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Solstice Project
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Posted - 2011.04.15 09:37:00 -
[1]
... gives me intel about the ppl (numbers, names, visits).
I'm currently sitting in a lowsec system,
exploring, plexing etc.
What i'm interested in is knowing the typical residents and passers-by.
Knowledge is power in this game.
My program would just take a screenshot regularly (which can't be illegal),
scan the names in local (window blown up on screen, no scrolling involved)
and save that to a database (*cough* textfile ^^),
including the time he spends in the system and how often he visits it.
This is much easier than "oranging" everybody i see in lowsec (tried that before)
just to know if he is a regular lowsec dweller or passing by or whatever.
I had this idea as soon as i started going deeper into lowsec
and it seems kind of usefull for me.
Also ... it gets me starting to code again.
OCR ain't that hard to do anyway.
It's all about gathering intel.
What i DON'T want to do is sit cloaked in space
with a fullscreen dscan-window and have my program press SCAN regularly
and to OCR that ... because THAT would be illegal.
(I report EVERYBODY who i encounter who does stuff that's against EULA)
As far as i believe,
i could even sell this program for ISK,
because it'll help ppl who gatecamp for WT and
when the program sees a WT in local it could BEEPBEEPBEEPBEEP, for example.
(now everybody goes "WOW GENIUS I'LL WRITE ONE MY OWN!!!")
TL;DR ->
My Code would make a screenshot and save names and times of ppl sitting
there or passing by.
Legal ? Barely legal ? (xD)
thx. :)
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Gavjack Bunk
Gallente
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2011.04.15 09:42:00 -
[2]
Be brave.
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2011.04.15 09:45:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Gavjack Bunk
Be brave.
And read EULA section 7. Not saying it applies but be mindful that those who get to say often will say so quite suddenly and arbitrarily.
Wealth, howsoever got, in Eve makes
Lords of morons and gentlemen of thieves;
Aptitude and intellect are needless here;
'Tis impudence and money that grants fame. |
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
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Posted - 2011.04.15 09:55:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Solstice Project
As far as i believe,
i could even sell this program for ISK,
because it'll help ppl who gatecamp for WT and
when the program sees a WT in local it could BEEPBEEPBEEPBEEP, for example.
(now everybody goes "WOW GENIUS I'LL WRITE ONE MY OWN!!!")
thx. :)
Heard of BACON? This fail-automation project is perilously close to it, so I don't think it's in your long-term gameplaying interests to do it.
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Fix the game's last broken weapon system - support if you care!
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Sturmwolke
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Posted - 2011.04.15 10:05:00 -
[5]
Similar to high profile BACON, except you're going the roundabout way in approach.
The program's defunct, afaik since CCP curtailed the reporting via logserver ..... but what's redacted, doesn't mean it's not there. You just need the proper key to access it. Whether it's possible to do so with Python injection or logserver tampering, keeping things low profile & hush-hush, I won't totally rule that out. That of course breaks the EULA in several places.
With regard to your approach, it's still essentially a macro.
For public consumption, I'd be surprised if the GMs say no prob, you go ahead.
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N'tek alar
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.04.15 10:10:00 -
[6]
That said, If you really want to know if it'd be allowed or not, You should probably file a petition and ask the GMs, not post on the forums :P |
gfldex
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Posted - 2011.04.15 10:31:00 -
[7]
If you program runs while you are AFK it's illegal.
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CCP Navigator
C C P
C C P Alliance
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Posted - 2011.04.15 10:41:00 -
[8]
As Shar Tegral ahs stated, The http://www.eveonline.com/pnp/eula.aspEULA/url] gets unhappy when third party programs of this nature are used.
The best advice, before you use any third party tool, is to submit a petition under 'EULA and terms of service' and let a GM investigate.
Navigator
Lead Community Representative
CCP Hf, EVE Online
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northwesten
Amarr
Trinity Corporate Services
Quantum Forge
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Posted - 2011.04.15 11:28:00 -
[9]
Originally by: CCP Navigator
As Shar Tegral ahs stated, The http://www.eveonline.com/pnp/eula.aspEULA/url] gets unhappy when third party programs of this nature are used.
The best advice, before you use any third party tool, is to submit a petition under 'EULA and terms of service' and let a GM investigate.
I would like to add you want this to go to the senior GM for the info. Some gm's don't have a clue and give you wrong information like GM Horse did twice...
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Alotta Baggage
Amarr
Imperial Manufactorum
Armada Assail
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Posted - 2011.04.15 11:38:00 -
[10]
Originally by: northwesten
Originally by: CCP Navigator
As Shar Tegral ahs stated, The http://www.eveonline.com/pnp/eula.aspEULA/url] gets unhappy when third party programs of this nature are used.
The best advice, before you use any third party tool, is to submit a petition under 'EULA and terms of service' and let a GM investigate.
I would like to add you want this to go to the senior GM for the info. Some gm's don't have a clue and give you wrong information like GM Horse did twice...
GM Horse has always been very good about solving my petitions, maybe he just hates you because you never give him sugar cubes
Originally by: Valkoinen Heteromies
I for one would love to be able to walk on stations and fly spaceships in the body of a little cute catgirl!
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Gavjack Bunk
Gallente
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2011.04.15 12:25:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Alotta Baggage
GM Horse has always been very good about solving my petitions, maybe he just hates you because you never give him sugar cubes
Are you female by any chance?
