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Vengeance or Retribution?

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Rakia Anzari	Posted - 2011.03.25 00:41:00 - [1] Ok, so I'm a fairly low SP Amarr character at the moment, got T2 small guns and tank, and more or less ready to get into AFs. I haven't really focused on much else than Frigates, but the related skills for them so far seem to be rather good. I'm aware that the Retribution's major stalling point is it's single medslot, but it also has a utility high and more lows than the vengeance. Which one is a better idea to get into, despite the fact that I currently entirely lack the skills for rockets? Should I just ignore the Vengeance for now and get a retribution until I can use the Rocket launcher II?
Templar Dane Amarrian Retribution	Posted - 2011.03.25 01:54:00 - [2] If you're dead set on training either of them, go for retribution. That is, if you're training -just- amarr. While the vengeance is totally superior for pvp, seeing that you seem to be a newer player, the time spent on rockets and support skills for them means too much to you right now. Though, if you can use tech 2 autocannons or even blasters, go vengeance. Hell, I suppose you could throw some gatling pulse lasers on it... That is, unless you're talking about pve and then the ret is fine.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2011.03.25 13:08:00 - [3] Sorry to have to tell you this, but the Retribution is an utter joke. Can't tackle, no EWAR capability, and DPS that most of the other AFs can match or beat. Vengeance on the other hand is awesome. _________________________________ ROCKET STATUS: FIX IN PROGRESS...
VanNostrum	Posted - 2011.03.25 13:31:00 - [4] While the Vengeance is better for PVP as Retribution has no mid slots, the Retribution is the best AF for PVE. You can do all L3 missions and even some L4 missions in it. Obviously it won't do the missions as fast as a BS, but you can optimize its skills faster than a BS..
Dark Pangolin Caldari Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse	Posted - 2011.03.25 13:57:00 - [5] If all you have is laser skills the Retribution is a fine DPS support AF, but you need friends to do the tackling (Warp Disrupting/Scrambling/Webbing). The retribution will have the Vengeance beat on optimal range with scorch and DPS with laz0rz but you need to fit a prop mod in that mid slot...sooo in pvp it means you can never hold anything down, which means your target can warp away from you any time he wants...unless your friends have him pinned down. Overall, for PVP the Vengeance will be more useful in more situations, and can field an impressive tank with respectable DPS (not to mention the ability to choose your damage type based on the target you are fighting). But if you fly with friends the retribution can be a fine DPS AF to start you off while you move on to bigger and better ships. Please don't listen too much to the general message board comments of "IF ITS NOT "THIS SHIP & THIS FIT" ITS NOT WORTH THE ISK!"...in general "This Ship & This Fit" changes with the winds of EVE...having said that...Vengeance>Retribution in most cases. EVE is extremely situational and really blossoms when you fly with a team as most ships are specialized, which is why people prefer the Vengeance. It offers the most options in the most situations, while the Retribution, though a fine ship at what it does, has a narrower focus.
Adian Grey	Posted - 2011.03.25 16:09:00 - [6] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Sorry to have to tell you this, but the Retribution is an utter joke. Can't tackle, no EWAR capability, and DPS that most of the other AFs can match or beat. Vengeance on the other hand is awesome. Except for the fact that the Ret can apply it's optimal range DPS at 6x the range of other AF's. Did you know a Beam Ret has an optimal of 43km+ ?
Rubberdukzilla	Posted - 2011.03.25 16:25:00 - [7] Originally by: Adian Grey Except for the fact that the Ret can apply it's optimal range DPS at 6x the range of other AF's. Did you know a Beam Ret has an optimal of 43km+ ? my harpy would disagree there ;)
Lady Skank Ban Evasion inc	Posted - 2011.03.25 16:50:00 - [8] Originally by: Rubberdukzilla Originally by: Adian Grey Except for the fact that the Ret can apply it's optimal range DPS at 6x the range of other AF's. Did you know a Beam Ret has an optimal of 43km+ ? my harpy would disagree there ;) A hawk with SMLs could pull a similar trick to.
