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Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.04.27 03:58:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Tarigal Picking on this guy because he can't show proof that blasters are decent in the right hands is a bit short sighted.
I'm not picking on him. He's arguing that every argument I bring up is invalid because it's based on numbers rather than experience, then refusing to actually show any proof that experience suggests that the numbers are wrong.
Originally by: Tarigal
Just open battleclinic, check out the top 100 players, and you will see many examples of blaster boats that are used in a variety of situations successfully, even solo. Check out Sith, Prometheus, etc; the list goes on and on. Blaster boats can be fun from what I have heard, people engage them expecting they will suck.
When I look at the top guys on BC I see a lot more matari ships than I do gallente. Not that it matters, because if they're in the top 100 it's because they're either using a cheapass tactic to rack up easy kills, or are vastly more skilled than the average player, around whom balance issues should be decided. To quote something said quite often on the SCII forums: "You can't balance the game solely around the top tier of players, it screws over the other 90% of the playerbase." |
Xzar Fyrarr
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2011.04.27 05:05:00 -
[92]
I personally <3 the Ishkur. Just recently started flying one and love every single second of it. Main race is Minmatar and probably always will be Minmatar if only because I like the whole "In Rust We Trust" moto. Besides the point.
This discussion is no doubt interesting, if for lack of a better term. However my only problem is, it seems like a Lot of people have lost sight of the Game. Is the Game not meant to be played for fun? InB4"WinningAndEffectivenessIsFun"
The Hurricane always has and always will be my favorite Battlecruiser. Specc'd a long time ago to be able to fly the ship to it's fullest extent. I don't particularly Like battleships, but the Vindicator and Hyperion will always be, and always were my favorite battleships based on watching videos of them in combat, normally 1 versus 4 or more.
HACS - Don't have much experience other than dying in them, but I would like to experiment with a Deimos in the future. It looks fun. Granted the target selection will probably be much lower than that of a Vagabond or Zealot or Cynabal, it still looks Fun.
And yes, I do not know how to fly any of the ships I have the skills to fly well at all. Will admit to that. The only 2 ships in the game I have any remote confidence in are the Hurricane and the Ishkur [gaining loads of confidence with this ship via duels/videos. Love this frigate]
Anywho, TL:DR - Whats more important, having fun or degrading in every possible way a certain race that shall not be named ships? Some of the post look more like "you fail at life if you fly that ship, you nerd." post instead of "interesting choice. suit yourself. etc." post. I'm assuming the latter.
------------------------------------------------ One Cannot Fully Appreciate Peace Until They Have Experienced True Pain. -------------------------------------------------
- Xzar Fyrarr ; |
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.04.27 06:03:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Xzar Fyrarr Anywho, TL:DR - Whats more important, having fun or degrading in every possible way a certain race that shall not be named ships? Some of the post look more like "you fail at life if you fly that ship, you nerd." post instead of "interesting choice. suit yourself. etc." post. I'm assuming the latter.
The problem is that blasters do not work as advertised. I personally love the idea behind blasters; facemelting DPS that requires proper planning/skill to actually apply. The idea that if you manage to fly the ships just right, the other ship will melt. But that's not how blasters work. In practice, it's more along the lines of: If you fly your ship just right (assuming the other guy doesn't screw up) you will win, but just barely. Compare this to the other races, who are more akin (when facing a blaster boat) to: If you fly your ship properly, the other guy won't even be able to touch you, and you start to see the problem. |
Debrie
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Posted - 2011.04.27 06:23:00 -
[94]
Edited by: Debrie on 27/04/2011 06:24:34
ehm , more like the skill and cunning to get into optimal range to do pretty much identical dps , to other nations "pointblank" weapon systems (that tear u up from 2-3 times your range)
Ive fit a Domi with a full rack of nuetrons (largest bs size blasters available) , then the same Domi set up with a full rack of dual 250 rails (smallest BS size available) , between 12-16 km's THE RAILS outdamage the blasters
fine fine blasters are for in close only , but wait Im missing nearly everything orbiting me including BS's
so I have the potential to do nearly identical damage as other nations pointblank systems but generally miss because of failtracking inside its optimal .... , off to remount my dual 250 rails to make nuetrons look like junk
ps , if you cant tell , I agree Blasters need more tracking and more damage
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Leisen
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Posted - 2011.05.18 07:08:00 -
[95]
Originally by: FutureTroll5000 ...and let us say that suddenly blasters were on par with projectiles.. then all you have is Gallente slowness.