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Swynet
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Posted - 2011.04.15 12:28:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Gavjack Bunk
Are you female by any chance?
It's hard to say...maybe an hybrid? 
________________________________________________
Originally by: Goose99
In EVE, PVE can happen anywhere, anytime. Whenever you undock, you subject yourself to involuntary PVE.
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Lilith Savage
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Posted - 2011.04.15 12:31:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Gavjack Bunk
Originally by: Alotta Baggage
GM Horse has always been very good about solving my petitions, maybe he just hates you because you never give him sugar cubes
Are you female by any chance?
Must be, most females don't know how to use make-up.
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Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
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Posted - 2011.04.15 12:41:00 -
[14]
No point in asking here, like it has already been mentioned. However, I doubt it will be against the EULA as long as your are only taking screenshots. Anyone who is using FRAPS or any other video capturing software is taking hundreds of screenshots every minute without it affecting the client and it is allowed. As long as the data gathered is not fed to a bot or a macro, which then controls the client, should you be on the save side. But have a GM tell you this.
--
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Chesty McJubblies
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2011.04.15 12:50:00 -
[15]
Please do not use the screenshot function of your computer.
----------------------------------------
Looking for a good system, or area, to AFK Cloak. PM me with infos, or if you want a partner to be AFK with. |
Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2011.04.15 13:13:00 -
[16]
I agree that it would not be against the EULA however the reason I pointed it out was the other aspect of the OP's post. Specifically the reselling of a program that automates screen capture and OCR data mining for isk.
That might just take it somewhere Authority doesn't like.
Wealth, howsoever got, in Eve makes
Lords of morons and gentlemen of thieves;
Aptitude and intellect are needless here;
'Tis impudence and money that grants fame. |
Jojo Jackson
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.04.15 14:24:00 -
[17]
As far as I understand him, he just want to creat a analyse tool like all the market analyser (eve-market.com for example) but for system-visitors.
And as there are allready tools/web sites which provide jumps last 24h (dotlan anyone?) and far more, there might be a better way then screenshots to solve the data gethering ;).
Where is the difference in getting data from a log-file or a screenshot? Both don't interact with the client.
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Merouk Baas
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.04.15 14:31:00 -
[18]
You normally have to push a key to take a screenshot, and his program automates that. His program would be ok if it were just a program that takes a bunch of screenshots and gets some information from them, but the player must still sit at the keyboard and push the damn key to take each screenshot.
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Kuronaga
Kantian Principle
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Posted - 2011.04.15 14:53:00 -
[19]
This is automating a PC function and not necessarily messing with any of eve-onlines code.
To say a person cannot do this is to say he is not allowed to run any other program in the background on his PC, ever, as long as eve-online is running.
It is not against the EULA, therefore unless it is specifically re-written there is no reason the person should get in trouble for this.
And good luck re-writing the EULA to what would basically be playing EVE straight from DOS.
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Miilla
Minmatar
Hulkageddon Orphanage
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Posted - 2011.04.15 15:06:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Miilla on 15/04/2011 15:10:39
I consider this cheating, if I had to do the same thing as you do You would have the advantage of automation and I have to do it manually.
That means you have used automated tools to get an advantage over my STANDARD client which has not this capability.
You are MACROING local as a RADAR scanner. 2 problems here. your macro (cheating by you), and local (misuse by you due to bad planning by CCP).
If this happens I want this tool SHARED so we all have the same playing field
You gain an unfair advantage via automation that we do not have. YOU ARE CHEATING, plain and simple. The computer is playing the game NOT YOU.
If you are RESELLING this macro, I will report your game ID to the tax authorities :) Dont worry I will find out which country and CCP will have to cooporate with releasing your real identy to them for taxing :) Enjoy the pain.
Tax issues, hell yeah, you are getting a capital gain via eve for gametime. Either way you will have to explain it to them not me :)
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ceaon
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Posted - 2011.04.15 15:10:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Merouk Baas
You normally have to push a key to take a screenshot, and his program automates that. His program would be ok if it were just a program that takes a bunch of screenshots and gets some information from them, but the player must still sit at the keyboard and push the damn key to take each screenshot.
so fraps is not legal ? because u can set fraps to have a sshot each x seconds
Originally by: Danton Marcellus
If the whole country is corrupted then it's no longer corruption but culture.
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Nuniki
Percussive Diplomacy
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Posted - 2011.04.15 15:51:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Nuniki on 15/04/2011 15:53:43
You could just have something physically press your screenshot button every so often and have a program sort through that.
I mean, what are people going to report you for? Existing? Please.
If your program is illegal then so is EFT, all the market analysis tools, wormhole tools, etc.
Edit: It would be redonkulous for CCP to ban you for using this. First, they'd need a way to even know you were. Are they playing big brother and watching everything you're doing on your computer while you're playing eve? (the botting problem suggests no, but that's another story) If they are, what else are they going to ban you for? Anti Icelandic websites? Watching **** that doesn't star icelandic starlets?
Anyways, you get my point.
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2011.04.15 15:58:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Shar Tegral
for isk. That might just take it somewhere Authority doesn't like.
