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Dr Larry Goldstein
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Posted - 2011.04.12 16:18:00 -
[1]
Jump bridges inequitably transfer sov into the hands of people who organize 800 person fleets who then casually jump into whatever system they would like and destroy POSes and the like.
This mechanic is entirely unfair as it provides an advantage for those who set up JBs and have a network of JBs. Not all 20 man corporations can do this.
JBs need a nerf or this game will simply become blocs of power.
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Irani Firecam
Gallente Lords 0f Justice Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2011.04.12 16:19:00 -
[2]
Jump bridge connecting to hostile territory is best jump bridge.
My Wallpaper |
Obsidian Hawk
RONA Legion RONA Directorate
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Posted - 2011.04.12 16:20:00 -
[3]
dear sir, shut up.
Signed
me.
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Dr Larry Goldstein
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Posted - 2011.04.12 16:21:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Obsidian Hawk dear sir, shut up.
Signed
me.
Wow, good point. Maybe you should jump bridge 100 more people into this thread so you can justify whatever swill you want to add to this discussion.
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Rixiu
The Inuits
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Posted - 2011.04.12 16:23:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Dr Larry Goldstein
JBs need a nerf or this game will simply become blocs of power.
Will become? I thought it already was. 2 (3 actually though I guess, but 2 of them are BFFs so I count them as one) blocks fighting each other.
Also posting to support.
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Ingvar Angst
Amarr Omni Industrial Coalition Talocan United
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Posted - 2011.04.12 16:28:00 -
[6]
Limit jump bridges to a mass of 10x the mass of the ship creating it, followed by an extended down time.
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Alice Katsuko
Terra Incognita Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2011.04.12 16:28:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Dr Larry Goldstein Jump bridges inequitably transfer sov into the hands of people who organize 800 person fleets who then casually jump into whatever system they would like and destroy POSes and the like.
This mechanic is entirely unfair as it provides an advantage for those who set up JBs and have a network of JBs. Not all 20 man corporations can do this.
JBs need a nerf or this game will simply become blocs of power.
I, too, would like to see these mythical jump bridges that would allow my '800-person fleet' to jump into 'whatever system I like.' Oh, wait, those things are called 'titans,' which are much more expensive than a jump bridge network but don't require an alliance to hold sov or even have more than a handful of wealthy members.
Op clearly doesn't live in nullsec, or lives in the middle of the NC where every system has a jump bridge funded through the sale of moon goo.
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Bhattran
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Posted - 2011.04.12 16:30:00 -
[8]
I'm surprised by the lack of awe and respect being thrown in the OP's direction, hello people he's a Doctor, a Doctor!
Papa don't preach, I've been losing sleep But I made up my mind, I'm keeping my baby, oh I'm gonna keep my baby, mmm... |
Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2011.04.12 16:34:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Dr Larry Goldstein Jump bridges inequitably transfer sov into the hands of people who organize 800 person fleets who then casually jump into whatever system they would like and destroy POSes and the like.
This mechanic is entirely unfair as it provides an advantage for those who set up JBs and have a network of JBs. Not all 20 man corporations can do this.
It isn't necessarily the bridges themselves that is the problem, but the bridge network's reliability. Now if there was some way to interrupt the operation, and it didn't require a POS assault fleet. How come Sansha never drop that 'jump bridge jammer' module?
There is also the old favorite - Delayed Local. Would help in bridge camping and ambushing in general. ...
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Kronos Hopeslayer
Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2011.04.12 16:51:00 -
[10]
OP Trollin Much?
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Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
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Posted - 2011.04.12 17:03:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Dr Larry Goldstein Jump bridges inequitably transfer sov into the hands of people who organize 800 person fleets who then casually jump into whatever system they would like and destroy POSes and the like.
This mechanic is entirely unfair as it provides an advantage for those who set up JBs and have a network of JBs. Not all 20 man corporations can do this.
JBs need a nerf or this game will simply become blocs of power.
I tend to agree that JB's weren't exactly CCP's brightest idea but what do you propose they do against it - now it's a well established mechanic?
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Medarr
Amarr Vengance Inc. Wayfarer Stellar Initiative
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Posted - 2011.04.12 17:42:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Dr Larry Goldstein Jump bridges inequitably transfer sov into the hands of people who organize 800 person fleets who then casually jump into whatever system they would like and destroy POSes and the like.
This mechanic is entirely unfair as it provides an advantage for those who set up JBs and have a network of JBs. Not all 20 man corporations can do this.
JBs need a nerf or this game will simply become blocs of power.
and what is a 20men corp doing in 0.0... gtfo allready troll
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2011.04.12 17:44:00 -
[13]
jump bridges will hopefully get hit by the nerf bat next to anomaly nerf.
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Dorian Wylde
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Posted - 2011.04.12 18:06:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Jennifer Starling
Originally by: Dr Larry Goldstein Jump bridges inequitably transfer sov into the hands of people who organize 800 person fleets who then casually jump into whatever system they would like and destroy POSes and the like.
This mechanic is entirely unfair as it provides an advantage for those who set up JBs and have a network of JBs. Not all 20 man corporations can do this.
JBs need a nerf or this game will simply become blocs of power.
I tend to agree that JB's weren't exactly CCP's brightest idea but what do you propose they do against it - now it's a well established mechanic?
Change it like they've already changed dozens of well established mechanics. Hope that more people will understand that MMO's are always evolving, and that nothing is going to stay the same forever. Examples include: the old sov system, the introduction of capital ships, tech 2 and 3 technology, planets as something other than background, wormhole space, incursions... I could go on for quite a while.
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Irani Firecam
Gallente Lords 0f Justice Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2011.04.12 18:10:00 -
[15]
Don't forget to include high sec level 4 missions on that list.
My Wallpaper |
Chicken Blood
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Posted - 2011.04.12 18:19:00 -
[16]
Finally, I will have a good reason to return playing this game! Tired of all the 0.0 carebears using jump bridges to move around their space safely. It made camping in enemy territory too damn boring (almost no targets)
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Xavier Isaacson
Minmatar Surface Detail
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Posted - 2011.04.12 18:29:00 -
[17]
Dear Troll OP:
Dear Sir/Madam,
Thank you for your new thread which contains approximately zero value. We would like to take the time to direct you to our newest product being released right this moment. They are called "Doors". These "Doors" are located everywhere and can be used to "GTFO". These doors do come with a general health and safety warning which reads as follows "please do not let this door hit you on the way out", we would advise you to read and understand this warning before making use of the doors.
Many thanks
Trolls 'R Us Ltd.
Originally by: Verone BBC Trust are a sack of arses.
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Dirk Lance
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Posted - 2011.04.12 18:37:00 -
[18]
U mad bro?
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Landrae
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.04.12 19:24:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Obsidian Hawk dear sir, shut up.
Signed
me.
^ I second this motion. ------------------------------------------------- If pro is the opposite of con, then isn't congress the opposite of progress? |
Abdiel Kavash
Caldari Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2011.04.12 19:29:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Razin
Originally by: Dr Larry Goldstein Jump bridges inequitably transfer sov into the hands of people who organize 800 person fleets who then casually jump into whatever system they would like and destroy POSes and the like.
This mechanic is entirely unfair as it provides an advantage for those who set up JBs and have a network of JBs. Not all 20 man corporations can do this.
It isn't necessarily the bridges themselves that is the problem, but the bridge network's reliability. Now if there was some way to interrupt the operation, and it didn't require a POS assault fleet. How come Sansha never drop that 'jump bridge jammer' module?
What if it was possible to, for example, shoot at the bridge for a while, and make it go offline until the defenders can repair it?
Oh, wait. ---
Originally by: Sporked EVE IS DYING RUN TO THE HILLS! WE MIGHT HAVE TO ENGAGE WITH OTHER PEOPLE IN THIS MMO! THEY MIGHT SHOOT AT US WHILE WE ARE BUSY HOLDING HANDS AND FROLICKING! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
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Akirei Scytale
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Posted - 2011.04.12 19:37:00 -
[21]
ITT: OP believes that groups of 20 people should be able to confront groups of 2,000 people on even footing.
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.04.12 19:39:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 12/04/2011 19:40:01
Originally by: Jennifer Starling
I tend to agree that JB's weren't exactly CCP's brightest idea but what do you propose they do against it - now it's a well established mechanic?
Well, well established mechanics get changed, updated, and removed all the time.
-Liang
Originally by: Akirei Scytale ITT: OP believes that groups of 20 people should be able to confront groups of 2,000 people on even footing.
