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Varo Jan
Caravanserai Consulting
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Posted - 2011.03.05 06:37:00 -
[241]
Originally by: Emperor Cheney I would like what audits do occur to not be done by cheerleaders who can't parse data, and also not represent things the auditor cannot back up. More importantly, I would like audits that highlight their own (extreme) limitations.
I haven't actually gone over VV's audits...
You're making comments based on zero facts. Read some audits, then draw conclusions.
Quote: Basically, I want people to have much, much less faith in the efficacy of audits. Currently, we have a blind faith situation. I agree an audit could stop obvious scams. However, I think that's just about it. I do not believe the MD community or the auditors realize this, or are willing to accept that.
You're making assumptions again. There is no blind faith. There is an understanding of the limitations of an MD style audit. That's my take. Personally, as an auditor, I'm well aware of the limitations. However, I do believe they serve a useful purpose, and I know that scammers and potential scammers will take every opportunity to diss audits. There are ways to make them more effective, such as ensuring more data is made available prior to an audit. Another is to have ongoing performance audits.
Bear in mind that audits are one way of raising the bar. There are others such as BPO lockdowns. Have you noticed how people are now trying to claim lockdowns are useless? They're not, if implemented properly, but that's the last thing a scammer would want.
Originally by: Emperor Cheney I think that is unfortunate, as the faith in the strength of the auditing process is one component to why people get scammed here over and over.
Not so. The major scams were never audited. Quite a while back a couple of people analysed offerings and showed that the vast majority of audited offerings had not resulted in scams.
On another note, I suspect that many so-called scams were really due to burnout or incompetent management. Thing is, in this asinine environment, it is considered kewl to say, "I planned to scam all along" rather than saying, "Sorry, guys, I just couldn't manage it."
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Graic Valente
Gallente Valente Galactic Enterprises
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Posted - 2011.03.05 07:16:00 -
[242]
"Cosmo Alt!" is now a registered trademark of Valente Galactic Enterprises.
Any time you scream it out in a thread send 10 million ISK to this character.
Thanks.
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Florestan Bronstein
Amarr Taishi Combine
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Posted - 2011.03.05 07:39:00 -
[243]
Originally by: Caldariftw123 EULA violating issues are things we cannot account for, and that if caught CCP might BAN for, as opposed to scamming which is fine.
FTFY
It is well known that account sharing is de facto tolerated by CCP as long as no conflicts over the ownership of accounts or assets arise.
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Liberty Eternal
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Posted - 2011.03.05 08:58:00 -
[244]
Originally by: Florestan Bronstein MD crowd is gathered around a dead body. Cheney: "he's dead, let's call the mortician" Caldariftw123: "that's not constructive. Why do you say that?" Cheney: "he's objectively dead" SencneS: "We should dress him up in some fancy clothing and make sure he has somebody to talk to all day" Caldariftw123: "look, at least she is trying to help" Cheney: "you auditors told everyone you had kept him alive... now see what you've done! they all suffer from idiotic delusions" VV: "I never said he couldn't be dead - look here shows big sheet of paper: 'the auditor only guarantees that this body exists. Anything else is pure speculation.'. I only said "he might be alive." and that was just the tl;dr version of my report." Caldariftw123: "now get off your high horse, Cheney, and please help us or get out. This guy points to body has an important business meeting tomorrow and we have to make sure he's in shape when he gets there." Cheney: /facepalm
Here's a joke for you:
Why did the socialist study epistemology?
He didn't, that's why he's a socialist.
The only role of the auditor is to make known those things that can be known, because it's better to know what we can than not to know it.
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Corcyrus Endymion
Caldari Excessum Corporation Excessum Gaming
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Posted - 2011.03.05 09:19:00 -
[245]
Edited by: Corcyrus Endymion on 05/03/2011 09:21:42
Originally by: Brock Nelson On a more serious note, this just proves one thing. Everyone has a price.
