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Mynxee
Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2011.03.07 16:43:00 -
[1]
At the December Summit in Iceland, CCP presented the Incarna expansion to the current CSM. At this meeting the CSM urged CCP in the strongest possible terms to step up with the messaging efforts for the expansion as we felt that expectation management would be critical to its success at launch. We are pleased to see that CCP has begun to release initial information about Incarna.
However, given how crucial Incarna is to the future of EVE and CCP, the CSM feels compelled to make public some significant concerns we have raised that have not yet been addressed by CCP. We wish to stress, in the strongest possible way, that we do not do this in order to be inflammatory. Rather, the success or failure of Incarna is such an important issue that, in good conscience, we cannot remain silent.
Our first and most crucial concern is that there is little evidence so far of a roadmap for this feature. We are extremely concerned that development of Incarna, the most significant addition to EVE since Beta, is being done in an ad-hoc, on-the-fly manner.
Second, we wish to re-iterate our unanimous objection to the forced integration of Incarna into the general Eve experience, and that we strongly urge CCP to ensure that any new systems will not adversely affect the performance of the EVE client.
Third, regarding metrics, we feel that forced integration will not provide a true picture of the usefulness of the features, while at the same time, these metrics will be used to justify Incarna. As in any area of business, using flawed metrics to justify resource allocations can only lead to poor decisions.
Fourth, while we agree that CCP's decision to stage the release of Incarna in small chunks is a wise one, we feel that it is very important for CCP to expand their messaging and provide a clear and detailed vision of the future iteration and potential of Incarna, so that players who are highly invested in the current core gameplay of EVE will be able to better judge the value they will be receiving for the large amount of time and effort being invested in Incarna by CCP.
The CSM would like to reiterate that we are not opposed to the development of Incarna; rather we are primarily concerned about the apparent lack of significant planning for a feature CCP properly regards as crucial to the future of the company, and the game we love so much.
We want to see Incarna fully fleshed-out. How that is done and how the evolution of Incarna is messaged will be key challenges for CCP over the next several expansions. We hope that CCP will view these expressions of concern as useful feedback that will be helpful in properly justifying and measuring the resources being devoted to Incarna.
Most Sincerely, Members of the Fifth Council of Stellar Management (Except for Mazzillu who objected to public posting of this letter and requested that her name be excluded)
Chair, CSM5
CSM6 Page on Facebook--keep up with all candidates in one place! |
OhThis GuyAgain
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Posted - 2011.03.07 16:52:00 -
[2]
Planning is important |
noise
Minmatar m3 Corp
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Posted - 2011.03.07 16:59:00 -
[3]
I think that CSM5 has done a marvelous job during their term and their huge efforts are greatly appreciated. However, I do believe that CCP have made a great game here with EVE Online and I think that they should be given the benefit of the doubt regarding this new content they want to introduce. Regardless of how they plan/implement it, I believe it will be good.
Is it possible that they have plans/ideas that they are not sharing with the CSM?
All my love to Mynxee and the rest of the CSM noise ---------------------------- -It's a big rock. Can't wait to tell my friends. They don't have a rock this big.
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Mynxee
Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2011.03.07 17:03:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Mynxee on 07/03/2011 17:03:39
Originally by: OhThis GuyAgain Planning is important...
My what an opportune time to publicly post a letter to CCP that the Eve community at large will like.
COUGH CSM election in two days COUGH
(Obviously this doesn't apply to those not running for re-election so hush Mynxee etc.)
For your information, this letter has been in the works for several weeks. We started by communicating our intent to CCP, giving them the courtesy of advance preview, and reasonable time frames to respond. There has been no direct response, except comments from advocates about the upcoming messaging, the first of which was CCP Chiliad's dev blog.
We felt our concerns were not adequately addressed by CCP, and they did not engage in any dialog with us about those concerns. If more people reading Jita Park during elections means more eyes on CSM's expressed concerns, then so be it. I would call it a lucky coincidence but if I'd had my way about it, the letter would have been published weeks ago.
Chair, CSM5
CSM6 Page on Facebook--keep up with all candidates in one place! |
Mynxee
Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2011.03.07 17:06:00 -
[5]
Originally by: noise Is it possible that they have plans/ideas that they are not sharing with the CSM?
Thanks for your support, but if that is true, then in my view the CSM has even more of an obligation to express concerns because it means we have been isolated and excluded from the process of representing player interests at a critical time in a feature's life cycle.
Chair, CSM5
CSM6 Page on Facebook--keep up with all candidates in one place! |
Krispy Dingo
Minmatar Strangers in a Strange Land
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Posted - 2011.03.07 17:09:00 -
[6]
I agree with noise, CSM5 has done an amazing job with starting to hold CCP accountable, and I hope that CSM6 will continue along the same path.
This is something that really does worry me about Incarna. I know that CCP has stated continually that EVE is supposed to be a total Sci Fi experience, but after years of talking about Ambulation/Walking in Stations/Incarna, it is finally going to be upon us, and we see Captain's Quarters.
I am a programmer myself, I understand that this is a monumental task, especially integrating something of the magnitude of Incarna with the previously existing game, but not seeing a plan or a direction that Incarna is supposed to be heading down concerns me considerably.
Hopefully, at Fanfest, some new information that they have been keeping back will be revealed. I guess we will all have to wait and see. _____________________________ http://twitter.com/krispy_dingo http://krispydingo.com |
noise
Minmatar m3 Corp
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Posted - 2011.03.07 17:09:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Mynxee
Thanks for your support, but if that is true, then in my view the CSM has even more of an obligation to express concerns because it means we have been isolated and excluded from the process of representing player interests at a critical time in a feature's life cycle.
This, I completely agree with. It would defeat the purpose and the effort put in from the CSM should it be true. ---------------------------- -It's a big rock. Can't wait to tell my friends. They don't have a rock this big.
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iP0D
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Posted - 2011.03.07 17:11:00 -
[8]
Forced integration? While I concede that CCP have developed a strong tendency to validate decision on the mere basis of "because it is awesome" (for who, is one of the questions left open in both sales and retention focus in that regard), but this letter from the CSM 5 kinda sounds like CCP would still be subscribing to the delusion of "Incarna cannot be compelling unless it is enforced" (which from a customer perspective comes down to an admission of desillusion and lack of vision - and thus inspiration towards the customer)? Surely that cannot be the case?
Anyway, I get the idea from the chatter on twitter that this letter did not exactly come out of the blue and was a topic for a while - but I presume internally, between CSM and CCP?
I agree with the concern though, after reading the latest interview in PC Gamer I was afraid from Hammer's statements being an exact 180 degree opposite of the new approach of Zulu, signalling CCP still having tendencies towards "awesome" and "shiny" (dump content regardless of finished or tuned and never look back and hey guys there is a new buzzword that will deliver us a personal award). I'm looking forward to Incarna, if only for the expansion of the universe with a complete new environment added to it. On the basis of the original principles of sandbox, risk vs reward, player drivent events & trends, it could have been really awesome. But not as an apparent delivery as part of a bigger strategic perspective (that of World of Darkness, where I agree that it makes commercial sense, but not a lot for sales or retention in the format of the last 4 years). I wish that letter, the thoughts behind it, the argumentation that must have taken place and the obvious care, had been present 2 or 3 years ago. Now I fear it is too late.
As for why I fear it is too late? Don't get me wrong, I do think particularly Zulu with his complete change of approach (and rightly so) is trying to pick up the pieces and doing the right thing (has CSM seen or heard of a roadmap or vision document yet?). But well, considering it is clear from the various minutes and media reports that on the topic of Incarna CSM 5 was isolated from both its job in that regard and the actual topic, including an NDA stamp applied, but that CCP did go to the media with - from reports and comments on these forums and others - with exactly what they had shown the CSM, I am sorry, but that merely bleeds a part of CCP living in a trench.
CCP is still right, the data does indeed not support that polished content sells better, but reading this I fear for CCP's capability to fully understand the value of retention, the cost of recycling customer prospects, and the necessity to take care of matters. It's business.
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PC l0adletter
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Posted - 2011.03.07 17:12:00 -
[9]
Opposed to the development of Incarna, right here. Well, at least when it's done at the dramatic expense of in-space features. Make timely balance changes, fix the UI, buff the lag team, iterate on sov, etc.
Whatever, money talks. Unsubscribing is the only thing that works.
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Faromero
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Posted - 2011.03.07 17:14:00 -
[10]
I agree with Noise for the most part.
I believe that CCP has created a great game. In fact, itÆs a game that all 300,000+ subscribers enjoy and they (CCP) created it without directly announcing every single change that was to be made to the game.
The 5th CSM has without a doubt been one of the most successful CSMs ever but this constant push back against Incarna is really beginning to leave a taste of BOVS in a great number of players mouths. A Simple look at the number of bloggers that came out and voiced the need for patience will tell you that they are less concerned about it than CSM V. Plus, for every blogger there are hundreds if not thousands of players that feel the same way.
While I really do appreciate the effort that CSM V has put forth, I truly believe that by continuing to push back you are leaving yourselves a negative legacy that will not be forgotten for a long time.
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Garheade
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Posted - 2011.03.07 17:20:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Faromero I agree with Noise for the most part.
I believe that CCP has created a great game. In fact, itÆs a game that all 300,000+ subscribers enjoy and they (CCP) created it without directly announcing every single change that was to be made to the game.
The 5th CSM has without a doubt been one of the most successful CSMs ever but this constant push back against Incarna is really beginning to leave a taste of BOVS in a great number of players mouths. A Simple look at the number of bloggers that came out and voiced the need for patience will tell you that they are less concerned about it than CSM V. Plus, for every blogger there are hundreds if not thousands of players that feel the same way.
While I really do appreciate the effort that CSM V has put forth, I truly believe that by continuing to push back you are leaving yourselves a negative legacy that will not be forgotten for a long time.
My apologies, this message was supposed to be posted from this toon.
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iP0D
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Posted - 2011.03.07 17:27:00 -
[12]
Edited by: iP0D on 07/03/2011 17:32:18
Originally by: Faromero
The 5th CSM has without a doubt been one of the most successful CSMs ever but this constant push back against Incarna is really beginning to leave a taste of BOVS in a great number of players mouths. A Simple look at the number of bloggers that came out and voiced the need for patience will tell you that they are less concerned about it than CSM V. Plus, for every blogger there are hundreds if not thousands of players that feel the same way.
Don't be silly If anything to be clear from the CSM 5 efforts in regards to Incarna, it is that they have a genuine care to do their job as tasked by CCP in providing feedback, thoughts and concerns as well as argumentation to enable CCP to not fall prey to the usual traps of "shiny" and "awesome".
I've been following numerous blogs that signal a welcoming of a new side of EVE, personally I look forward to it. But CCP has been around for a fair few years now. Consistantly CCP have merely focused on sales, and not on retention, and while we can see from Zulu that there might be a change to their patterns ... it would be a first for CCP to not simply throw something out there, and never look back. Which would be an utter shame. Patience, is something which niche after niche has never yielded any iterative results whatsoever coming from CCP - until CSM 5 started to apply simple accountability in communications and interaction, doing exactly what an external stakeholder is expected to do (even better, doing exactly what CCP's CEO tasked them to do).
