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Orakkus
Minmatar m3 Corp Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2011.03.09 17:15:00 -
[1]
I haven't heard too much about low-sec these days. I keep hearing more about how 0.0 "xyz" or Incarna is going to kill Eve. I know alot of people have ideas about where low-sec should go.. but I'd like to know who are the most knowledgeable about low sec amoung those who discuss it?
I only do diplomancy because I haven't found you.. yet. |
adriaans
Amarr Ankaa. Nair Al-Zaurak
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Posted - 2011.03.09 17:39:00 -
[2]
Solo and small gang pvp'ers, NOT the gatecampy kind. Thats what low-sec should be about IMO. (And get rid of the damn supercaps from it). Also need far less chokepoints. More resources rather than a few hubs here and there spread out. tldr: more roaming, less camping, reduce blobs.
If you want a CSM runner, check Prometheus Exhental, he's all for solo/small gang pvp.
Fon Revedhort is also pretty kowledgeable.
sadly most of the really good people have left or stopped bothering because nothing has ever been done.
--signature-- F.CS boost: Here Vid: Link |
Orakkus
Minmatar m3 Corp Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2011.03.09 17:56:00 -
[3]
Well, my goal is to do something similiar to what I help put together for the Projectile/Tempest Minmatar issues back a few years ago, which was get a group of the respected, relevant, and knowledgeable people together, ones fully aware of all the issues surrounding low-sec. Then begin the slow process of brainstorming about four or five solid plans that the majority of people in low-sec would like to see in place. Then, once we get the community on board, we start pushing it hard to the CSMs as well as CCP. What happened with the Projectile/Tempest issue was that while we didn't necessarily get what we wanted, we did get CCP to finally pay attention and it did come up with a reasonable solution.
Part of it will be data-gathering so that we've got the ammunition against what CCP sometimes does with the "well, it feels balanced" arguments. This will take time and unless CSM6 is very serious about low-sec I think the objective should be to have this done for the CSM7 group.
I only do diplomancy because I haven't found you.. yet. |
The Djego
Minmatar Hellequin Inc.
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Posted - 2011.03.09 18:04:00 -
[4]
Mynxee did collect a huge amount of opinions and data during and before her run in CSM 5, might be your best input source available as we speak.
One of the bigger problems is also that there are very different points of view on low sec, be it from people in empire that fear it, people that live in low sec and complain about the mostly low rewards, people that only go there for pvp that wish for more targets and 0.0 dwellers that compare it to her relative save and rich environment of claimed space.
---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
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Orakkus
Minmatar m3 Corp Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2011.03.09 18:20:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Orakkus on 09/03/2011 18:21:03 Yeah, I have been on those forums and have checked them often recently. However, they haven't shown any activity for quite a while and with much of the CSM debate talking about more 0.0 and Incarna issues, rather than low-sec,I think its time to get people seriously thinking on low-sec again.
I only do diplomancy because I haven't found you.. yet. |
adriaans
Amarr Ankaa. Nair Al-Zaurak
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Posted - 2011.03.09 19:54:00 -
[6]
Assembly hall have 2-3 very large threads regarding low-sec also, you might have seen them (15+ pages ones) with lots and lots of ideas and discussions.
ccp has also said they want to do something and I think (dont quote me on this) that they had some plans but that it is relatively far behind in the que.
as for right now, i think trying to support promethus with solo/small gang pvp will have much larger effect than trying to bring in new gameplay elements until after incarna.
--signature-- F.CS boost: Here Vid: Link |
The Djego
Minmatar Hellequin Inc.
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Posted - 2011.03.09 19:57:00 -
[7]
Edited by: The Djego on 09/03/2011 20:01:07 I wouldn't say I'm a full time low sec dweller(even if I mostly just for hauling and a few L4 before I get bored again in empire this days).