I think it's more that groups of 2000 players 20 jumps over shouldn't be able to willy nilly teleport into a 20v20 and back again. ;-)
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Akirei Scytale
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Posted - 2011.04.12 19:41:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Akirei Scytale on 12/04/2011 19:41:58
Originally by: Liang Nuren
I think it's more that groups of 2000 players 20 jumps over shouldn't be able to willy nilly teleport into a 20v20 and back again. ;-) -Liang
And I believe groups of 20 people should get squashed like bugs when they pick fights with groups of 2000. Because you'd have to be a moron to even consider it.
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.04.12 19:42:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Akirei Scytale
And I believe groups of 20 people should get squashed like bugs when they pick fights with groups of 2000. Because you'd have to be a moron to even consider it.
Realistically, a 20v20 should be over before 2000 players can cross 20 jumps to interfere... thus they're really only picking a fight with 20 guys.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Akirei Scytale
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Posted - 2011.04.12 19:44:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Akirei Scytale on 12/04/2011 19:45:32
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Akirei Scytale
And I believe groups of 20 people should get squashed like bugs when they pick fights with groups of 2000. Because you'd have to be a moron to even consider it.
Realistically, a 20v20 should be over before 2000 players can cross 20 jumps to interfere... thus they're really only picking a fight with 20 guys.
-Liang
I'm talking large scale. If you decide to "invade" an empire with a few buddies, don't yell "OMFG NERF INFRASTRUCTURE AND NUMBERS" when the empire decides to defend itself and utilize the defenses it sank large chunks of cash into.
I swear, some people in EVE expect every enemy to just roll over and die without a fight. This isn't lowsec we're talking about, this is where the big fish swim.
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Irani Firecam
Gallente Lords 0f Justice Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2011.04.12 19:48:00 -
[26]
Well if you can be like Rambo and take on thousands of ships with your one mission ship, then of course it should also apply when taking on a few hundred player ships.
My Wallpaper |
stargazer biatch
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Posted - 2011.04.12 19:54:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Akirei Scytale Edited by: Akirei Scytale on 12/04/2011 19:45:32
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Akirei Scytale
And I believe groups of 20 people should get squashed like bugs when they pick fights with groups of 2000. Because you'd have to be a moron to even consider it.
Realistically, a 20v20 should be over before 2000 players can cross 20 jumps to interfere... thus they're really only picking a fight with 20 guys.
-Liang
I'm talking large scale. If you decide to "invade" an empire with a few buddies, don't yell "OMFG NERF INFRASTRUCTURE AND NUMBERS" when the empire decides to defend itself and utilize the defenses it sank large chunks of cash into.
I swear, some people in EVE expect every enemy to just roll over and die without a fight. This isn't lowsec we're talking about, this is where the big fish swim.
You said it m8! I mean, what's the point of sinking all that ISK developing 0.0 if you can't make that space safe?
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.04.12 20:09:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Akirei Scytale
I'm talking large scale. If you decide to "invade" an empire with a few buddies, don't yell "OMFG NERF INFRASTRUCTURE AND NUMBERS" when the empire decides to defend itself and utilize the defenses it sank large chunks of cash into.
I swear, some people in EVE expect every enemy to just roll over and die without a fight. This isn't lowsec we're talking about, this is where the big fish swim.
Nobody is saying that at all. What's being said is that it's far too fast to get reinforcements to wherever the SMALL fight is happening. Is a 20 man gang going to actually **** up the infrastructure of a 2000 man alliance in the 20 minutes it takes for them to get there? NO. Will they get a good fight out of it? YES. Well, they would if JBs didn't let you bridge half the alliance to the fight in 15 seconds.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Akirei Scytale
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Posted - 2011.04.12 20:11:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Akirei Scytale on 12/04/2011 20:15:28
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Akirei Scytale
I'm talking large scale. If you decide to "invade" an empire with a few buddies, don't yell "OMFG NERF INFRASTRUCTURE AND NUMBERS" when the empire decides to defend itself and utilize the defenses it sank large chunks of cash into.
I swear, some people in EVE expect every enemy to just roll over and die without a fight. This isn't lowsec we're talking about, this is where the big fish swim.
Nobody is saying that at all. What's being said is that it's far too fast to get reinforcements to wherever the SMALL fight is happening. Is a 20 man gang going to actually **** up the infrastructure of a 2000 man alliance in the 20 minutes it takes for them to get there? NO. Will they get a good fight out of it? YES. Well, they would if JBs didn't let you bridge half the alliance to the fight in 15 seconds.
-Liang
who the hell goes into a large alliance's space looking for good fights? NO ONE.
These are the reasons people do it: - easy kills on ratters / missioners - sheer stupidity, leading to abrupt and anticlimactic death
The only thing that walks into an alliance's space looking for a good fight is an enemy alliance's fleet.
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.04.12 20:16:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Akirei Scytale
who the hell goes into a large alliance's space looking for good fights? NO ONE.
These are the reasons people do it: - easy kills on ratters / missioners - sheer stupidity, leading to abrupt and anticlimactic death
The only thing that walks into an alliance's space looking for a good fight is an enemy alliance's fleet.
I'm sorry, what is your point? We are discussing ways to make it such that it isn't terminally stupid to go look for a good fight in someone's space.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Akirei Scytale
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Posted - 2011.04.12 20:18:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
I'm sorry, what is your point? We are discussing ways to make it such that it isn't terminally stupid to go look for a good fight in someone's space.
-Liang
My point is, that is how it should be. Honestly, who believes that a group of 20 buddies should be able to take on a huge group of organized, coordinated allies controlling an entire region or most of it?
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Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
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Posted - 2011.04.12 20:19:00 -
[32]
Originally by: stargazer biatch You said it m8! I mean, what's the point of sinking all that ISK developing 0.0 if you can't make that space safe?
"sinking all that ISK developing 0.0" - as if it doesn't pay itself back with anomalies, complexes, rats, nulsec mining, moon goo ..
It's just very unrealistic that you can jump a whole fleet in from so many systems away. All the usual "border defense" tactics are turned largely irrelevant. Especially with artificial choke points as jump gates already in place it effectively makes nulsec a very static thing.
It's very un-space like. You can't put walls around space but that's basically where it comes down to.
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Irani Firecam
Gallente Lords 0f Justice Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2011.04.12 20:20:00 -
[33]
Well there no point in investing the isk to develop a system if there is no returns on it.
My Wallpaper |
Akirei Scytale
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Posted - 2011.04.12 20:23:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Jennifer Starling
Originally by: stargazer biatch You said it m8! I mean, what's the point of sinking all that ISK developing 0.0 if you can't make that space safe?
"sinking all that ISK developing 0.0" - as if it doesn't pay itself back with anomalies, complexes, rats, nulsec mining, moon goo ..
It's just very unrealistic that you can jump a whole fleet in from so many systems away. All the usual "border defense" tactics are turned largely irrelevant. Especially with artificial choke points as jump gates already in place it effectively makes nulsec a very static thing.
It's very un-space like. You can't put walls around space but that's basically where it comes down to.
these aren't walls. they're roads. and they aren't nearly as powerful as titan bridges - they're just convenient in that you don't have to drag someone out of bed to use them, and they're more available but require heavy maintenance.
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Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2011.04.12 20:23:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Abdiel Kavash
Originally by: Razin
Originally by: Dr Larry Goldstein Jump bridges inequitably transfer sov into the hands of people who organize 800 person fleets who then casually jump into whatever system they would like and destroy POSes and the like.
This mechanic is entirely unfair as it provides an advantage for those who set up JBs and have a network of JBs. Not all 20 man corporations can do this.
It isn't necessarily the bridges themselves that is the problem, but the bridge network's reliability. Now if there was some way to interrupt the operation, and it didn't require a POS assault fleet. How come Sansha never drop that 'jump bridge jammer' module?
What if it was possible to, for example, shoot at the bridge for a while, and make it go offline until the defenders can repair it?
Oh, wait.
Bolded the important part for you. With this kind of attention deficit it's strange that you'd suggest shooting "at the bridge for a while". Do you find it therapeutic? Have you tried shooting station services? You should love that! ...
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.04.12 20:27:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Akirei Scytale
Originally by: Liang Nuren
I'm sorry, what is your point? We are discussing ways to make it such that it isn't terminally stupid to go look for a good fight in someone's space.
-Liang
My point is, that is how it should be. Honestly, who believes that a group of 20 buddies should be able to take on a huge group of organized, coordinated allies controlling an entire region or most of it?
