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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Illwill Bill
Nifelhem
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Posted - 2011.04.15 19:57:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Mortania eve-central.
Good point! Is there an official stance on the Eve-central uploader?
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist Revenge is a dish best served with auto-cannons.
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Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation Frontline Assembly Point
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Posted - 2011.04.15 20:03:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Illwill Bill It's not just about using a "macro"; the real issue about automating gameplay and having a program playing a game for you.
As an example, I have my keyboard automate a few key sequences for me. This doesn't automate any game play at all, and it doesn't give any advantage compared to other players; it simply saves my wrists from some additional strain. According to previous statements by CCP, this is allowed. ...
It is already a macro. CCP needs to draw the line somewhere and the EULA is clear about it.
It may not be the smartest macro, but you are also not the smartest cheater. What you do however is described by the EULA as not allowed. You are only a fool when you believe that saving your wrists is a valid argument. Any macro or bot will save your wrists ... --
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Kuronaga
Kantian Principle
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Posted - 2011.04.15 20:22:00 -
[33]
Well god forbid a player does something on his own to create an advantage!
That's just downright insanity, I thought we were all aspiring to be on a completely level playing field all of the time, amirite?
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Vmir Gallahasen
Gallente United Mining And Distribution
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Posted - 2011.04.15 20:36:00 -
[34]
It's amazing how far people will go to try and justify their cheating.
Originally by: Solstice Project First of all, I believe by definition it's not a macro.
--- Keyboard macros and mouse macros allow short sequences of keystrokes and mouse actions to be transformed into other, usually more time-consuming, sequences of keystrokes and mouse actions. In this way, frequently-used or repetitive sequences of keystrokes and mouse movements can be automated. --- (Source: Wikipedia)
But didn't you say earlier:
Originally by: Solstice Project My program would just take a screenshot regularly (which can't be illegal), scan the names in local (window blown up on screen, no scrolling involved) and save that to a database (*cough* textfile ^^), including the time he spends in the system and how often he visits it.
It's pretty much exactly a macro. Instead of reading names in local, writing them down and tracking them manually by yourself which consists of several hundred keypresses, this program runs and does it all for you
Originally by: Solstice Project Furthermore, as it would only take screenshots and use the bitmap-data, without ever touching the eve-client, keyboard- or mouse-handlers, I am in no way automating gameplay.
Except for the part where you're entirely automating a process that otherwise would require you to put in effort at the computer right?
The most hilarious part is that I think some deep part of you recognizes that this is against the rules. Look here:
Originally by: Solstice Project What i DON'T want to do is sit cloaked in space with a fullscreen dscan-window and have my program press SCAN regularly and to OCR that ... because THAT would be illegal. (I report EVERYBODY who i encounter who does stuff that's against EULA)
What exactly is the difference between taking a screenshot of a fullscreen dscan-window, using OCR to read names off it, etc and taking a screenshot of a fullscreen local window, using OCR to read names off it, etc? According to your own post, if you knew you were using your program you'd have to report yourself
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Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation Frontline Assembly Point
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Posted - 2011.04.15 21:28:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Vmir Gallahasen
Originally by: Solstice Project What i DON'T want to do is sit cloaked in space with a fullscreen dscan-window and have my program press SCAN regularly and to OCR that ... because THAT would be illegal. (I report EVERYBODY who i encounter who does stuff that's against EULA)
What exactly is the difference between taking a screenshot of a fullscreen dscan-window, using OCR to read names off it, etc and taking a screenshot of a fullscreen local window, using OCR to read names off it, etc? According to your own post, if you knew you were using your program you'd have to report yourself
The difference is that the d-scan does not automatically repeat itself.
I believe that he can take as many screenshots as he likes and then do whatever he wants with them. One point the EULA emphasizes on is the automation of the game play.
The EULA however not only forbids the use of macros, but it also forbids increased network and CPU load on the server side. To be technical, if he used a macro to run d-scan repeatedly and this would not already break the rule regarding macros and the automation of game play (i.e. acquiring of data), would he cause an increased server load as well, and thereby break a different rule of the agreement.
As long as he takes screenshots, or simply creates a video recording should he not have a problem. If he then feeds the video into some OCR software and makes the data available as a web service should this still not be a problem. It does however depend on what he records. Recording of mails and chat channels will interfere with players' privacy. I do not know the EULA in all its details.