That's the only point I think that really matters. Furthermore, the boundary between PC function and automated scripted/coded behaviors is something that gets frowned upon. Logical or not, reasonable or not. Debate the EULA-ness all you like, and you will, your (you reading this) opinion does not matter in this. The fact is, when it comes down to automating software + isk resale tends to get sharply and critically reviewed. /thread
Wealth, howsoever got, in Eve makes
Lords of morons and gentlemen of thieves;
Aptitude and intellect are needless here;
'Tis impudence and money that grants fame. |
Cipher Jones
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.04.15 15:59:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Miilla
Edited by: Miilla on 15/04/2011 15:10:39
I consider this cheating, if I had to do the same thing as you do You would have the advantage of automation and I have to do it manually.
That means you have used automated tools to get an advantage over my STANDARD client which has not this capability.
You are MACROING local as a RADAR scanner. 2 problems here. your macro (cheating by you), and local (misuse by you due to bad planning by CCP).
If this happens I want this tool SHARED so we all have the same playing field
You gain an unfair advantage via automation that we do not have. YOU ARE CHEATING, plain and simple. The computer is playing the game NOT YOU.
If you are RESELLING this macro, I will report your game ID to the tax authorities :) Dont worry I will find out which country and CCP will have to cooporate with releasing your real identy to them for taxing :) Enjoy the pain.
Tax issues, hell yeah, you are getting a capital gain via eve for gametime. Either way you will have to explain it to them not me :)
The conundrum being that CCP has already approved mice publicly that do this same thing.
.
Adapt and overcome or become a monkey on an evolution poster.
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Illwill Bill
Nifelhem
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Posted - 2011.04.15 16:06:00 -
[25]
Originally by: ceaon
so fraps is not legal ? because u can set fraps to have a sshot each x seconds
Fraps itself cannot be used to automate gameplay.
To keep this on topic: if it uses the API, the IGB or the log server output, then it's good.
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist
Revenge is a dish best served with auto-cannons.
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Solstice Project
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Posted - 2011.04.15 16:58:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Solstice Project on 15/04/2011 17:00:49
Holy crap, so many responses ! O_o
I hope I can answer/respond to anything that came up.
First of all, I believe by definition it's not a macro.
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Keyboard macros and mouse macros allow short sequences of keystrokes and mouse actions to be transformed into other, usually more time-consuming, sequences of keystrokes and mouse actions. In this way, frequently-used or repetitive sequences of keystrokes and mouse movements can be automated.
--- (Source: Wikipedia)
There's no keypressing involved if I did this manually,
because I'd rather use pen&paper to collect the information.
I've tried "oranging" ppl but this approach is pretty much useless.
In no way I had the PLAN to sell this program for ISK, it was just an idea.
Also, I don't see why I would need to pay taxes for ingame-money.
(The program itself still is only an idea)
I never head of BACON (... bacon ... lol wtf),
but by taking a quick glance on the main site
it seems like it's purpose is related to what one could use my program for too.
Contacting a GM is a way to get an answer,
altough I really believe that I'll get different answers every time I ask.
(How do I "escalate" (?) to a higher level ?)
Furthermore, as it would only take screenshots and use the bitmap-data,
without ever touching the eve-client, keyboard- or mouse-handlers,
I am in no way automating gameplay.
About the "advantage" ...
The program would only do what I could do on my own,
but would help me save time and work doing it.
(That's what computers are there for anyway)
Please note that I did not have the intention to use the program AFK,
because intel about the times when I can't play due to work/whatever is useless for me.
(Think timezone-related here)
So, instead of me sitting there, watching local and writing down everything ...
... I thought about coding this thing that does it for me ...
... so I can continue playing the game.
There's no real advantage in using something like this,
because you could do the same on your own.
My "advantage" here only comes down to being able to code.
Again, knowledge is power.
Everybody has knowledge of something others don't have.
I can't repair cars ... some of you probably can and even charge money for it.
Screaming "OMG YOU HAZ UNFAIR ADVANTAGES" just because of my lack of knowledge doesn't apply here.
Everybody can learn how to code ... but not doing it is not my problem at all.
Okay, i smell a bad argument here.
"Everybody could use a bot ... if you don't do it, it's not my problem at all."
This argument is wrong because the bot does work within the game,
whereas my work here is not related to ingame-stuff,
but to stuff I have to do in real-life (using pen&paper).
Also ... please note that I posted this topic because I have nothing to hide.
If I had wanted to, I could just have started doing it and as I wouldn't use it AFK anyway,
there would be no way to find out about it.
(Edit: Actually, even AFK there's no way because it doesn't involve any input.)
I just wanted to know public (and DEVs) oppinion on it.
I did not start writing it.
If I say "**** it, I won't" then I won't do it.
Seems useless to me saying "**** it" but doing it anyway,
because nobody could tell the difference.
(yeah i'm an honest person ... believe me, they exist!)
Btw ... why did CCP chance the logserver to stop BACON from working,
if it's not against the EULA anyway ? (as stated on the website)
(holy crap, why is the cookie set so short ? I had to relogin and almost lost my post -.-)
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Illwill Bill
Nifelhem
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Posted - 2011.04.15 17:57:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Solstice Project
words
It's not just about using a "macro"; the real issue about automating gameplay and having a program playing a game for you.
As an example, I have my keyboard automate a few key sequences for me. This doesn't automate any game play at all, and it doesn't give any advantage compared to other players; it simply saves my wrists from some additional strain. According to previous statements by CCP, this is allowed.
While Shreegs has mentioned that previous interpretations of the EULA might not be valid anymore, I really, really doubt they will ban people for using their G15's to group weapons that can't be grouped otherwise.
