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Solstice Project
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Posted - 2011.04.15 09:37:00 -
[1]
... gives me intel about the ppl (numbers, names, visits).
I'm currently sitting in a lowsec system,
exploring, plexing etc.
What i'm interested in is knowing the typical residents and passers-by.
Knowledge is power in this game.
My program would just take a screenshot regularly (which can't be illegal),
scan the names in local (window blown up on screen, no scrolling involved)
and save that to a database (*cough* textfile ^^),
including the time he spends in the system and how often he visits it.
This is much easier than "oranging" everybody i see in lowsec (tried that before)
just to know if he is a regular lowsec dweller or passing by or whatever.
I had this idea as soon as i started going deeper into lowsec
and it seems kind of usefull for me.
Also ... it gets me starting to code again.
OCR ain't that hard to do anyway.
It's all about gathering intel.
What i DON'T want to do is sit cloaked in space
with a fullscreen dscan-window and have my program press SCAN regularly
and to OCR that ... because THAT would be illegal.
(I report EVERYBODY who i encounter who does stuff that's against EULA)
As far as i believe,
i could even sell this program for ISK,
because it'll help ppl who gatecamp for WT and
when the program sees a WT in local it could BEEPBEEPBEEPBEEP, for example.
(now everybody goes "WOW GENIUS I'LL WRITE ONE MY OWN!!!")
TL;DR ->
My Code would make a screenshot and save names and times of ppl sitting
there or passing by.
Legal ? Barely legal ? (xD)
thx. :)
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Gavjack Bunk
Gallente
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2011.04.15 09:42:00 -
[2]
Be brave.
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2011.04.15 09:45:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Gavjack Bunk
Be brave.
And read EULA section 7. Not saying it applies but be mindful that those who get to say often will say so quite suddenly and arbitrarily.
Wealth, howsoever got, in Eve makes
Lords of morons and gentlemen of thieves;
Aptitude and intellect are needless here;
'Tis impudence and money that grants fame. |
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
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Posted - 2011.04.15 09:55:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Solstice Project
As far as i believe,
i could even sell this program for ISK,
because it'll help ppl who gatecamp for WT and
when the program sees a WT in local it could BEEPBEEPBEEPBEEP, for example.
(now everybody goes "WOW GENIUS I'LL WRITE ONE MY OWN!!!")
thx. :)
Heard of BACON? This fail-automation project is perilously close to it, so I don't think it's in your long-term gameplaying interests to do it.
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Fix the game's last broken weapon system - support if you care!
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Sturmwolke
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Posted - 2011.04.15 10:05:00 -
[5]
Similar to high profile BACON, except you're going the roundabout way in approach.
The program's defunct, afaik since CCP curtailed the reporting via logserver ..... but what's redacted, doesn't mean it's not there. You just need the proper key to access it. Whether it's possible to do so with Python injection or logserver tampering, keeping things low profile & hush-hush, I won't totally rule that out. That of course breaks the EULA in several places.
With regard to your approach, it's still essentially a macro.
For public consumption, I'd be surprised if the GMs say no prob, you go ahead.
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N'tek alar
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.04.15 10:10:00 -
[6]
That said, If you really want to know if it'd be allowed or not, You should probably file a petition and ask the GMs, not post on the forums :P |
gfldex
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Posted - 2011.04.15 10:31:00 -
[7]
If you program runs while you are AFK it's illegal.
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CCP Navigator
C C P
C C P Alliance
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Posted - 2011.04.15 10:41:00 -
[8]
As Shar Tegral ahs stated, The http://www.eveonline.com/pnp/eula.aspEULA/url] gets unhappy when third party programs of this nature are used.
The best advice, before you use any third party tool, is to submit a petition under 'EULA and terms of service' and let a GM investigate.
Navigator
Lead Community Representative
CCP Hf, EVE Online
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northwesten
Amarr
Trinity Corporate Services
Quantum Forge
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Posted - 2011.04.15 11:28:00 -
[9]
Originally by: CCP Navigator
As Shar Tegral ahs stated, The http://www.eveonline.com/pnp/eula.aspEULA/url] gets unhappy when third party programs of this nature are used.
The best advice, before you use any third party tool, is to submit a petition under 'EULA and terms of service' and let a GM investigate.
I would like to add you want this to go to the senior GM for the info. Some gm's don't have a clue and give you wrong information like GM Horse did twice...
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Alotta Baggage
Amarr
Imperial Manufactorum
Armada Assail
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Posted - 2011.04.15 11:38:00 -
[10]
Originally by: northwesten
Originally by: CCP Navigator
As Shar Tegral ahs stated, The http://www.eveonline.com/pnp/eula.aspEULA/url] gets unhappy when third party programs of this nature are used.