The 20 buddies should not be able to take on the huge group - I agree... but they should be able to take on the small part that's separated from the whole - but massive JB networks mean that you can't do that because the whole is never far away.
You talk like the 20 guys are going to cause any real damage in the 20-30 minutes it can take you to manually cross the space... but that's just bull**** and you know it.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Akirei Scytale
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Posted - 2011.04.12 20:28:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
The 20 buddies should not be able to take on the huge group - I agree... but they should be able to take on the small part that's separated from the whole - but massive JB networks mean that you can't do that because the whole is never far away.
You talk like the 20 guys are going to cause any real damage in the 20-30 minutes it can take you to manually cross the space... but that's just bull**** and you know it.
-Liang
POSes are not the only way to hurt an empire, or at least **** one off. If you have even half decent intel and scouting, you could do a WHOLE lot in twenty minutes.
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.04.12 20:32:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Akirei Scytale
POSes are not the only way to hurt an empire, or at least **** one off. If you have even half decent intel and scouting, you could do a WHOLE lot in twenty minutes.
You mean they might be able to kill your roaming gang or something? Maybe demoralize your super well prepared huge group of people by scoring an insignificant skirmish victory? Steal a carrier that's been negligently left laying around? Kill a ratter or two?
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Akirei Scytale
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Posted - 2011.04.12 20:33:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Ed: And no, they are not "roads". Driving from Seattle to Miami is dramatically different than magically appearing a few seconds from now in Dallas, then a minute later in Miami.
Highways. They function exactly like long-range stargates, basically. (as if there weren't already super-long-range NPC stargates in the game already).
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.04.12 20:34:00 -
[40]
A highway does not allow me to instantly teleport my troops to Miami from Seattle. A highway can be used by both hostiles and friendlies. There are many holes in your analogy.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Akirei Scytale
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Posted - 2011.04.12 20:39:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Liang Nuren A highway does not allow me to instantly teleport my troops to Miami from Seattle. A highway can be used by both hostiles and friendlies. There are many holes in your analogy.
-Liang
you realize stargates teleport people too, right?
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.04.12 20:40:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 12/04/2011 20:40:08 Stargates act as doors to a room - quite literally. Jump bridges allow you to teleport to your uncle's house in Panama.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Yuki Kulotsuki
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Posted - 2011.04.12 20:44:00 -
[43]
JBs act identical to stargates with the exception that they can be created and destroyed and have limited access. They are equally limited by "real distance". -- Did you know there's an alliance who's name you're not allowed to say, or website you're not allowed to link? |
Akirei Scytale
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Posted - 2011.04.12 20:44:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Akirei Scytale on 12/04/2011 20:44:01
Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 12/04/2011 20:40:08 Stargates act as doors to a room - quite literally. Jump bridges allow you to teleport to your uncle's house in Panama.
-Liang
have you ever used a jump bridge or planned out a jump bridge network? because you seem to be pretty f'ing clueless. its basically a stargate system overlayed on the NPC stargate system. nothing more, nothing less. except it costs ISK to set up and on a daily basis through fuel. you get shortcuts and more direct routes - not "LOL IM IN PANAMA NOW!"
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Sverige Pahis
Caldari Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.12 20:45:00 -
[45]
Ugh high level of idiocy in this thread. Can you stop signing your stupid posts we got it the first 3000 times you're called Liang ok super.
-Sverige
Your KB shows nothing but empire - high sec and low - kills. What makes you qualified to argue about a mechanic you know nothing about?
-Sverige
Or do you have other alts amirite
-Sverige
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Guillame Herschel
Gallente NME1
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Posted - 2011.04.12 20:47:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Dr Larry Goldstein This mechanic ... provides an advantage for those who set up JBs and have a network of JBs.
Indeed. It's such a convenient side-effect that I am having a hard time believing that it was not designed so.
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.04.12 20:50:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 12/04/2011 20:51:11
Originally by: Yuki Kulotsuki JBs act identical to stargates with the exception that they can be created and destroyed and have limited access. They are equally limited by "real distance".
Quote: have you ever used a jump bridge or planned out a jump bridge network? because you seem to be pretty f'ing clueless. its basically a stargate system overlayed on the NPC stargate system. nothing more, nothing less. except it costs ISK to set up and on a daily basis through fuel. you get shortcuts and more direct routes - not "LOL IM IN PANAMA NOW!"
This is not *really* true. Stargates are static and will never change - they create a topography for the game map. Jump bridges may *mechanic wise* be similar, but they're very akin to teleportation with respect to the game topography.
-Liang
Ed: Turns out this adequately addresses your post as well. -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Akirei Scytale
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Posted - 2011.04.12 20:54:00 -
[48]
stop signing your posts, stop talking about something you don't understand, and try moving into a 0.0 empire. those jump bridges make life bearable if you control any decent amount of space.
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Ladie Scarlet
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.12 20:54:00 -
[49]
The OP is a well-known troll. It's safe to ignore anything he says.
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Irani Firecam
Gallente Lords 0f Justice Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2011.04.12 20:54:00 -
[50]
What you're saying is that stargates are massively game breaking because they allow ships to travel instantaneously from one system to another, and ships should use their warp drives to cross the interstellar space to another system.
My Wallpaper |
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.04.12 20:56:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Akirei Scytale stop signing your posts
Do you *REALLY* think that 5 years in I'm going to suddenly cave in?
Quote: stop talking about something you don't understand
I do understand it - see references to map topology and how they abuse it.
Quote: and try moving into a 0.0 empire
Been there, done that, got the teeshirt.
Quote: those jump bridges make life bearable if you control any decent amount of space.
Then maybe you shouldn't control such large swaths of space? This has been a stated goal of CCP for a while now.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Akirei Scytale
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Posted - 2011.04.12 20:58:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Then maybe you shouldn't control such large swaths of space? This has been a stated goal of CCP for a while now. -Liang
i take it your experience in 0.0 was pretty limited.
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.04.12 20:59:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Irani Firecam What you're saying is that stargates are massively game breaking because they allow ships to travel instantaneously from one system to another, and ships should use their warp drives to cross the interstellar space to another system.
No, let me try to make this simple enough for you to understand: Stargates make map of the game world Jump bridges make people teleport across the map of the game world made by stargate Jump bridges are invisible
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Yuki Kulotsuki
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Posted - 2011.04.12 21:01:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Liang Nuren Jump bridges may *mechanic wise* be similar, but they're very akin to teleportation with respect to the game topography.
-Liang
It's just adding edges to nodes in a graph. All those edges obey certain rules like in-verse distance and session timers. I don't see much problem with drawing more lines on a rather sparse graph. Particularly when it's pretty easy to find an accurate map of it. -- Did you know there's an alliance who's name you're not allowed to say, or website you're not allowed to link? |
Irani Firecam
Gallente Lords 0f Justice Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2011.04.12 21:01:00 -
[55]
No, let me try to make this simple enough for you to understand:
Stargates Solar systems make map of the game world
Jump bridges Stargates make people teleport across the map of the game world made by stargate solar systems
Jump bridges Stargates are invisible
My Wallpaper |
Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.04.12 21:02:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Akirei Scytale
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Then maybe you shouldn't control such large swaths of space? This has been a stated goal of CCP for a while now. -Liang
i take it your experience in 0.0 was pretty limited.
I'm not sure what CCP's stated intention has to do with how much time I spent in 0.0? My last serious foray into 0.0 was about 6 months ago, and I spent 3.5 years there in my first run. If you're curious.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.04.12 21:05:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 12/04/2011 21:05:12
Originally by: Irani Firecam No, let me try to make this simple enough for you to understand:
Stargates Solar systems make map of the game world
Solar systems make maps of solar systems. They are very much discrete points on the game map.
Quote:
Jump bridges Stargates make people teleport across the map of the game world made by stargate solar systems
This is not really true because solar systems are not connected.
Quote:
Jump bridges Stargates are invisible
This is just crazy talk - solar systems are well defined and published.
-Liang
Ed: Formatting -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Akirei Scytale
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Posted - 2011.04.12 21:07:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Irani Firecam What you're saying is that stargates are massively game breaking because they allow ships to travel instantaneously from one system to another, and ships should use their warp drives to cross the interstellar space to another system.