Additionally, we have the API, which can be used to export data from the game. The in-game browser also has the option of adding functionality. Using those tools is not only allowed, but actively encouraged by CCP.
BACON, was controversial because it replaced the player by keeping an eye at local. CCP actually changed the way the log server worked to stop this. Thus, we can safely assume they wouldn't be happy about another application with similar functionality. While you wouldn't automate active game play, it would automate your own watching of local.
If you really want a definitive answer to your questions, then petition them. If you doubt the response, be nice, and kindly ask the GM to escalate the query to a senior GM, and explain that this is a very broad subject, and that you don't want to waste precious hours coding, or rob the community from using an awesome application because of a wrongful reply.
And yes, having someone watching local for you gives you the advantage of being able to focus on other things, rather than watching local.
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist
Revenge is a dish best served with auto-cannons.
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Mortania
Minmatar
Kinetic Cartel
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2011.04.15 18:05:00 -
[28]
By this logic, it should be illegal to use a calculator program as well, because it does the math for you and you could do the math yourself. So unfair advantage using that calculator!
Ombey/Dotlan: unfair advantage
Jump Calculator: unfair advantage
Eve-Central: unfair advantage
Killboards: unfair advantage
Excel: unfair advantage
Fraps: unfair advantage
Database dump: unfair advantage
Wordpad: unfair advantage
Computer: unfair advantage
Pencil: unfair advantage
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Illwill Bill
Nifelhem
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Posted - 2011.04.15 19:43:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Mortania
By this logic, it should be illegal to use a calculator program as well, because it does the math for you and you could do the math yourself. So unfair advantage using that calculator!
Ok, I'll bite.
There's a calculator and a notepad in-game, and the game provides functionality for copying and pasting. CCP has made certain data available through the DB dump and through the API, and they encourage using and developing third-party appications around this and the IGB.
They have, however, not made data from the local channel exportable, and thus they do not encourage using and developing third-party applications around it.
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist
Revenge is a dish best served with auto-cannons.
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Mortania
Minmatar
Kinetic Cartel
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2011.04.15 19:51:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Illwill Bill
Originally by: Mortania
By this logic, it should be illegal to use a calculator program as well, because it does the math for you and you could do the math yourself. So unfair advantage using that calculator!
Ok, I'll bite.
There's a calculator and a notepad in-game, and the game provides functionality for copying and pasting. CCP has made certain data available through the DB dump and through the API, and they encourage using and developing third-party appications around this and the IGB.
They have, however, not made data from the local channel exportable, and thus they do not encourage using and developing third-party applications around it.
Yeah, that's clearly the strawman. But market data isn't, but eve-central is around and is effectively doing the same thing, but for markets. Which CCP has also clearly avoided making easy to capture.
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Illwill Bill
Nifelhem
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Posted - 2011.04.15 19:57:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Mortania
eve-central.
Good point! Is there an official stance on the Eve-central uploader?
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist
Revenge is a dish best served with auto-cannons.
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Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
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Posted - 2011.04.15 20:03:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Illwill Bill
It's not just about using a "macro"; the real issue about automating gameplay and having a program playing a game for you.
As an example, I have my keyboard automate a few key sequences for me. This doesn't automate any game play at all, and it doesn't give any advantage compared to other players; it simply saves my wrists from some additional strain. According to previous statements by CCP, this is allowed. ...
It is already a macro. CCP needs to draw the line somewhere and the EULA is clear about it.
It may not be the smartest macro, but you are also not the smartest cheater. What you do however is described by the EULA as not allowed. You are only a fool when you believe that saving your wrists is a valid argument. Any macro or bot will save your wrists ...
--
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Kuronaga
Kantian Principle
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Posted - 2011.04.15 20:22:00 -
[33]
Well god forbid a player does something on his own to create an advantage!
That's just downright insanity, I thought we were all aspiring to be on a completely level playing field all of the time, amirite?
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Vmir Gallahasen
Gallente
United Mining And Distribution
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Posted - 2011.04.15 20:36:00 -
[34]
It's amazing how far people will go to try and justify their cheating.
Originally by: Solstice Project
First of all, I believe by definition it's not a macro.
---
Keyboard macros and mouse macros allow short sequences of keystrokes and mouse actions to be transformed into other, usually more time-consuming, sequences of keystrokes and mouse actions. In this way, frequently-used or repetitive sequences of keystrokes and mouse movements can be automated.
--- (Source: Wikipedia)
But didn't you say earlier:
Originally by: Solstice Project
My program would just take a screenshot regularly (which can't be illegal),
scan the names in local (window blown up on screen, no scrolling involved)
and save that to a database (*cough* textfile ^^),
including the time he spends in the system and how often he visits it.
It's pretty much exactly a macro. Instead of reading names in local, writing them down and tracking them manually by yourself which consists of several hundred keypresses, this program runs and does it all for you
Originally by: Solstice Project
Furthermore, as it would only take screenshots and use the bitmap-data,
without ever touching the eve-client, keyboard- or mouse-handlers,
I am in no way automating gameplay.
Except for the part where you're entirely automating a process that otherwise would require you to put in effort at the computer right? 
The most hilarious part is that I think some deep part of you recognizes that this is against the rules. Look here:
Originally by: Solstice Project
What i DON'T want to do is sit cloaked in space
with a fullscreen dscan-window and have my program press SCAN regularly
and to OCR that ... because THAT would be illegal.
