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Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
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Posted - 2011.03.04 12:01:00 -
[151]
 Originally by: RAW23
I don't know about that. For a sub 20bil investment pool, with fairly minimal controls on your investment and adjusting for scams you can make something like 4-5% per month, if I remember the figures correctly. The effort involved in placing these funds would be pretty minimal and the returns would compare quite favourably to something like running a research/copy farm in terms of isk:effort. Whilst you can certainly do more with the isk, the problem is, for myself anyway, that I run out of time to do the active earning things before I run out of isk. So left to choose amongst a small field of passive/semi-passive income streams MD investing is a good use for at least a chunk of it. As I said, though, getting above a mid sized investment pool in a sensible way is difficult and I would tend to turn to other avenues to take the rest of my isk. But the 20 or so bil that can be placed will yield better returns than many other options (including T2 BPOs).
That is interesting, thanks. If a player has very large amounts of isk lying around, that does seem like a logical place to park 20 billion. I would expect that sort of player to be fairly rare, though.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.03.04 12:48:00 -
[152]
Quote:
The game mechanics do not enable any real auditing to occur. I cannot change that, because I am not a dev
The RL mechanics do not enable any hope to get rid off criminals as well, even if they can be tracked and jailed. I cannot change that, because I am not a god.
Yet the police still exists.
Why? Because the police WILL catch the millions of small thieves, scammers and similar, even if they can do nothing against the big smart criminals heads.
Quote:
I agree it is possible to make isk by investing. I do not agree that it is possible to make useful amounts of isk by investing for the effort.
You are quoting someone who made double digit billions in MD, just FYI.
Originally by: Magnu Stormhawk
Also thanks for not preaching too much like those rejects who think they are cool for 'scamming to teach MD a lesson'.
You're still a scumbag of course
I dare say that scamming became so obvious and ubiquitous that in order to feel pro, people should achieve and gloat about reaching the objective of not scamming.
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Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read
http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.03.04 12:54:00 -
[153]
Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 04/03/2011 12:56:00
So, since suspiciously none bothered, I took the liberty to go dig the original audit thread:
Peculiar things:
Originally by: cosmoray
Q: Will I allow an API audit?
A: No. Sorry but I am not keen on anyone looking through my account details no matter what the reputation
This is the scammer mantra. It's their blueprint.
Notice how they ALL say auditing is useless yet ALL post the above?
Other golden nuggets:
Originally by: dael'vras
I'm also rather concerned at the sloppiness of the investors you have so far who haven't insisted on ANY checks at all and seem to be relying purely on the fact that you've been 'around' for a bit. The 'institutional' investors at least should know better.
Originally by: YouGotRipped
TBH, I see no reason why Kazuo shouldn't be allowed to take a look at your dealings / chars. I've trusted him with my info in the past and he's reliable and most professional in his reports
There are more interesting interwines between this and other characters in that thread and those plastic rep made investees.
Is there a "master of puppets" under so many scamming faces alternating in the last years?
One day he'll get tired and will reveal how smart he was, as he played 1000 faces and roles. There are such guys in RL as well.
Audit text:
This shows:
- how back at the time auditing was still at its infancy. The biggest bother was to make sure there was no BAWWWWWW! Riethe in their accounts.
- how audits are FAR from perfect but that "quick audits" seem to be worse as they tend to be superficial.
- how accepting limited API keys and believing on some investee word (because he got REP!) does no good. So much for the "just few accounts quick audits".
- how Kazuo Ishiguro was not *that* fooled as Cosmoray seems to imply:
Quote:
He has also claimed ownership of a third account
Quote:
He says that it might or might not be involved with the IPO
Quote:
I think that's all I have to say that falls within the scope of what the API can tell me.
If it had been today, the investors would not have blindly accepted such limited information.
Just see what happened when Block Ulkx stated he's going to seclude assets on a separate account: it did not end up well.
Back at the time, HE GOT REP, therefore no one raised an eyebrow.
Also notice in the thread the welcome presence of guest stars like: YGR, Bad Bobby, Manalapan, Kazzac Elentria... and others. It was really a giant circle jerk. That was the MD Elite.