So I understand where the concern from CSM 5 comes from. The PI iteration, Team BFF, team gridlock, all consequences of CSM 5 efforts which until that point never came from CCP. Ever. Even a few simple examples of caution with "CCP and patience" like Cosmos, POS, botting, Faction Warfare are considerable signals of caution in favour of staying sharp, rather than sitting back and well, giving it another 4 years - I am oversimplifying it, obviously, but I am sure the point is clear.
It's been the caution, communication, the accountability applied, that is giving way to meaningful change in CCP's deliverables. Patience, has never yielded results. The need for balance is clear. Personally I think CSM 5 struck a solid balance there, something that should be obvious to us, and to CCP.
What were to happen when the blogosphere welcoming Incarna were to be forced to face the disappointment of CCP's (hopefully) former style of deliveries & nurturing EVE, year after year, with Incarna. I am sorry, but it really is time to take care of matters, professionally. Nothing "lolcorporate", just properly. To do and get done the right things right.
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Mynxee
Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2011.03.07 17:30:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Faromero I agree with Noise for the most part.
I believe that CCP has created a great game. In fact, itÆs a game that all 300,000+ subscribers enjoy and they (CCP) created it without directly announcing every single change that was to be made to the game.
The 5th CSM has without a doubt been one of the most successful CSMs ever but this constant push back against Incarna is really beginning to leave a taste of BOVS in a great number of players mouths. A Simple look at the number of bloggers that came out and voiced the need for patience will tell you that they are less concerned about it than CSM V. Plus, for every blogger there are hundreds if not thousands of players that feel the same way.
While I really do appreciate the effort that CSM V has put forth, I truly believe that by continuing to push back you are leaving yourselves a negative legacy that will not be forgotten for a long time.
It is not always easy, comfortable, or fun to hold people accountable for the bare minimum of expected communications with a stakeholder group. In the absence of such (and after having given CCP many chances), and considering that we will hand the reins over to CSM6 in a few short weeks, a public record of CSM5's concerns in one easily referenced place is all that we hope to accomplish here.
Chair, CSM5
CSM6 Page on Facebook--keep up with all candidates in one place! |
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Northern Coalition.
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Posted - 2011.03.07 17:35:00 -
[14]
Posting in approval.
Vote Sokratesz for CSM-6! |
Garheade
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Posted - 2011.03.07 17:38:00 -
[15]
Mynxee, I can understand that you simply want your concerns noted. 'nuff said.
iPod: If CCP has truly ignored the game (or the areas of the game that you view as broken) why are you still playing?
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Ewan Husami
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Posted - 2011.03.07 17:38:00 -
[16]
Just because CCP say they value the input of the CSM, that doesn't elevate you the status you seem to think you have attained.
Its a method of free idea generation. No one really cares if a new feature spoils your idea of a perfect spaceship game. I fear you've forgotten that EVE is a business. And I'm not talking about selling blueprints.
You've served your purpose, and it isn't to tell CCP how to run their enterprise. Now mop up those tears, and get on with your day. The internet already has enough people whining. |
iP0D
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Posted - 2011.03.07 17:47:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Ewan Husami Just because CCP say they value the input of the CSM, that doesn't elevate you the status you seem to think you have attained.
...
You've served your purpose, and it isn't to tell CCP how to run their enterprise. Now mop up those tears, and get on with your day. The internet already has enough people whining.
Nobody tells CCP how to run their business. On the contrary. Nor is any CSM taking on any delusional perception of status: they are just a stakeholder, nothing more, nothing less. They are indeed, a business instrument .. you are right, this is business. And in that context, remarkable isn't it, how both CCP and CSM and Customers care about EVE as more than a game, but as a livelihood that enables livelihoods
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Two step
Aperture Harmonics K162
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Posted - 2011.03.07 17:54:00 -
[18]
Just wanted to post in support of all these goals. From an outsider's perspective, we have heard basically nothing about what CCP wants Incarna to be, other than "awesome". I'd love to hear about some actual planned *game* play, even if it is a year or so out. Two step for CSM6 - http://twostep4csm.blogspot.com/ |
Seleene
Body Count Inc. Cascade Imminent
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Posted - 2011.03.07 17:54:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Mynxee We want to see Incarna fully fleshed-out. How that is done and how the evolution of Incarna is messaged will be key challenges for CCP over the next several expansions. We hope that CCP will view these expressions of concern as useful feedback that will be helpful in properly justifying and measuring the resources being devoted to Incarna.
/signed.
I wrote about this not so long ago: Incarna - Will history repeat itself? ----
Seleene 4 CSM6 - EVE ONLINE - ITERATIONS |
iP0D
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Posted - 2011.03.07 18:05:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Garheade Mynxee, I can understand that you simply want your concerns noted. 'nuff said.
iPod: If CCP has truly ignored the game (or the areas of the game that you view as broken) why are you still playing?
Because I love it. EVE is more than just a game. Hilmar once said that EVE is an emerging dynamic, and the good man is right. CCP created life We only quit life when we either get another one, or are left or found alone in misery - bitter or perceived as bitter has nothing to do with that, nor any relevance. Please don't mistake constructive criticism for bitter
I'm not saying X or Y is broken. EVE is business, CCP has to expand in order to grow, but in more ways than one. The 350K+ subscribers we see today come from an original strong concept and a lot of tender love, but less and less care - compensated by acquisition focused mrketing and a hell of a lot of word of mouth potential generated by the principle of player driven events & trends.
But yes, the past few yers we've seen CCP chase from one buzzword to the next, but less and less capitalising on the potential of delivering on the buzzword and nurturing it beyond the mere point of sales focus. EVE is a service model, selling is one thing, keeping is the other half.
EVE is amazing, and can truly be a generational game, I can't see myself quitting it. I worry because I've seen less and less visible care from CCP translated into care for deliverables (which is not the same as "care" in its own right), something which encroaches on retention, unfortunately. And that is something which the past 4 years near continuously increased the difference between what CCP presentes, what they deliver, more so even that the difference between that and how they take care of it.
Someone else actually made a fun picture bout that once, as analogy fro something known in enterprise development known as the Tower Of Pisa syndrome. While one can establish parallel products within the same IP or even others, continuously vertically expanding (regardless of intent or often even actuality, as perception defines the reality of those within the model)a service model product for content and features without widening the base, or taking care of the deliverables over time, results in a pretty damn high skysc****r. But one which has a very fragile base, empty floors, and a huge ruide for its inhabitants to alwys follow upwards.
I'm not saying they are ignoring the game. They don't, it is a business. But they have been chasing too much shiny with the same unchanged message and validations for too long, and that does present a risk of compromising the continuity of the dynamic. That too, is business.
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Thorvik
Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2011.03.07 18:06:00 -
[21]
Signed.
Well written, to the point and expresses what many offs are thinking and would like to see.
I vote Mynxee for Community Manager.
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Meissa Anunthiel
Redshift Industrial Rooks and Kings
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Posted - 2011.03.07 18:15:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Meissa Anunthiel on 07/03/2011 18:16:24
Originally by: Krispy Dingo CSM5 has done an amazing job with starting to hold CCP accountable, and I hope that CSM6 will continue along the same path.
Thank you, it's been a rough ride this time around, and it's important to keep it going in a constructive manner, I hope CSM 6 will be able to do that. Not so subtle hint: I'm running again. ----- Member of CSM 2, 3, 4, 5. Running for CSM 6 http://www.rooksandkings.com/meissa/ |
Mynxee
Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2011.03.07 18:19:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Garheade Mynxee, I can understand that you simply want your concerns noted. 'nuff said.
iPod: If CCP has truly ignored the game (or the areas of the game that you view as broken) why are you still playing?
Hope? Faith? Caring? Those have eroded during my time as a CSM delegate, sure, but they're not quite extinguished. Though much needs attention, I still believe there are a lot of bright spots in the game and a lot of good people at CCP working hard on making more things better. If I didn't believe that, I would have resigned from the CSM and quit playing immediately after the June Summit.
Chair, CSM5
CSM6 Page on Facebook--keep up with all candidates in one place! |
Helen Highwater
GoonWaffe
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Posted - 2011.03.07 18:39:00 -
[24]
As one of the primary authors of this message (with editorial input from other CSM members) I endorse this product and/or service. ----------------------------------------------------------
Helen Highwater for CSM 6. Death to bad ideas! |
Mynxee
Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2011.03.07 18:47:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Mynxee on 07/03/2011 18:47:55
Originally by: Helen Highwater As one of the primary authors of this message (with editorial input from other CSM members) I endorse this product and/or service.
By coincidence, I updated my post just above yours to reflect that in response to Thorvik's comment.
Chair, CSM5
CSM6 Page on Facebook--keep up with all candidates in one place! |
Helicity Boson
Amarr The Python Cartel. The Defenders of Pen Island
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Posted - 2011.03.07 19:31:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Helicity Boson on 07/03/2011 19:31:55 Incarna is, to all extents and purposes, vaporware. it doesn't exist.
In fact, not even a clear idea of what it is supposed to be exists within CCP. This is very worrying, since years and years of work and money have gone into the project... but no actual gameplay exists.
On top of that I will NEVER FORGIVE CCP if them forcing me to use incarna to switch ships and the like causes me to waste even MORE time when changing vessel (and despite their bold claims, it will).
I'd much rather have CCP be open about being empty-handed for now, and actually asking us what WE would like in incarna.
I'm sorry CCP, I love you guys but "it's gonna be awesome!!1!" just doesn't cut it anymore.
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4C 4F 5645
Rogue Drone Systems
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Posted - 2011.03.07 20:17:00 -
[27]
While i am worried about the state of development for Incarna i disagree with the CSM on the integration issue: if Incarna is to have any success or relevancy whatsoever it should be fully integrated within EvE and CCP need to have the guts to stick to their guns and not give in to the "never change anything" crowd.
I do agree you shouldn't have to run down kilometers of tunnels to dock, undock or switch a ship or fitting. But that dosen't mean that all station services present and future should be available outside Incarna or that there shouldn't be an Incarna-only economy and Incarna-only gameplay that is relevant and affects the larger picture - including the spaceship game.
It should be optional in the same sense Wormhole Space is optional. You can opt out, but you also miss out.
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Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
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Posted - 2011.03.07 20:42:00 -
[28]
Agree with the CSM5 group.
Helicity had a quite nice post as well. -
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Helen Highwater
GoonWaffe
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Posted - 2011.03.07 20:50:00 -
[29]
Originally by: 4C 4F 5645 While i am worried about the state of development for Incarna i disagree with the CSM on the integration issue: if Incarna is to have any success or relevancy whatsoever it should be fully integrated within EvE and CCP need to have the guts to stick to their guns and not give in to the "never change anything" crowd.
I do agree you shouldn't have to run down kilometers of tunnels to dock, undock or switch a ship or fitting. But that dosen't mean that all station services present and future should be available outside Incarna or that there shouldn't be an Incarna-only economy and Incarna-only gameplay that is relevant and affects the larger picture - including the spaceship game.
It should be optional in the same sense Wormhole Space is optional. You can opt out, but you also miss out.
This is broadly my position as well for what it's worth. I am opposed however to simply shoehorning existing things into Incarna as a bandaid for actual content. My concern is that there will be little to no value added to Eve by Incarna in and of itself and simply giving us what we already have in a new interface is not a compelling reason to tie up so many resources on a huge new feature. ----------------------------------------------------------
Helen Highwater for CSM 6. Death to bad ideas! |
Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.03.07 21:06:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Mynxee ....However, given how crucial Incarna is to the future ....