I don't give a **** if you say you're a honest person, you're a trustworthy third party, either way you're going to scam. Everyone has a price, its just a matter of figuring out what it is.
I know Grendell's got a price. I know Chribba's got a price. Whats yours?
Just saying, yes everyone has a price. But if someones price can be met in an online space ship game....
Also, not surprised but I am a tad dissapoint son, in this whole situation. I frankly wonder how this reflects on people, spending so much time setting up a pointless ingame scam...
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Hel O'Ween
Men On A Mission
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Posted - 2011.03.05 09:50:00 -
[246]
Originally by: The Mattius
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha I have many limits and defects, possibly more than most others, but I am expecially proud of two of them:
- my inability to understand why someone would scam, expecially in a game. Not the shallow "why" tied to gaining some Monopoly money, but the inner, deep "why" about they feel doing the very act. What suddenly rots and make them become like that.
This also interests me. I am far from perfect in game or in real life, but i have not and never would scam, even when the game mechanics are so readily set up for people to do so.
I would feel no differently stealing someones ISK or assets in game, than i would helping myself to the contents of their wallet in RL.
I guess i am also rather odd in this respect
You're not alone.
I'm trying to be as honest and true to myself as possible. Because EVE's a game without consequences, I can live that attitude to my full liking, whereas in RL sometimes facts trump ideals. My career has come to a hold, because I don't shut up when I feel something's wrong, regardless of who my opposite is. Not too many superiors appreciate that. -- EVEWalletAware - an offline wallet manager |
Kalrand
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.03.05 10:16:00 -
[247]
You know know what would be hilarious?
If cosmo paid another dividend on his ****.
That would sent everyone into a tailspin.
Vote KALRAND for CSM! |
Caldariftw123
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Posted - 2011.03.05 11:06:00 -
[248]
Edited by: Caldariftw123 on 05/03/2011 11:09:02
Originally by: Emperor Cheney
Originally by: Caldariftw123
As for my own posts .. wtf, seriously, we spoke about audits and I questioned you about your reasons behind it, why you are bothering debating it etc. because you are not adding anything new, it becomes clear that the reason you are not adding anything new to what is an OLD debate is because you do not even know what an audit is .. and I'M the one that's trolling YOU? Do you see NO correleation at all between "I don't know what I am talking about but I'll debate it anyway" and the response you get for it?
Guh, slow day at the office, I'll try once more.
What is your question here? What is your point? You keep posting but I have nothing I could say in response, because you are not asking me any questions. You used to keep asking me to repost things, but now not even that.
What do you want? Thanks.
This continues to be the worst conversation I've had in literally tens of minutes.
All I see there is you, realising you actually were being an idiot, now saying "what are you trying to say?" to me because I've called you out on it, and rather than be a grown up and say "I realise I was wrong, I'll go look into this and then come back with some good suggestions once I've actually learned about the subject" you have totally ignored it and instead started writing nonsense. I am not asking you a question anymore because you don't know what you are talking about and never did despite all the words you wrote arguing with me about a subject that I DO know about. In other words "HERPDERPDERPlolauditscauseiwanttolookcoolliketheotherlolauditcrowdLOLDERP"
.. And florestan lol funny, inaccurate but funny anyway.
sooo .. what was this thread about again? I heard some guy lost a couple billion isk or something, but then I got sidetracked.
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Miss Rabblt
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Posted - 2011.03.05 11:52:00 -
[249]
Originally by: Kalrand Just as an FYI: KalBonds has ZERO exposure to Cosmoray.
really? And what about standard Goon scam about "pay 500mils and join us"?