No, let me try to make this simple enough for you to understand: Stargates make map of the game world Jump bridges make people teleport across the map of the game world made by stargate Jump bridges are invisible
-Liang
the NPC stargate system is poorly laid out. The game world map is a three dimensional space with points representing every system, not a flowchart. If you had EVER used a jump drive in your entire EVE career, you'd understand this. It is how the map was laid out, its how it is balanced. DISTANCE is the primary factor, not jumps. player-controlled transportation, such as jump drives, cyno beacons, jump bridges, etc, are all means for players to lay out more efficient transportation routes.
you can keep pretending jump bridges break game balance because you're "teleporting", but you do the same thing at every gate. you seem to think CCP intended for the NPC system to be the game's transportation layout, but that has not been true for as long as jump drives have existed. your reluctance to accept that people can build expensive stargates if they have the capital tells me you have only fought against JB-using alliances, and never for one - so PLEASE stop talking about something you *do not understand*.
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Akirei Scytale
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Posted - 2011.04.12 21:09:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Quote:
Jump bridges Stargates make people teleport across the map of the game world made by stargate solar systems
This is not really true because solar systems are not connected.
Unflatten your map and look at EVE as it really is, please.
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Leeroy McJenkins
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.12 21:18:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
I'm not sure what CCP's stated intention -Liang
CCP's doesn't know what their intentions are, they patch the game thinking they will solve problem A but then it creates problem B so they make another patch to solve problem B and end up with problem C and suddenly problem A does look like much of a problem at all.
JB's are convenient, that is all, the large empires will still survive without em. But they were put there for convenience so that more people could participate in the large battles that CCP makes trailers about, now suddenly there is too much participation and people want them gone.
Originally by: Leeroy McJenkins There is no real pvp in EVE, there is only winning or losing and then feeling :smug: about winning or sore about losing. There is nothing wrong with this arrangement.
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Ladie Scarlet
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.12 21:34:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Liang Nuren A highway does not allow me to instantly teleport my troops to Miami from Seattle. A highway can be used by both hostiles and friendlies. There are many holes in your analogy.
-Liang
Look at you not knowing what you're talking about.
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Tosser Galore
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Posted - 2011.04.12 21:40:00 -
[62]
Remove local and remove high sec. Empire is gay and need to die.
Please re-size your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist |
Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.04.12 21:43:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Akirei Scytale
the NPC stargate system is poorly laid out. The game world map is a three dimensional space with points representing every system, not a flowchart. If you had EVER used a jump drive in your entire EVE career, you'd understand this. It is how the map was laid out, its how it is balanced. DISTANCE is the primary factor, not jumps. player-controlled transportation, such as jump drives, cyno beacons, jump bridges, etc, are all means for players to lay out more efficient transportation routes.
...
you can keep pretending jump bridges break game balance because you're "teleporting", but you do the same thing at every gate.
Look, I'm well aware of how jump drives, jump bridges, and jump portals work. I've traveled with all of them repeatedly and for years. That doesn't change the facts: - Travel across the game map is overwhelmingly determined by stargates - Solar systems are points on the game map, and each solar system has its own discrete map from the overall game map. - Travel routes which bypass the NPC stargate map effectively "bridge" or "teleport" people across it.
Quote:
you seem to think CCP intended for the NPC system to be the game's transportation layout, but that has not been true for as long as jump drives have existed
This is ultimately the core of the problem. Jump drives, jump bridges, and jump portals are forms of instantaneous force projection that effectively means you cannot separate a part from the whole. This is what I was trying to get at earlier: No, the 20 buddies aren't going to be able to take on the 2000 man alliance and win, but with proper scouting they should be able to take on 20 people from the 20 man alliance and win.
But instantaneous force projection across many jumps frequently prevents that from being a reality.
Quote: your reluctance to accept that people can build expensive stargates if they have the capital tells me you have only fought against JB-using alliances, and never for one - so PLEASE stop talking about something you *do not understand*.
I have fought both for and against JB using alliances and the tactics used were essentially the same. We used them to trap roaming gangs and get to the fight faster than would otherwise be possible ... if it was even possible at all.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Akirei Scytale
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Posted - 2011.04.12 21:46:00 -
[64]
yep, you just don't really understand. for a long time player, that's pretty damn embarrassing. no point continuing.
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.04.12 21:51:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Akirei Scytale
yep, you just don't really understand. for a long time player, that's pretty damn embarrassing. no point continuing. you are only capable of looking at this from one angle.
The problem is that I completely understand where you're coming from... and also why it needs to change.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Ladie Scarlet
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.12 22:52:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Akirei Scytale
yep, you just don't really understand. for a long time player, that's pretty damn embarrassing. no point continuing. you are only capable of looking at this from one angle.
The problem is that I completely understand where you're coming from... and also why it needs to change.
-Liang
Based on everything you've written about jump bridges and travel mechanics in eve along with the fact that you sign your posts says otherwise.
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Kuar Z'thain
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.12 23:01:00 -
[67]
I can't be bothered to read all the stupidity presented here so I just hope that someone has already mentioned that it is possible to interdict travel via jump bridges with a small gang.
This feels just the same as the rhetoric prior to the speed nerfs. Just because you people are lazy and unimaginative, you want to nerf something because you can't think around the problem.
Hey, you want to know how long it takes a POS to lock a bomber? And how long it takes a group of bombers to kill a Battleship?
You just might be surprised.
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Hieronimus Rex
Minmatar Infinitus Sapientia New Eden Research.
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Posted - 2011.04.12 23:26:00 -
[68]
Not all 20 man corporations can set up 800 person fleets. Therefore 800 person fleets are unfair and should be removed.
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.04.12 23:32:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Hieronimus Rex Not all 20 man corporations can set up 800 person fleets. Therefore 800 person fleets are unfair and should be removed.
This is not at all any argument that has been presented here. ;-)
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Lilith Savage
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Posted - 2011.04.13 00:06:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Hieronimus Rex Not all 20 man corporations can set up 800 person fleets. Therefore 800 person fleets are unfair and should be removed.
Don't see the logic there. Eve fair? Not likely!
What's wrong with an 800 person fleet other than lag?
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Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
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Posted - 2011.04.13 00:19:00 -
[71]
I don't support the complete removal of JB's, however I insist JB's be moved to planets (or away from POS's).
JB's allow local defenders to outmaneuver, circumvent, and flank/trap enemy fleets. That's an awesome mechanic that should stay.
At the same time, JB's allow the safe movement of vast distances in near-total safety. That's not a good mechanic!
Force projection is a problem in eve.... It has become very easy to fight a multi-front war across many regions with the same fleet. Unfortunately, JB's are only one of several mechanics that make force projection easy within this game. The only true way to limit force projection is to limit jump ranges. However, how do you appropriately limit jump ranges that allows capitals to be useful in your home region, but not-so-instantly-accessible 3 regions away. I personally think the only realistic solution to force projection, without over-nerfing JB's, JP's, and all capitals is to remap the distance between systems.
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Akirei Scytale
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Posted - 2011.04.13 00:24:00 -
[72]
removing JBs will do one thing and one thing only: royally **** off every single titan pilot in all of EVE when they start getting phone calls at 4AM because a bridge is needed for an op.
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Yuki Kulotsuki
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Posted - 2011.04.13 01:13:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Gizznitt Malikite I don't support the complete removal of JB's, however I insist JB's be moved to planets (or away from POS's).
The problem with this is how you handle putting up, taking down and hostile take downs if you stop them from being pos modules. -- Did you know there's an alliance who's name you're not allowed to say, or website you're not allowed to link? |
Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.04.13 01:18:00 -
[74]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 13/04/2011 01:23:42
Originally by: Akirei Scytale removing JBs will do one thing and one thing only: royally **** off every single titan pilot in all of EVE when they start getting phone calls at 4AM because a bridge is needed for an op.
0.0 is ****ting out supercaps so fast I doubt that it'd be a problem long - if indeed it would become one in the first place.
-Liang
Ed: Hell, I'll cover the late late US TZ if you give me a Ragnarok. :p -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Major Templar
Caldari Steel Daggers Gentlemen's Agreement
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Posted - 2011.04.13 01:24:00 -
[75]
People want to remove JBs because they want to be able to camp a gate and get kills. They want to make 0.0 more into Low Sec because they don't know how to fight larger groups. People talk about large "800" man fleets being able to jump through a JB. Well one, I don't know of any jumpbridge that can take that many people without having someone there actually fueling it while people are jumping. And two, I don't know of any alliance that actually moves that many people through a JB and not just using a Titan Bridge instead. We are talking about Coalitions, Power Blocks, and some of the most powerful alliances in Eve. Even if you take JBs out of 0.0 your still going to hit alliances that will blot out the sun and blob a gate to utterly screw up your day. Also, little secret for you, most of the support/defense fleets that go for a 20 man gang actually use real stargates more then JBs. This is because both costs of moving said fleets for something small and also because they can sometimes move faster in the right direction. People have to remember, yes the JBs allow you to jump across great distances but they aren't always placed in the right areas to get where you need to go to jump in front of a roaming gang.