(I report EVERYBODY who i encounter who does stuff that's against EULA)
What exactly is the difference between taking a screenshot of a fullscreen dscan-window, using OCR to read names off it, etc and taking a screenshot of a fullscreen local window, using OCR to read names off it, etc? According to your own post, if you knew you were using your program you'd have to report yourself
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Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
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Posted - 2011.04.15 21:28:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Vmir Gallahasen
Originally by: Solstice Project
What i DON'T want to do is sit cloaked in space
with a fullscreen dscan-window and have my program press SCAN regularly
and to OCR that ... because THAT would be illegal.
(I report EVERYBODY who i encounter who does stuff that's against EULA)
What exactly is the difference between taking a screenshot of a fullscreen dscan-window, using OCR to read names off it, etc and taking a screenshot of a fullscreen local window, using OCR to read names off it, etc? According to your own post, if you knew you were using your program you'd have to report yourself
The difference is that the d-scan does not automatically repeat itself.
I believe that he can take as many screenshots as he likes and then do whatever he wants with them. One point the EULA emphasizes on is the automation of the game play.
The EULA however not only forbids the use of macros, but it also forbids increased network and CPU load on the server side. To be technical, if he used a macro to run d-scan repeatedly and this would not already break the rule regarding macros and the automation of game play (i.e. acquiring of data), would he cause an increased server load as well, and thereby break a different rule of the agreement.
As long as he takes screenshots, or simply creates a video recording should he not have a problem. If he then feeds the video into some OCR software and makes the data available as a web service should this still not be a problem. It does however depend on what he records. Recording of mails and chat channels will interfere with players' privacy. I do not know the EULA in all its details.
Again, it is better to ask a GM before you do anything half- or fully automatic.
--
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Lost Greybeard
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Posted - 2011.04.15 21:39:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Alotta Baggage
GM Horse has always been very good about solving my petitions, maybe he just hates you because you never give him sugar cubes
He warps across the stargates, the thoroughbred of GiM!
He just read the petition that you fools. sent. him!
It needs some arbitration, so let him help you win:
A macro wrote
a fifth of gin
the EULA done been broke a-gin
GiM Horse! (GiM Horse!) GiM Horse! (He's GiM!)
(Futilely ducks the yellow-text hammer.)
---
If you outlaw tautologies, only outlaws will have tautologies. ~Anonymous |
Illwill Bill
Nifelhem
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Posted - 2011.04.15 21:42:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Illwill Bill on 15/04/2011 21:44:38
Originally by: Whitehound
It is already a macro. CCP needs to draw the line somewhere and the EULA is clear about it.
It may not be the smartest macro, but you are also not the smartest cheater. What you do however is described by the EULA as not allowed. You are only a fool when you believe that saving your wrists is a valid argument. Any macro or bot will save your wrists ...
Linkage
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist
Revenge is a dish best served with auto-cannons.
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Vmir Gallahasen
Gallente
United Mining And Distribution
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Posted - 2011.04.15 21:43:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Whitehound
I believe that he can take as many screenshots as he likes and then do whatever he wants with them. One point the EULA emphasizes on is the automation of the game play.
And a program that enters data into a database for you doesn't count as automation? You might narrowly escape the automation rule if you required an actual human to press the screenshot button every time, but if there's no human involvement at all in gathering data then it's automation
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Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
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Posted - 2011.04.15 21:50:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Whitehound on 15/04/2011 21:50:25
Originally by: Vmir Gallahasen
And a program that enters data into a database for you doesn't count as automation?
A car that drives down a road is an automation. The point you fail to see is the purpose of the automation.
--
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Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
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Posted - 2011.04.15 21:56:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Illwill Bill
Linkage
The G15 is an exception. It does not allow for everyone to suddenly use macros, because one single devices that is know to a GM has been sanctioned. Might be the next model (maybe the G16 or whatever) allows for further features and is already not allowed any more.
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Mortania
Minmatar
Kinetic Cartel
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2011.04.15 21:58:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Whitehound
As long as he takes screenshots, or simply creates a video recording should he not have a problem. If he then feeds the video into some OCR software and makes the data available as a web service should this still not be a problem.
This is the line I would ride. It appears to be why things like eve-central and dotlan are ok.
Automatic gathering of data, as long as it doesn't cause load, shouldn't be a problem. Automatic USE of data is where you become a bot.
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Illwill Bill
Nifelhem
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Posted - 2011.04.15 22:09:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Illwill Bill on 15/04/2011 22:13:26
Originally by: Whitehound
Edited by: Whitehound on 15/04/2011 21:58:54
Originally by: Illwill Bill
Linkage
The G15 is or was an exception. The link is then from the year 2007. It does not allow for everyone to suddenly use macros, because one single device that is know to a GM has been sanctioned. Might be the next model (maybe the G16 or whatever) allows for further features and is already not allowed any more. It is even possible that another GM disallowed the G15 in the meantime.
Good thing I have a G15, then.
Edit: Edit posts a lot?
I've had that G15 since 2007, and I verified I'm allowed to use it that way back then. I will continue using it that way until a CCP representative tells me their policy has changed.
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist
Revenge is a dish best served with auto-cannons.
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Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
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Posted - 2011.04.15 22:15:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Illwill Bill
Good thing I have a G15, then.