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RAW23
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Posted - 2011.03.05 12:03:00 -
[250]
Edited by: RAW23 on 05/03/2011 12:03:24 Cheney - I think part of the problem here is that you are basing your understanding of what those in favour of audits claim that audits can do on the reports provided by those who are against audits when they criticise those in favour. Over the last two months there have been literally dozens of posts claiming that the pro-audit camp thinks audits can do x, y and z, and whilst these claims are normally tackled quite quickly the constant repetition can easily lead someone to think that such claims might, in fact, have been made. This can be amplified by an occassional lack of clarity on the part of the pro-audit camp (understandable enough when the discussions cover hundreds of posts per month) that may sometimes seem to feed in to said analysis.
The fact that some of us come across as cheerleaders for audits might sometimes obscure the reasons why we are cheerleaders, and we are all quite explicitly committed to these reasons. To my knowledge no one thinks that audits are any kind of silver bullet that can stop scams. They are, rather, an imperfect tool for checking some, but not all, facts about an individual or a business and by checking those facts a tool for providing investors with some extra information on which to base their risk assessments. If Rykker Bow wants to issue a new bond for 15bil, I can turn to his performance audit and see that he has third party confirmed figures showing that he was able to make a 35bil profit off a 10bil investment in one month on his last bond and this then allows me to come to a more secure conclusion about how risky I think the new bond will be than if I had only his word to go on. Obviously, part of my new assessment will be including a small risk factor of the audit or auditor being unreliable but I will generally conclude that information supported by two sources is more reliable than information deriving from a single source.
Similarly, I generally want to know the NAV of someone I'm considering investing in and an auditor can provide a second source for this information too (there are clearly a number of ways in which this can be gamed but there is still reason to believe that, in general, I am more likely to get an accurate picture from two sources than from one). I also want to know that at least none of the accounts being audited has Bad Bobby on it, and an audit can confirm this as well. There are lots of other things an audit can't confirm, such as whether there is a non-audited account that DOES have Bobby on it. I am aware of these limitations and invest accordingly. But I don't want to throw away the other things just because an audit can't do everything.
If you have a look at VV's actual audits you will see that they conform quite tightly to the pattern I have noted above and are full of disclaimers about what cannot be found. She is also very good at digging out details - see my own recent audit for some facts that meant that rather than the clean bill of health I was looking for what VV actually found were a number of apparently suspicious transactions that could be explained away but not verifiably. All this is noted quite scrupulously. That VV doesn't always provide the best arguments when doing the normal forum to-ing and fro-ing shouldn't really cast a shadow over her auditing ability. Some of the most intelligent people I know are really really bad at the debating society format of providing rapid and coherent answers to questions. Their minds move like icebergs, which can be embarrassing in certain contexts but, despite that, they slowly and inexorably grind their way to analyses that may be far more solid than those arrived at by the lightning-fast guys. And I think you can see something of this in the careful and methodical approach VV takes to audits. I highly recommend that you look some up as you may be pleasantly surprised.
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Florestan Bronstein
Amarr Taishi Combine
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Posted - 2011.03.05 14:07:00 -
[251]
Originally by: RAW23 Over the last two months there have been literally dozens of posts claiming that the pro-audit camp thinks audits can do x, y and z, and whilst these claims are normally tackled quite quickly the constant repetition can easily lead someone to think that such claims might, in fact, have been made.
The most common argument is that (somewhat sheepish) investors think an audit does x, y and z - not that the auditor or the pro-audit camp thinks it does x, y and z.
Experience in MD shows that many investors are looking for very simple heuristics on whether to invest or not - EBANK/Ricdics investing was one of these, a positive audit report is another one, RAW23 investing has been cited in Signatures recently , ...
People just don't like to make hard decisions when there are many risks involved and when the available information is complex and fuzzy.
Audits are an especially convenient way to let someone else decide for you (and VV's frequent "investors have never lost money in an investment that was audited by me" claims do encourage them to behave like lemmings).
In their current form audits act as fact checks for a small elite of investors and as the "MD seal of approval" for everyone else.
Without nice audit reports investors would have to fall back on other heuristics that would hopefully be more easily debunked - in the ideal case a certain class of people would just shake their head at the complexity of investment decisions in MD and leave. Getting rid off audits would hopefully contribute to getting rid off the impression that MD investments can ever be more than an extremely risky gamble.