Belt ratting: Mostly the frig and destroyer spawns should be converted to at least cruiser spawns, since they are worth like 30-50k only and the belts took some time to respawn better spawns. The faction item drop rate from faction spawns is also quite bad(at least in Heimatar and Molden(Angels), it is like 1% or something(not joking here, I got exactly 3 faction items since 2006 from low sec faction spawns, killing several hundred over the years). However this isn't the same for all NPCs, got around 300M(slave epsilon, TS med neut and TS med rep) worth of faction items from amarr low sec with a different char over the time of one week(2-3h ratting per day, before the BS where put into low sec, drop chance was like 30% done in a 0.2).
Annos: I like stuff like Hidden Den, it is like 5-7M in bounty and can be done in like 10 minutes in a pvp fitted nano pest, maybe 15-20 in a BC. One problem is the ton of lesser ones that only give you like 1.2-2.5M within the same timeframe(because you have to shoot tons of smaller stuff). Biggest problem is the respawning, when cleared sites stay there for hours, it doesn't need to be a instant respawn but something like 1-2h sounds reasonable if there are more of the bigger ones.
Plexing: Biggest issue in my point of view is the huge range escalations sometimes want you to go. Basically you start somewhere in a low trafic backwater system and will end up most likely in a high traffic area or 0.0. 0.0 is a bit bad since it require different tactics, you can move with a HAC really freely in the back end systems but most likely you will have to pass a choke point into 0.0 what requires a extra scout or a T3 and makes you think twice about your imps(what isn't real issue if you stay in low sec and know what you are doing). The rewards are ok, got around 20M, Cynable BPC and 36M overseers stuff out of a 5/10(also around 10M in loot from the drake pilot that scanned it down in the first place) last week.
L4: Depends if you have access to LP stores that are not avoidable in empire(what increases the LP value), run them relative save with some buddy's/alts around or in unprobable T3. You basically will take longer(since you will not use a pimp fit for them most likely) and you will have to take a break if somebody tries to probe you down and got a few ships on standby to gank you. If the LP are worth considerable more it is worth it actually, some of my corp members do most of her L4 in 0.2(I lack the standings for this as we speak).
Mining: Well it is possible in quiet systems, bigger problem is the logistic to move the mins to empire if you don't have somebody that will buy them in low sec. Basically you would need A to reduce the hauling problem or B make the ore in here worth more.
---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
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Von Kroll
Caldari Kroll's Legion
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Posted - 2011.03.09 20:25:00 -
[8]
Get rid of super caps and we're good...
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.03.09 21:38:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 09/03/2011 21:38:59
Originally by: Orakkus I haven't heard too much about low-sec these days. I keep hearing more about how 0.0 "xyz" or Incarna is going to kill Eve. I know alot of people have ideas about where low-sec should go.. but I'd like to know who are the most knowledgeable about low sec amoung those who discuss it?
Pirates and FW people tend to discuss it a lot. I don't think anyone else cares.
-Liang
Ed: Also, as a full time low sec dweller (well, for any character that actually undocks) I have to say that I'm mostly satisfied with it right now. Another resurgence of supercaps will **** in my cheerios though.
I'd really really really like to see some faction war boosts though. -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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The Djego
Minmatar Hellequin Inc.
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Posted - 2011.03.09 22:16:00 -
[10]
Edited by: The Djego on 09/03/2011 22:17:03
Originally by: Liang Nuren Ed: Also, as a full time low sec dweller (well, for any character that actually undocks) I have to say that I'm mostly satisfied with it right now.
Interesting, where do you generate the main ISK from?
I'm just curious since in my opinion, I can live with the risks of low sec quite well as we speak. Actually low sec is quite a bit more attractive when high sec war corps operate most of the time in your preferred high sec system and 1 or more got kill rights on you(what is quite a problem since they got a also logistics around). ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.03.09 22:34:00 -
[11]
Originally by: The Djego Interesting, where do you generate the main ISK from?