Our first and most crucial concern is that there is little evidence so far of a roadmap for this feature. We are extremely concerned that development of Incarna, the most significant addition to EVE since Beta, .... We want to see Incarna fully fleshed-out. How that is done and how the evolution of Incarna is messaged will be key challenges for CCP over the next several expansions. We hope that CCP will view these expressions of concern as useful feedback that will be helpful in properly justifying and measuring the resources being devoted to Incarna.....
I respectfully, disagree with what is said here. For me I really couldnÆt care less about incarna. I highly doubt it will be that important for the way I play eve. Moreover, I wish they would just spit it out and go back to spaceships.
I do not want them to spend any more time trying to ôflesh outö some as yet unknown game mechanic that we can do in stations. I hope that in this sci fi universe most of the important stuff continues to happen in spaceship battles.
I hope the road map is ôonce you can *walk in stations* we are done with incarna until we have polished every aspect of the space ship gameö
I realize they are going to continue redirect resources to incarna no matter what I or any other player wants. Nonetheless I can still express my view that I wish they would stop neglecting everything else in the game to spend even more time on this prized egg called incarna. Please CCP get back to the spaceship game asap.
-Cearain
Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906 |
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mazzilliu
Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.03.07 21:53:00 -
[31]
haha, you guys are super dumb releasing a public letter
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Weltact
INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2011.03.07 21:58:00 -
[32]
I couldn't care less about Incarna either. Chances are CCP does what it always does and run for the next distraction to talk about on a tradeshow. But Incarna is a cornerstone to the tech framework for WoD, so it's getting a hell of a lot more focus than stuff in the past like FW or such, or so was said last year in Cologne at the GDC convention.
So they will pursue the path. Whether we like it or not. It seems to me to not be a bad thing to watch carefully whether CCP can maintain a balance between spaceships and Incarna. God knows they have a history of kneejerking in one way or the other, but never doing two things right at the same time.
We're not going to get em back to just spaceships. They can't, not after so many years of repeting it everywhere. Moving away from Incarna would be akin to tossing the towel in the ring, which they can't do because that's not awesome. Nor does that give awards.
Originally by: Cearain
Originally by: Mynxee ....However, given how crucial Incarna is to the future ....
Our first and most crucial concern is that there is little evidence so far of a roadmap for this feature. We are extremely concerned that development of Incarna, the most significant addition to EVE since Beta, .... We want to see Incarna fully fleshed-out. How that is done and how the evolution of Incarna is messaged will be key challenges for CCP over the next several expansions. We hope that CCP will view these expressions of concern as useful feedback that will be helpful in properly justifying and measuring the resources being devoted to Incarna.....
I respectfully, disagree with what is said here. For me I really couldnÆt care less about incarna. I highly doubt it will be that important for the way I play eve. Moreover, I wish they would just spit it out and go back to spaceships.
I do not want them to spend any more time trying to ôflesh outö some as yet unknown game mechanic that we can do in stations. I hope that in this sci fi universe most of the important stuff continues to happen in spaceship battles.
I hope the road map is ôonce you can *walk in stations* we are done with incarna until we have polished every aspect of the space ship gameö
I realize they are going to continue redirect resources to incarna no matter what I or any other player wants. Nonetheless I can still express my view that I wish they would stop neglecting everything else in the game to spend even more time on this prized egg called incarna. Please CCP get back to the spaceship game asap.
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Di Mulle
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Posted - 2011.03.07 22:52:00 -
[33]
Signed...
One may hope CCP has prepared some fresh air for the FanFest, but personally I am embracing for the worst scenario. "You will do stuff here, you know, secret, dark stuff and it will be, hm, err, awesome stuff. Yes, awesome !" All it will be wrapped in some hurp-durp of funny video presentations about nothing.
Offtopic. Have I missed something ? Have there been not only a spoongate, but also a mazziliu-got-touched-in-a bad-place-gate ?
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Bomberlocks
Minmatar CTRL-Q
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Posted - 2011.03.07 23:00:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Cearain
Originally by: Mynxee ....However, given how crucial Incarna is to the future ....
Our first and most crucial concern is that there is little evidence so far of a roadmap for this feature. We are extremely concerned that development of Incarna, the most significant addition to EVE since Beta, .... We want to see Incarna fully fleshed-out. How that is done and how the evolution of Incarna is messaged will be key challenges for CCP over the next several expansions. We hope that CCP will view these expressions of concern as useful feedback that will be helpful in properly justifying and measuring the resources being devoted to Incarna.....
I respectfully, disagree with what is said here. For me I really couldnÆt care less about incarna. I highly doubt it will be that important for the way I play eve. Moreover, I wish they would just spit it out and go back to spaceships.
I do not want them to spend any more time trying to ôflesh outö some as yet unknown game mechanic that we can do in stations. I hope that in this sci fi universe most of the important stuff continues to happen in spaceship battles.
I hope the road map is ôonce you can *walk in stations* we are done with incarna until we have polished every aspect of the space ship gameö
I realize they are going to continue redirect resources to incarna no matter what I or any other player wants. Nonetheless I can still express my view that I wish they would stop neglecting everything else in the game to spend even more time on this prized egg called incarna. Please CCP get back to the spaceship game asap.
While I support Mynxee absolutely on the issue of CCP needing to communicate their plans on Incarna gameplay if such plans actually exist - which I seriously doubt, since I think Incarna is just an Alpha/Beta run for those in CCP who hope to make a name for themselves in WoD - I tend to agree with Cearain that, knowing CCP's inability to budge on things they're fixated on, it would be better for them to just get it over with and then ignore it like they do most expansions. I hope that after those people in CCP who are responsible for this mess are done with it and move on to WoD, that the remaining devs will be able to get on with fixing the more pressing issues of the game.
That said, CCP knows full well the consequences of messing up, as they learned at their own cost last year after the June CSM summit, and pushing the players a little bit more towards the cliff of rage is something that is not likey to end well for them or their business.
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Bring Stabity
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Posted - 2011.03.07 23:39:00 -
[35]
Incarna is a dumb waste of time in a game with overwhelming gameplay issues that need addressing over an expansion that is 90% cosmetic and won't fix any problems. If only mazzillu realized this then that is really depressing.
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Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.03.07 23:45:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Bring Stabity Incarna is a dumb waste of time in a game with overwhelming gameplay issues that need addressing over an expansion that is 90% cosmetic and won't fix any problems. If only mazzillu realized this then that is really depressing.
pretty sure what mazz realized is what an NDA is
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Bomberlocks
Minmatar CTRL-Q
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Posted - 2011.03.07 23:51:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Weaselior
Originally by: Bring Stabity Incarna is a dumb waste of time in a game with overwhelming gameplay issues that need addressing over an expansion that is 90% cosmetic and won't fix any problems. If only mazzillu realized this then that is really depressing.
pretty sure what mazz realized is what an NDA is
Except that nothing in the open letter isn't public knowledge and therefore not under NDA, unless the NDA magically means saying nice things about CCP all the time.
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Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.03.07 23:53:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Bomberlocks
Originally by: Weaselior
Originally by: Bring Stabity Incarna is a dumb waste of time in a game with overwhelming gameplay issues that need addressing over an expansion that is 90% cosmetic and won't fix any problems. If only mazzillu realized this then that is really depressing.
pretty sure what mazz realized is what an NDA is
Except that nothing in the open letter isn't public knowledge and therefore not under NDA, unless the NDA magically means saying nice things about CCP all the time.
let me explain how an NDA works in this circumstance
"**** you, you're out of the running for CSM"
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Bring Stabity
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Posted - 2011.03.07 23:54:00 -
[39]
Serious question: What does Incarna offer mothership and titan pilots. As a titan pilot I feel slighted that a whole expansion is being dedicated to "walking in stations" which I can not partake in.
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Mynxee
Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2011.03.07 23:56:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Mynxee on 07/03/2011 23:58:25 What Bomberlocks just said regarding NDA and the content of the open letter. Besides which, our advocates and much of CCP is already familiar with the content of the letter since they were given a preview weeks ago. No one raised the NDA flag at that time or since.
As far as whether or not Incarna should or shouldn't be something added to EVE, that is water long over the bridge. It is on the books and there's no going back. With that as a given, the CSM's role is to help ensure that it meets players expectations and benefits the game as much as possible--not just in the immediate release but over time. Both of those things are only possible if CCP engages with the CSM and communicates with the players (or lets the CSM do so) in a fact-based and timely manner.
Chair, CSM5
CSM6 Page on Facebook--keep up with all candidates in one place! |
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iP0D
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Posted - 2011.03.08 00:00:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Bring Stabity Serious question: What does Incarna offer mothership and titan pilots. As a titan pilot I feel slighted that a whole expansion is being dedicated to "walking in stations" which I can not partake in.
Serious answer: nothing. But, while Incarna has a high potential to be enforced partially or selectively, it is something that solely applies to station environments. Cnsidering there's been mention of special Incarna "nodes" and such, I doubt CCP even considers expanding it to Captain's Quarters inside ships - I could be wrong though.
Not so serious answer: look on the bright side. Being in a supercap will save you plenty of Plexes in not buying pink dresses, tattoes, earrings and hats
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Krutoj
Caldari The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2011.03.08 00:12:00 -
[42]
Originally by: mazzilliu haha, you guys are super dumb releasing a public letter
am still suprised she didnt ask for 2nd term of CSM "just because" in it.
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Olivia Ironsides
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Posted - 2011.03.08 00:29:00 -
[43]
Originally by: iP0D
Originally by: Bring Stabity Serious question: What does Incarna offer mothership and titan pilots. As a titan pilot I feel slighted that a whole expansion is being dedicated to "walking in stations" which I can not partake in.
Serious answer: nothing. But, while Incarna has a high potential to be enforced partially or selectively, it is something that solely applies to station environments. Cnsidering there's been mention of special Incarna "nodes" and such, I doubt CCP even considers expanding it to Captain's Quarters inside ships - I could be wrong though.
Not so serious answer: look on the bright side. Being in a supercap will save you plenty of Plexes in not buying pink dresses, tattoes, earrings and hats
so I have to wait 2 years for any chance at content relevant to my playing
sounds like a great game these 1 year development cycles are fantastic!
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TeaDaze
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2011.03.08 02:04:00 -
[44]
Originally by: 4C 4F 5645 While i am worried about the state of development for Incarna i disagree with the CSM on the integration issue: if Incarna is to have any success or relevancy whatsoever it should be fully integrated within EvE and CCP need to have the guts to stick to their guns and not give in to the "never change anything" crowd.
If the feature is compelling enough to attract players (be it as an RP environment or with its own gameplay) then it doesn't require enforced participation. How can a feature be defined as a success if the only option to avoid it is to quit?
Originally by: 4C 4F 5645
I do agree you shouldn't have to run down kilometers of tunnels to dock, undock or switch a ship or fitting. But that dosen't mean that all station services present and future should be available outside Incarna or that there shouldn't be an Incarna-only economy and Incarna-only gameplay that is relevant and affects the larger picture - including the spaceship game.
I agree that Incarna should have its own gameplay and that it should allow access to the current in hanger features. What it shouldn't be is a total replacement for the hanger environment for those of us who are not interested in walking around when docked. From the information in the CQ blog it seems it will be a total replacement of the hanger environment.