The best advice, before you use any third party tool, is to submit a petition under 'EULA and terms of service' and let a GM investigate.
I would like to add you want this to go to the senior GM for the info. Some gm's don't have a clue and give you wrong information like GM Horse did twice...
GM Horse has always been very good about solving my petitions, maybe he just hates you because you never give him sugar cubes
Originally by: Valkoinen Heteromies
I for one would love to be able to walk on stations and fly spaceships in the body of a little cute catgirl!
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Gavjack Bunk
Gallente
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2011.04.15 12:25:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Alotta Baggage
GM Horse has always been very good about solving my petitions, maybe he just hates you because you never give him sugar cubes
Are you female by any chance?
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Swynet
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Posted - 2011.04.15 12:28:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Gavjack Bunk
Are you female by any chance?
It's hard to say...maybe an hybrid? 
________________________________________________
Originally by: Goose99
In EVE, PVE can happen anywhere, anytime. Whenever you undock, you subject yourself to involuntary PVE.
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Lilith Savage
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Posted - 2011.04.15 12:31:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Gavjack Bunk
Originally by: Alotta Baggage
GM Horse has always been very good about solving my petitions, maybe he just hates you because you never give him sugar cubes
Are you female by any chance?
Must be, most females don't know how to use make-up.
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Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
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Posted - 2011.04.15 12:41:00 -
[14]
No point in asking here, like it has already been mentioned. However, I doubt it will be against the EULA as long as your are only taking screenshots. Anyone who is using FRAPS or any other video capturing software is taking hundreds of screenshots every minute without it affecting the client and it is allowed. As long as the data gathered is not fed to a bot or a macro, which then controls the client, should you be on the save side. But have a GM tell you this.
--
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Chesty McJubblies
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2011.04.15 12:50:00 -
[15]
Please do not use the screenshot function of your computer.
----------------------------------------
Looking for a good system, or area, to AFK Cloak. PM me with infos, or if you want a partner to be AFK with. |
Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2011.04.15 13:13:00 -
[16]
I agree that it would not be against the EULA however the reason I pointed it out was the other aspect of the OP's post. Specifically the reselling of a program that automates screen capture and OCR data mining for isk.
That might just take it somewhere Authority doesn't like.
Wealth, howsoever got, in Eve makes
Lords of morons and gentlemen of thieves;
Aptitude and intellect are needless here;
'Tis impudence and money that grants fame. |
Jojo Jackson
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.04.15 14:24:00 -
[17]
As far as I understand him, he just want to creat a analyse tool like all the market analyser (eve-market.com for example) but for system-visitors.
And as there are allready tools/web sites which provide jumps last 24h (dotlan anyone?) and far more, there might be a better way then screenshots to solve the data gethering ;).
Where is the difference in getting data from a log-file or a screenshot? Both don't interact with the client.
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Merouk Baas
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.04.15 14:31:00 -
[18]
You normally have to push a key to take a screenshot, and his program automates that. His program would be ok if it were just a program that takes a bunch of screenshots and gets some information from them, but the player must still sit at the keyboard and push the damn key to take each screenshot.
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Kuronaga
Kantian Principle
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Posted - 2011.04.15 14:53:00 -
[19]
This is automating a PC function and not necessarily messing with any of eve-onlines code.
To say a person cannot do this is to say he is not allowed to run any other program in the background on his PC, ever, as long as eve-online is running.
It is not against the EULA, therefore unless it is specifically re-written there is no reason the person should get in trouble for this.
And good luck re-writing the EULA to what would basically be playing EVE straight from DOS.
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Miilla
Minmatar
Hulkageddon Orphanage
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Posted - 2011.04.15 15:06:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Miilla on 15/04/2011 15:10:39
I consider this cheating, if I had to do the same thing as you do You would have the advantage of automation and I have to do it manually.
That means you have used automated tools to get an advantage over my STANDARD client which has not this capability.
You are MACROING local as a RADAR scanner. 2 problems here. your macro (cheating by you), and local (misuse by you due to bad planning by CCP).
If this happens I want this tool SHARED so we all have the same playing field
You gain an unfair advantage via automation that we do not have. YOU ARE CHEATING, plain and simple. The computer is playing the game NOT YOU.
If you are RESELLING this macro, I will report your game ID to the tax authorities :) Dont worry I will find out which country and CCP will have to cooporate with releasing your real identy to them for taxing :) Enjoy the pain.
Tax issues, hell yeah, you are getting a capital gain via eve for gametime. Either way you will have to explain it to them not me :)
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ceaon
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Posted - 2011.04.15 15:10:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Merouk Baas
You normally have to push a key to take a screenshot, and his program automates that. His program would be ok if it were just a program that takes a bunch of screenshots and gets some information from them, but the player must still sit at the keyboard and push the damn key to take each screenshot.
so fraps is not legal ? because u can set fraps to have a sshot each x seconds
Originally by: Danton Marcellus
If the whole country is corrupted then it's no longer corruption but culture.