No one can complain about slowness till they've flown a Rokh. A trimarked dual 1600 plated Mega is faster than a Rokh. Gallente slowness is a myth.
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Ephiel
Gallente Hello Kitty Space Marines Ewoks
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Posted - 2011.05.18 17:57:00 -
[96]
Your right the Rokh is a hell slower then a Mega. But from the pure concept of the Ships the Rokh is designed as extreme Long Range Sniper. Same like moa/eagle and ferox. So it doasnt need to be fast. The Design of these ships is a High Resistance Shildbuffer Ship with realy long range. and basis in their lines. Well since Railguns are even more ****ed up then blasters and ranged fleet fights don't exist anymore thanks to more than easy scan probing the whole caldari hybrids don't work anymore. So fix hybrids and not just blasters. Make Gallente the well known shortrange blaster ships and caldari hybrids the long range sniper ships.
How about give Railguns a new meaning. Make them to penetrate shields and do some small amout of break through dmg in shields or structure. At leasts Railguns from the sense we all know are Weapons fireing small projectiles at ultra high speed. Why not let them penetrate the top defence layer of a ship? So keep the dmg and keep nearly the stats but suddenly railguns have a bit of uniqe advantage. the dont do big dmg or big alpha dmg but can be a anojing enemy for fleet specialised in just one type of logistic and tank. Just a little aproach for railguns that could work on both gallente and caldari.
For blasters. I keep thinking that the Weapon itself is OK. The main issu is to get in range and not being kited to death. So my suggestion would be to get some speed/agility bonus of some kind or even better a bonus dedicated to scram range. Its atleast the gallente way if you keep the arazu in mind.
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Traejun DiSanctis
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.05.18 18:04:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Ephiel Your right the Rokh is a hell slower then a Mega. But from the pure concept of the Ships the Rokh is designed as extreme Long Range Sniper. Same like moa/eagle and ferox. So it doasnt need to be fast. The Design of these ships is a High Resistance Shildbuffer Ship with realy long range. and basis in their lines. Well since Railguns are even more ****ed up then blasters and ranged fleet fights don't exist anymore thanks to more than easy scan probing the whole caldari hybrids don't work anymore. So fix hybrids and not just blasters. Make Gallente the well known shortrange blaster ships and caldari hybrids the long range sniper ships.
How about give Railguns a new meaning. Make them to penetrate shields and do some small amout of break through dmg in shields or structure. At leasts Railguns from the sense we all know are Weapons fireing small projectiles at ultra high speed. Why not let them penetrate the top defence layer of a ship? So keep the dmg and keep nearly the stats but suddenly railguns have a bit of uniqe advantage. the dont do big dmg or big alpha dmg but can be a anojing enemy for fleet specialised in just one type of logistic and tank. Just a little aproach for railguns that could work on both gallente and caldari.
For blasters. I keep thinking that the Weapon itself is OK. The main issu is to get in range and not being kited to death. So my suggestion would be to get some speed/agility bonus of some kind or even better a bonus dedicated to scram range. Its atleast the gallente way if you keep the arazu in mind.
You are right in your comparison - the Rokh and Mega are design to fight in completely opposite ways - sniper vs. puncher. The Blasterokh is a reaction to how crappy rails are, the hull isn't really designed to fit blasters.
I also like where your head is at with trying to fix lolrails. I don't think the "penetration" scheme is going to work b/c that would be OP. It would force people to both armor and shield tank since shots were penetrating through the first layer of defense. Basically, over a long timeline, you could see a rail-fit ship destroy a target with full shields/armor.
The PvP ramifications would be serious.