Oh and camping a JB with a Stealth Bomber waiting for unguarded and clueless Industrial is freaking awesome for kills. Please don't tread on my JB camping days, I will be ****ed just for taking my funny kills away.
Major Templar Steel Daggers Gentlemen's Agreement |
Irani Firecam
Gallente Lords 0f Justice Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2011.04.13 01:27:00 -
[76]
Better to make a thread for the removal of stargates instead, so that all non jump drive equipped ships will have to travel in real-time to another system, that will add extra delay to any 800 man blobs.
My Wallpaper |
Akirei Scytale
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Posted - 2011.04.13 01:28:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Major Templar People want to remove JBs because they want to be able to camp a gate and get kills. They want to make 0.0 more into Low Sec because they don't know how to fight larger groups. People talk about large "800" man fleets being able to jump through a JB. Well one, I don't know of any jumpbridge that can take that many people without having someone there actually fueling it while people are jumping. And two, I don't know of any alliance that actually moves that many people through a JB and not just using a Titan Bridge instead. We are talking about Coalitions, Power Blocks, and some of the most powerful alliances in Eve. Even if you take JBs out of 0.0 your still going to hit alliances that will blot out the sun and blob a gate to utterly screw up your day. Also, little secret for you, most of the support/defense fleets that go for a 20 man gang actually use real stargates more then JBs. This is because both costs of moving said fleets for something small and also because they can sometimes move faster in the right direction. People have to remember, yes the JBs allow you to jump across great distances but they aren't always placed in the right areas to get where you need to go to jump in front of a roaming gang.
Oh and camping a JB with a Stealth Bomber waiting for unguarded and clueless Industrial is freaking awesome for kills. Please don't tread on my JB camping days, I will be ****ed just for taking my funny kills away.
mostly spot on. but I have seen plenty of ops bring a few industrials along purely for fuel. and industrial is not a rare sight on the field - cap fleets like to bring em too.
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Yuki Kulotsuki
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Posted - 2011.04.13 01:29:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Irani Firecam Better to make a thread for the removal of stargates instead
-- Did you know there's an alliance who's name you're not allowed to say, or website you're not allowed to link? |
Akirei Scytale
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Posted - 2011.04.13 01:58:00 -
[79]
if your intel is so hilariously bad that you don't know where your enemy's JBs are, and as a result can't plot a course that takes advantage of their positions, then you pretty much deserve to get pincered.
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Ozmodan
Minmatar Massively Mob
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Posted - 2011.04.13 02:35:00 -
[80]
Funny how so many people have to jump in with negative comments and yet don't even make an effort to support any kind of an argument.
To those that did supply arguments, most were pretty one sided. Let's face it in a game that is supposed to be a harsh environment, jump bridges are easy street. Obviously it just does not fit the way it currently works with the rest of the game design. Seems obvious it is something that needs changed.
Really cracks me up when posters complain about lag in large fleet fights, yet when a thread like this pops up, they try to make fun of smaller entities trying to make it in 0.0. The major problem in this game is that large size has no disadvantages, hence the need to have larger and larger fleet battles.
Learners permit still current |
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Irani Firecam
Gallente Lords 0f Justice Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2011.04.13 02:39:00 -
[81]
In a game that is supposed to be a harsh environment, high sec mission running is an easy street. Obviously it just does not fit the way it currently works with the rest of the game design. Seems obvious it is something that needs changed.
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Yuki Kulotsuki
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Posted - 2011.04.13 02:42:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Ozmodan The major problem in this game is that large size has no disadvantages, hence the need to have larger and larger fleet battles.
You've clearly never been on comms for 1000+ fleets if you think there's no disadvantages. Or had a JB run out of fuel with half the fleet already through. What's that? JBs actually causing problems?!?! -- Did you know there's an alliance who's name you're not allowed to say, or website you're not allowed to link? |
Akirei Scytale
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Posted - 2011.04.13 02:53:00 -
[83]
Edited by: Akirei Scytale on 13/04/2011 02:55:24
Originally by: Ozmodan
Really cracks me up when posters complain about lag in large fleet fights, yet when a thread like this pops up, they try to make fun of smaller entities trying to make it in 0.0. The major problem in this game is that large size has no disadvantages, hence the need to have larger and larger fleet battles.
I don't complain about lag in large fleet fights. And as is true with real life, large size has no disadvantages. As long as an army remains coordinated and its logistics are solid, its size is utterly meaningless in any way except maximum projected force and durability.
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Hakaru Ishiwara
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2011.04.13 03:00:00 -
[84]
Oh my, I am so glad that somebody brought up this topic again.
If not jump bridge, then titan bridge? If not titan bridge, then fleets traveling conventionally gate-to-gate?
The fight is gonna happen any which way the the OP wants to spin things.
And trolling 1/10. JB nerfing has been beaten into a pulp and run through the pulping machine twice.
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Akirei Scytale
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Posted - 2011.04.13 03:09:00 -
[85]
the anti JB argument, in a nutshell:
"oh no, this alliance of several thousand players who worked together to control this region and dumped billions of ISK into infrastructure so they could have some form of advantage in their home space has an advantage over me and my couple of buddies in their home space. nerf this please, its unfair!"
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Major Templar
Caldari Steel Daggers Gentlemen's Agreement
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Posted - 2011.04.13 03:30:00 -
[86]
All I'm seeing here are people saying, "please remove JBs because it's not fair that the alliance that owns the space can defend it correctly!"
Look, alliances spend billions of ISK a month to support their networks. Look at Dominion expansion. They took care of the JBs for no real cost thing. You now have to pay ISK costs to run a system with the required Ihub upgrades. If we sit here and say, well lets remove JBs then your going to have to give all the ISK spent on every Ihub upgrade back. And lets be honest, it's not like the OP is making it out to be by allowing alliances to deploy thousands of troops into enemy territory, that's what the Titan bridge does. It's only making defending home territory possible in a universe where Titans are becoming more common. How would it be fair in the end if say you get your way, JBs are taken out. Then the next day a large alliance uses their massive Titan fleet to deploy forces into a system and you have no way to counter that? Then your going to want to remove that. Then once your do that, well by that time you've lost over half the Eve player base. I guess then you would really get all the space you want, no one will be playing anymore and almost no one in 0.0 as at that point it's only worth being in High Sec.
So people, lets just get off this subject. It's been done to death and we really need to get onto a subject worth talking about. Lets say we push CCP to fix a lot of the crap that they keep breaking instead of wining about removing stuff that we all know in the end they will screw up and make things even worse.
Fix the things that are broken first, not trying to break other things.
Major Templar Steel Daggers Gentlemen's Agreement |
El'Niaga
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2011.04.13 04:09:00 -
[87]
Jump Bridges do not break the game. They provide a nice benefit to those that invest in them. It helps reduce wasted time that is otherwise boring.
What breaks the game is the lack of any anti blob weapons. There are no minefields, no bubbles that act like webs, almost non existent aoe weapons (bombs come to mind that's it), etc.
Lack of environmental effects also limits tactical and strategic choices....I mean you see these in missions, but why don't we have static areas like this? It would open up so many more choices.
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Headerman
Minmatar Metanoia. Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.04.13 04:33:00 -
[88]
Now hang on just a damn minute here!
This is 0.0 space you are talking about here, so the REAL question is....
... Would that be 2000 Drakes or 2000 Alphamaels?
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Zey Nadar
Gallente Unknown Soldiers Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2011.04.13 06:37:00 -
[89]
Edited by: Zey Nadar on 13/04/2011 06:39:19
Originally by: El'Niaga
What breaks the game is the lack of any anti blob weapons. There are no minefields, no bubbles that act like webs, almost non existent aoe weapons (bombs come to mind that's it), etc.
And look how people whined when there WERE (original doomsday). Wah Wah! We cant do anything this big meanie alliance doomsdays once every 5 minutes, we cant do anything! Wah!
I wish people could see the big picture. The problem isnt the JBs, the problem is that your enemy outnumbers you. Deal with it. JBs are a nice thing that benefits the alliance who can keep them running, and its a big investment of time (strategic indexes) and money (all the SCUs and poses and durp), while NOT being overpowered. You can take into account enemys JB network, estimate enemy fleet movements, and trap them accordingly. You can even cloakycamp enemy JBs for some occasional juicy cargo.
Its not about the tools, its about how you use them.