My high sec market alts. Like I said - for any character that actually undocks.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Deen Wispa
Gallente Roughneck Regulators
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Posted - 2011.03.09 22:55:00 -
[12]
If you're a PVE pilot then lowsec Amarr space ain't all that bad. It's vast and quite empty during my TZ so you can run plexes till your heart's content. Though some of the regions have little to no market though -----------------
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.03.09 23:50:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 09/03/2011 23:49:59
Originally by: Deen Wispa If you're a PVE pilot then lowsec Amarr space ain't all that bad. It's vast and quite empty during my TZ so you can run plexes till your heart's content. Though some of the regions have little to no market though
Most low sec in the US TZ is pretty quiet. Lots of small gangs running around, but its pretty easy to know when you're getting probed out to be shot at.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.03.10 00:15:00 -
[14]
Minmatar turrets are OP. Let's hope you make low sec OP too.
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Tsubutai
The Tuskers
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Posted - 2011.03.10 00:19:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Tsubutai on 10/03/2011 00:29:47
Originally by: Orakkus who are the most knowledgeable about low sec amoung those who discuss it?
Those who actually live there.
edit: to echo what Liang said, most of those who do live there find it to be more or less OK. I won't comment on FW* (never been involved) but the rest of lowsec does not need any comprehensive reworking. It has rough edges, and there are a number of things I'd like to see fixed or adjusted, but it's not "broken" in the way that an awful lot of people who don't live here and never have seem to think it is.
*other than to say that whoever it was that decided to create plexes that will admit a dram but not an enyo deserves a stern talking to
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.03.10 01:44:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 10/03/2011 01:44:02
Originally by: Tsubutai *other than to say that whoever it was that decided to create plexes that will admit a dram but not an enyo deserves a stern talking to
To be fair, I'd really like to see exploration/mission rewards normalized across 0.1 through 0.4 space. I don't know of any good reason why 0.4 space should be worth less given that the risk is often the same or greater (seeing as how its usually closer to high sec - where the ebil piwates live!)
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Centri Sixx
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Posted - 2011.03.10 02:57:00 -
[17]
Not much to say about it. You have FW, the pirates that survive off of FW (liang, tsu,) the missioners using unproabable/cloaked/plexing frigs to do fairly riskless PvE, and the few odd exceptions, mostly soloists. Any attempt to make lowsec a pirate haven has died: pirates now are just people who gank anyone.
Most people seem to want it to be a pirate haven, hence suggestions to lure carebears to be pirated over, or increase bounties to get white knights there. Or force them over.
I don't think it's solvable, really.
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Mutant Caldari
Caldari Percussive Diplomacy
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Posted - 2011.03.10 03:14:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Centri Sixx Any attempt to make lowsec a pirate haven has died: pirates now are just people who gank anyone.
Thats what pirates have been since I joined in '06 . Anyway, low sec is fine though it could use a few more attractions for solo pilots/small gangs. FW is a good ISK maker also though I wouldn't be opposed to boosting it Yeah I am a pirate. What are you gonna do about it? Killboard link is not allowed to be used in a signature.Applebabe
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Tsubutai
The Tuskers
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Posted - 2011.03.10 07:41:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 10/03/2011 01:44:02
Originally by: Tsubutai *other than to say that whoever it was that decided to create plexes that will admit a dram but not an enyo deserves a stern talking to
To be fair, I'd really like to see exploration/mission rewards normalized across 0.1 through 0.4 space. I don't know of any good reason why 0.4 space should be worth less given that the risk is often the same or greater (seeing as how its usually closer to high sec - where the ebil piwates live!)
-Liang
I wasn't aware that system sec status had any influence on exploration site distribution aside from in the broad sense that some sites don't occur in certain types of space; AFAIK, a 6/10 is not more likely to spawn in a 0.1 than in a 0.4. Definitely agreed on the mission rewards, though, even though I don't really do missions myself.
@ Centrii - while we certainly do have a lot of fights with FW guys, I'm not sure that many live off them per se; with T2 and meta 3/4 module prices being what they are, you have to be amazingly efficient about hoovering up all the loot from stuff you kill (not always easy when their backup is landing and you're in half structure...), salvaging T2 wrecks, and then schlepping it all up to Jita in order to turn a profit from killing people who are out to pvp. It certainly can be done, especially if you fly small and cheap, but it's incredibly tough.