My concern is that CCP are going to take the easy option and not only make Incarna participation required at the docking stage but also provide "flying in space" changing stuff only available in station to further enforce participation (we discussed some of this under NDA). This would make even an "optional" Incarna about as optional as actually fitting modules to your ship - yeah you could do it but why would you ;)
Originally by: 4C 4F 5645 It should be optional in the same sense Wormhole Space is optional. You can opt out, but you also miss out.
I agree here and am quite happy to "miss out" on minigames and walking around if the option was there. Whilst on the subject (and because people have been attacking me for suggesting that Incarna being optional would make sense).
W-space is optional Planetary interaction is optional (and most people have opted out according to the figures we have) Mining is optional - you can pay others to do it for you or get minerals elsewhere Missions are optional - other ways to make money are available Running a POS is optional Market trading is optional Sov is optional - You can live elsewhere PvP can be optional/avoidable (if you stay awake ;)) etc
But - Incarna participation will be enforced (unless CCP change their mind).
Making Incarna participation optional will not ruin your immersion but making it enforced ruins mine...
TeaDaze.net Blog | CSM Database |
mazzilliu
Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.03.08 02:04:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Bomberlocks
Originally by: Weaselior
Originally by: Bring Stabity Incarna is a dumb waste of time in a game with overwhelming gameplay issues that need addressing over an expansion that is 90% cosmetic and won't fix any problems. If only mazzillu realized this then that is really depressing.
pretty sure what mazz realized is what an NDA is
Except that nothing in the open letter isn't public knowledge and therefore not under NDA, unless the NDA magically means saying nice things about CCP all the time.
this has nothing to do with an NDA
it has everything to do with alienation.
see, the csm has benefited greatly from ****storms aimed at ccp. the summer rage meant ccp gave the csm big cookies to help deal with the player concerns, and i think that the csm sort of hopes that this will happen again.
That's stupid and it won't, because this is completely different than the summer PR incident. first of all in the summer the rage was aimed at the higherups who have the power to make major changes. this letter is trying to start a ****storm directed at the grunts of ccp, and it's telling because it speaks about implementation details. it's not going to work because those grunts of ccp aren't directly beholden to the media, and they aren't required to answer to the CSM or include them in operational details. it's also entirely the wrong way to go about it since they will take it as an insult to their livelihood. incarna to you is a game, incarna to them is a way to feed themselves, and they will do anything to keep that from being jeopardized.
devs aren't required to give the csm so much as the time of day, they only do it if they want to. and they're only going to do it if they think it's safe. we've proven ourselves willing to start pr **** when we don't get our way so this isn't going to help their willingness to deal with us. Thankfully most of us are leaving office, especially the people who were behind this. trebor and helen were supportive of the letter though, something voters might want to keep in mind.
i signed my name to the private letter because i agree with its points, but i'm not going to associate myself with the public letter. even if we get our way it isn't worth the risk that we go back to being csm-in-the-dark that we were during the csm 1-4.
this is stupid; i cant believe i'm the only person who thinks this; screw you guys im goin home
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.03.08 03:14:00 -
[46]
It would be absurd to say anything in this letter violates an NDA. It is simply their requests. I don't see this as any sort of **** storm either.
I do agree ccp should communicate - I suppose. I also agree that incarna shouldn't screw up the spaceship game by making docking/undocking take unreasonably long or causing lag etc.
I am also not suggesting that CCP scrap incarna. That would just be dumb.
But I am saying I do not expect anything more than just being able to walk in stations. I donÆt expect fireworks or some whole new fantastic game.
There are all sorts of games where you can do hand to hand or gun combat in space station settings. IÆm not interested. I donÆt want ccp thinking that they need to keep working on incarna until they come up with something great. The whole genre has been beat to death.
If they get some inspiration 5 years from now thatÆs fine. But donÆt force it because some players feel they have some sort of right to something more substantial than ôwalking in stations.ö
Just make us able to walk in stations in the most basic form possible. Then reassign the *vast* majority of devs back to spaceships.
I listened to part of the ôlost in eveö csm debate. Seleene said CCP had only implemented a small portion of what they had planned for the spaceship game. There is allot more they can do in this game but they need to wrap up the incarna stuff and get to it.
-Cearain
Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906 |
PC l0adletter
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Posted - 2011.03.08 03:16:00 -
[47]
Originally by: mazzilliu it has everything to do with alienation.
Eh, they left us first
Originally by: mazzilliu csm sort of hopes that this will happen again
I think you're attributing unduly specific intent to the diffuse anger of tens of thousands of people who quit and posted about it last summer. They were trying to reach senior management but not mid-to-lower management and grunts? What? They were ****ed off and posted everywhere cuz they hoped it would make a difference or because they felt like something was taken from them and were mad.
I suspect CSM5ers think incarna will provoke :rage: with its bugs and slowness and no gameplay. They'd have to be huffing some pretty sweet ether to imagine a strongly-worded letter is gonna cause rage on its own; they're not morons. They're getting out ahead of the inevitable (to avoid blame, to mitigate damage if possible, to make a point, etc.)
Originally by: mazzilliu will take it as an insult to their livelihood. incarna to you is a game, incarna to them is a way to feed themselves, and they will do anything to keep that from being jeopardized.
If they're looking to feed themselves by continuing to alienate their customers with idiotic priorities way outside their core competencies, then I hope they buried a lot of shark fins in the sand last summer.
Time was, eve had 60 mil in annual revenue and could feed lots of people if it was tended to. Howeer, since that wasn't as much fun as making console FPS and repeatedly learning to make a 3d engine, it got de-prioritized. Plus, i hear vampires are gonna be all the rage with the young folks around the 2012 holiday season. Could be bigger than farmville!
What people do or do not say about CCP/incarna/eve and in what forum doesn't much matter except to the extent that it's true or not. If it turns out to be a huge success because what second life was really missing was a buggy, laggy, primitive space sim with a sadistic UI played largely by bots, then nobody will care what was posted where and when and by whom.
Originally by: mazzilliu they're only going to do it if they think it's safe
pretty sure that ship has sailed.
Originally by: mazzilliu trebor and helen were supportive of the letter though, something voters might want to keep in mind.
First mittens sperging all over SHC and now this. Trebor, you have a really strange way of lobbying for support.
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mazzilliu
Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.03.08 03:59:00 -
[48]
Originally by: PC l0adletter
Originally by: mazzilliu it has everything to do with alienation.
Eh, they left us first
this csm term has enjoyed an unprecedented level of inclusion. keeping going in the direction of public complaints at things we don't like will jeopardize that
the rest of your reply is just spouting off at how you think ccp should be run. that's nice, go get a job in ccp upper management. my concern is with the csm and making sure that next term it gets to have the meaningful discussions that it's enjoyed this term.
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Dacil Arandur
Cognitive Industries
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Posted - 2011.03.08 07:38:00 -
[49]
Originally by: mazzilliu
Originally by: PC l0adletter
Originally by: mazzilliu it has everything to do with alienation.
Eh, they left us first
this csm term has enjoyed an unprecedented level of inclusion. keeping going in the direction of public complaints at things we don't like will jeopardize that
the rest of your reply is just spouting off at how you think ccp should be run. that's nice, go get a job in ccp upper management. my concern is with the csm and making sure that next term it gets to have the meaningful discussions that it's enjoyed this term.
mazz, your new portrait is freaking gold.
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Kireiina
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Posted - 2011.03.08 08:01:00 -
[50]
Incarna is just code that can be back-ported from WoD development without too much work so of course there's no Eve specific planning.
Nor is there any reason for there to be as Incarna *has no gameplay*.
I don't want a "roadmap", I don't expect CCP to stop working on it (They've invested so much in WoD they can't stop), I just don't want CCP or the CSM considering it as anything other than a cosmetic decoration on Eve.
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Bomberlocks
Minmatar CTRL-Q
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Posted - 2011.03.08 08:14:00 -
[51]
Originally by: mazzilliu
Originally by: PC l0adletter
Originally by: mazzilliu it has everything to do with alienation.
Eh, they left us first
this csm term has enjoyed an unprecedented level of inclusion. keeping going in the direction of public complaints at things we don't like will jeopardize that
the rest of your reply is just spouting off at how you think ccp should be run. that's nice, go get a job in ccp upper management. my concern is with the csm and making sure that next term it gets to have the meaningful discussions that it's enjoyed this term.
I thought you were quitting eve so why the concern?
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Gehen Sealbreaker
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.03.08 09:46:00 -
[52]
The recent release of information about Captain's Quarters was a good example of the communication efforts the community should receive more often about Incarna. But all this lacks a bigger picture, a roadmap of sorts.
If I have a seat at the CSM, I'll be sure to continue your work on the crucial matter of communication between CCP and the players. --------------------------------------- Gehen Sealbreaker
Candidate for CSM 6 ! - "The universe is ours" |
Jagga Spikes
Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2011.03.08 11:40:00 -
[53]
Originally by: mazzilliu ... this is completely different than the summer PR incident. first of all in the summer the rage was aimed at the higherups who have the power to make major changes. this letter is trying to start a ****storm directed at the grunts of ccp, and it's telling because it speaks about implementation details. ...
considering this public letter addresses design (gameplay) how can it be considered aiming at grunts? ________________________________ : Forum Bore 'Em : Foamy The Squirrel - [jedi handwave] "There is no spoon." |
mazzilliu
Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.03.08 13:28:00 -
[54]
Edited by: mazzilliu on 08/03/2011 13:28:46
Originally by: Jagga Spikes
Originally by: mazzilliu ... this is completely different than the summer PR incident. first of all in the summer the rage was aimed at the higherups who have the power to make major changes. this letter is trying to start a ****storm directed at the grunts of ccp, and it's telling because it speaks about implementation details. ...
considering this public letter addresses design (gameplay) how can it be considered aiming at grunts?
high level concerns: "hey you don't have anybody assigned to working on EVE" -summer, 2010, something only the higherups can deal with
low level concerns: "hey, why is this feature mandatory" -this letter, 2011, something only the grunts can deal with
Originally by: Bomberlocks
Originally by: mazzilliu
Originally by: PC l0adletter
Originally by: mazzilliu it has everything to do with alienation.
Eh, they left us first
this csm term has enjoyed an unprecedented level of inclusion. keeping going in the direction of public complaints at things we don't like will jeopardize that
the rest of your reply is just spouting off at how you think ccp should be run. that's nice, go get a job in ccp upper management. my concern is with the csm and making sure that next term it gets to have the meaningful discussions that it's enjoyed this term.
I thought you were quitting eve so why the concern?
what you think i'm doing and what i'm actually doing are probably two separate things
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Amaratha
Wraith.Wing Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2011.03.08 14:11:00 -
[55]
Same drama, different day. Do you really think that after god knows how long CCP have spent, doing ambulation/Walking in Stations/Incarna or whatever they call it next, to just make it optional? It was silly to think that anything less would happen. I'm not surprised at all.
I also think we don't know what we want and the CSM couldn't represent it accurately anyway. For months before Incursion 'the big moan' was 'fix rockets' and they were fixed. What did we moan about next? Well now it seems to be macros. Its cyclical as well, complaining about macros happened a lot before unholy rage and I would predict it will happen again, after the issue after macros is fixed. Why aren't the CSM raging about macros; there's a lot more care about it than worry about what's coming? http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1426740 and the proof is this thread is 2 pages after several hours since I first saw it.