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Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read
http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.03.04 13:31:00 -
[154]
lawl
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Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.03.04 13:32:00 -
[155]
vv still fighting the war against in-game crime i see
but guuuuuuuuys, stealing pretend money is wrong!
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.03.04 13:40:00 -
[156]
Originally by: Weaselior
vv still fighting the war against in-game crime i see
but guuuuuuuuys, stealing pretend money is wrong!
It's still property or at least intellectual property.
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Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read
http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Kalrand
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.03.04 13:47:00 -
[157]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
And guess how many CSM candidates are going to talk about EvE missing half of the sandbox (the good people's half)? ZERO.
I can assure you that if there was a way to "punish" other characters outside of shooting their ships, that it would be abused to punish people for far more than financial crimes.
Vote KALRAND for CSM! |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.03.04 14:03:00 -
[158]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Originally by: Weaselior
vv still fighting the war against in-game crime i see
but guuuuuuuuys, stealing pretend money is wrong!
It's still property or at least intellectual property.
holy lawl isk as intellectual property you've hit new depths of ******edness on this one
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Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.03.04 14:05:00 -
[159]
actually i'd like to hear more could you elaborate on the intellectual property argument, community isn't on this week and I need some laughs
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Evil Aye
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Posted - 2011.03.04 14:21:00 -
[160]
Quote:
CCP's intellectual property
Slave |
Raid'En
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Posted - 2011.03.04 14:24:00 -
[161]
Originally by: Selene D'Celeste
This whole story seems a bit ..... haphazard, fabricated, something? Any chance that the story you posted is fabricated and there is another reason you don't have any ISK left?
The truth will out.
if he took 4 year to steal 30b there's for sure something wrong heres
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** Wormhole Trading ** |
Amarr Citizen 155
Nordar Innovations.
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Posted - 2011.03.04 14:52:00 -
[162]
God damn VV, you're so confused/jaded about the "MD Elite" that you'll name anyone that's been on here for 2-3 years as an "MD Elite". It's quite a short list but since you don't have on a ring like this one /me quickly flashes an ass hole shaped ring, I guess it would be near impossible for you to know who is actually an "MD Elite".
**** even Cosmoray isn't an "MD Elite" anymore, not since he stopped paying dues.
P.S. I'm slightly screwing with you, but mostly screwing with everyone.
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flakeys
The Great cornholio's
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Posted - 2011.03.04 14:57:00 -
[163]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Originally by: cosmoray
I used some IER profits to close it down. Cosmoray "stepped in" for the sake of the bond and personally paid out the bond holders.
So, in the end the investment turned out not being a scam in itself and investors did not lose money?
Did you see me post about a loss?If i loose i post even if it's only 200 mille 
Still reading through this pile of posts but i got to say this surprised me for once cosmo.Welcome to the *******club i guess.Now just file an application with pandemic legion or dirty rotten scoundrels and it's complete.
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SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
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Posted - 2011.03.04 15:05:00 -
[164]
Originally by: Emperor Cheney
That is interesting, thanks. If a player has very large amounts of isk lying around, that does seem like a logical place to park 20 billion. I would expect that sort of player to be fairly rare, though.
While I do like your attitude, a supporter of Audits are an illusion ideology. I have to inform you that people that "invest", no that's not right term... People that GAMBLE on a another persons honesty around here actually DO have 20B to park somewhere.
Yes, the population sample is small compared to EVE, but around here most people have ISK to park, even if they are actively playing the game. I'm telling you this because your corp name make be laugh and your understanding of fruitless efforts audits perform. Now watch me get flamed by those that support audits.. LOL
Amarr for Life |
flakeys
The Great cornholio's
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Posted - 2011.03.04 15:18:00 -
[165]
Edited by: flakeys on 04/03/2011 15:25:34
Originally by: Emperor Cheney
I agree it is possible to make isk by investing. I do not agree that it is possible to make useful amounts of isk by investing for the effort.