Killing careless explorers and mission runners on the other hand... nom nom nom. It's doubly sweet when they're alts or members of other pirate corps. And FWIW, the lack of PvE'ers in lowsec really is overstated. You need to be quick and good with your probes to catch them, or to have a well set-up camp if you're after unprobeable T3 mission runners, but they're certainly out there for the plucking.
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Maelle LuzArdiden
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Posted - 2011.03.10 07:59:00 -
[20]
Besides being an obvious faceless fem alt, I've provided a steady supply of prey to the low sec dwellers since reactivating my account.
First T1 haulers stuffed with yummy loot, now T1 exploration vessels. Why?
Because of the rewards? Possibly, low sec exploration is a bit more lucrative. Because there are more sigs and less competition? Yes, hisec has only wormholes and junk compared to the most ubiquitous pirate systems. Because I might learn something? Yes, every night out there among the wolves make me less of a bear.
But the most important reason to go to lowsec is the risk itself. Without the possibility of losing your pwetty ship and pod, life in Eve is as boring as pimping your Windows desktop. Even dying in a pitiful ball of noobflames to a pack of pirates is 100x the rush of anything you can do in hisec. Evading the combat probes and camps and getting home in one piece with all radar loot is just pure sweet victory.
Just my 2 cents from the other side of the gate.
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adriaans
Amarr Ankaa. Nair Al-Zaurak
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Posted - 2011.03.10 09:59:00 -
[21]
Also, re-add pirate anomalies in FW zones back again. And fix faction spawn drop rates, over 300+ faction spawns and 5 or 6 actually dropped anything, all crap too.
Except missions and exploration there isn't that many options to make isk with when you are not part of FW.
and yes i'm a fulltime low-sec dweller and i'm sick of low-sec missions as my way of funding. primarily chasing ''gf's'' against other pvp'ers. --signature-- F.CS boost: Here Vid: Link |
Dr Sheepbringer
Gallente Halinallen veroparatiisi Inglorious Carebears
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Posted - 2011.03.10 11:03:00 -
[22]
Well everything works around minerals in eve. More or less anyways. At the moment we can pretty much "get" all of it in any given space. With this I mean either highsec, lowsec or null. Change that. Make so that people HAVE to get there. Same goes for missions. For example make the storylines always into lowsec. Heck, even null! Or combine them with FW. Forcing pve-players to get into pvp-areas would be fun...
I'm not saying that they have to bring their 1bil ships there, no. For example make the missions normal (not hard, not easy, but just normal) in lowsec etc. People could fly "affordable" ships and they HAVE TO go there.
Originally by: CCP Shadow Dr. Sheepbringer -- It's not that kind of horn.
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Von Kroll
Caldari Kroll's Legion
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Posted - 2011.03.10 11:57:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Dr Sheepbringer Well everything works around minerals in eve. More or less anyways. At the moment we can pretty much "get" all of it in any given space. With this I mean either highsec, lowsec or null. Change that. Make so that people HAVE to get there. Same goes for missions. For example make the storylines always into lowsec. Heck, even null! Or combine them with FW. Forcing pve-players to get into pvp-areas would be fun...
I'm not saying that they have to bring their 1bil ships there, no. For example make the missions normal (not hard, not easy, but just normal) in lowsec etc. People could fly "affordable" ships and they HAVE TO go there.
There are ores you can only find in low-sec/null-sec. And, its even possible for you to run medium-to-large scale mining ops in low-sec as long as you are smart about it. Whether or not that is feasible for a high-sec carebear corp? Probably not.
I'm not into forcing anyone that's not interested in PvP to PvP. That being said, those of us that live in low-sec know that the carebear perception of the threat of imminent destruction is overblown, and that low-sec merely provides predators the ability to go after the low-hanging fruit. Everyone else is, for the most part, a hard target. Personally I like it that way. The threat of loss is what makes this game truly unique and those of us that live in low-sec full time like that, and think it gives meaning to the game.