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Elesaar
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2011.05.18 23:00:00 -
[98]
Blasters do the most dps, therefor please do not give them the most range as well XD
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Kelio Rift
Caldari FREE GATES HUN Reloaded
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Posted - 2011.05.19 02:00:00 -
[99]
Well... Blasters DPS suck? Range also sux?
http://rax.hunreloaded.hu/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=60547
Tracking is an issue? At extremely close ranges?
http://rax.hunreloaded.hu/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=60548
How could these be? Feel free to chew on them... "In a living body, a dead, senseless soul floats, waiting for death, yet cannot laugh..." |
Nuniki
Percussive Diplomacy
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Posted - 2011.05.19 02:32:00 -
[100]
It's not the guns, it's the ships. Blasters are fine. Blaster boats are BROKEN piles of junk.
The ships that depend on blasters (close range) should be able to get INTO close range or at the very least hold someone easily in close range (Bonused webs back to 90%. Remember there wasn't as big of a 'blaster problem' before the web nerf).
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Kelio Rift
Caldari FREE GATES HUN Reloaded
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Posted - 2011.05.19 02:55:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Nuniki It's not the guns, it's the ships. Blasters are fine. Blaster boats are BROKEN piles of junk.
You know that I've completely opposed that with my two mails above?
"In a living body, a dead, senseless soul floats, waiting for death, yet cannot laugh..." |
Debrie
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Posted - 2011.05.19 04:45:00 -
[102]
ya 2 mails of you blasting your staionery alt , really prove hybrids are great , thnx for your input
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Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.05.19 05:41:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Kelio Rift
Originally by: Nuniki It's not the guns, it's the ships. Blasters are fine. Blaster boats are BROKEN piles of junk.
You know that I've completely opposed that with my two mails above?
I posted what, 4? 5? when I gave my example of how awesome the helios is as a pvp ship. Come back with a few more, maybe a solo mail or 2 against something that isn't sporting t1 guns and we can talk about how amazing you think blasters are. |
The Djego
Minmatar Hellequin Inc.
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Posted - 2011.05.19 06:47:00 -
[104]
Edited by: The Djego on 19/05/2011 06:48:45
Originally by: Kelio Rift Well... Blasters DPS suck? Range also sux?
http://rax.hunreloaded.hu/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=60547
Tracking is an issue? At extremely close ranges?
http://rax.hunreloaded.hu/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=60548
How could these be? Feel free to chew on them...
Hey man, I show you what people fly today for DPS if you want a damage dealer in the gang:
Linkage
And yes this Pest pilot is fully maxed for the mega to and flown both ships for ages in max gank setups(1350 pest and 1600 DPS mega)as solo ships and small gang gank machines. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
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Kelio Rift
Caldari FREE GATES HUN Reloaded
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Posted - 2011.05.19 07:10:00 -
[105]
T1 guns fitted or not, that's not my problem. People who can't make blasters work is also not my problem. "In a living body, a dead, senseless soul floats, waiting for death, yet cannot laugh..." |
The Djego
Minmatar Hellequin Inc.
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Posted - 2011.05.19 07:30:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Kelio Rift T1 guns fitted or not, that's not my problem. People who can't make blasters work is also not my problem.
I actually would love to fly the mega again if it would be the damage dealer that it was 2.5 years ago, but today there is no such thing like "make blasters work".
Nobody that actually was good with the mega at gank would fly the ship today, for the simple reason that if you can make a mega work you can pawn people with a other ships a lot more effective and if you bring a blaster ship for dps you actually fly the wrong hull in modern pvp engagements. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
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Kelio Rift
Caldari FREE GATES HUN Reloaded
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Posted - 2011.05.19 07:36:00 -
[107]
Originally by: The Djego modern pvp engagements.
Damn, I'm old... And I'm stuck with old fashioned stuff... But I kinda like it... "In a living body, a dead, senseless soul floats, waiting for death, yet cannot laugh..." |
The Djego
Minmatar Hellequin Inc.
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Posted - 2011.05.19 07:56:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Kelio Rift
Originally by: The Djego modern pvp engagements.