Now the CSM are trying to pre-emptively change Incarna without seeing the feedback, it hasn't even got on Sisi yet. Seems like this is the Dieing breaths of a CSM representing what's best for the golden oldies of eve, not the people who like the game enough just to accept it for what it is, with a few tweaks. What a waste of a legacy. Eagles Fly high! Weazels dont get sucked into jet engines! |
Serious Internet Politician
www.seriousinternetpolitician.com
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Posted - 2011.03.08 14:18:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Serious Internet Politician on 08/03/2011 14:21:59
There is something weird happening to the post above me and its freaking me out.
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xDaKewlGuyx
Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2011.03.08 14:28:00 -
[57]
Incarna wouldn't be a problem if there was a way to opt out of it. There isn't, at this point. Instead of being able to conveniently click a bunch of buttons we will be forced to walk around in a station to do these things.
I don't want to do such a stupid thing. I play this game to fly a spaceship, not wander around struggling with an obnoxious interface. |
GateScout
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Posted - 2011.03.08 14:34:00 -
[58]
I think the CSM's concerns about the success or failure of Incarna are grossly overblown. While their point of the importantance of planning are spot on, those issues are generic and apply to every project in every business area.
Let's look at Incara:
Worse case, it's an abject failure and we (the players of Eve) are forced to spend a few seconds in an crappy avatar. However the rest of Eve should stay generally the same. It's still going to be the game we love. Of course, there are the lost cycles that CCP could have been putting into Eve. While true, they are already lost if this is a failure...and they are no more lost as if they were put on another PI feature (or pick your preferred "waste" of resources). End result., we still have eve and hopefully CCP will go back to doing what it does best
Best case: Incarna is a success. It's deepens the game play. Increases immersion and player interaction. It enhances the game we love. It bring in new subscribers for us to blow up/sell stuff to/scam/whatever.
The bottom line is that this isn't as dire as the CSM seems to be making it out to be. If CCP doesn't know where Incarna is headed, who cares? They didn't know where Eve was headed...and probably still don't. That's an asset. Unless the CSM knows something we don't, the "worst case" isn't that big of a deal. The risk to reward still seems to be in our favor.
Oh yeah....this is still a game. Enjoy it. ...or don't.
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Ritha Tyr
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Posted - 2011.03.08 14:36:00 -
[59]
Considering the stunt with this letter, its no wonder why CCP doesn't want to show an Incarna roadmap at this stage. It's in their best interest (and possibly everyone else's) to at least wait until this CSM leaves office. Also, as far as timing goes, with Fan Fest right around the corner, and CSM elections coming up, why on earth would they talk more about Incarna now?
I think Mazzilliu is right, this public letter potentially does more harm then good. Not just with CCP, but also with regard to how the CSM is viewed by the players. If this letter had come out after Fan Fest, as the result of a lack of information revealed, then that would make sense. As it is, the timing seems to be in the best interest of only a few.
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Jame Jarl Retief
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Posted - 2011.03.08 14:57:00 -
[60]
Personally I would have waited the two weeks until Fanfest before posting a public letter. Two weeks' wait wouldn't change anything. But based on information general public might get about Incarna, such a letter might get much more public exposure and support and result in actual action.
Right now, most players know nothing about Incarna beyond captain's quarters, and even that is just a rough idea - we don't know how movement will be handled, etc., etc. It's not on Sisi yet either, but should be this or next week unless their schedule changed.
As a result, most of us can't honestly say /agree or /disagree or even /you are overreacting, because we simply don't know. Won't know, for at least two weeks. So what purpose can such a letter serve at this point in time aside from creating anxiety? Sounds like something that should have been worked out privately, or post-Fanfest.
But that's my take on it based on what I know about Incarna. Which is practically nothing. I understand CSM may be privy to information under NDA that makes them act this way, and I find it very disturbing. For many of us Incarna is a "make it or break it" feature. If it turns out to be a total letdown, and all we get this summer is one character in a tiny room doing nothing except converting oxygen to carbon dioxide, followed by another 6 months or more of iteration of more tiny rooms in which one or more characters will be converting oxygen to carbon dioxide together, that's a year wasted. The payoff for the amount of work spent on it would be slim and none.
I understand that CCP needs Carbon/Incarna both for EVE as a platform for future non-ship content as well as WoD, but they need to remember that they can't leave the space portion of EVE to stagnate for years while they do it. APB is a good example - developers spent an awful lot of time on the character creator - which was frankly amazing - but forgot the rest of the game. As a result, it was one of the quickest and most brutal failures in MMO history - under 3 months from release to server shutdown.
Bottom line, speaking for myself, I don't know what to think. Obviously CSM is deeply concerned, and I assume they have more information than we do, albeit under the NDA. But is it bad enough to risk bad blood between present/future CSM and CCP for going public, especially in light of recent "CCP and CSM strengthening the bond" interview a month or two ago? I guess time will tell. |
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TeaDaze
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2011.03.08 15:55:00 -
[61]
Originally by: mazzilliu high level concerns: "hey you don't have anybody assigned to working on EVE" -summer, 2010, something only the higherups can deal with
low level concerns: "hey, why is this feature mandatory" -this letter, 2011, something only the grunts can deal with
Utter drivel
It is the management/vision/producer level staff within CCP who should be making those kind of key strategic decisions not the "grunts" working on one part of a feature.
We've been waiting for answers to questions and constructive feedback raised in December and haven't heard anything. An internal letter was sent to CCP last month and all we got back was the CQ blog which didn't address anything significant.
This letter hasn't damaged any working relationship with the Incarna teams because there wasn't a working relationship with them in the first place
TeaDaze.net Blog | CSM Database |
Natalia Kovac
Minmatar Stimulus Rote Kapelle
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Posted - 2011.03.08 16:03:00 -
[62]
Edited by: Natalia Kovac on 08/03/2011 16:04:24 Frankly I think Incarna is going to be great. I spent a lot of time crafting my virtual ass, and I expect to spend a lot of time fapping over it.
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Seleene
Body Count Inc. Cascade Imminent
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Posted - 2011.03.08 16:15:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Seleene on 08/03/2011 16:15:23
Originally by: Natalia Kovac Edited by: Natalia Kovac on 08/03/2011 16:04:24 Frankly I think Incarna is going to be great. I spent a lot of time crafting my virtual ass, and I expect to spend a lot of time fapping over it.
What about all those guys with male avatars tho? If you're not gay... PLEX for sex-change? These are important questions!
I've blogged on this and I'm going to stick with my initial take on Incarna - CCP has to 'deliver' the goods and make it interesting. Thus far, CCP has not shown that they have a PLAN (there's that word again) for doing that and I don't think this public letter would have become public if the current CSM had been given any kind of bread crumbs to reassure them. ----
Seleene 4 CSM6 - EVE ONLINE - ITERATIONS |
mazzilliu
Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.03.08 17:57:00 -
[64]
Originally by: TeaDaze
Originally by: mazzilliu high level concerns: "hey you don't have anybody assigned to working on EVE" -summer, 2010, something only the higherups can deal with
low level concerns: "hey, why is this feature mandatory" -this letter, 2011, something only the grunts can deal with
Utter drivel
It is the management/vision/producer level staff within CCP who should be making those kind of key strategic decisions not the "grunts" working on one part of a feature.
We've been waiting for answers to questions and constructive feedback raised in December and haven't heard anything. An internal letter was sent to CCP last month and all we got back was the CQ blog which didn't address anything significant.
This letter hasn't damaged any working relationship with the Incarna teams because there wasn't a working relationship with them in the first place
you still can't disagree that the two complaints are of a completely different nature. one is something that can be seen as a reasonable request all around, the other can be seen as trying to dictate game features by others. one is broad and allows for a lot of leeway in the possible responses, the other is specific and narrow and not to mention ignorant of whatever operational constraints may be imposed on the team.
the csm's relationship with the incarna team might not have possibly gotten worse but we've just broadcasted a message to the rest of the teams saying hey guys, if you dont do something we really want you to do, we're going to try publicly shaming you. GOOD WORK GUYS
with regards to the timing issues brought forth by others: the letter was supposed to be released two weeks ago, since i raised up such a stink about it and the csm was concerned about being perceived as acting maliciously, and ccp said they would be taking time to draft a response(incarna devblog). but in the end NOBODY's minds changed because of it. We can't really release this letter much later than this because our term is ending, although most functional activity of the csm seems to have ceased at around the time of this letter anyways. |
Virtuozzo
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2011.03.08 20:57:00 -
[65]
Originally by: mazzilliu Now on Fox News: State of Fear - how to preserve reverse social engineering!
Sorry, I could not resist that wide open door
Anyway, earlier today I left a comment on Keith's blog, which was promptly turned into a guest post, where I left my own observations on the matter of the Incarna Open Letter. It is best read there, and until we get new forums the character limit here is a bit restrictive
Anyhow. I understand where the sentiment of buffering against perceptions of butthurt comes from. But it is unwarranted, unnecessary, and counterproductive.
Unwarranted because this is CCP we are talking about. A company that dares to be different, that wants to conquer the world. They know that is never smooth sailing, and takes a lot of hardship.
Unnecessary again because this is CCP, they have an open business culture with clear company values which they stick to. If folks working there get butthurt over an open letter, it is more from individual confusion between work and person than from an absence of such company values.
Counterproductive because this open letter, the process, the communication, the accountability, it is all exactly part of the mission of CSM as a stakeholder as laid out by CCP's CEO. Providing feedback is but one part of it, challenging CCP another, and both are inherent elements required in any external stakeholder interaction. yes it is a learning curve on all sides, but that is fine. CCP are humans, but strong people, and they are a team.
Just like in my comments on Keith's blog, it is still best demonstrated by the words of CCP's Chairman of the Board of Directors. It's from 2009, yet still applies to everything CCP takes on. As a company, as people.
Quote: CCPæs culture is strong, and is built on four core values: We are fearless, we stand united, we pursue excellence, we practice transparency. Such values cannot simply be dictated by committe or by installed by fiat. They have to be lived and breathed by everyone in the company, including the board and its chairman, or they are not credible. Also, the values are truly validated only when there is a crisis or a severe test facing the company. Will it then live up to its values, or are they empty talk?
Vilhjalmur Thorsteinsson
Those are very wise words, and the thoughts behind it are even smarter. They are good lessons, and values, not just for CCP as a company, but also as people, and equally for the dynamic that they created - of which CCP, CSM and customers alike are a part of.
≡v≡ once was about internet spaceships. Then those became serious business. Now all that is left is serious business, and spaceships are docked for two years till after the Dust of Incar |
Tiny Montgomery
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Posted - 2011.03.09 00:14:00 -
[66]
Just out of curiosity has there been any communication/progress on any other issues in the last 2 months? You know, the other stuff that you guys were actually elected to push CCP to work on? Low Sec proposals? Hybrid fixes? Or have all efforts been dedicated to badgering CCP about Incarna? I confess I haven't been following much lately, but it seems that since the December Summit there hasn't been much done or said that was productive. Shame since up until that point a lot had actually been accomplished (I am not being sarcastic).
TBH I think the CSM's mandate should not be to "call bull****" but to help get the things that are currently broken in game, fixed. The players have all been clamouring for things to get fixed and the CSM was helping with that. The fixes in "Incursion" are a clear example of the CSM's impact and progress on that front. The outrage in June seemed to stem very much from the perception that CCP wasn't going to be adding or fixing anything other than Incarna for 18 months. And now this CSM has taken a page from that book and doesn't seem interested in anything other than Incarna. Ironic. |
Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente Sane Industries Inc. Initiative Mercenaries
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Posted - 2011.03.09 00:36:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Virtuozzo It is best read there, and until we get new forums the character limit here is a bit restrictive
I begged the EVEGate Forums team to impose a special 140-character length limit on Virtuozzo posts, but they refused, on the grounds that Virtposts are incredibly useful as forum stress-tests.