I am only warning you. If you think it is worth risking your account for the sake of having an argument then you sure are dumb.
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Liquldsteel
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Posted - 2011.04.15 22:43:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Alotta Baggage
Originally by: northwesten
Originally by: CCP Navigator
As Shar Tegral has stated, The EULA gets unhappy when third party programs of this nature are used.
The best advice, before you use any third party tool, is to submit a petition under 'EULA and terms of service' and let a GM investigate.
I would like to add you want this to go to the senior GM for the info. Some gm's don't have a clue and give you wrong information like GM Horse did twice...
GM Horse has always been very good about solving my petitions, maybe he just hates you because you never give him sugar cubes
Looks more like a Hermaphrodite. 
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Barakkus
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Posted - 2011.04.15 23:17:00 -
[45]
Anyone remember Jita-Cam from last year? Same thing imo.
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[SERVICE] Corp Standings For POS anchoring
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Solstice Project
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Posted - 2011.04.16 10:04:00 -
[46]
wow, second page already. O_o
If i were trolling, i'd get a 10/10 for that. lol
But seriously ...
... it seems that ...
... if i avoid the automatic screenshotting ...
... and just do it manually ...
... and hook the program to the clipboard (nothing illegal there) ...
... i'm totally in safe harbour.
No one can prevent me from using the bitmap for whatever i want.
That would be like saying i'm not allowed to photoshop the screenshot,
which obviously is ridiculous.
Of course, i still use a program to gather data,
but that's (altough some believe it's unfair) totally legal.
It's only unfair because other ppl can't code, which is ... not my fault.
(OMG HE HAZ FAR MOR SKILLPOINTS THAN ME THATS UNFAIRZ!!!!!)
Seems to be the "final round" now.
The removal of the automatic screenshotting seems to erradicate
any legal issues, as far as i see it.
Any more oppinions on the change ?
(btw ... thx for posting to all of you!)
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2011.04.16 10:13:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Solstice Project
Any more oppinions on the change ?
I'm off the opinion that you are going to get yourself butthurt when someone shoves the banhammer up your bum. I'll try to use single syllables: Write mail to GM's. Ask GM's. Wait for GM speak. Don't talk on forums. Damn, had to use two syllables at the end there. Letting yourself be guided by the opinions of the forums is like asking to be tossed into a jail cell with a 6'8" 450 pounder named Bubba whose first words to you are, "You are my little puppy now."
Wealth, howsoever got, in Eve makes
Lords of morons and gentlemen of thieves;
Aptitude and intellect are needless here;
'Tis impudence and money that grants fame. |
Nuniki
Percussive Diplomacy
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Posted - 2011.04.16 10:53:00 -
[48]
There's no way for them to tell if you used a script to press the screenshot key or if you actually hit it yourself, unless of course they come to your house and watch you play EVE everyday. After that point, what you do with the data (screenshot) you gathered is 100% your own business. You can print them out and jerk it to them if you really wanted to, it's not for CCP to decide what you use your computer for.
Basically, the only thing they might try to moderate is you taking a screenshot, which they can't actually do. Nor can someone flying by see that you're taking screenshots, so it's not even reportable.
Game point.
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Krud Rurssel
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Posted - 2011.04.16 11:09:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Krud Rurssel on 16/04/2011 11:12:04
Originally by: Whitehound
Originally by: Illwill Bill
Good thing I have a G15, then.
I am only warning you. If you think it is worth risking your account for the sake of having an argument then you sure are dumb.
G15 keyboards are perfectly legal. Please shut up.
It is also possible to use a programme called 'auto hot key' to set up macros for firing guns, scram, web etc on a standard keyboard.
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Patient 2428190
DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School
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Posted - 2011.04.16 11:13:00 -
[50]
I'd file multiple petitions and escalate as many as possible.
I don't think anybody in CCP's GM department communicates with each other, so you want to get as many takes on the situation before you go along with it, or you will get the OK and then find yourself banned in the near future.
...Then when you stopped to think about it. All you really said was Lalala. |
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Nuniki
Percussive Diplomacy
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Posted - 2011.04.16 11:21:00 -
[51]
My actual advice on this subject? Let this thread die, don't open any petitions. I can guarantee you there are many people who currently do something similar to this if not exactly the same thing. It's easy to do and doesn't break the EULA in any way shape or form. It does not automate game play, period. Even if you 'automate' taking a screenshot, everything beyond that point is 100% outside of the game, and thus outside of CCP 'jurisdiction'.
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Solstice Project
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Posted - 2011.04.16 11:42:00 -
[52]
Again, i am posting this because i don't have anything to hide
and am curious about your oppinions on the topic.
Nuniki pretty much says it all actually.
As i do not want to get banned for whatever reason,
if i write it, i'll just screenshot manually.
Altough i know there's no way to notice for anybody,
i feel more comfortable this way.
Also ... petitioning gives me a creepy feeling,
because there's too many oppinions and i don't want
to **** anybody off for letting them escalate the petition
or doing it multiple times.
I do not have trust in GMs to be honest,
(probably because i can't stand obeying authority)
altough they always did great work when i petitioned something!
It's nothing personal.
Thank you all for your advises, oppinions and some trollings too,
which i simply didn't respond too. ^^
*closed*
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Shawnm339
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Posted - 2011.04.16 11:42:00 -
[53]
As someone who's used data mining in poker to learn more about an opponent (Poker Office and Poker Tracker the 2 most popular) how is this different?