I have made over 40 B in 1.5 years time max on MD with investing.Saying investing does not pay well is wrong HOWEVER the rates have gone from 10% to 4% so i will agree it is a lot less attractive these days.I currently have about 50B still placed with some people -mostly raw23 - but at this point keep a large amount of isk in my own pocket even if i am not playing the game since recently i do not have the faith/will any more to risk it all.
From the gained itnerest i am just adding it to game time.Currently i can play till somewhere mid next year and i will keep doing it this way.So in case i would get burned with a scam at this point i can still play for year/years and have a large stockpile to immedialty do as i please when/if i return to playing eve.
Originally by: Weaselior
vv still fighting the war against in-game crime i see
but guuuuuuuuys, stealing pretend money is wrong!
That's one vision , my vision is feeling the need to stealpretend money is just stupid and sadd.Now if you would steal RL i would find that a lot more logical .
Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155
P.S. I'm slightly screwing with you, but mostly screwing with everyone.
I allways like it when you screw me and call me bad names hunk
On a sidenote the MD elite was a brand used before the forum move.Cosmo didn't belong to it and neither did my loving hunk AC , hell AC just came around the corner before the move.Hey i got an idea ACc maybe you learn cosmo some poker since your poker ipo did manage to be verry succesfull.
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Darrigaaz
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Posted - 2011.03.04 16:10:00 -
[166]
I am disappoint. 
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.03.04 16:10:00 -
[167]
Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 04/03/2011 16:13:02
Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155
I guess it would be near impossible for you to know who is actually an "MD Elite".
I have many limits and defects, possibly more than most others, but I am expecially proud of two of them:
- my inability to understand why someone would scam, expecially in a game. Not the shallow "why" tied to gaining some Monopoly money, but the inner, deep "why" about they feel doing the very act. What suddenly rots and make them become like that.
- my inability to properly know, be, pertain to MD Elites. I have to be too much of a peasant to get to that. Sorry, my fault.
Originally by: SencneS
I have to inform you that people that "invest", no that's not right term... People that GAMBLE on a another persons honesty around here actually DO have 20B to park somewhere.
Did you know that in England (due to tax reasons) one of the most important forms of retail investing is called "Spread betting"?
Nothing new to see here. It's all calculated risk, once again both in EvE and in RL.
Both in EvE and in RL many get burned, but not all. Flakeys above and Raw23, Taram Caldar, Emmgel are but some examples of people who intelligently managed risk.
The fun thing is that in my half a year old Experiment #01: RL finance analysis applied to EvE I posted this very article: "2) Sound risk management".
If only people would care about what is harshly learned from RL and then freely given to them on a silver platter.
There is even this prophetic piece:
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Finally, don't trust investees that refuse to get an audit. EVEN GODS SCAM IN EVE, be brave and demand the only, even if tiny, little filter against obvious scam.
Of course this is an apparent conflict of interest off mine, since I am an auditor.
Apparent, because in reality if there is something I am not interested doing any more is exactly this thankless routine without glory.
But hey, in any case, why should someone get your billions without giving you anything back, not even a bland information about who he is and if he can actually do what he claims?
-
Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read
http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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flakeys
The Great cornholio's
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Posted - 2011.03.04 16:34:00 -
[168]
Edited by: flakeys on 04/03/2011 16:35:00
Originally by: Brock Nelson
On a more serious note, this just proves one thing. Everyone has a price.
I don't give a **** if you say you're a honest person, you're a trustworthy third party, either way you're going to scam. Everyone has a price, its just a matter of figuring out what it is.
I know Grendell's got a price.
I know Chribba's got a price.
Whats yours?
Said this a lot of times.It is not IF someone will scam but how much you think his price will be when investing.Something wich is extremely hard to do specifically if they are also getting funds not mentioned on MD hence why i repeatedly ask people to mention loans on MD.
There are verry few who will not be tempted by isk.I can a 100% sure say that i would not for any amount of isk simply because when i had over 100 B it did add nothing i didn't have at 10 B regarding enjoying the game to my liking , have enough allready to play eve for a freaking long time with GTC and the expensive eve toys i have allmost never undock because flying an uberexpensive ship for pvp these days with the blob warfare would have no impact on my k/d ratio.