On a more serious note, a reply I posted in my campaign thread gives my perspective on how the letter evolved.
Re-Elect Trebor to the CSM! Free Lottery! Click for more details!
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TeaDaze
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2011.03.09 02:04:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Tiny Montgomery Just out of curiosity has there been any communication/progress on any other issues in the last 2 months? You know, the other stuff that you guys were actually elected to push CCP to work on? Low Sec proposals? Hybrid fixes? Or have all efforts been dedicated to badgering CCP about Incarna? I confess I haven't been following much lately, but it seems that since the December Summit there hasn't been much done or said that was productive. Shame since up until that point a lot had actually been accomplished (I am not being sarcastic).
CCP did their release planning in Jan so we're at the stage of waiting to hear back on which items are being progressed and which have been shelved. Since December CCP have started providing weekly updates to CSM of where things are, but unless they give permission we can't discuss features in progress in case they get dropped.
Just to make it clear, CCP have stated that no stakeholder group within the Eve project has guaranteed development time allocated so it is entirely possible that no CSM issues will get worked on for a whole release cycle. However in this cycle a team is spending some of their time working on quick fixes identified by CSM and players.
Originally by: Tiny Montgomery TBH I think the CSM's mandate should not be to "call bull****" but to help get the things that are currently broken in game, fixed. The players have all been clamouring for things to get fixed and the CSM was helping with that. The fixes in "Incursion" are a clear example of the CSM's impact and progress on that front. The outrage in June seemed to stem very much from the perception that CCP wasn't going to be adding or fixing anything other than Incarna for 18 months. And now this CSM has taken a page from that book and doesn't seem interested in anything other than Incarna. Ironic.
See above, release planning has been done and so no further issues can realistically be added at this stage. CSM focus until the next round of release planning is on providing feedback unless a team has time to work on something else at which point we'll do what we can to get more issues pushed forward. This cycle will continue for as long as CCP have a two release per year schedule.
The role of the CSM continues to evolve and that is likely to continue into CSM6 and beyond. It simply isn't worthwhile going back to the old system of just raising hundreds of new issues because CCP simply don't have the development time to address more than a handful of them. The key time is providing the priority list (from the crowdsourcing) before the release planning (which we did) and attempting (as you pointed out) to get existing things fixed. The reason CSM are so interested in getting answers to Incarna questions is because that is the main focus of this release cycle.
TeaDaze.net Blog | CSM Database |
Lain Umi
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Posted - 2011.03.09 03:39:00 -
[69]
they better fix hybrids first. just sayin.
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mazzilliu
Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.03.09 04:53:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Virtuozzo
Originally by: mazzilliu Now on Fox News: State of Fear - how to preserve reverse social engineering!
Sorry, I could not resist that wide open door
clearly i am abstaining from signing my name to trick you.
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Gertrud ToD
Terrorists of Dimensions Electric Monkey Overlords
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Posted - 2011.03.09 07:15:00 -
[71]
so why exactly is incarna that important and crucial?
eve is about flying spaceships. thats what we all love about it, and i dont see how that incarna stuff improves anything? frankly, i think its a waste of resources.
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Helen Highwater
GoonWaffe
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Posted - 2011.03.09 08:14:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Gertrud ToD so why exactly is incarna that important and crucial?
eve is about flying spaceships. thats what we all love about it, and i dont see how that incarna stuff improves anything? frankly, i think its a waste of resources.
It's important because it's taking up a lot of CCP's development resources for a significant amount of time. Choosing to spend developer time on Incarna means that CCP has chosen not to spend that time on other things. I agree that Incarna is likely to offer little to no value for the majority of current Eve players. CCP thinks that it will attract new ones but I am sceptical of this. ----------------------------------------------------------
Helen Highwater for CSM 6. Death to bad ideas! |
Qual
Gallente Cornexant Research
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Posted - 2011.03.09 09:26:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Helen Highwater
Originally by: Gertrud ToD so why exactly is incarna that important and crucial?
eve is about flying spaceships. thats what we all love about it, and i dont see how that incarna stuff improves anything? frankly, i think its a waste of resources.
It's important because it's taking up a lot of CCP's development resources for a significant amount of time. Choosing to spend developer time on Incarna means that CCP has chosen not to spend that time on other things. I agree that Incarna is likely to offer little to no value for the majority of current Eve players. CCP thinks that it will attract new ones but I am sceptical of this.
No.
CCP is developing a Character & Environment engine for Carbon. They happen to have a huge playerbase to test it on in EVE-online, so they ahve decided to add the engine to EVE to test it out in real life before making World of Darkness and/or other Carbon based MMO's.
Incarna is a toy in EvE. Thats all.
CCP gets to develop and refine the content pipeline for the engine on a live game instead as a lab experiment.
If you think the reseources would have been used on EvE had they not made Incarna you are very wrong.
"The short version: Qual is right." -Papa Smurf |
Helen Highwater
GoonWaffe
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Posted - 2011.03.09 10:00:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Qual
No.
CCP is developing a Character & Environment engine for Carbon. They happen to have a huge playerbase to test it on in EVE-online, so they ahve decided to add the engine to EVE to test it out in real life before making World of Darkness and/or other Carbon based MMO's.
Incarna is a toy in EvE. Thats all.
CCP gets to develop and refine the content pipeline for the engine on a live game instead as a lab experiment.
If you think the reseources would have been used on EvE had they not made Incarna you are very wrong.
Except that the Carbon team is completely separate to the Incarna team or any of the other Eve teams. There are Eve resources being spent on Incarna over and above the Carbon integration. ----------------------------------------------------------
Helen Highwater for CSM 6. Death to bad ideas! |
Virtuozzo
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2011.03.09 11:29:00 -
[75]
As if I ever do excessive posting :P This I could not resist however, with a bit of a wink
Vote Seleene for CSM 6 (Blog) & Vote Trebor for CSM 6 (Blog)!
Vote Seleene for CSM 6 (Blog) & Vote Trebor for CSM 6 (Blog)!
≡v≡ once was about internet spaceships. Then those became serious business. Now all that is left is serious business, and spaceships are docked for two years till after the Dust of Incar |
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
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Posted - 2011.03.09 11:36:00 -
[76]
This is the kind of post CSM should more often/on a regular basis.
It is very hard to get a feeling you do something, this is great example of showing what you do, giving transparency, having a dialogue with both sides, etc. It also shows the CSM5 already done way more than any of the previous versions, by this post alone.
Thank you. -
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Joahan
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Posted - 2011.03.09 12:18:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Gertrud ToD so why exactly is incarna that important and crucial?
eve is about flying spaceships. thats what we all love about it, and i dont see how that incarna stuff improves anything? frankly, i think its a waste of resources.
It's a distraction for the players and for the designers. It isn't going to have any new functionality or gameplay that we are aware of, though there are many references to what it might be in the future. It will essentially be a better looking habbo hotel.
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Mynxee
Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2011.03.09 12:53:00 -
[78]
Edited by: Mynxee on 09/03/2011 12:56:07 Edited by: Mynxee on 09/03/2011 12:55:33
Originally by: Misanth This is the kind of post CSM should more often/on a regular basis.
It is very hard to get a feeling you do something, this is great example of showing what you do, giving transparency, having a dialogue with both sides, etc. It also shows the CSM5 already done way more than any of the previous versions, by this post alone.
Thank you.
Thanks for your comments, Misanth. The amount of time and effort it took to get to the point of publishing this letter was far above average, but we do have similar internal discussions and debates about many things that follow a similar process. This is a big part of the "unseen" time spent doing CSM stuff and it is considerable for those delegates who choose to participate in such discussions (not all do; for example, I contributed very little to the null sec discussion because I have no expertise that would allow useful participation). These discussions often involve topics that CCP has placed under NDA which is why they don't get shared with the public. The CSM internal forums are by default considered to be NDA, which helps to establish a comfort level for CSM and CCP to engage freely in discussion--particularly for people on the CCP side of the equation.
But CCP participation is optional; no one on the CCP side is required to engage with the CSM or answer our questions (with the possible exception of our advocates), nor come to the table to try and resolve grievances. It is easy to assume such a grievance--perhaps due to personality conflicts or personal issues with some CSM5 members--is held by the Incarna Team. We don't know. Perhaps we can make some assumptions about that when CSM6 takes office and we see how or if they are engaged by Team Incarna.
Chair, CSM5
CSM6 Page on Facebook--keep up with all candidates in one place! |
Mashie Saldana
Minmatar Veto Corp
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Posted - 2011.03.09 14:31:00 -
[79]
Originally by: TeaDaze But - Incarna participation will be enforced (unless CCP change their mind).
Making Incarna participation optional will not ruin your immersion but making it enforced ruins mine...
How will Incarna be enfoced on supercapital pilots or pilots living in W-space? I'm curious.
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iP0D
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Posted - 2011.03.09 14:50:00 -
[80]
Edited by: iP0D on 09/03/2011 14:50:46
Originally by: Mashie Saldana
Originally by: TeaDaze But - Incarna participation will be enforced (unless CCP change their mind).
Making Incarna participation optional will not ruin your immersion but making it enforced ruins mine...
How will Incarna be enfoced on supercapital pilots or pilots living in W-space? I'm curious.
Don't be silly, we all know Incarna is station environments. Unless you have a station on board of your supercap or in a wormhole those niches will be irrelevant for CCP in the topic :P
That does not diminish the importance being cautious of the mindset behind the approach of "X cannot be compelling unless it is enforced". With Incarna that is a topic, let's hope the paradigm does not spread beyond.
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Chuc Morris
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Posted - 2011.03.09 14:54:00 -
[81]
We have no real idea what's Incarna about unless "captain's quarters" and... and nothing else but "mabe's" and stuff alike, how can the CSM take players coments/sugestions seriously when even them are in the blackout? -aren't they supposed to be the comunity voice but also the "coolwater" for all the boilling threads?
It's pretty obvious that the "comunication" from CCP vs players has serious issues and vs CSM. At the end of the day the major part of the players has I do, whenever I get enraged (that happens pretty often ), we throw on CSM's back al this misscomunication issues.
Now I really hope for the grater good of this game I enjoy that CCP's Senior Dev's are capable to open their eyes a little bit and see the community waiting for answers from them and not only from you (actually I expect their answers for the issues you repport better than your repport of their answers).
Knowing whow senior dev's/managers act I will not expect any change in this sens and wish you guys good luck on trying. Profit to take some local beers and kiss some local chicks for me, at least that will profit a liitle bit to some eve's community
(sry for my poor english, not english native)
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.03.09 15:15:00 -
[82]
Edited by: Cearain on 09/03/2011 15:18:12 Edited by: Cearain on 09/03/2011 15:16:24
Originally by: TeaDaze The reason CSM are so interested in getting answers to Incarna questions is because that is the main focus of this release cycle.
Teadaze Thank you, for your work on csm. I voted for you last time and definitely feel I got my votes worth. Your main point in your campaign and throughout what you did on csm was you were going to push player concerns.
But here I think CCP is pulling a form of bait and switch on you. Tiny Montgomery is correct the players were extremely upset because they didnÆt care about incarna. CSM should continue to inform CCP of this fact and continue to push for the things players care about - Iterating on the spaceship game.