Lukriss Caldari Notorious Legion Tactical Narcotics Team	Posted - 2011.03.25 17:05:00 - [9] Originally by: Lady Skank Originally by: Rubberdukzilla Originally by: Adian Grey Except for the fact that the Ret can apply it's optimal range DPS at 6x the range of other AF's. Did you know a Beam Ret has an optimal of 43km+ ? my harpy would disagree there ;) A hawk with SMLs could pull a similar trick to. At that range who wouldn't prefer guns and armoy tank? Originally by: Redloc I want to gank hulks in high sec! I have a dedicated miner account so I have the funds to throw away.
Kurfin	Posted - 2011.03.25 18:11:00 - [10] The Vengeance also makes a nice heavy tackler.
Amaroq Dricaldari Amarr Vengeance Industrial Militia	Posted - 2011.03.25 18:13:00 - [11] Edited by: Amaroq Dricaldari on 25/03/2011 18:14:28 If you all think the Retribution sucks... Then you'll want to take that back wehn you see Solaris (my Assualt Frigate). It is a Retirubtion, with a Stable Capacitor, it moves farely fast, and it can cloak. And it has moderately better DPS than my Punisher. Having trouble debating? Just go with the side that pays you more for your work.
Herrring Amarr National Quality Breaker	Posted - 2011.03.25 19:58:00 - [12] having used both ships for a bit in my earlier days, I would say both ships are fine. As someone said earlier, retributions have pretty heavy dps with range, so if there are other tacklers it is not that bad of a choice. Vengeances are also not bad either as it can have a cruiser sized buffer tank with an ok frig dps. But after i trained minmatar frigs I stopped flying them. the speed thing is so addictive.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2011.03.25 20:29:00 - [13] It is very much like the difference between Crusader and Malediction, one is a God with tackle and the other carries a bag'o'pain. In an AF swarm the Retibution will consistently take top spot in damage on just about all kills. Doesn't tackle so people tend to ignore it until its too late which works well even when solo. Vengeance with its capacitor from heaven can survive under insane neuting when sporting a nos, makes it the ideal heavy tackler. Stupidly good against frigates in general thanks to damage selection and cruiser size tank. Team these puppies up and watch the fireworks, nothing gets away without a very bloody nose and you need to deploy cruisers+ to get rid of them .. best tag-team in Eve.
Lady Skank Ban Evasion inc	Posted - 2011.03.25 21:02:00 - [14] Originally by: Lukriss Originally by: Lady Skank Originally by: Rubberdukzilla Originally by: Adian Grey Except for the fact that the Ret can apply it's optimal range DPS at 6x the range of other AF's. Did you know a Beam Ret has an optimal of 43km+ ? my harpy would disagree there ;) A hawk with SMLs could pull a similar trick to. At that range who wouldn't prefer guns and armoy tank? Not that any sniper frig is exactly the best idea but a SML Hawk probably does the most damage and can kite better than the Harpy with its ****ty capacitor and the slow assed Retribution.
Ruah Piskonit Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2011.03.25 21:12:00 - [15] Do not let any fool tell you that either ship is sub-par. Espcially the retribution has a bad rap with players who tend to think that Minmatar afs are the endall-be all. They are flat out wrong. First off, the retribution has not tackle, but has fantastic dps at very good ranges. While it will take you a bit of time to train the proper skills to pull the most out of it (fitting, tanking, gunnery, and other refinements) - the tradeoff is always going to be that your job is to kill things and leave the tackling to other ships. The vengence is a fun ship and a great heavy tackler much like the sac is - but - it requires that your opponnt wants to fight. That said, if you have a gang, especially a mixed frig gang, then the retribution and vengence are both very fine additions. But if you plan on persuing some solo fantasy (eve is not optimized for solo gameplay) then Amarr is simply not your race at the frig level (arbi hulls are all arguably some of the best solo pvp ships, but its a cruiser). Ultimatly, you should really be very cairful about who you listin to when it comes to AFs (most people don't fly them except as mission ships and then nver really use them in pvp - so they are talking out of their ass') so you should seek out people who know frigs and also know that every ship is a trade off with a few exceptions. Good Luck
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2011.03.25 21:12:00 - [16] Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 25/03/2011 21:16:25 Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 25/03/2011 21:14:15 Quote: Except for the fact that the Ret can apply it's optimal range DPS at 6x the range of other AF's. Did you know a Beam Ret has an optimal of 43km+ ? Right, because chipping paintwork at 43km is totally a role. Quote: Then you'll want to take that back wehn you see Solaris (my Assualt Frigate). It is a Retirubtion, with a Stable Capacitor, it moves farely fast, and it can cloak. And it has moderately better DPS than my Punisher. Sounds pretty fail to me. Also lolcloak. Shame you didn't post the fit, but I can guess enough of it from your description to get a good laugh Quote: fantastic dps at very good ranges Not really, no. At close range, you get dps on par or beneath other dps-oriented AFs At "long" range, you've got sub-par dps and no tackle/ewar/support of any kind. Any use a Retri when other AFs do the same job but better? _________________________________ ROCKET STATUS: FIX IN PROGRESS...