Ironically VV is in my opinion the biggest threat to audits in MD - although she does instantly respond to any criticism with "look at my disclaimer here" she frequently overshoots the target by citing her flawless track record, making comparisons to (secure) RL, trying to prevent alternative checks with less potential for misinterpretation, ... and ends up contributing to the "audited investments are safe" attitude she tries(?) to prevent.
Audits are fact checks of extremely limited value, they serve as a barrier of entry for certain low-level scams and help to enable other, more sophisticated scams.
Of course some people will now respond "it is not the fault of the auditor if investors are stupid" but in my opinion the behavior of the masses is a constant that has to be planned with.
Analogy: Assume I could legalize the sale of undenatured alcohol with a high degree of methanol (denaturing the alcohol might be costly or reduce some properties useful in industrial applications). Of course alcoholics all over the place would blind or kill themselves by consumption of that alcohol. I could then answer "not my fault they didn't take the warning signs on the bottle seriously enough. Darwin strikes again!". But imo I would still have acted irresponsibly as the effect of my decision to enable the sale of this drinkable, "bad" alcohol was fully anticipated by me and I recognized the necessity to protect certain people from themselves but didn't act on that realization.
Currently audits still seem to do more good than bad but it is only a matter of time until this changes and cosmoray's audit-enabled scams are just the first steps of scammers using audits to gain credibility. The more people "believe" in audits the more attractive to put in the little extra effort to pass an audit. At some point MD will get rid off audits as they will only be regarded as tools that enable scammers.
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Misty McGinnity
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Posted - 2011.03.05 14:18:00 -
[252]
Originally by: Florestan Bronstein
Ironically VV is in my opinion the biggest threat to audits in MD - although she does instantly respond to any criticism with "look at my disclaimer here" she frequently overshoots the target by citing her flawless track record, making comparisons to (secure) RL, trying to prevent alternative checks with less potential for misinterpretation, ... and ends up contributing to the "audited investments are safe" attitude she tries(?) to prevent.
your face when (yfw) you find out he is a 40 year old unemployed software engineer:
lol @ this thread, its all about the stupid audits again
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Florestan Bronstein
Amarr Taishi Combine
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Posted - 2011.03.05 14:25:00 -
[253]
Originally by: Misty McGinnity your face when (yfw) you find out he is a 40 year old unemployed software engineer:
I am well aware that the player behind VV is male IRL but I generally refer to characters, not the people playing them.
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Alain Kinsella
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.03.05 15:20:00 -
[254]
Originally by: Florestan Bronstein At some point MD will get rid off audits as they will only be regarded as tools that enable scammers.
Well, if Incarna does take off (and the expected crowd from SL, There, Blue Mars etc do come and stay) I expect audits to disappear for different reasons - Many of these migrants (like myself) are perfectly happy to raise funds the same way its done in those environments - pay US$.
I've seen good operations inSL that work in teams of 2-4 and push through hundreds of RL$$ monthly, it should not take long for these folks to do the same here and earn back their original investment (in PLEX time of course). The larger ops won't come here of course, since they want the ability to 'cash out.'
As has been said before (including by me), private operations don't need to reach to MD, they're more likely to point at investment threads and laugh all the way to the bank. Though some may privately find new partners that way (I see indications of that happening already).
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.03.05 16:16:00 -
[255]
Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 05/03/2011 16:18:10
Originally by: MMe Pinkerton
and VV's frequent "investors have never lost money in an investment that was audited by me"
Just a little precisation: I said it once and the "audited by me" was not to show off how good I am but to limit the scope of the authority of the statistic to just me - I don't want to talk about and intrude about other auditors.
Quote:
lol @ this thread, its all about the stupid audits again
Yeah, they have really to irk someone. I am not even that much active at them any more. Yawn.