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Alice Katsuko
Terra Incognita Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2011.04.13 06:58:00 -
[90]
Edited by: Alice Katsuko on 13/04/2011 07:01:36 Let's run some numbers:
- A TCU for simple sovereignty costs 180M ISK per month
- The Advanced Logistics Network upgrade for jump bridges costs 300M ISK per month
- A properly outfitted JB POS costs approximately 250M ISK per month in fuel. There are two of these in virtually all JB systems.
Thus, it costs approximately 880M ISK just to maintain the infrastructure for a jump bridge in a single system. We're ignoring the cost of the TCU, IHub, and POS modules, or the time necessary to haul them, or the time and resources necessary to defend them. I suppose that might be cheap, if you have access to a hundred Technetium moons.
Now let's look at what it costs to operate the jump bridge itself:
- A typical jump bridge can store a maximum of 25,000 units of LO. That's 10M ISK of LO if we assume LO only costs 400ISK/unit.
- That's enough LO to move 100 Abaddons the maximum bridgeable distance of 5LY (an Abaddon masses about 100,000,000kg and requires 250LO to bridge 5LY). So much for moving 800 ships in one go, unless it's a fleet of 800 cruiser-sized hulls.
- In other words, it would cost 20M ISK to move a fleet of 200 battleships a single jump. Take that fleet through 5 jump bridges, and you're looking at 100M ISK in fuel costs. Now do that twice a week. That's 800M ISK in fuel costs per month which is, as they say, real money.
- Alternatively, consider a 50-man home defense fleet which bounces between jump bridges while trying to outmaneuver a good opponent. That might burn even more LO than your 200-strong battleship fleet.
- Even without such sillyness as regularly moving hundreds of battleships, assume that your usual jump bridge must be refueled at least twice a week. That's still 80M ISK per month per jump bridge, or 160M ISK per jump bridge system, not counting the time of whoever has to do the rounds.
Thus, the monthly cost of maintaining a system in a jump bridge network is somewhere around a billion ISK, and most likely a few dozen million more depending on various other factors.
So in sum, operating jump bridges is not cheap by most standards. Maintaining the infrastructure for those bridges is most certainly not cheap. Most alliances don't maintain more than the absolute minimum number of jump bridges necessary for defensive purposes and local logistics, and the cost of those jump bridges is borne in large part by regular players. Of course there's one coalition which can afford to park a jump bridge in almost every system. But that's due to CCP's failed attempt at creating incentives for folk to attack the Northern Coalition. When you have access to scores of moons which each bring in upwards of seven billion ISK in revenue per month, I suppose you can afford to splurge.
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uNtOldPAIN
Minmatar Drunken Wookies BricK sQuAD.
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Posted - 2011.04.13 07:16:00 -
[91]
I would love to see the amount of *****ing if the JB-less fleet(say 500 people) has to go through high sec to get somewhere. The *****ing that will come from the empire.
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Akirei Scytale
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Posted - 2011.04.13 07:21:00 -
[92]
Originally by: uNtOldPAIN I would love to see the amount of *****ing if the JB-less fleet(say 500 people) has to go through high sec to get somewhere. The *****ing that will come from the empire.
If you had to cross the galaxy for whatever reason, it would probably involve JBing to the optimal location, then rendezvousing with a titan fleet and titan bridging the rest of the way with hilariously cautious scouting. Of course that is a ******ed idea, and no one would ever do it.
Usually when someone on the other side of empire has mean words to say to an alliance, they just kind of chuckle and shrug.
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Fellblade
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Posted - 2011.04.13 07:51:00 -
[93]
Are people deliberately misunderstanding each other here?
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2011.04.13 08:43:00 -
[94]
Removing or at least changes to bridges will happen, even proponents realise this or the defence of the things wouldn't be so emotional.
But it will not do Eve any good if it is done on its own. - Blobs needs to be discouraged through mechanics that favour alternate approaches. The urge to min/max takes care of the rest. - Null industry needs a huge buff to help the lazy deal with Jita-teat withdrawal. - Formal vassal/allegiance system needs to be introduced to facilitate expatriation of high-sec corps/alliances. - Etc.
A teleportation can work in Eve provided it is not allowed to be omni-present thus by-passing 'normal' balancing methods. We are supposed to be playing a hard-core game for Goddess sake, convenience is one thing but the current state goes so far beyond that the word doesn't even apply any more.
Eve should reward strategy, organization and perseverance and not just whomever can lick the most asses and grease the most palms.
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Akirei Scytale
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Posted - 2011.04.13 08:58:00 -
[95]
Edited by: Akirei Scytale on 13/04/2011 08:59:29 the problem with anti-blob weapons is that when your opponent is capable of blobbing too, then they can wipe your fleet with one fell swoop and then move in unopposed with their own giant fleet. they existed before, and had to get removed for this reason.
the most effective anti-blob weapon in EVE is and will continue to be making more friends.
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El'Niaga
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2011.04.13 09:49:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Zey Nadar Edited by: Zey Nadar on 13/04/2011 06:39:19
Originally by: El'Niaga
What breaks the game is the lack of any anti blob weapons. There are no minefields, no bubbles that act like webs, almost non existent aoe weapons (bombs come to mind that's it), etc.
And look how people whined when there WERE (original doomsday). Wah Wah! We cant do anything this big meanie alliance doomsdays once every 5 minutes, we cant do anything! Wah!
I wish people could see the big picture. The problem isnt the JBs, the problem is that your enemy outnumbers you. Deal with it. JBs are a nice thing that benefits the alliance who can keep them running, and its a big investment of time (strategic indexes) and money (all the SCUs and poses and durp), while NOT being overpowered. You can take into account enemys JB network, estimate enemy fleet movements, and trap them accordingly. You can even cloakycamp enemy JBs for some occasional juicy cargo.
Its not about the tools, its about how you use them.
There's a big difference between No AOE and a AOE that hits the entire grid. Surely there is some middle ground.
I agree with the rest of what you say.
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El'Niaga
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2011.04.13 10:05:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Akirei Scytale Edited by: Akirei Scytale on 13/04/2011 08:59:29 the problem with anti-blob weapons is that when your opponent is capable of blobbing too, then they can wipe your fleet with one fell swoop and then move in unopposed with their own giant fleet. they existed before, and had to get removed for this reason.
the most effective anti-blob weapon in EVE is and will continue to be making more friends.
As I replied to Zey, the problem before was it killed everything on the grid (well you cuold survive properly fitted 1 firing, but if it had support then you were dead). There has to be some ground between hits everything and no aoe.
You can't gather enough friends to move from empire to 0.0 and claim your own space without the permission of one of the power blocks, any delusions otherwise is just that a delusion. Without a significant supercap fleet you can't do it. The catch 22 is that you can't build said supercap fleet without first having sov.
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Teddy Ruckspin
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Posted - 2011.04.13 10:05:00 -
[98]
Why nerf jumpbridges? Get a gang of stealth bombers and cloaked dictors together and go camp the bridges! The nerf bat is in the hands of the players
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Camios
Minmatar Sebiestor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.04.13 10:40:00 -
[99]
Edited by: Camios on 13/04/2011 10:40:57
Blobs do not form because people like them, but because people need them.
The reason why blob do build up is that the only way to save your logistical/industrial infrastructure from a hostile blob is another blob. In simple terms, to "survive" against a blob you need a blob. There is no way it could be different with the current POS / Outpost based industry/logistic.
Don't nerf blobs, boost small indepentent entities lifestyle!
...Giving them instruments to survive. We need installations that can do the the basic things an outpost/pos can do:
- Refitting
- Reshipping
- Ship storage
module/ammo storage can be done with safespot- anchored containers. - Industry services
like ammo, modules and even ship production, and refining
These installation should have some attributes:
- No reinforcement timers
- Little eHPs
you see it? get a small gang and blow it up- (possibly) Placed into a warp-gate-restricted area
- Semi invisibility
these installations should be hard to find, probes must be used, but a minimum lifespan must be assured,with an invisibility period (up to some days).
- Cheapness
since the chance of being destroyed is pretty high, losing one should not be the end of the world - Not reusable
otherwise people will just exploit the invisibility period.
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Shpenat
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Posted - 2011.04.13 11:00:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Akirei Scytale Edited by: Akirei Scytale on 13/04/2011 08:59:29 the problem with anti-blob weapons is that when your opponent is capable of blobbing too, then they can wipe your fleet with one fell swoop and then move in unopposed with their own giant fleet. they existed before, and had to get removed for this reason.
the most effective anti-blob weapon in EVE is and will continue to be making more friends.