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X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.03.10 13:07:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Von Kroll
I'm not into forcing anyone that's not interested in PvP to PvP. That being said, those of us that live in low-sec know that the carebear perception of the threat of imminent destruction is overblown, and that low-sec merely provides predators the ability to go after the low-hanging fruit. Everyone else is, for the most part, a hard target. Personally I like it that way. The threat of loss is what makes this game truly unique and those of us that live in low-sec full time like that, and think it gives meaning to the game.
+1
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Jame Jarl Retief
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Posted - 2011.03.10 13:35:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Dr Sheepbringer Change that. Make so that people HAVE to get there. Same goes for missions. For example make the storylines always into lowsec. Heck, even null! Or combine them with FW. Forcing pve-players to get into pvp-areas would be fun...
Flying Labs tried to do just that in Pirates of the Burning Sea, a game very similar to EVE in many respects, just more simplified and easier for the beginner. And it failed in a spectacular fashion. Forcing carebears who don't want to PvP into a position where they have to flag themselves for PvP doesn't make them man up or adapt or group up or anything else. It does one thing, and one thing only - it makes them quit the game. Developers should really try to learn from mistakes the other developers have made in the past, instead of repeating them.
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Orakkus
Minmatar m3 Corp Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2011.03.10 19:42:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Orakkus on 10/03/2011 19:46:11
Originally by: X Gallentius Minmatar turrets are OP. Let's hope you make low sec OP too.
Hehe, too bad projectiles aren't OP :), and I certainly can't take any credit above just helping to organize people some. Others before me did the leg work, talked with the devs, etc. Me? All I did was just organized the rallies.
So that I understand things clearer, here's what I am reading:
From the low-sec combat players, the current mechanics are fine to them. Now this could be that you all adapted various strategies to work around sec status, and I'd like to hear some of them. As far as isk generation goes, I'm not seeing too many folks who appear to be low-sec industrialists, and there does seem to be a problem in that ways to generate isk is quite limited to one or two things. But, this could also be just the "fear" of low-sec inhibiting people from trying new things.
Its also been mentioned here, and elsewhere, that there are no real drivers to go into low-sec, with low-sec minerals and mission running really not all that much better than high-sec also, but the comments regarding FW seem to be a little hazy. Does FW provide a good source of income?
Another thing I would like to ask relates to the experiences I had in a low-sec corp. One thing was how frustrating it was to not really have "ownership" as it were of the space we were protecting and using, and this became more of a headache with the changes to sec status as well as the boosting of gate guns. Instead of deterring the pirates, all it did was make it more difficult to defend ourselves. That being said, are the feelings I had back those years ago still true, or has the sec status changes really helped in that regard?
I only do diplomancy because I haven't found you.. yet. |
Deen Wispa
Gallente Roughneck Regulators
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Posted - 2011.03.10 20:17:00 -
[27]
Is there a site that will list the difficulty level of the plexes? (ie; 5/10,7/10, etc...) -----------------
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Monger Man
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Posted - 2011.03.10 20:35:00 -
[28]
At this point I've lived in lowsec longer than highsec. Our plan was to spend as little time as possible in hisec and get out and see what the game was really about. There is nothing wrong with lowsec. We make more than enough isk to fund out play style. I feel safer in lowsec than highsec. Sure every so often I get popped by a pirate fleet with a heavy interdictor. But that's really rare.
I'm no where near the best pvp'er. But I am learning all the time. You wont get bears into lowsec. No matter what you dangle in front of them. At least that's my opinion from what I have experienced from the general hisec pop.
Industry in lowsec. At least when it comes to mining, not a chance. They would have to completely redo how mining works. Maybe make it a bit more like PI. Nobody in there right mind wants to sit for hours watching roids shrink. And in lowsec you have to be paying attention all the time.
PI works fine in lowsec. Sure you have to watch what you're doing, but only for a little bit while you pick stuff up.