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Nuniki
Percussive Diplomacy
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Posted - 2011.04.15 15:51:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Nuniki on 15/04/2011 15:53:43
You could just have something physically press your screenshot button every so often and have a program sort through that.
I mean, what are people going to report you for? Existing? Please.
If your program is illegal then so is EFT, all the market analysis tools, wormhole tools, etc.
Edit: It would be redonkulous for CCP to ban you for using this. First, they'd need a way to even know you were. Are they playing big brother and watching everything you're doing on your computer while you're playing eve? (the botting problem suggests no, but that's another story) If they are, what else are they going to ban you for? Anti Icelandic websites? Watching **** that doesn't star icelandic starlets?
Anyways, you get my point.
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2011.04.15 15:58:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Shar Tegral
for isk. That might just take it somewhere Authority doesn't like.
That's the only point I think that really matters. Furthermore, the boundary between PC function and automated scripted/coded behaviors is something that gets frowned upon. Logical or not, reasonable or not. Debate the EULA-ness all you like, and you will, your (you reading this) opinion does not matter in this. The fact is, when it comes down to automating software + isk resale tends to get sharply and critically reviewed. /thread
Wealth, howsoever got, in Eve makes
Lords of morons and gentlemen of thieves;
Aptitude and intellect are needless here;
'Tis impudence and money that grants fame. |
Cipher Jones
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.04.15 15:59:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Miilla
Edited by: Miilla on 15/04/2011 15:10:39
I consider this cheating, if I had to do the same thing as you do You would have the advantage of automation and I have to do it manually.
That means you have used automated tools to get an advantage over my STANDARD client which has not this capability.
You are MACROING local as a RADAR scanner. 2 problems here. your macro (cheating by you), and local (misuse by you due to bad planning by CCP).
If this happens I want this tool SHARED so we all have the same playing field
You gain an unfair advantage via automation that we do not have. YOU ARE CHEATING, plain and simple. The computer is playing the game NOT YOU.
If you are RESELLING this macro, I will report your game ID to the tax authorities :) Dont worry I will find out which country and CCP will have to cooporate with releasing your real identy to them for taxing :) Enjoy the pain.
Tax issues, hell yeah, you are getting a capital gain via eve for gametime. Either way you will have to explain it to them not me :)
The conundrum being that CCP has already approved mice publicly that do this same thing.
.
Adapt and overcome or become a monkey on an evolution poster.
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Illwill Bill
Nifelhem
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Posted - 2011.04.15 16:06:00 -
[25]
Originally by: ceaon
so fraps is not legal ? because u can set fraps to have a sshot each x seconds
Fraps itself cannot be used to automate gameplay.
To keep this on topic: if it uses the API, the IGB or the log server output, then it's good.
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist
Revenge is a dish best served with auto-cannons.
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Solstice Project
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Posted - 2011.04.15 16:58:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Solstice Project on 15/04/2011 17:00:49
Holy crap, so many responses ! O_o
I hope I can answer/respond to anything that came up.
First of all, I believe by definition it's not a macro.
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Keyboard macros and mouse macros allow short sequences of keystrokes and mouse actions to be transformed into other, usually more time-consuming, sequences of keystrokes and mouse actions. In this way, frequently-used or repetitive sequences of keystrokes and mouse movements can be automated.
--- (Source: Wikipedia)
There's no keypressing involved if I did this manually,
because I'd rather use pen&paper to collect the information.
I've tried "oranging" ppl but this approach is pretty much useless.
In no way I had the PLAN to sell this program for ISK, it was just an idea.
Also, I don't see why I would need to pay taxes for ingame-money.
(The program itself still is only an idea)
I never head of BACON (... bacon ... lol wtf),
but by taking a quick glance on the main site
it seems like it's purpose is related to what one could use my program for too.
Contacting a GM is a way to get an answer,
altough I really believe that I'll get different answers every time I ask.
(How do I "escalate" (?) to a higher level ?)
Furthermore, as it would only take screenshots and use the bitmap-data,
without ever touching the eve-client, keyboard- or mouse-handlers,
I am in no way automating gameplay.
About the "advantage" ...
The program would only do what I could do on my own,
but would help me save time and work doing it.
(That's what computers are there for anyway)
Please note that I did not have the intention to use the program AFK,
because intel about the times when I can't play due to work/whatever is useless for me.
(Think timezone-related here)
So, instead of me sitting there, watching local and writing down everything ...
... I thought about coding this thing that does it for me ...
... so I can continue playing the game.