baltec1	Posted - 2011.03.25 21:57:00 - [17] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Any use a Retri when other AFs do the same job but better? I have yet to find a single frigate that can dish out the damage and tank as well as the retribution.
Dark Pangolin Caldari Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse	Posted - 2011.03.25 22:04:00 - [18] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Any use a Retri when other AFs do the same job but better? OK normally I don't respond to post like this but this chafes my bottom... You use it because you don't have the skills to fly every ship in the game at LEVEL 5! I'm in no way saying the Retribution is the end all AF (in-fact I think many AFs are generally superior in pvp)...but please, PLEASE show me the other AFs that can put out 180sh DPS with a 19km optimal...I believe the Harpy is the only one that comes close... -P P.S. When you post your wolf/jag fit please remember that falloff is not optimal
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2011.03.25 22:30:00 - [19] Why exactly is your thoroughly mediocre dps suddenly excused by the fact it's at 19km? The problem with the Retribution is that if your ship is going to be a one trick pony then it needs to be really good at that trick. As it stands: the Retribution is meant to be a pure damage dealer, making up for its lack of tackle by bringing more damage to the field - except it doesn't. Quote: You use it because you don't have the skills to fly every ship in the game at LEVEL 5! It takes under 2 weeks to train another races frigates and guns. To someone with the skills and income to be flying AFs, that's nothing. Quote: PLEASE show me the other AFs that can put out 180sh DPS with a 19km optimal [Ishkur, lolRetri] Damage Control II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Adaptive Nano Plating II Catalyzed Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters Warp Disruptor II Small Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 25 125mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Thorium Charge S 125mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Thorium Charge S 125mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Thorium Charge S [empty high slot] Small Hybrid Burst Aerator I Small Hybrid Collision Accelerator I Hobgoblin II x5 Hornet EC-300 x5 Oh look, 191 dps, as well as a warp disruptor, cap booster and optional flight of ec-300 drones. _________________________________ ROCKET STATUS: FIX IN PROGRESS...
baltec1	Posted - 2011.03.25 22:38:00 - [20] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington [Ishkur, lolRetri] Damage Control II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Adaptive Nano Plating II Catalyzed Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters Warp Disruptor II Small Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 25 125mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Thorium Charge S 125mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Thorium Charge S 125mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Thorium Charge S [empty high slot] Small Hybrid Burst Aerator I Small Hybrid Collision Accelerator I Hobgoblin II x5 Hornet EC-300 x5 Oh look, 191 dps, as well as a warp disruptor, cap booster and optional flight of ec-300 drones. Pop the drones at range, out tank the DPS and lol.
oldmanst4r Minmatar oldmanst4r's Corporation	Posted - 2011.03.25 23:34:00 - [21] Edited by: oldmanst4r on 25/03/2011 23:34:41 My vengeance has 19k EHP and full tackle inc mwd. It also turns like a brick but w/e you can't have everything. Originally by: CCP Shadow snip Castration successful. Shadow.