Here is another theory I have about lowsec and pvp in general. Maybe more people would partake if they could understand what the heck was happening without spending hours studying the numbers. I love EVE pvp. So far its the most challenging of any game I've played. But the interface is just stupid. There should at least be displays of tracking and range. And what I mean is a continuously updating display of you're guns tracking and there range to the selected locked target. Perhaps in a color coded fashion. Ie red is bad green is good.
Anyways this has become more of a personal rant. But I really think that generally there is nothing wrong with lowsec. Its mostly the players.
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Mutant Caldari
Caldari Percussive Diplomacy
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Posted - 2011.03.10 20:47:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Orakkus Edited by: Orakkus on 10/03/2011 19:46:11
Originally by: X Gallentius Minmatar turrets are OP. Let's hope you make low sec OP too.
Hehe, too bad projectiles aren't OP :), and I certainly can't take any credit above just helping to organize people some. Others before me did the leg work, talked with the devs, etc. Me? All I did was just organized the rallies.
So that I understand things clearer, here's what I am reading:
From the low-sec combat players, the current mechanics are fine to them. Now this could be that you all adapted various strategies to work around sec status, and I'd like to hear some of them. As far as isk generation goes, I'm not seeing too many folks who appear to be low-sec industrialists, and there does seem to be a problem in that ways to generate isk is quite limited to one or two things. But, this could also be just the "fear" of low-sec inhibiting people from trying new things.
Its also been mentioned here, and elsewhere, that there are no real drivers to go into low-sec, with low-sec minerals and mission running really not all that much better than high-sec also, but the comments regarding FW seem to be a little hazy. Does FW provide a good source of income?
Another thing I would like to ask relates to the experiences I had in a low-sec corp. One thing was how frustrating it was to not really have "ownership" as it were of the space we were protecting and using, and this became more of a headache with the changes to sec status as well as the boosting of gate guns. Instead of deterring the pirates, all it did was make it more difficult to defend ourselves. That being said, are the feelings I had back those years ago still true, or has the sec status changes really helped in that regard?
If something should be fixed, it should be the aggro mechanics for RR'ing an outlaw that doesn't have GCC. Taking a sec hit, going GCC yourself and, if you are in FW, losing standings is a bit steep for repping someone who isn't even GCC. Yeah I am a pirate. What are you gonna do about it? Killboard link is not allowed to be used in a signature.Applebabe
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Von Kroll
Caldari Kroll's Legion
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Posted - 2011.03.10 21:01:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Orakkus
Its also been mentioned here, and elsewhere, that there are no real drivers to go into low-sec, with low-sec minerals and mission running really not all that much better than high-sec also, but the comments regarding FW seem to be a little hazy. Does FW provide a good source of income?
Another thing I would like to ask relates to the experiences I had in a low-sec corp. One thing was how frustrating it was to not really have "ownership" as it were of the space we were protecting and using, and this became more of a headache with the changes to sec status as well as the boosting of gate guns.
Two responses to two different issues.
1. The real driver for me personally in low-sec is FW. Free wardec with plenty of people to pew with Orrakus. If you remember our days in Providence before hell broke loose, its a lot like that. Plenty of pew of all sorts--small and large gangs, and solo if you look for it. From an industrial standpoint, you also get access to basically unlimited manufacturing slots, moons for POS towers and if you're a corp building combat caps, no better place to do it than in low-sec. No, you don't want to AFK mine here, but with Nocxium prices being what they are, and the availability of some of the higher-end ore available in mining sites, there is the potential for some fairly profitable, manageable-risk mining.
2. "Ownership" of your space is a mind-set. I can't speak entirely for all the Cals or Gals, but for the most part, we practice "ownership" over our battle space, or more specifically, Black Rise and Placid, plus the other smaller areas of other regions adjoining. I'm sure of the other Gals and Cals will correct me if I over-step here, but we don't tolerate overt pirate activity and for the most part cooperate to force anyone that operates out there to respect our space and our interests to blow each other up. No, we can't throw people out, or deny them access to stations, but we can surely make life miserable for just about anyone we want to due to the fact that we consider the space our "home" and live there almost 100% of the time. We want to be there--don't want to be somewhere else.
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