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Eclorc
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Posted - 2011.04.16 12:40:00 -
[54]
My two pence worth:
Screen capture cannot be made illegal, FRAPS for example.
The grey area is the further processing of those screen caps by the same program and generating other data from that.
Once a screenshot is on your drive you can use whatever you want to do whatever you want with it, be that MkI eyeball or automated processing.
The obvious solution would be to split the screen cap part off from the processing side, screen cap app takes shots and saves to a drop-box directory. Second process (isolated from the screen cap one) then scans directory for new images and then processes them for whatever purpose you can imagine. This cannot be construed or argued as being against EULA without banning everyone that has ever used FRAPS... |
Sullen Skoung
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Posted - 2011.04.16 13:03:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Sullen Skoung on 16/04/2011 13:05:40
Originally by: N'tek alar
That said, If you really want to know if it'd be allowed or not, You should probably file a petition and ask the GMs, not post on the forums :P
Or invoke the name of "security guy" Sreegs an see if he'll comment
Given that security is his job an all lol
Unless this isnt his department too
--------
Dammit, they killed the post where Sreegs says personal attacks are against the rules. I wanted to lol at him for that |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.04.16 13:04:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Mortania
Originally by: Illwill Bill
Originally by: Mortania
By this logic, it should be illegal to use a calculator program as well, because it does the math for you and you could do the math yourself. So unfair advantage using that calculator!
Ok, I'll bite.
There's a calculator and a notepad in-game, and the game provides functionality for copying and pasting. CCP has made certain data available through the DB dump and through the API, and they encourage using and developing third-party appications around this and the IGB.
They have, however, not made data from the local channel exportable, and thus they do not encourage using and developing third-party applications around it.
Yeah, that's clearly the strawman. But market data isn't, but eve-central is around and is effectively doing the same thing, but for markets. Which CCP has also clearly avoided making easy to capture.
Yeah, it's so hard that you have to press "Export to file" to do it.
Auditing | Research | 3rd Party | Collateral Holding | EvE RL Charity |
Solstice Project
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Posted - 2011.04.16 13:49:00 -
[57]
Okay, this doesn't seem to end. ^^
Maybe he's referring to the cache-files,
which i believe weren't that easy to use.
Anyhow, the comparison still remains flawed.
btw ... is there anything i can do so i don't
have to relogin every time i post ?
Is there a hidden "stay logged in"-checkbutton ?
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Mr Dilkington
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Posted - 2011.04.16 13:57:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Miilla
Edited by: Miilla on 15/04/2011 15:10:39
If you are RESELLING this macro, I will report your game ID to the tax authorities :) Dont worry I will find out which country and CCP will have to cooporate with releasing your real identy to them for taxing :) Enjoy the pain.
hahahaha
good one.
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Kengutsi Akira
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Posted - 2011.04.16 14:53:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Solstice Project
No one can prevent me from using...
Noone can prevent you from using anything, you can get banned for using literally anything. They could ban you for this post if they wanted to cause of that "we reserve the right to ban anyone for anything" thing in the eula
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"You know, my foot oughta vandilize your ass" |
Reeno Coleman
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Posted - 2011.04.16 15:00:00 -
[60]
Use a camera//webcam to take 'screenshots'. So, basically build a program that is completely independent of eve, doesn't receive data, doesn't trigger any functions, and you're safe.
You can even have it run on a different computer.
That's like having a friend sitting beside you, taking notes and screaming at you when someone enters (:
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Solstice Project
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Posted - 2011.04.16 15:17:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Solstice Project on 16/04/2011 15:18:24
Edit: omg page three O_o
Originally by: Reeno Coleman
That's like having a friend sitting beside you, taking notes and screaming at you when someone enters (:
+1
*LOL*
oh i'd love to see that happen at least once. :)
Too bad the only guy i know who plays EvE is a
egoblown carebear who believes he's superior because
he always gets to fly the next big ship. ^^
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Taedrin
Gallente
The Green Cross
Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2011.04.16 15:31:00 -
[62]
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that what the OP is suggesting is against the EULA. You see, AFAIK the EULA doesn't prohibit third party applications. It prohibits the automation of gameplay. So fraps is OK, so long as you don't use it in combination with some optical character recognition to scout local for you without you being at the computer.
Now, to be frank, you could easily get away with this, for two reasons:
- So long as the OP uses it as described, it will be very hard to detect. It isn't like BACON which outright tells you to log off when someone enters the system, so it will be hard to tell if someone is using it. ONe of the reasons why BACON got shutdown by CCP is because EVERY time you entered a 0.0 system, everyone logged off instantly. Very easy to detect.
- It would be hard to circumvent. Any way which prevents your program from grabbing screen captures would also break fraps which would be a huge loss to the EVE community. I don't think CCP would be willing to go this far. Of course, this problem could be solved if CCP gave us a battle-recorder (Please, CCP?).
----------
Originally by: Dr Fighter
"how do you know when youve had a repro accident"
Theres modules missing and morphite in your mineral pile.
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Kengutsi Akira
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Posted - 2011.04.16 16:00:00 -
[63]
went into another thread where a GM posted and asked for a ruling but yeah... gl with that. And Sreegs doesnt seem to be talking either.