Again, it is better to ask a GM before you do anything half- or fully automatic. --
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Lost Greybeard
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Posted - 2011.04.15 21:39:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Alotta Baggage
GM Horse has always been very good about solving my petitions, maybe he just hates you because you never give him sugar cubes
He warps across the stargates, the thoroughbred of GiM! He just read the petition that you fools. sent. him! It needs some arbitration, so let him help you win: A macro wrote a fifth of gin the EULA done been broke a-gin GiM Horse! (GiM Horse!) GiM Horse! (He's GiM!)
(Futilely ducks the yellow-text hammer.) ---
If you outlaw tautologies, only outlaws will have tautologies. ~Anonymous |
Illwill Bill
Nifelhem
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Posted - 2011.04.15 21:42:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Illwill Bill on 15/04/2011 21:44:38
Originally by: Whitehound
It is already a macro. CCP needs to draw the line somewhere and the EULA is clear about it.
It may not be the smartest macro, but you are also not the smartest cheater. What you do however is described by the EULA as not allowed. You are only a fool when you believe that saving your wrists is a valid argument. Any macro or bot will save your wrists ...
Linkage
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist Revenge is a dish best served with auto-cannons.
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Vmir Gallahasen
Gallente United Mining And Distribution
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Posted - 2011.04.15 21:43:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Whitehound I believe that he can take as many screenshots as he likes and then do whatever he wants with them. One point the EULA emphasizes on is the automation of the game play.
And a program that enters data into a database for you doesn't count as automation? You might narrowly escape the automation rule if you required an actual human to press the screenshot button every time, but if there's no human involvement at all in gathering data then it's automation
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Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation Frontline Assembly Point
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Posted - 2011.04.15 21:50:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Whitehound on 15/04/2011 21:50:25
Originally by: Vmir Gallahasen And a program that enters data into a database for you doesn't count as automation?
A car that drives down a road is an automation. The point you fail to see is the purpose of the automation. --
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Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation Frontline Assembly Point
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Posted - 2011.04.15 21:56:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Illwill Bill Linkage
The G15 is an exception. It does not allow for everyone to suddenly use macros, because one single devices that is know to a GM has been sanctioned. Might be the next model (maybe the G16 or whatever) allows for further features and is already not allowed any more. --
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Mortania
Minmatar Kinetic Cartel Shadow of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2011.04.15 21:58:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Whitehound
As long as he takes screenshots, or simply creates a video recording should he not have a problem. If he then feeds the video into some OCR software and makes the data available as a web service should this still not be a problem.
This is the line I would ride. It appears to be why things like eve-central and dotlan are ok.
Automatic gathering of data, as long as it doesn't cause load, shouldn't be a problem. Automatic USE of data is where you become a bot.
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Illwill Bill
Nifelhem
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Posted - 2011.04.15 22:09:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Illwill Bill on 15/04/2011 22:13:26
Originally by: Whitehound Edited by: Whitehound on 15/04/2011 21:58:54
Originally by: Illwill Bill Linkage
The G15 is or was an exception. The link is then from the year 2007. It does not allow for everyone to suddenly use macros, because one single device that is know to a GM has been sanctioned. Might be the next model (maybe the G16 or whatever) allows for further features and is already not allowed any more. It is even possible that another GM disallowed the G15 in the meantime.
Good thing I have a G15, then.
Edit: Edit posts a lot?
I've had that G15 since 2007, and I verified I'm allowed to use it that way back then. I will continue using it that way until a CCP representative tells me their policy has changed.
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist Revenge is a dish best served with auto-cannons.
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Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation Frontline Assembly Point
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Posted - 2011.04.15 22:15:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Illwill Bill Good thing I have a G15, then.
I am only warning you. If you think it is worth risking your account for the sake of having an argument then you sure are dumb. --
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Liquldsteel
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Posted - 2011.04.15 22:43:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Alotta Baggage
Originally by: northwesten
Originally by: CCP Navigator As Shar Tegral has stated, The EULA gets unhappy when third party programs of this nature are used.
The best advice, before you use any third party tool, is to submit a petition under 'EULA and terms of service' and let a GM investigate.