Damn, I'm old... And I'm stuck with old fashioned stuff... But I kinda like it...
Damn now I feel old to. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
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Naomi Knight
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.05.19 07:58:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Debrie ya 2 mails of you blasting your staionery alt , really prove hybrids are great , thnx for your input
whooa do you think it doesnt prove that hybrids are awesome ?:O it fully convinced me that only 99% of the players sux not the ship/weapon itself , as you can see in the killmails both blaster ships and blasters are very viable choices for everyday pvp
btw how the hell did mega outdmg fellow poor matar ships by that much? maybe ccp should think about nerfing those blasters to be in line with matar dps
+1 for nerfing blasters they are way too good for pvp
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Kelio Rift
Caldari FREE GATES HUN Reloaded
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Posted - 2011.05.19 08:12:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Naomi Knight
btw how the hell did mega outdmg fellow poor matar ships by that much?
Thermo Dynamics 5 + Your Standard 3 Magstab Neutron fit "In a living body, a dead, senseless soul floats, waiting for death, yet cannot laugh..." |
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Sable Schroedinger
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2011.05.19 08:42:00 -
[111]
I think the thing that turned me against blasters ultimately was repeated experiments with Titan hot drops. I'm not talking one or two, I'm talking a fair few over a number of months (we had a new toy and the law of TOY states you just have to play with them!).
ThereÆs no real pilot skill needed in this bit of silliness (so we can exclude that), its just pop through a portal, dropping you about 2k from a scrammed and webbed target, lock and fire and try to kill it before it can dock or whatever.
Now at the beginning, I would have expected in this scenario a gank fit Neutron Mega should top the table comfortably every time, its pretty much the perfect scenario for it. However, time and again this wasnÆt the case. Yes, MegaÆs were invariably in the top end of damage dealers, but often they were not top and in the case where they were it was not by much (Amrrian ships did exceptionally well in these drops). This pretty much convinced me that the DPS advantage of blasters was not as significant (or even real) as is believed. This most likely comes from the natively high Kin/therm (mostly Kin) resists of most ships (excluding T2 Mini shield tankers û those ships that kite blasters for fun so have a greater resist to the weapon type) negating the on paper DPS and also based on a significant amount of the famed DPS of ships like the mega coming from drones (which are a pain to launch and get on the target in titan hot drops) not the guns.
So, are blasters high DPS when they get into their ideal range? Most certainly. Are they face meltingly better than longer range weapons (pulse lasers for example)? Apparently not.
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SF Recruiting |
Kelio Rift
Caldari FREE GATES HUN Reloaded
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Posted - 2011.05.19 10:27:00 -
[112]
Edited by: Kelio Rift on 19/05/2011 10:29:50
Originally by: Sable Schroedinger
So, are blasters high DPS when they get into their ideal range? Most certainly. Are they face meltingly better than longer range weapons (pulse lasers for example)? Apparently not.
Well, not face melting better, but better than the afore mentioned Lazorz. Here's a scenario where everyone had the same chances. My ship was not fit for ultimate gank, nor any damage mods. Not even neutrons, just ions packed with some electrons (PG issues... oh well). See the first battleship after the mommies and dreads.
http://rax.hunreloaded.hu/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=59514 "In a living body, a dead, senseless soul floats, waiting for death, yet cannot laugh..." |
Swynet
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Posted - 2011.05.19 10:40:00 -
[113]
There are so many factors at each and every engagement, most of them negate blaster boats and only a few can make you succeed.
MY Gallente toon has "almost" perfect hybrid skills and I don't pretend being master on using them but once you've used a cane, even armour tanked local rep, you leave your Mega at the hangar not only for the cost (I build my own ships/rigs and all meta4 comes from my missions stock so it's not expensive).
The fight circumstances are determinative for the blaster mega, his window of succeeding his goal is very tight while the cane will do almost the same dps (most KM's the difference is very small).
When an higher tier BC Minie is overall better than the 2nd tiers Gallente BS for 1/4th of it's price, skill training, it's dumb to use something else but there's fundamentally something wrong either in the concept either in the game mechanics.