Translated: The most effective anti-blob weapon in EvE is and will continue to be making bigger blob. Something is rotten in the State of Denmark.
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Xavier Isaacson
Minmatar Surface Detail
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Posted - 2011.04.13 11:20:00 -
[101]
10/10 for the troll. Large amounts of rage, 4 pages of replies, multiple pairs of panties twisted and even a thread quitter. Very good job Liang.
Originally by: Verone BBC Trust are a sack of arses.
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Shpenat
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Posted - 2011.04.13 11:20:00 -
[102]
TL;DR I support JB removal, but not alone.
People please learn how to discuss and possibly solve a problems.
"Nerf X, because it causes problem Y" is wrong way how to present an argument. because it leaves no room for constructive criticism or presenting another solution to solve problem Y.
"We have a problem Y. Lets solve it by nerfing X" is much better way. It stated what the problem is and possible solution. There is also room for discussion whether Y is actually a problem or not.
Lets demonstrate on OP example. He stated the problem Y: Originally by: Dr Larry Goldstein Jump bridges inequitably transfer sov into the hands of people who organize 800 person fleets who then casually jump into whatever system they would like and destroy POSes and the like.
This mechanic is entirely unfair as it provides an advantage for those who set up JBs and have a network of JBs. Not all 20 man corporations can do this.
And possible solution X: Originally by: Dr Larry Goldstein
JBs need a nerf or this game will simply become blocs of power.
I personally don't agree with Y. If some group invested a lot in building a system or region they should have advantage in that system or region.
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Raneru
Euphoria Released
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Posted - 2011.04.13 12:17:00 -
[103]
I agree with the OP in part, and judging by some of the comments at FF, so does CCP. I personally don't like that blocs can project force so easily and claim so much unused space, however claiming space should have some advantages. Perhaps more NPC claimed space breaking up JB networks or other natural phenomenon is needed to make networks more localised to single regions? Limitations to titan bridges would also need to be looked at as well.
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Akirei Scytale
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Posted - 2011.04.13 16:49:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Shpenat
Originally by: Akirei Scytale Edited by: Akirei Scytale on 13/04/2011 08:59:29 the problem with anti-blob weapons is that when your opponent is capable of blobbing too, then they can wipe your fleet with one fell swoop and then move in unopposed with their own giant fleet. they existed before, and had to get removed for this reason.
the most effective anti-blob weapon in EVE is and will continue to be making more friends.
Translated: The most effective anti-blob weapon in EvE is and will continue to be making bigger blob. Something is rotten in the State of Denmark.
Why is that a problem? Because it works like this IRL as well. In all the history of warfare, the larger force wins unless it has some sort of crippling deficiency.
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Irani Firecam
Gallente Lords 0f Justice Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2011.04.13 16:52:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Raneru I agree with the OP in part, and judging by some of the comments at FF, so does CCP. I personally don't like that blocs can project force so easily and claim so much unused space, however claiming space should have some advantages. Perhaps more NPC claimed space breaking up JB networks or other natural phenomenon is needed to make networks more localised to single regions? Limitations to titan bridges would also need to be looked at as well.
What's the point in the sovereignty mechanic if you cannot take sovereignty from the NPC?
My Wallpaper |
Cailais
Amarr Dawn of a new Empire The Initiative.
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Posted - 2011.04.13 17:14:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Akirei Scytale
Originally by: Shpenat
Originally by: Akirei Scytale Edited by: Akirei Scytale on 13/04/2011 08:59:29 the problem with anti-blob weapons is that when your opponent is capable of blobbing too, then they can wipe your fleet with one fell swoop and then move in unopposed with their own giant fleet. they existed before, and had to get removed for this reason.
the most effective anti-blob weapon in EVE is and will continue to be making more friends.
Translated: The most effective anti-blob weapon in EvE is and will continue to be making bigger blob. Something is rotten in the State of Denmark.
Why is that a problem? Because it works like this IRL as well. In all the history of warfare, the larger force wins unless it has some sort of crippling deficiency.
That's not actually true. There are numerous historical examples of the smaller power winning if not localised victories then out right victory.
Jump Bridges shrink the map this is certainly true, and that is an advantage to which ever force can do that. I wouldn't go as far to say that JB mechanics need to be removed outright; resources poured into their construction and maintenance should yield benefits.
Jump Brigde networks (POS to POS) aren't especially vulnerable to disruption; that might be something to look at in a sense they are (or could be) a 'small scale objective'. Jump Bridge networks (ship to ship) are to an extent problematic in terms of how they reduce the need for a large power to disperse its strength for regional protection.
Projecting force is a big deal (notice how large Aircraft carrier fleets are synonymous with major world powers) and shouldn't necessarily be removed. The issue is really how quickly that power can be projected which currently is very quickly indeed.
C.
the hydrostatic capsule blog
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fagzor Bathana
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Posted - 2011.04.13 18:20:00 -
[107]
I'll bet most of the people arguing against this are in huge 0.0 alliances and don't want to lost their monopoly. But look at it this way. There are maybe 350,000 active accounts. About 10,000 accounts control 80% of all space. Most corps will never get to own a piece of 0.0. So massive amounts of the game are pretty well closed off to most players.
Therefore jump bridges need to be nerfed. Or can you think of another way for more players to take part in the game?
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Irani Firecam
Gallente Lords 0f Justice Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2011.04.13 18:28:00 -
[108]
Edited by: Irani Firecam on 13/04/2011 18:32:10
Originally by: ***zor Bathana I'll bet most of the people arguing against this are in huge 0.0 alliances and don't want to lost their monopoly. But look at it this way. There are maybe 350,000 active accounts. About 10,000 accounts control 80% of all space. Most corps will never get to own a piece of 0.0. So massive amounts of the game are pretty well closed off to most players.
Therefore jump bridges need to be nerfed. Or can you think of another way for more players to take part in the game?
Solution is simple, gather up all the 340,000 accounts and blob an established alliance of your choosing. Call yourselves the Carebear Coalition, or something.
My Wallpaper |
Yuki Kulotsuki
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Posted - 2011.04.13 18:29:00 -
[109]
Originally by: ***zor Bathana I'll bet most of the people arguing against this are in huge 0.0 alliances and don't want to lost their monopoly. But look at it this way. There are maybe 350,000 active accounts. About 10,000 accounts control 80% of all space. Most corps will never get to own a piece of 0.0. So massive amounts of the game are pretty well closed off to most players.
Therefore jump bridges need to be nerfed. Or can you think of another way for more players to take part in the game?
>mfw the two biggest sov-holding alliances are full of rabid idiots who went to 0.0 with less than 10m SP.
-- Did you know there's an alliance who's name you're not allowed to say, or website you're not allowed to link? |
fagzor Bathana
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Posted - 2011.04.13 19:03:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Irani Firecam Edited by: Irani Firecam on 13/04/2011 18:32:10
Originally by: ***zor Bathana I'll bet most of the people arguing against this are in huge 0.0 alliances and don't want to lost their monopoly. But look at it this way. There are maybe 350,000 active accounts. About 10,000 accounts control 80% of all space. Most corps will never get to own a piece of 0.0. So massive amounts of the game are pretty well closed off to most players.
Therefore jump bridges need to be nerfed. Or can you think of another way for more players to take part in the game?
Solution is simple, gather up all the 340,000 accounts and blob an established alliance of your choosing. Call yourselves the Carebear Coalition, or something.
Yeah, that's good. Everyone in high sec is a carebear. They should get a small corp and take a piece of 0.0.....Oh wait. They can't. 0.0 is only for huge alliances. So they start discussions like this one. And get trolled.
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fagzor Bathana
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Posted - 2011.04.13 19:05:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Yuki Kulotsuki
Originally by: ***zor Bathana I'll bet most of the people arguing against this are in huge 0.0 alliances and don't want to lost their monopoly. But look at it this way. There are maybe 350,000 active accounts. About 10,000 accounts control 80% of all space. Most corps will never get to own a piece of 0.0. So massive amounts of the game are pretty well closed off to most players.
Therefore jump bridges need to be nerfed. Or can you think of another way for more players to take part in the game?
>mfw the two biggest sov-holding alliances are full of rabid idiots who went to 0.0 with less than 10m SP.
Another fantastic piece of advice. Take over 0.0 in a rifter. Troll much?
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Ori Empress
United Systems of the Allegiance Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2011.04.13 19:07:00 -
[112]
The Alliance i'm in only ever has less than 100 active people at anytime, and we have sov in systems in Fountain, using friendly Jump Bridges from allies. So your argument is invalid. Excuses excuses.