I would like to add you want this to go to the senior GM for the info. Some gm's don't have a clue and give you wrong information like GM Horse did twice...
GM Horse has always been very good about solving my petitions, maybe he just hates you because you never give him sugar cubes
Looks more like a Hermaphrodite.
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Barakkus
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Posted - 2011.04.15 23:17:00 -
[45]
Anyone remember Jita-Cam from last year? Same thing imo. - - [SERVICE] Corp Standings For POS anchoring
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Solstice Project
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Posted - 2011.04.16 10:04:00 -
[46]
wow, second page already. O_o
If i were trolling, i'd get a 10/10 for that. lol
But seriously ...
... it seems that ... ... if i avoid the automatic screenshotting ... ... and just do it manually ... ... and hook the program to the clipboard (nothing illegal there) ...
... i'm totally in safe harbour.
No one can prevent me from using the bitmap for whatever i want. That would be like saying i'm not allowed to photoshop the screenshot, which obviously is ridiculous.
Of course, i still use a program to gather data, but that's (altough some believe it's unfair) totally legal. It's only unfair because other ppl can't code, which is ... not my fault. (OMG HE HAZ FAR MOR SKILLPOINTS THAN ME THATS UNFAIRZ!!!!!)
Seems to be the "final round" now. The removal of the automatic screenshotting seems to erradicate any legal issues, as far as i see it.
Any more oppinions on the change ?
(btw ... thx for posting to all of you!)
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2011.04.16 10:13:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Solstice Project Any more oppinions on the change ?
I'm off the opinion that you are going to get yourself butthurt when someone shoves the banhammer up your bum. I'll try to use single syllables: Write mail to GM's. Ask GM's. Wait for GM speak. Don't talk on forums. Damn, had to use two syllables at the end there. Letting yourself be guided by the opinions of the forums is like asking to be tossed into a jail cell with a 6'8" 450 pounder named Bubba whose first words to you are, "You are my little puppy now."
Wealth, howsoever got, in Eve makes Lords of morons and gentlemen of thieves; Aptitude and intellect are needless here; 'Tis impudence and money that grants fame. |
Nuniki
Percussive Diplomacy
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Posted - 2011.04.16 10:53:00 -
[48]
There's no way for them to tell if you used a script to press the screenshot key or if you actually hit it yourself, unless of course they come to your house and watch you play EVE everyday. After that point, what you do with the data (screenshot) you gathered is 100% your own business. You can print them out and jerk it to them if you really wanted to, it's not for CCP to decide what you use your computer for.
Basically, the only thing they might try to moderate is you taking a screenshot, which they can't actually do. Nor can someone flying by see that you're taking screenshots, so it's not even reportable.
Game point.
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Krud Rurssel
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Posted - 2011.04.16 11:09:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Krud Rurssel on 16/04/2011 11:12:04
Originally by: Whitehound
Originally by: Illwill Bill Good thing I have a G15, then.
I am only warning you. If you think it is worth risking your account for the sake of having an argument then you sure are dumb.
G15 keyboards are perfectly legal. Please shut up.
It is also possible to use a programme called 'auto hot key' to set up macros for firing guns, scram, web etc on a standard keyboard.
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Patient 2428190
DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School
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Posted - 2011.04.16 11:13:00 -
[50]
I'd file multiple petitions and escalate as many as possible.
I don't think anybody in CCP's GM department communicates with each other, so you want to get as many takes on the situation before you go along with it, or you will get the OK and then find yourself banned in the near future. ...Then when you stopped to think about it. All you really said was Lalala. |
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Nuniki
Percussive Diplomacy
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Posted - 2011.04.16 11:21:00 -
[51]
My actual advice on this subject? Let this thread die, don't open any petitions. I can guarantee you there are many people who currently do something similar to this if not exactly the same thing. It's easy to do and doesn't break the EULA in any way shape or form. It does not automate game play, period. Even if you 'automate' taking a screenshot, everything beyond that point is 100% outside of the game, and thus outside of CCP 'jurisdiction'.
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Solstice Project
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Posted - 2011.04.16 11:42:00 -
[52]
Again, i am posting this because i don't have anything to hide and am curious about your oppinions on the topic.