It seems to me that it is very hard to represent the playerÆs views about a game feature that isn't even out yet and they know nothing about. Sure you may know some things, but we don't. The only thing you know is that the players donÆt really care about incarna and were therefore upset that it was taking so many resources for such a long time period. That was clear right? If that was clear then how can the csm as representatives of the players say things like this:
ôgiven how crucial Incarna is to the future of EVE and CCPö ôthe success or failure of Incarna is such an important issueö
ôWe are extremely concerned that development of Incarna, the most significant addition to EVE since Beta,ö
ôrather we are primarily concerned about the apparent lack of significant planning for a feature CCP properly regards as crucial to the future of the company, and the game we love so much.ö
Huh?? I am left to wonder what ccp put in your beer. The players have said the opposite very clearly in June. Many left because they saw incarna as a big time waste and a guarantee that what they find ôcrucialö to the game may never get worked on.
The kicker is really this öWe want to see Incarna fully fleshed-out.ö I read this as "CCP spend more time on incarna than the 18 months you already set aside!" This couldnÆt be further from representing the playerÆs views.
I want incarna spit out asap so CCP can go back to spaceships asap. Players were ticked off that it took as long as it did. If itÆs not fleshed out so be it, I donÆt care. I care about ccp getting back to spaceships because that is what is crucial to eve û or at least my subscription to it and others who left the game. Not incarna.
If ccp wonÆt listen to what the players tell them that does not mean you should ignore what the players say and start playing along with what ccp is forcing down our throat. You simply need to report to the players that ccp is going to continue to ignore them until incarna is done.
You have always done a great job of this as far as I can tell and you achieved great results for the players. This letter thoughà. come on. ItÆs the opposite of what the clear majority of players said in june. In any event on the whole I would vote for you again û if you were offering to run. I think the csm got suckered into ccpÆs agenda a bit here but you would start to see straight eventually. Step back and you will see where tiny Montgomery is coming from.
-Cearain
Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906 |
Mashie Saldana
Minmatar Veto Corp
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Posted - 2011.03.09 15:19:00 -
[83]
Originally by: iP0D Edited by: iP0D on 09/03/2011 14:50:46
Originally by: Mashie Saldana
Originally by: TeaDaze But - Incarna participation will be enforced (unless CCP change their mind).
Making Incarna participation optional will not ruin your immersion but making it enforced ruins mine...
How will Incarna be enfoced on supercapital pilots or pilots living in W-space? I'm curious.
Don't be silly, we all know Incarna is station environments. Unless you have a station on board of your supercap or in a wormhole those niches will be irrelevant for CCP in the topic :P
That does not diminish the importance being cautious of the mindset behind the approach of "X cannot be compelling unless it is enforced". With Incarna that is a topic, let's hope the paradigm does not spread beyond.
It was just to point out that Incarna will be optional regardless how much CCP tries to enforce it. TaeDaze listed everything but Incarna in eve as optional. I just said it will be optional as well if you really truly hate it with every fibre of your body and don't want to participate. Just find a playstyle where you never have to dock.
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Ghost Miner101
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Posted - 2011.03.09 16:26:00 -
[84]
I know I am a new player in the grand scheme of things. And I know that I do not speak for anyone other than myself. But as this has become a huge issue and I have heard far more experienced players voice their opinion but not many newer players like me. A lot of you guys (and gals) have noted that there is little or no use to Incarna. And perhaps for the experienced players there wonÆt be. It will just be something you see for 30 seconds while you switch ships to go blow some poor person up. But as a newer player I believe that this at least has the makings to be very useful to the newer player. It could be a place that can give you direction, a place to see and understand before being thrown to the wolves. I tried to start this game once before and stopped simply from the fact that it was so open ended I had no idea what to do. Now that may seem ignorant and make me sound stupid but it is the truth. At least at the beginning you need some kind of go here do this to at least know how to do the various things. If you are searching for a way to actually make a reason for it think of this. If it even adds a tenth of the amount of people that currently play the game to the universe. Then is more then there are now. And that means more people to blow up for the experienced players and a more enjoyable experience being blown up for newer players like me. Because no matter how enjoyable a game is you need to have n0obs to make it better. Just my thoughts.
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.03.09 17:16:00 -
[85]
Edited by: Cearain on 09/03/2011 17:16:47 Ghost miner The tutorials will help you learn how to play eve. It's hard to see how you can better learn to fly a spaceship while in a station.
No one doubts that incarna will add players who would like a game where they walk around in a space station. But at least as of June of 2010 that was not our playerbase. Indeed itÆs pretty clear that the time and resources spent on incarna will cost eve at least some of its current players.
There are many players who continue to play with the hope that ccp will someday improve whatever it is they currently do. (For me its faction war.) The June summit minutes forced everyone to realize that whatever it is they would like done will almost certainly not get done for 18 months. That sucked to hear and more than a few quit. But some of us have decided to ride out the 18 months.
Now we get a csm letter that says ôflesh out incarnaö which can be interpreted as asking that they should do more with it than they already planned. Well à no. That is the complete opposite of the views of the players that I had read back in June.
The csm should represent the players that elected them. For the reasons I set forth in my prior post this letter does not entirely do that and in some ways completely contradicts the players' outcry.
-Cearain
Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906 |
Terminal Insanity
Minmatar Brutor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.03.09 17:51:00 -
[86]
Originally by: PC l0adletter buff the lag team
I think the biggest problem here is people don't know the difference between lag and bad FPS. tbh i think the lag issues are under control, and large fleet framerate(framerage?) is bad, at least on common systems (im on a q6600 with geforce 9800gtx and its literally unplayable in some fights)
I think more attention needs to be payed to framerate performance, and scaling down visual effects / 3d models automatically to improve framerate and UI responsiveness. Also, the option to specifically select what visual effects we see, would be great. (IE: so i can hide all the sebo effects only... etc)
TLDR: More graphics, more options to turn them off! (preferably, optionally, automatically)
.... AND audio (amarr *KCHHHHHH*KCHHHHHH*)
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Jowen Datloran
Caldari Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2011.03.09 22:32:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Helicity Boson
I'd much rather have CCP be open about being empty-handed for now, and actually asking us what WE would like in incarna.
I'm sorry CCP, I love you guys but "it's gonna be awesome!!1!" just doesn't cut it anymore.
Whoha, hold that quote. It always struck me as more odd than usual that CCP, after having presented a pretty nice demonstration of 'Incarca' (or 'Walking in Stations' at the time), to suddenly announce that they have scrapped the current concept and would make it something else instead. Ever since I saw this post in the Mission forum I have had a bad feeling about the direction of the concept.
I fully support the message of the CSM and the last line of your quote in particular, Helicity.
-- Mr. Science & Trade Institute - EVE Lorebook - Mysteries of W-space |
William Loire
State War Academy
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Posted - 2011.03.10 00:01:00 -
[88]
I'm not exactly referring to the CSM letter so much as most of the responses in this thread. You know when Incarna was first announced five years ago, I remember there being very little objection, I didn't see much support but the "this is a spaceship game" bitter vets mostly kept to themselves except for the odd post. Back then there was no capital sunk into Incarna, we weren't just about to receive the product.Now skip ahead to about a year ago. Incarna is about a year from it's initial release we now know. three to four years of development time, resources and capital already in use and suddenly the player base unites against the concept?
There was a time when we could have stood up and said no, that time has long gone. The product is here, get over it. It will barely effect you if you don't want to use it. If you feel the need to quit over Incarna then go have fun trying other MMO's. I did that for a year starting last july and I found myself coming back to make a new character simply because I couldn't find an MMO that satisfies like EVE.
Incarna is coming, you should have spoken up four years ago when it was reasonable for CCP to drop the idea.
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Latrodanes
Independent Combat Support Services
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Posted - 2011.03.10 00:06:00 -
[89]
Thanks for getting these points out in the open for all to see. Those of us who have followed the CSM's attempts over the past year have been tracking this, but other players may not have noted the true depth of worry around Incarna. Frankly, if Incarna is to be taken seriously by the player-base, there had better be one helluva huge reveal at this year's Fanfest. Otherwise, I am going to add this to the long list of semi-implemented bits n' pieces I've seen from CCP since I joined back in 2008.
Faction Warfare = fail Big Industry expansion => Orca Planetary Interaction => clickfest, or as my wife, an avid Facebook gamer, noted - "it's more boring and uglier than Farmville." PI 2 replaced clickfest with annoying processes = fail Incursions = happen in only six (6!) random (<cough> BS flag) constellations with little or no impact on the vast amjority of players
We've seen so many half-delivered promises and this is shaping up to be another one. I appreciate good marketing like the next player, but at least all those had quite a bit of planning and some semblence of intent before being released and abandoned. So, based on CCP's previous history, I'm just not going to hold out much faith this expansion will be any different and given the lack of planning, is on track to be worse.
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.03.10 03:00:00 -
[90]
Originally by: William Loire ... You know when Incarna was first announced five years ago, I remember there being very little objection, I didn't see much support but the "this is a spaceship game" bitter vets mostly kept to themselves except for the odd post. Back then there was no capital sunk into Incarna, we weren't just about to receive the product.Now skip ahead to about a year ago. Incarna is about a year from it's initial release we now know. three to four years of development time, resources and capital already in use and suddenly the player base unites against the concept?.....
I would imagine that before the june minutes were released most people like myself thought incarna would be a ô6 month of work and then releaseö deal of like everything else ccp had done. As soon as the players found out that it was going to take 18 months and the rest of eve was to be pretty much abandoned during that time there was the uproar.
No one is necessarily ôunited againstö incarna as a normal release. But itÆs obviously just sort of a graphical update to improve immersion for eve. ItÆs not going to add anything of substance to the actual game and abandoning eve for 18 months is a long time for that. It should be not have been a surprise this was not going to make players happy.
Now we have this csm letter talking about fleshing it out even more û ie longer than 18 months?? Sorry, that really sucks for those of us who like to fly space ships.
It has already been 3 years and fw occupancy still needs 3 or 4 iterations due to it being broken. Everyone acknowledges it is broken. Dominion is only half implemented and then will like need fine tuning. No one is really fighting like they used to before. ôthe Great warsö are in the past history. Now you hear more about bots than anything else happening in null sec.
And the devs are developing dresses and hair bows instead of new ships. Or worse they trying to figure out what sort of gameplay they can bring with incarna. Some players complain that they want to punch and shoot at each other. But really that is not how wars in this sci fi universe are fought. We have clones and huge space ships! You donÆt fight spaceships by kicking them or shooting them with pistols. I would just ask anyone who wants more than just the basics in incarna: How much more time do we need to wait? We have stuck it out for the 18 months. Players have already been waiting 3 years for a fix to faction war. Do we need to wait another 3 years?
Really, those who want more out of incarna, I just want to know how long the vast majority of resources will be tied up with incarna. In June 2010 I was told they would be tied up until December of 2011. I wasnÆt happy but I swallowed it. If they are going to do more ôfleshing outö of incarna before they get to any of the broken features I try to interact with in game, I just want to know how much longer this will take.
If csm is just complaining that incarna isnÆt good enough for them and they expect more in the same amount of time, well I think that is a bit unrealistic. I donÆt know allot about this but I do see that CCP has made these incarna characters look better than any other game I have seen. If it were easy to do this in a mmo, donÆt you think lots of games would look that good? That time was spent and they created something really top quality. No you canÆt punch a pirate or shoot someone. But that is not how the wars are won here.