Solutions? - nerf other ships or mechanics is not a good solution, the simple fact of improving the survivability and dmg application of blaster hulls will negate a part of the overall advantage in every situation of other weapons or hulls, it's a better choice imho. Now how to do this when scorch pulses and auto canons fill the same job are in the same idea concept of close range weapons and how make them different? -not impossible but the one who will bring the final solution either is a total fool or a genius.
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kyrv
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Posted - 2011.05.19 14:05:00 -
[114]
There still op you just like everyone else have to buy faction and implants and then actually use vindicator instead.
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Sable Schroedinger
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2011.05.19 14:06:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Kelio Rift Edited by: Kelio Rift on 19/05/2011 10:29:50 Well, not face melting better, but better than the afore mentioned Lazorz. Here's a scenario where everyone had the same chances. My ship was not fit for ultimate gank, nor any damage mods. Not even neutrons, just ions packed with some electrons (PG issues... oh well). See the first battleship after the mommies and dreads.
http://rax.hunreloaded.hu/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=59514
Please tell me you're not using the fact that a pirate BS out damaged 3 normal amarrian BSs (who in turn out damaged a normal mega) as justification for blasters being OK? --------------------------------------------
SF Recruiting |
Swynet
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Posted - 2011.05.19 14:57:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Kelio Rift http://rax.hunreloaded.hu/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=59514
1st Bs faction pirate serpentis
2nd Bs Tiers 3 Tech 1 Amarr Bs
Dps diff between both: 10K +/-
Engagement conditions for each: Unknown
Engagement time/dps for each: Unknown
I'd like to see what a Machariel or Bhaalgorn are capable of with same kind of gank fit and under strict same conditions fight time/op distace. I already know the answer but would be fun to see it.
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Kelio Rift
Caldari FREE GATES HUN Reloaded
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Posted - 2011.05.19 16:32:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Swynet
I'd like to see what a Machariel or Bhaalgorn are capable of with same kind of gank fit and under strict same conditions fight time/op distace. I already know the answer but would be fun to see it.
Nothing. They leave behind like every other. Accept the fact that 99% of the community in eve can't and never will be able to handle blasters. If you can't handle them, go fly something else, and stop trying to convince people that blasters are bad.
As of conditions, I told you it was same chances for everyone. Btw, out damaging a Rail mega is not a difficult thing. "In a living body, a dead, senseless soul floats, waiting for death, yet cannot laugh..." |
Sable Schroedinger
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2011.05.19 18:32:00 -
[118]
since his weapon showing was a Garde II, how were we meant to know that? --------------------------------------------
SF Recruiting |
Kelio Rift
Caldari FREE GATES HUN Reloaded
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Posted - 2011.05.19 19:35:00 -
[119]
Now why the hell would a blaster fitted close range ship use Setries? "In a living body, a dead, senseless soul floats, waiting for death, yet cannot laugh..." |
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.05.19 20:51:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Kelio Rift
Well, not face melting better, but better than the afore mentioned Lazorz. Here's a scenario where everyone had the same chances. My ship was not fit for ultimate gank, nor any damage mods. Not even neutrons, just ions packed with some electrons (PG issues... oh well). See the first battleship after the mommies and dreads.
Couple things wrong with this post: 1)The vindicator is a great ship. It is EXACTLY what most blaster ships SHOULD be; facemelting DPS at close range, and the ability to actually maintain that range (and without terribad tracking issues) in realistic circumstances. Even though it's not as good as the bhaal or mach for pvp it still has a legitimate niche in which it performs notably better than its other-racial counterparts.
2)You mention a rail mega, how do we know the amarrian BSs there aren't beam fit? (For an added treat, compare a megabeam abaddon vs a rail vindi for raw gun DPS)
3)You're comparing a faction BS to t1 BSs, on a target the size of a moon that sits perfectly still, completely ignoring the fact that had that been a regular megathron, you'd only be doing about 7-8% more raw DPS, which is pitiful for a ship that has so many problems wrt tracking and range. |
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