There's no real advantage in using something like this,
because you could do the same on your own.
My "advantage" here only comes down to being able to code.
Again, knowledge is power.
Everybody has knowledge of something others don't have.
I can't repair cars ... some of you probably can and even charge money for it.
Screaming "OMG YOU HAZ UNFAIR ADVANTAGES" just because of my lack of knowledge doesn't apply here.
Everybody can learn how to code ... but not doing it is not my problem at all.
Okay, i smell a bad argument here.
"Everybody could use a bot ... if you don't do it, it's not my problem at all."
This argument is wrong because the bot does work within the game,
whereas my work here is not related to ingame-stuff,
but to stuff I have to do in real-life (using pen&paper).
Also ... please note that I posted this topic because I have nothing to hide.
If I had wanted to, I could just have started doing it and as I wouldn't use it AFK anyway,
there would be no way to find out about it.
(Edit: Actually, even AFK there's no way because it doesn't involve any input.)
I just wanted to know public (and DEVs) oppinion on it.
I did not start writing it.
If I say "**** it, I won't" then I won't do it.
Seems useless to me saying "**** it" but doing it anyway,
because nobody could tell the difference.
(yeah i'm an honest person ... believe me, they exist!)
Btw ... why did CCP chance the logserver to stop BACON from working,
if it's not against the EULA anyway ? (as stated on the website)
(holy crap, why is the cookie set so short ? I had to relogin and almost lost my post -.-)
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Illwill Bill
Nifelhem
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Posted - 2011.04.15 17:57:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Solstice Project
words
It's not just about using a "macro"; the real issue about automating gameplay and having a program playing a game for you.
As an example, I have my keyboard automate a few key sequences for me. This doesn't automate any game play at all, and it doesn't give any advantage compared to other players; it simply saves my wrists from some additional strain. According to previous statements by CCP, this is allowed.
While Shreegs has mentioned that previous interpretations of the EULA might not be valid anymore, I really, really doubt they will ban people for using their G15's to group weapons that can't be grouped otherwise.
Additionally, we have the API, which can be used to export data from the game. The in-game browser also has the option of adding functionality. Using those tools is not only allowed, but actively encouraged by CCP.
BACON, was controversial because it replaced the player by keeping an eye at local. CCP actually changed the way the log server worked to stop this. Thus, we can safely assume they wouldn't be happy about another application with similar functionality. While you wouldn't automate active game play, it would automate your own watching of local.
If you really want a definitive answer to your questions, then petition them. If you doubt the response, be nice, and kindly ask the GM to escalate the query to a senior GM, and explain that this is a very broad subject, and that you don't want to waste precious hours coding, or rob the community from using an awesome application because of a wrongful reply.
And yes, having someone watching local for you gives you the advantage of being able to focus on other things, rather than watching local.
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist
Revenge is a dish best served with auto-cannons.
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Mortania
Minmatar
Kinetic Cartel
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2011.04.15 18:05:00 -
[28]
By this logic, it should be illegal to use a calculator program as well, because it does the math for you and you could do the math yourself. So unfair advantage using that calculator!
Ombey/Dotlan: unfair advantage
Jump Calculator: unfair advantage
Eve-Central: unfair advantage
Killboards: unfair advantage
Excel: unfair advantage
Fraps: unfair advantage
Database dump: unfair advantage
Wordpad: unfair advantage
Computer: unfair advantage
Pencil: unfair advantage
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Illwill Bill
Nifelhem
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Posted - 2011.04.15 19:43:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Mortania
By this logic, it should be illegal to use a calculator program as well, because it does the math for you and you could do the math yourself. So unfair advantage using that calculator!
Ok, I'll bite.
There's a calculator and a notepad in-game, and the game provides functionality for copying and pasting. CCP has made certain data available through the DB dump and through the API, and they encourage using and developing third-party appications around this and the IGB.
They have, however, not made data from the local channel exportable, and thus they do not encourage using and developing third-party applications around it.
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist
Revenge is a dish best served with auto-cannons.
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Mortania
Minmatar
Kinetic Cartel
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2011.04.15 19:51:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Illwill Bill
Originally by: Mortania
By this logic, it should be illegal to use a calculator program as well, because it does the math for you and you could do the math yourself. So unfair advantage using that calculator!
Ok, I'll bite.
There's a calculator and a notepad in-game, and the game provides functionality for copying and pasting. CCP has made certain data available through the DB dump and through the API, and they encourage using and developing third-party appications around this and the IGB.
They have, however, not made data from the local channel exportable, and thus they do not encourage using and developing third-party applications around it.
Yeah, that's clearly the strawman. But market data isn't, but eve-central is around and is effectively doing the same thing, but for markets. Which CCP has also clearly avoided making easy to capture.
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