LetÆs just let them get it out and get back to spaceships. Then as time passes if good ideas come up for it great. But letÆs not try to force creativity. The basics are great for incarna. Its looking really nice. ThatÆs fine for now. They can add stuff later.
-Cearain
Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906 |
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Market Wench
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Posted - 2011.03.10 20:22:00 -
[91]
There's nothing in this that wasn't obvious to most people the day the Vamps-in-stations tech demo was announced, but despite that I can still imagine CCP devs all sitting around a table tucking into their rotted shark and rolling their eyes at all those silly EVE players who lack their 'vision'.
Honestly I hope they just get the damn thing out as quickly as possible and with as little damage to the existing station interface as possible. That way they can forget about it as quickly as possible, just like every other expansion feature of recent years.
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Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Initiative Mercenaries
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Posted - 2011.03.11 01:22:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Cearain No one doubts that incarna will add players who would like a game where they walk around in a space station. But at least as of June of 2010 that was not our playerbase. Indeed itÆs pretty clear that the time and resources spent on incarna will cost eve at least some of its current players.
There are many players who continue to play with the hope that ccp will someday improve whatever it is they currently do. (For me its faction war.) The June summit minutes forced everyone to realize that whatever it is they would like done will almost certainly not get done for 18 months. That sucked to hear and more than a few quit. But some of us have decided to ride out the 18 months.
Now we get a csm letter that says ôflesh out incarnaö which can be interpreted as asking that they should do more with it than they already planned. Well à no. That is the complete opposite of the views of the players that I had read back in June.
I'm glad you're so in touch with The Playerbase, even more so than the players themselves are... For a moment there I was convinced me and many, many other players I've talked to really wanted Incarna to be a success.
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Raid'En
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Posted - 2011.03.11 01:51:00 -
[93]
as i saw almost only fanboys on the coments of the CQ devblogs, i began to though that i was alone thinking there were something wrong here... seems i was not.
there will be no use to CQ with the initial release, except the 1st minutes of discoveries of the superb graphics, and playing on the room with your shiny avatar finally moving.
but what's worry me mostly here, is that you seems to say that we will be forced to activate CQ after the patch... while i really don't want to.
i remember well when i anchored my 1st pos, on high sec, on abudan (do'nt remember the typo), a ice belt system 1 jump from rens allowing RD pos, that one of his interest was to gain time with no undocking while mining.
i don't stay on jita when i'm doing business, i'm almost always on a safe 1 jump from jita, cause there way too much lag on jita, and being docked on 4-4 is awful.
i don't even want to think about what would happen if i have to be on captain quarter of jita 4-4... would be a nightmare.
i'm very interested by what we can gain with incarna, but i don't want some shiny graphics, but no gameplay and only lost time when docking.
i'm really not on pvp, but honstly i would prefer having pvp as only activity on incarna than nothing. just give us an option to not unpod or be on a safe place if forced to, and i will happily go fight my comrades. cause hell i don't risk to lost my shiny ship here, and i suppose my vest and boots won't cost me that much to buy back after being killed.
if we have to go to QC when docking at least give us some minigames. it will only ask you a few hours of coding, and will change lots of things. the webbroswer on the big wall of our CQ, some cards games, and why not a oldie arcade game lying somewhere. it's always better than nothing. and moreover people won't have to alt-tab to do that if you add them ingame, while if done well can give a lot of immersion.
---------------- ** Wormhole Trading ** |
Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.03.11 05:09:00 -
[94]
Edited by: Cearain on 11/03/2011 05:12:49 Edited by: Cearain on 11/03/2011 05:11:36
Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab I'm glad you're so in touch with The Playerbase, even more so than the players themselves are... For a moment there I was convinced me and many, many other players I've talked to really wanted Incarna to be a success.
Of course everyone wants incarna to be a success. No one is hoping for failure.
If the outcry after the June csm minutes was not because ccp was taking so long and using so many resources on incarna and therefore ignoring the rest of eve, what was it about?
Or do you not think anything happened after the June minutes were published?
I really don't think what I said is controversial.
-Cearain
Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906 |
Jame Jarl Retief
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Posted - 2011.03.14 14:13:00 -
[95]
Originally by: William Loire I'm not exactly referring to the CSM letter so much as most of the responses in this thread. You know when Incarna was first announced five years ago, I remember there being very little objection, I didn't see much support but the "this is a spaceship game" bitter vets mostly kept to themselves except for the odd post. Back then there was no capital sunk into Incarna, we weren't just about to receive the product.Now skip ahead to about a year ago. Incarna is about a year from it's initial release we now know. three to four years of development time, resources and capital already in use and suddenly the player base unites against the concept?
That's because the concept keeps changing. Back when Incarna was announced (when it was called "Walking in Stations" and before it was called "Ambulation"...or was it the other way around?) we didn't have to worry about a lot of stuff. For example the NVidia APEX clothing and so on. Back when Incarna was announced 5 years ago, APEX didn't exist. There was also no mention of a new character creator, if I remember correctly. Etc., etc.
What started out as "you'll be able to walk around the place in a year or two" turned into 5 years of waiting, at the end of which all you get is a character creator and 6 months later captain's quarters - a single room, where you can walk around (hopefully).
If, 5 years ago, CCP said "5 years from now you'll get a new char creator and a tiny room to walk around in", do you really think people would have been supportive back then? I highly doubt it. Back then people were shown what was essentially a pipe dream that we've yet to see materialize.
Personally I'm hoping CCP can "flesh out" Incarna within this year. Not just QC, but stations, etc. If they manage it, fine and dandy. But if it's going to take any longer, with other features obviously broken or neglected? I'm not sure the payoff will be worth it. If there IS a payoff at all, there are no guarantees in this business.
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Bomberlocks
Minmatar CTRL-Q
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Posted - 2011.03.14 16:10:00 -
[96]
Originally by: mazzilliu
Originally by: Bomberlocks
Originally by: Weaselior
Originally by: Bring Stabity Incarna is a dumb waste of time in a game with overwhelming gameplay issues that need addressing over an expansion that is 90% cosmetic and won't fix any problems. If only mazzillu realized this then that is really depressing.
pretty sure what mazz realized is what an NDA is
Except that nothing in the open letter isn't public knowledge and therefore not under NDA, unless the NDA magically means saying nice things about CCP all the time.
this has nothing to do with an NDA
it has everything to do with alienation.
see, the csm has benefited greatly from ****storms aimed at ccp. the summer rage meant ccp gave the csm big cookies to help deal with the player concerns, and i think that the csm sort of hopes that this will happen again.
That's stupid and it won't, because this is completely different than the summer PR incident. first of all in the summer the rage was aimed at the higherups who have the power to make major changes. this letter is trying to start a ****storm directed at the grunts of ccp, and it's telling because it speaks about implementation details. it's not going to work because those grunts of ccp aren't directly beholden to the media, and they aren't required to answer to the CSM or include them in operational details. it's also entirely the wrong way to go about it since they will take it as an insult to their livelihood. incarna to you is a game, incarna to them is a way to feed themselves, and they will do anything to keep that from being jeopardized.
devs aren't required to give the csm so much as the time of day, they only do it if they want to. and they're only going to do it if they think it's safe. we've proven ourselves willing to start pr **** when we don't get our way so this isn't going to help their willingness to deal with us. Thankfully most of us are leaving office, especially the people who were behind this. trebor and helen were supportive of the letter though, something voters might want to keep in mind.
i signed my name to the private letter because i agree with its points, but i'm not going to associate myself with the public letter. even if we get our way it isn't worth the risk that we go back to being csm-in-the-dark that we were during the csm 1-4.
this is stupid; i cant believe i'm the only person who thinks this; screw you guys im goin home
Mazz, you're ignoring the part where CCP itself is divided on Incarna. You know very well that it's only the so-called team awesome (Noah Ward and co) that is ignoring the CSM. The rest of CCP seem to have had no problem with CSM and most seem to have behaved very professionally.
It is your opinion that cuddling up to Noah and co will somehow change things, but it certainly isn't anyone else's. For those who are interested, this is what an interview with that part of CCP looks like.
So no, I don't think it's supadum.
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mazzilliu
Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.03.17 19:56:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Bomberlocks
Mazz, you're ignoring the part where CCP itself is divided on Incarna. You know very well that it's only the so-called team awesome (Noah Ward and co) that is ignoring the CSM. The rest of CCP seem to have had no problem with CSM and most seem to have behaved very professionally.
It is your opinion that cuddling up to Noah and co will somehow change things, but it certainly isn't anyone else's. For those who are interested, this is what an interview with that part of CCP looks like.
So no, I don't think it's supadum.
trying to put words in my mouth about what my opinion is
that isnt my opinion, thats your imagination talking.
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Tehg Rhind
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Posted - 2011.03.17 22:34:00 -
[98]
I have generally been critical of the overly agressive tone that CSM5 took and don't believe that it accomplished as much as some people believe. However, I don't think this letter has that same problem. A better way of caging it might have been as a farewell deathbed request kind of thing, but in general not bad.
As for the whole Incarna thing, I dunno, I just don't see what the big deal is. Ok, if it's forced that's a problem, but I seriously doub it will be. Think about trading for instance. The current skill mechanics don't even require you to be in a station to trade. Same goes for research. The idea of having to switch to a different interface to quick fit is ridiculous and would cause so many problems. Now, maybe for some things like....I dunno.:..I actually can't think of a current mechanic that wouldn't be hurt by forcing it to be done through a different interface.
So, while I agree that they shouldn't force it, I don't see for a second how they could without completely breaking the game. And I'm not talking about the whiny PI/FW/Jump Bridges/ whatever are broken/breaking the game wahhhh. I mean it would irrevocably destroy the game.
Anyways, if all they want is to use it as a method of stress testing it they just need to add the ability to punch and/or teabag someone and then 90% of the player base will spend their docked time doing that.
As for complaints about it being a tool for another game and/or a waste of dev time etc, that's just shortsighted. WoD may end up being one of the best things to happen to EvE. If it is succesful then CCP, a relatively small private development firm, is looking at arguably doubling it's revenue stream. If you don't think that's a positive for EvE you are mistaken. Savings on shared overhead alone will free up so many resources. Dev team for forums? Only need one. Human resources? Only need one. Rotten shark cook? Only need one.
This is a GOOD thing. More money means more options for things like upgrading the servers.
Oh but we haven't been getting good updates recently!!
Seriously? Yeah, you have. Wormholes, awesome. Incursions, pretty neat. Tyrannis. Ok, tyrannis had problems, but it also involved arguably the largest number of changes to the economy and industry of EvE in any expansion, ever. The fact that the markets didn't completely explode is a testament to the quality. I still have no clue how they did that, the math behind it is absolutely PhD level staggering. I have problems controlling 3 variable systems and getting what I want.
But everyone has this short sighted "what have you done for me lately" attitude where they only see what affects them and if they don't like it they will jump on the whaaambulance and threaten to quit. It's the same thing gamers always do, just look at L4D2. The amazing thing is that gamers often lack so little self awareness that they cry wolf every week or two and don't realize that people stopped listening years ago. Which sucks when there really is a wolf.
Some companies bend over backwards for this nonsense. One of them is Blizzard. Ironically, their incessant pandering only results in the terrible mess of a product they now have. I for one am glad that CCP holds itself to higher standards.
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