That said when investing i allways expect it to be lost but with some people you find the likelyhood a lot smaller.A lot of times you can be proven wrong though .
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.03.04 16:55:00 -
[169]
Originally by: flakeys
...and the expensive eve toys i have allmost never undock because flying an uberexpensive ship for pvp these days with the blob warfare would have no impact on my k/d ratio.
Flakeys, today I lived a terrific and cheap day with some guys of Wildly Inappropriate. There's no need to have the super-pimp nor to go deep in 0.0. In fact they came to hi sec.
You can too.
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Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read
http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Ambo
I've Got Nothing
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Posted - 2011.03.04 17:38:00 -
[170]
Well this is sad. Luckily I had already got a little twitchy a few months back. (Bad luck to you guys who bought the stake btw )
Just goes to show (yet again) - if it's not collateralised, don't expect to get it back.
--------------------------------------
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Fleshbot
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Posted - 2011.03.04 18:08:00 -
[171]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Many words
This is my final say on audits. Consider an audit a life vest. It is provides no guarantee against hypothermia, starvation, attacks by sharks, but it does protect you from drowning.
An audit provides SOME protection, not 100% but enough that it dissuades some people from scamming and catches a very, very few. Mostly though it is a red flag, since an audit can cause no real harm to you, why would you skip one?
So the question for those claiming that audits are useless is, do you want less protection or more. I'm acknowledging it isn't 100% but it is some about greater than 0%.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.03.04 18:08:00 -
[172]
Originally by: Ambo
Well this is sad. Luckily I had already got a little twitchy a few months back. (Bad luck to you guys who bought the stake btw )
Just goes to show (yet again) - if it's not collateralised, don't expect to get it back.
Well, to be technical, you bought low and sold high. Very high. Just before the crash where shares become face value of 0.01 penny.
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Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read
http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
|
SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
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Posted - 2011.03.04 18:14:00 -
[173]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Did you know that in England (due to tax reasons) one of the most important forms of retail investing is called "Spread betting"? Nothing new to see here. It's all calculated risk, once again both in EvE and in RL.
Both in EvE and in RL many get burned, but not all.
Mitigating overall risk is almost always why someone would park a load of cash somewhere. It doesn't surprise me some try to distribute their investments around in EVE. I don't fully agree with that, only because the deposit records I have from two large customer bases across two system would indicate that a good number of people subscribe to the "Keeping your eggs in one basket" approach when it comes to EVE.
In fact the sociological aspect of EVE supports this ideology. "TRUST NO ONE!!" However, when you get to the point you can start trusting someone enough to invest in them, people will often dump into that single point. Mostly because they trust that person and no one else.
It's hard to distribute risk when you trust no one, and want to invest. The more you invest in others the much higher you are at exposing yourself to any loss, this is especially apparent in EVE. It's a thin line, personally the best way to mitigate risk is to literally only invest in yourself.
While I have invested in others over the years and made a healthy return, I changed that, and wouldn't/don't invest in anything else unless it was for a good cause or something I believed would be a benefit to the community. I've always viewed those investments as a one time payment for a service I hope will continue, rather then an investment that gains value. I now only have one investment entity, BSAC, I am the largest holder of MRDs in the BSA Exchange because I very much like the idea of a commodity currency. The remainder of my investment in there is sitting in the Cash Reserve program, purely because of ISK I had available from selling some Mineral indices which I also liked the idea of and wanted to support the concept..
Don't take that as an endorsement though, I didn't mention this to promote that entity, but as an example of the way I view investments. It just so happens that public investment wise, "all my eggs are in one basket". This wouldn't be the case if someone else had come up with Commodity Currency, or Mineral Indices before Block.
Amarr for Life |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
|
Posted - 2011.03.04 18:29:00 -
[174]
Originally by: SencneS
In fact the sociological aspect of EVE supports this ideology. "TRUST NO ONE!!" However, when you get to the point you can start trusting someone enough to invest in them, people will often dump into that single point. Mostly because they trust that person and no one else.
This is not just in EvE.
Since I started RL trading, I get a number of people knocking at my door / phone asking what they should invest in.