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fagzor Bathana
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Posted - 2011.04.13 19:21:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Ori Empress The Alliance i'm in only ever has less than 100 active people at anytime, and we have sov in systems in Fountain, using friendly Jump Bridges from allies. So your argument is invalid. Excuses excuses.
Glad you are enjoying the game. But really, the number speak for themselves. 95 percent of players never get out of empire. Calling them carebears is not really constructive.
Big alliances are good. But they should not control so much space. The mechanics need to be changed somehow, so that holding a 0.0 becomes a realistic aim for more corps. It shouldn't be easy, but it should be a realistic goal.
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Irani Firecam
Gallente Lords 0f Justice Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2011.04.13 19:23:00 -
[114]
Originally by: ***zor Bathana
Originally by: Ori Empress The Alliance i'm in only ever has less than 100 active people at anytime, and we have sov in systems in Fountain, using friendly Jump Bridges from allies. So your argument is invalid. Excuses excuses.
Glad you are enjoying the game. But really, the number speak for themselves. 95 percent of players never get out of empire. Calling them carebears is not really constructive.
Big alliances are good. But they should not control so much space. The mechanics need to be changed somehow, so that holding a 0.0 becomes a realistic aim for more corps. It shouldn't be easy, but it should be a realistic goal.
There is nothing preventing them from fighting for some space of their own.
My Wallpaper |
Yuki Kulotsuki
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Posted - 2011.04.13 19:28:00 -
[115]
Originally by: ***zor Bathana word word words words n+1 should not be more powerful than n
-- Did you know there's an alliance who's name you're not allowed to say, or website you're not allowed to link? |
Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.04.13 19:30:00 -
[116]
Originally by: ***zor Bathana Calling them carebears is not really constructive.
It's a simple statement of fact. I'm not sure why you're upset? :)
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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fagzor Bathana
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Posted - 2011.04.13 19:50:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Yuki Kulotsuki
Originally by: ***zor Bathana word word words words n+1 should not be more powerful than n
No, n+1000 should not control everything. The game mechanics as they are now allow a small fraction of the playerbase to control massive amounts of space. A couple of thousand people working together should have a lot of space, sure. But not a stupid amount.
OTOH why would CCP spend any resources developing a part of the game so few players are involved with? Maybe they should just turn 70% of 0.0 into high sec. Only a few percent of the playerbase would care. Most players would be actually happy with this. Resources would be better distributed and everyone is happy.
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Yuki Kulotsuki
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Posted - 2011.04.13 19:52:00 -
[118]
You sound like a space communist. Maybe you should join the Cluster****Coalition. -- Did you know there's an alliance who's name you're not allowed to say, or website you're not allowed to link? |
Irani Firecam
Gallente Lords 0f Justice Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2011.04.13 19:53:00 -
[119]
So by that logic if all the nullsec alliance got their members to create 10 alt accounts and moved them to their home regions, such that the high sec population are now the minority, then 70% of high sec should be turned into nullsec. Only a few percent of the population would care. Most players would be actually happy with this. Resources would be better distributed and everyone is happy.
My Wallpaper |
Yuki Kulotsuki
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Posted - 2011.04.13 19:54:00 -
[120]
Originally by: ***zor Bathana No, n+1000 should not control everything.
They don't. But for the sake of argument why shouldn't they? -- Did you know there's an alliance who's name you're not allowed to say, or website you're not allowed to link? |
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fagzor Bathana
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Posted - 2011.04.13 20:00:00 -
[121]
Originally by: Irani Firecam So by that logic if all the nullsec alliance got their members to create 10 alt accounts and moved them to their home regions, such that the high sec population are now the minority, then 70% of high sec should be turned into nullsec. Only a few percent of the population would care. Most players would be actually happy with this. Resources would be better distributed and everyone is happy.
It would take a lot more than ten accounts each, citizen. Maybe if they had 1000 accounts each they would outnumber 'carebears' by 10 to one.
Until more people are involved in sov battles it makes sense for our comrads at CCP to focus resources into creating a high-sec utopia.
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StillBorn CrackBaby
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Posted - 2011.04.13 20:05:00 -
[122]
Originally by: Bhattran I'm surprised by the lack of awe and respect being thrown in the OP's direction, hello people he's a Doctor, a Doctor!
You're right !!!
Doc, I'm StillBorn and I still got pain in my nads... What's wrong with me???
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Akirei Scytale
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Posted - 2011.04.13 20:56:00 -
[123]
Originally by: ***zor Bathana
Another fantastic piece of advice. Take over 0.0 in a rifter. Troll much?
uhh, Goonswarm and TEST did EXACTLY that.
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Feligast
Minmatar GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.13 21:29:00 -
[124]
Originally by: Teddy Ruckspin Why nerf jumpbridges? Get a gang of stealth bombers and cloaked dictors together and go camp the bridges! The nerf bat is in the hands of the players
A thousand times this. You want to stop us using our JB network? Come fight us for it, instead of begging Mommy CCP to hold your **** for you.
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Marconus Orion
S.E.G.W.A.Y.
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Posted - 2011.04.13 21:45:00 -
[125]
Originally by: Akirei Scytale
Originally by: ***zor Bathana
Another fantastic piece of advice. Take over 0.0 in a rifter. Troll much?
uhh, Goonswarm and TEST did EXACTLY that.
And all by themselves too. Right?
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Michael J Fox
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Posted - 2011.04.13 21:50:00 -
[126]
Originally by: Irani Firecam So by that logic if all the nullsec alliance got their members to create 10 alt accounts and moved them to their home regions, such that the high sec population are now the minority, then 70% of high sec should be turned into nullsec. Only a few percent of the population would care. Most players would be actually happy with this. Resources would be better distributed and everyone is happy.
350,000 players.
high sec pop 280,000. null pop 38,500.
if all the people in null had 10 alts there would be 385,000 of them, about 57% of the then total 665,000. In order to equal the population in high sec you would need nearly 14 alts per person currently in null.
so before you go pulling *******s quotes out of your arse about "so by that logic blah" you are missing the point entirely: the situation right now is that almost everyone lives in high sec - no 10 alts per person, literally 80% of the playerbase. If you can find the necessary 14 alts per person in null to equal this ill totally support you in calling for huge amounts of development in null.
OT: something needs done about JB but i dont know what.
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El'Niaga
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2011.04.13 21:57:00 -
[127]
Originally by: ***zor Bathana
Originally by: Ori Empress The Alliance i'm in only ever has less than 100 active people at anytime, and we have sov in systems in Fountain, using friendly Jump Bridges from allies. So your argument is invalid. Excuses excuses.
Glad you are enjoying the game. But really, the number speak for themselves. 95 percent of players never get out of empire. Calling them carebears is not really constructive.
Big alliances are good. But they should not control so much space. The mechanics need to be changed somehow, so that holding a 0.0 becomes a realistic aim for more corps. It shouldn't be easy, but it should be a realistic goal.
They control so much space because they have to.
Maybe do a little research but when the average null sec system can only support a half dozen players at a time, and you have an alliance of say 1500, then you need as much as 200 systems if all your people are in the same time zone. Even if you had equal coverage, if everyone is active you'd still need almost a hundred.
Now CCP took a step back with the changes to anomalies. Before the recent changes an upgraded system could support about twice as many as system that was not upgraded. However now with the changes half of null sec systems can't be upgraded to support so many.
To get the great empires to shrink you need each null sec system to support scores of pilots simultaneously. Then they will shrink but it will take time. However even then you can't challenge them until you have a counter for their supercap fleets which you can't get without first having sov, and that is the greatest flaw in the game.
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Ladie Scarlet
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.13 22:12:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Marconus Orion
Originally by: Akirei Scytale
Originally by: ***zor Bathana
Another fantastic piece of advice. Take over 0.0 in a rifter. Troll much?
uhh, Goonswarm and TEST did EXACTLY that.
And all by themselves too. Right?
Yep.
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Sphit Ker
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.04.13 23:19:00 -
[129]
Originally by: ***zor Bathana I'll bet most of the people arguing against this are in huge 0.0 alliances and don't want to lost their monopoly. But look at it this way. There are maybe 350,000 active accounts. About 10,000 accounts control 80% of all space. Most corps will never get to own a piece of 0.0. So massive amounts of the game are pretty well closed off to most players.
Therefore jump bridges need to be nerfed. Or can you think of another way for more players to take part in the game?
emphasis mine.
I was like that long before jump bridges even existed AFAIK. Im not sure I "get" your point.
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