Quote:
you find out he is a 40 year old unemployed software engineer:
I have nothing to hide, you prove it and people appreciate that. Thanks. Also, I plan to stay "unemployed" forever.
Quote:
Well, if Incarna does take off (and the expected crowd from SL, There, Blue Mars etc do come and stay) I expect audits to disappear for different reasons - Many of these migrants (like myself) are perfectly happy to raise funds the same way its done in those environments - pay US$.
I know this could sound pesky, but not everyone in EvE plays to make RL $$. Some play for fun, and MD investments, their challenges, the whole micro-universe around MD with its many facets are part of their fun.
- Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Roguehalo
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2011.03.05 16:30:00 -
[256]
I'm not actually sure that very much money was stolen.
We only have Cosmorays word for it that he was loaning out 100b+ etc etc.
He's just your average 'legend in his own mind' tbh.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.03.05 16:58:00 -
[257]
Originally by: Roguehalo I'm not actually sure that very much money was stolen.
We only have Cosmorays word for it that he was loaning out 100b+ etc etc.
He's just your average 'legend in his own mind' tbh.
Putting the parts of facts I know together, it seems like a "mini Bad Bobby". I.e. his alt really had stuff being researched in his own POS / made but at a certain point some trigger flipped. - Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
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Posted - 2011.03.05 18:49:00 -
[258]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha precisation
If you are going to use the language of Shakespeare, Hume and Bill Bryson, please do not butcher it with home-made monstrosities like this.
Thank you.
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Jin Natha
Yulai Capital Management
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Posted - 2011.03.05 20:01:00 -
[259]
Originally by: Bumblefck
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha precisation
If you are going to use the language of Shakespeare, Hume and Bill Bryson, please do not butcher it with home-made monstrosities like this. Thank you.
I read in a Bill Bryson book that Shakespeare invented more than a thousand English words.
IMHO "precisation" seems like a reasonably cromulent togetherant of "precise" and "clarification", especially given that it came from a non-native English speaker.
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Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
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Posted - 2011.03.05 20:12:00 -
[260]
Originally by: Jin Natha
Originally by: Bumblefck
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha precisation
If you are going to use the language of Shakespeare, Hume and Bill Bryson, please do not butcher it with home-made monstrosities like this. Thank you.
I read in a Bill Bryson book that Shakespeare invented more than a thousand English words.
IMHO "precisation" seems like a reasonably cromulent togetherant of "precise" and "clarification", especially given that it came from a non-native English speaker.
Yes, definitely. It's quite cogent with the rules of noun-formation - and, in fact, seems to be an over-application of the rule Anyway, it's a common mistake for non-native speakers (of any language) to make when dealing with another language. Having said that though, it doesn't mean that I like it
PS Nice use of 'cromulent' :)
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Kalrand
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.03.05 20:14:00 -
[261]
Originally by: Bumblefck
Originally by: Jin Natha
Originally by: Bumblefck
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha precisation
If you are going to use the language of Shakespeare, Hume and Bill Bryson, please do not butcher it with home-made monstrosities like this. Thank you.
I read in a Bill Bryson book that Shakespeare invented more than a thousand English words.
IMHO "precisation" seems like a reasonably cromulent togetherant of "precise" and "clarification", especially given that it came from a non-native English speaker.
Yes, definitely. It's quite cogent with the rules of noun-formation - and, in fact, seems to be an over-application of the rule Anyway, it's a common mistake for non-native speakers (of any language) to make when dealing with another language. Having said that though, it doesn't mean that I like it
PS Nice use of 'cromulent' :)
Can we all go back to talking like grizzled sailors again?
Vote KALRAND for CSM! |
Thoraemond
Minmatar Far Ranger
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Posted - 2011.03.05 20:37:00 -
[262]
Well, at least I got one [CRHC] dividend With this new information about the long term value of the shares, I am beginning to suspect that I might have overpaid, though, despite my intention to do otherwise.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.03.05 21:14:00 -
[263]
Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 05/03/2011 21:14:38
Originally by: Bumblefck
Originally by: Jin Natha
Originally by: Bumblefck
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha precisation
If you are going to use the language of Shakespeare, Hume and Bill Bryson, please do not butcher it with home-made monstrosities like this. Thank you.