Templar Dane Amarrian Retribution	Posted - 2011.03.26 00:11:00 - [22] Originally by: Adian Grey Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Sorry to have to tell you this, but the Retribution is an utter joke. Can't tackle, no EWAR capability, and DPS that most of the other AFs can match or beat. Vengeance on the other hand is awesome. Except for the fact that the Ret can apply it's optimal range DPS at 6x the range of other AF's. Did you know a Beam Ret has an optimal of 43km+ ? Did you know a coercer can do that job...and better? Fitting beams to a ret sucks up all it's grid, leaving it with next to no buffer. A coercer can fit beams and a 400mm plate, or the same plate and have 24km pulse. And, the coercer is still lol.
Templar Dane Amarrian Retribution	Posted - 2011.03.26 00:15:00 - [23] Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Any use a Retri when other AFs do the same job but better? I have yet to find a single frigate that can dish out the damage and tank as well as the retribution. Wolf. Ishkur. Jag isn't far behind. And besides, for the same price you can always fit a few nano ruptures and do more damage, having nearly the same mobility, AND have a point.
ARES 003	Posted - 2011.03.26 00:26:00 - [24] its about on par with the other af in terms of dps and tank, but the lack of midslots makes it very subpar.
Zhim'Fufu	Posted - 2011.03.26 02:22:00 - [25] Originally by: Rakia Anzari Vengeance or Retribution? Oh thats an easy one. Jaguar. Originally by: Response to bitter carebear tears in local [19:44:46] CCP Incognito > sorry i can't talk about game mechanics. you need to use your brains and figure it out.
Herrring Amarr National Quality Breaker	Posted - 2011.03.26 02:33:00 - [26] Originally by: Templar Dane Edited by: Templar Dane on 26/03/2011 00:19:27 Edited by: Templar Dane on 26/03/2011 00:18:59 Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Any use a Retri when other AFs do the same job but better? I have yet to find a single frigate that can dish out the damage and tank as well as the retribution. Wolf. Ishkur. Jag isn't far behind. And besides, for the same price you can always fit a few nano ruptures and do more damage, having nearly the same mobility, AND have a point. Originally by: baltec1 Pop the drones at range, out tank the DPS and lol. Good luck doing that with lasers and lol. Tracking distruptor on the retribution and lol. Neut the retribution and lol. Jam the retribution and lol. Damp the retribution and lol. Or warp away because the retribution doesn't have a point and lol. If you e war a ship its not gonna be anygood regardless of ship type lol. And the ret is alright in a gang since it can pull 180dps at 20 km and wolf jag ishkurs cant do that at 20km. While im not saying rets are the best AFs out there, its far from useless if someone tackles for you. However, b/c of the lack of mid slots, i would only fly it in a wolf pack. IMO from my experience in flying rets a bit, its pretty good if your flying in a frig only gang but not worth it in any other.
Zhim'Fufu	Posted - 2011.03.26 02:38:00 - [27] Originally by: Herrring And the ret is alright in a gang since it can pull 180dps at 20 km and wolf jag ishkurs cant do that at 20km. Opposing jag notices something tickling its shields and then zooms over to apply a scram and web whilst applying some rather nasty close range thermal damage. Whoops. Originally by: Response to bitter carebear tears in local [19:44:46] CCP Incognito > sorry i can't talk about game mechanics. you need to use your brains and figure it out.
ARES 003	Posted - 2011.03.26 02:43:00 - [28] Originally by: Zhim'Fufu implies that a jaguar will beat a retribution in a close range brawl nope. retribution outbrawls quite a few ships.
Zhim'Fufu	Posted - 2011.03.26 02:45:00 - [29] Originally by: ARES 003 Originally by: Zhim'Fufu implies that a jaguar will beat a retribution in a close range brawl nope. retribution outbrawls quite a few ships. Originally by: Response to bitter carebear tears in local [19:44:46] CCP Incognito > sorry i can't talk about game mechanics. you need to use your brains and figure it out.
Herrring Amarr National Quality Breaker	Posted - 2011.03.26 02:54:00 - [30] this post kinda made me want to get my combat toon back into FW so i can actually fly in frig gangs.. All i fly now for combat is T2 cruisers and BCs... i kinda miss the speed of frigs.

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