000, but paid it all back next week do you think I could avoid going to prison for 15 years? 75 Thousand? No. 7.5 Billion? Yes. Vote KALRAND for CSM!
SencneS Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks	Posted - 2011.03.04 05:16:00 - [116] Edited by: SencneS on 04/03/2011 05:18:14 Selene - It matters not why he is on the list, it's that he is "Already on the Thieves of EVE" list. Stop focusing on the wrong thing.. Amarr for Life
Liberty Eternal	Posted - 2011.03.04 05:19:00 - [117] Originally by: Machete Visor yawn nothing to see here except someone playing a meta-game basically with themselves. Let's hope he gives himself away by getting too clever.
AtheistOfFail Caldari	Posted - 2011.03.04 05:21:00 - [118] Bad Bobby Cosmoray Who will be next?
Liang Nuren	Posted - 2011.03.04 05:37:00 - [119] Originally by: AtheistOfFail Bad Bobby Cosmoray Who will be next? OOH! MEE! MEE! Someone give me a billion! -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
Yukon Kornelius	Posted - 2011.03.04 05:54:00 - [120] Hmmmm, Maybe at some point people will come to realize that audits are near worthless at preventing scams. I tried to make this point in December but was of denounced as being a scammer. Can audits verify abilities and claims of item possession? Yes. Can audits verify intentions? No. and, IMHO, since audits can't verify intentions they are of marginal utility at best. Regards, Yukon Kornelius

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