I read in a Bill Bryson book that Shakespeare invented more than a thousand English words.
IMHO "precisation" seems like a reasonably cromulent togetherant of "precise" and "clarification", especially given that it came from a non-native English speaker.
Yes, definitely. It's quite cogent with the rules of noun-formation - and, in fact, seems to be an over-application of the rule Anyway, it's a common mistake for non-native speakers (of any language) to make when dealing with another language. Having said that though, it doesn't mean that I like it
PS Nice use of 'cromulent' :)
Excuse me, while I have no pretense about Shakespeare, I'd like to understand what did I do wrong.
Precisation is the translation for "precisazione" which in my tongue means "clarification" and it's even recognized i.e. by Google translate:
Google translate - Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
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Posted - 2011.03.05 21:27:00 -
[264]
Precision, in English. Originally Latin, and of course therefore two (or more) derivatives.
Not in the Exchange, don't invest! |
Thoraemond
Minmatar Far Ranger
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Posted - 2011.03.05 21:32:00 -
[265]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Precisation is the translation for "precisazione" which in my tongue means "clarification" and it's even recognized i.e. by Google translate: Google translate
Actually, that shows that Google Translate suggests "precisazione" as the Italian translation for the putatively English "precisation". If you go the other way, Google suggests that "clarification" is as the English translation for "precisazione".
Also, Google Translate probably "translates" all sort of things that are not commonly considered words in order to improve the user experience (i.e., it might be better to "guess" at a meaning, rather than to return an error message). So just because Google Translate takes in a string of letters and returns something that is roughly related should probably not be read as an endorsement of the status of that string as a word.
Feeding in "precisation" for auto-translation to English or Italian leads Google Translate to query whether the input is a misspelling of a French word.
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Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
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Posted - 2011.03.05 21:40:00 -
[266]
Originally by: Thoraemond So just because Google Translate takes in a string of letters and returns something that is roughly related should probably not be read as an endorsement of the status of that string as a word.
Yes, google (stop capitalising it, like god) is wrong. It also shows you it's quote brilliant translation, not word for word (which has caused wars) but rather structurally based (which has caused just as many wars, but is better). That's not to say 'precisation' can't be a word, english is very accommodating when it comes to anomalies. It's a complete bastard itself, after all. Just like you.
Not in the Exchange, don't invest! |
Kei Darker
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Posted - 2011.03.05 22:57:00 -
[267]
Originally by: Ray McCormack
Yes, google (stop capitalising it, like god) is wrong.
Actually, Google is God, but more importantly a proper noun.
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Thoraemond
Minmatar Far Ranger
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Posted - 2011.03.06 03:08:00 -
[268]
Originally by: Ray McCormack That's not to say 'precisation' can't be a word, English is very accommodating when it comes to anomalies.
As you can see above, I did not comment on the status of the string of letters, but rather on the use of Google Translate as an authority. I hope that this precisation is some help.
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Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
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Posted - 2011.03.06 07:18:00 -
[269]
Originally by: Thoraemond I hope that this precisation is some help.
Yes, you have presicated sufficiently. Thank you.
Not in the Exchange, don't invest! |
YouGotRipped
Ewigkeit
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Posted - 2011.03.06 12:11:00 -
[270]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha I have many limits and defects, possibly more than most others, but I am expecially proud of two of them:
- my inability to understand why someone would scam, expecially in a game. Not the shallow "why" tied to gaining some Monopoly money, but the inner, deep "why" about they feel doing the very act. What suddenly rots and make them become like that.
Fundamentally nothing changes, or to put it more simple, that which changes does not define the individual.
Black Sun Empire |
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