I am just a part time retail trader yet people address me as "you that know finance...". Point 1)
They ask me about what bond or similar security is the best for them. Point 2)
Finally they want to hand me money so I do it for them. Point 3)
Point 1) They trust someone just because it's been said to them by someone else. I could be a blasted scammer and yet they blindly ask me.
Point 2) They not only trust with no proof, they ask about things that someone does not even trade. I don't trade bonds (well, Z-Bonds future, but it's not the regular bonds how they intend).
Point 3) They not only trust and ask what's possibly not known well, they also blindly hand out money.
EvE = RL, oh if they are.
Quote:
because the deposit records I have from two large customer bases across two system would indicate that a good number of people subscribe to the "Keeping your eggs in one basket" approach when it comes to EVE.
They are bad investors. It's expected off them, they are employees in RL and for some inexplicable reason, none teaches people how important is to safeguard their own wallets.
They will teach you at school all sorts of useless garbage but NOT how to save money.
Quote:
This wouldn't be the case if someone else had come up with Commodity Currency, or Mineral Indices before Block.
When he started, EvE was a different game for a different playerbase.
Nowadays finding people to faithfully believe in you and grow such a large operation would be next to impossible.
The game deteriorated as well, going mainstream = get full of bad humanity specimens which in turn slowly transformed EvE in what it is now, including in the investments & trust departments.
-
Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read
http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
|
flakeys
The Great cornholio's
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Posted - 2011.03.04 18:37:00 -
[175]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Originally by: flakeys
...and the expensive eve toys i have allmost never undock because flying an uberexpensive ship for pvp these days with the blob warfare would have no impact on my k/d ratio.
Flakeys, today I lived a terrific and cheap day with some guys of Wildly Inappropriate. There's no need to have the super-pimp nor to go deep in 0.0. In fact they came to hi sec.
You can too.
Wich is what i meant VV , if i can pvp in a regular drake why do i need a cynabal.Why need a fully faction fit cnr for a mission my tengu can do with as much ease.
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Molic Blackbird
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Posted - 2011.03.04 19:04:00 -
[176]
From the original Audit done by Kazuo Ishiguro:
Quote:
He has an appropriate collection of T1 ship blueprints, mostly in research at the present time.
I have not seen evidence of any recent ship sales either by the corp or any of the characters on the 1st account, but this is probably because, as indicated by the corp's delivered job records, many of his ship blueprints have been researched extensively over the last couple of months.
Cosmoray stated he passed the audit by using BPCs instead of Originals. If they were mostly in research, how could they have been copies?
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Jita Bloodtear
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Posted - 2011.03.04 19:23:00 -
[177]
While it's more of an ideological argument you're making, you shouldn't take it so personally Vaerah. I don't think anyone would seriously finger you here for causing this. We all KNOW audits don't provide security, they only provide more information so investors can make better informed decisions. It's not the job of the auditor to guarantee a scamless investment, only to provide this information to investors. You did your job, it can't possibly be your fault
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Full Explanation of the Industry Index System |
Mas Cream
Monetary Allocation Certified Securities Inc. II
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Posted - 2011.03.04 19:35:00 -
[178]
This was a fun read.
I'm going to incorporate a few things into my new IPO from here.
Buy Shares in Eve Online's First FAKE SCAM! |
cosmoray
Cosmoray Holdings Corp
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Posted - 2011.03.04 19:44:00 -
[179]
Blimey VV do you work for the Pope?
Your world sounds awfully perfect without any errors. It must be difficult to step out of the house and deal with the peons who can't survive in your perfect world.
Have you ever let your hair down?
Laughed when a bird crapped on someone?
Got drunk, puked in the street?
Found a $10 bill on the street and not immediately handed it to the police or gave it to charity?
Isn't it boring living a perfect life?
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Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
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Posted - 2011.03.04 19:59:00 -
[180]
Originally by: cosmoray
Isn't it boring living a perfect life?
When you gonna give up this charade and let the truth out?
Too many people know for you to portray it as anything else.
Not in the Exchange, don't invest! |
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