See, thats a thing I hate about the vague nature of the EULA and their refusal to pin it down, it could NOT say specifically what you want to do is illeal but then you still get banned >.<
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"You know, my foot oughta vandilize your ass" |
Solstice Project
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Posted - 2011.04.16 16:29:00 -
[64]
lolwtf
BACON made you unlog ?
Sounds funny, really ... and totally idiotic.
No wonder the system got changed.
Tbh, Akira, i'd be really, really glad if this thread helps force CCP to rewrite the EULA,
altough there's no (sane) way EvE can have an EULA that forbids screenshots.
And, technically speaking, it's impossible to prevent ppl from doing it.
OCR seriously is a tough nut to crack.
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Mortania
Minmatar
Kinetic Cartel
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Posted - 2011.04.16 17:57:00 -
[65]
Eve-central is either against the EULA, and since it's been operating in the open for this long with no problems, I'm gonna say it's not.
Thus, gathering in-game data isn't against the EULA.
Also, processing that data into an easily digestible form that conveys an in-game advantage is also not against the EULA.
So long as your program doesn't automatically do something IN-game, like BACON did, then I don't see how it can be deemed against the EULA any more than eve-central is.
I think you can:
get screens (automated that doesn't cause load on the game is probably a grey area)
automatically process those screens
open a website and display that information
ask for donations or advertising to keep the website open, i suspect you could even ask for in-game isk. Didn't the eve-maps guy get people to pay cash for gathered in-game data?
All of these things are things that eve-central does. If they come after you, they have to go after eve-central, and they haven't.
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2011.04.16 18:05:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Mortania
All of these things are things that eve-central does. If they come after you, they have to go after eve-central, and they haven't.
Flawed logic there. Keep in mind Eve Central only depends on output from individual players. This output is, nominally, only made when a player presses export. It only gives the export on one market item for one region. Furthermore, the output is not positively secure. There have been many times where people have "edited" the output to manipulate the market. And, again, I'm not saying what the OP plans to do is bad or against the EULA. I just think it needs repeating, over and over ad infinitum ad nauseum, that until you actually get word from CCP (and even then) you place yourself at risk. I've seen far too many people locked out of their account and using email to beg for access back. Truly told, in Eve it is NOT better to ask for forgiveness. Ask permission first or you gamble your account, period.
Wealth, howsoever got, in Eve makes
Lords of morons and gentlemen of thieves;
Aptitude and intellect are needless here;
'Tis impudence and money that grants fame. |
Solstice Project
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Posted - 2011.04.16 18:08:00 -
[67]
Both of you are absolutely right in their own ways.
Thanks for your comments. :)
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Kengutsi Akira
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Posted - 2011.04.16 18:09:00 -
[68]
lol if screen shotting is illegal they need to ban the advertising guys
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"You know, my foot oughta vandilize your ass" |
Solstice Project
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Posted - 2011.04.16 18:13:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Kengutsi Akira
lol if screen shotting is illegal they need to ban the advertising guys
oooohhhhhhhhh i can't resist ....
YES !!! BAN EM !!! BAN EM ALL !!!
MAKE EVE A SAFE PLACE ALREADY !!!!
LET THE CAREBEARS TAKE OVER !!!!!
AND THEN BAN THEM TOO FOR DOING REPETITIVE STUFF ALL DAY LONG !!
CAREBEARS ARE BOTS DISGUISED AS HUMANS !!!
OMG HUMAN BOTS !!!!!!!
BAN THEM I SAY !!!!!
...
wow ... i needed that. ^^
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Inairin
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Posted - 2011.04.16 20:23:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Inairin on 16/04/2011 20:25:01
A long while ago I actually asked a GM about this. The answer was that as long as there is no input/commands to the game it's okay to do. For those arguing about screenshot being input: it shouldn't be consider as such as I could use a webcam to get a feed or simply use some adapter that hijacks the signal over the DVI cable to read the relevant information.
As for the idea, why stop at your own database? Give the program to everyone in your corp and have it send the data to a server, giving you a realtime strategic overview of multiple systems, you could even have it fetch the overview window and do other image recognition to allow a FC to call the shots without even being logged into the game. Give enough people willing to cooperate and eve could be played as an RTS, either via voice, or if someone ambitious bothers to write some code that draws the data feed into a isometric classic RTS overview with klickable commands and hotkeys which in turns draws these instructions into a GUI overlay for the individual pilot/client.
All done without directly sending any commands to the eve-application itself.
Now send me all your isk for taking part of my awsome intellectual property
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Solstice Project
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Posted - 2011.04.16 21:13:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Inairin
pure awesomeness
wow, nice. :)
Actually, your idea is pretty great !
Too bad my corp only consists of three,
where one never is online
and i kind of miss the other one already. lol
(No, i will never ever join a corp not created by myself ^^)
Would you care to elaborate what exactly you were asking the GM ?
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Solstice Project
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Posted - 2011.04.16 21:18:00 -
[72]
Okay, Dear CCP Zym. closed my other thread about
the hardware overlays.
Basically, there's a concept that allows to
display stuff on the screen called hardware overlays
which make it impossible (or at least very, very hard) to make a screenshot.
(yeah i know i'm working against my own idea here ... it's ... a challenge ^^)
I was opening another thread because i hoped to get another discussion
about that going and to gather some more information ... but that didn't work out. ^^
Any ideas, suggestions about them ?
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