Nuniki pretty much says it all actually. As i do not want to get banned for whatever reason, if i write it, i'll just screenshot manually. Altough i know there's no way to notice for anybody, i feel more comfortable this way.
Also ... petitioning gives me a creepy feeling, because there's too many oppinions and i don't want to **** anybody off for letting them escalate the petition or doing it multiple times.
I do not have trust in GMs to be honest, (probably because i can't stand obeying authority) altough they always did great work when i petitioned something! It's nothing personal.
Thank you all for your advises, oppinions and some trollings too, which i simply didn't respond too. ^^
*closed*
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Shawnm339
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Posted - 2011.04.16 11:42:00 -
[53]
As someone who's used data mining in poker to learn more about an opponent (Poker Office and Poker Tracker the 2 most popular) how is this different?
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Eclorc
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Posted - 2011.04.16 12:40:00 -
[54]
My two pence worth:
Screen capture cannot be made illegal, FRAPS for example. The grey area is the further processing of those screen caps by the same program and generating other data from that.
Once a screenshot is on your drive you can use whatever you want to do whatever you want with it, be that MkI eyeball or automated processing.
The obvious solution would be to split the screen cap part off from the processing side, screen cap app takes shots and saves to a drop-box directory. Second process (isolated from the screen cap one) then scans directory for new images and then processes them for whatever purpose you can imagine. This cannot be construed or argued as being against EULA without banning everyone that has ever used FRAPS... |
Sullen Skoung
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Posted - 2011.04.16 13:03:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Sullen Skoung on 16/04/2011 13:05:40
Originally by: N'tek alar That said, If you really want to know if it'd be allowed or not, You should probably file a petition and ask the GMs, not post on the forums :P
Or invoke the name of "security guy" Sreegs an see if he'll comment
Given that security is his job an all lol
Unless this isnt his department too
-------- Dammit, they killed the post where Sreegs says personal attacks are against the rules. I wanted to lol at him for that |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.04.16 13:04:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Mortania
Originally by: Illwill Bill
Originally by: Mortania By this logic, it should be illegal to use a calculator program as well, because it does the math for you and you could do the math yourself. So unfair advantage using that calculator!
Ok, I'll bite.
There's a calculator and a notepad in-game, and the game provides functionality for copying and pasting. CCP has made certain data available through the DB dump and through the API, and they encourage using and developing third-party appications around this and the IGB.
They have, however, not made data from the local channel exportable, and thus they do not encourage using and developing third-party applications around it.
Yeah, that's clearly the strawman. But market data isn't, but eve-central is around and is effectively doing the same thing, but for markets. Which CCP has also clearly avoided making easy to capture.
Yeah, it's so hard that you have to press "Export to file" to do it.
Auditing | Research | 3rd Party | Collateral Holding | EvE RL Charity |
Solstice Project
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Posted - 2011.04.16 13:49:00 -
[57]
Okay, this doesn't seem to end. ^^
Maybe he's referring to the cache-files, which i believe weren't that easy to use.
Anyhow, the comparison still remains flawed.
btw ... is there anything i can do so i don't have to relogin every time i post ? Is there a hidden "stay logged in"-checkbutton ?
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Mr Dilkington
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Posted - 2011.04.16 13:57:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Miilla Edited by: Miilla on 15/04/2011 15:10:39
If you are RESELLING this macro, I will report your game ID to the tax authorities :) Dont worry I will find out which country and CCP will have to cooporate with releasing your real identy to them for taxing :) Enjoy the pain.
hahahaha
good one.
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Kengutsi Akira
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Posted - 2011.04.16 14:53:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Solstice Project
No one can prevent me from using...
Noone can prevent you from using anything, you can get banned for using literally anything. They could ban you for this post if they wanted to cause of that "we reserve the right to ban anyone for anything" thing in the eula ------------------------------------ "You know, my foot oughta vandilize your ass" |
Reeno Coleman
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Posted - 2011.04.16 15:00:00 -
[60]
Use a camera//webcam to take 'screenshots'. So, basically build a program that is completely independent of eve, doesn't receive data, doesn't trigger any functions, and you're safe.
You can even have it run on a different computer.
That's like having a friend sitting beside you, taking notes and screaming at you when someone enters (:
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