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FutureTroll5000	Posted - 2011.04.22 00:18:00 - [1] Would that not make Gallente ships OP? They have the most insane drone bays in the game, and let us say that suddenly blasters were on par with projectiles.. then all you have is Gallente slowness. Which would not mean a damn thing when you have projectile-like guns AND a trillion drones doing damage. I mean drones are generally considered negated at the blob level right? But all engagements non-blob, but they also would find have a ship-of-the-line spot in all blobs regardless.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.04.22 00:30:00 - [2] Originally by: FutureTroll5000 Would that not make Gallente ships OP? No. Then they wouldn't be fixed, now would they? Quote: They have the most insane drone bays in the game Not really. They have two ships with "insane drone bays" ù the Ishtar and the Dominix ù which are limited in other ways. Quote: let us say that suddenly blasters were on par with projectiles That's a rather arbitrary measurement of "fixed", isn't it? And what do you mean by "on par" in this case? Quote: Which would not mean a damn thing when you have projectile-like guns AND a trillion drones doing damage. No, just five drones. Just like any other ship in the game. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
baltec1	Posted - 2011.04.22 00:33:00 - [3] If blasters got "fixed" people would still whine about them because they don't like balls to the wall pvp blasters demand.
FutureTroll5000	Posted - 2011.04.22 00:48:00 - [4] Originally by: baltec1 If blasters got "fixed" people would still whine about them because they don't like balls to the wall pvp blasters demand. ah therein lies the crux. blaster fighting requires something that a blob will not cater to. not in the current state of game performance. they are truly fuct.
baltec1	Posted - 2011.04.22 01:09:00 - [5] Originally by: FutureTroll5000 Originally by: baltec1 If blasters got "fixed" people would still whine about them because they don't like balls to the wall pvp blasters demand. ah therein lies the crux. blaster fighting requires something that a blob will not cater to. not in the current state of game performance. they are truly fuct. Its kinda like cruise missiles for sniping. Yea they can do it but the blob needs that alpha now not in 10 seconds time so the raven gets shunned. Blasters are solo/small gang weapons which require experience, balls and madness. Beer may or may not help.
Fredfredbug4 Gallente	Posted - 2011.04.22 01:23:00 - [6] Blasters are fine apart from tracking issues. The real problem is the ships that you put them on. They are too slow to close in. An average PVPer would be able to determine that the gallente slow boat is trying to melt their face with blasters and follow up by kiting them to death.
baltec1	Posted - 2011.04.22 08:07:00 - [7] Originally by: Fredfredbug4 Blasters are fine apart from tracking issues. The real problem is the ships that you put them on. They are too slow to close in. An average PVPer would be able to determine that the gallente slow boat is trying to melt their face with blasters and follow up by kiting them to death. Thats why I fit all of my roaming blasterboats with a sheild buffer. A nano hype can get very fast and the thorax can out run most AF
Sir Drake	Posted - 2011.04.22 08:18:00 - [8] Originally by: baltec1 Thats why I fit all of my roaming blasterboats with a sheild buffer. A nano hype can get very fast and the thorax can out run most AF I know those shield buffer setups work but imho thats a bloody sad way to go for Gallente. -------------------------------------------------- They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance. Terry Pratchett
baltec1	Posted - 2011.04.22 08:32:00 - [9] Originally by: Sir Drake I know those shield buffer setups work but imho thats a bloody sad way to go for Gallente. It kinda makes sense. You don't get all that many mids for the buffer but you do get lots of lows for damage mods and tracking
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2011.04.22 10:03:00 - [10] Originally by: FutureTroll5000 Originally by: baltec1 If blasters got "fixed" people would still whine about them because they don't like balls to the wall pvp blasters demand. ah therein lies the crux. blaster fighting requires something that a blob will not cater to. not in the current state of game performance. they are truly fuct. Probably why they're taking so long to fix them - it's a real problem figuring out how. - Giving them more range would just make them kinetic/thermal autocannons. The game does not need a clone weapon. - Giving them more damage/tracking - still sub-par in fleets, but we'd suddenly see 2000dps Megathrons or something similarly ridiculous camping station undocks everywhere. _________________________________ ROCKET STATUS: FIX IN PROGRESS...
Trader20	Posted - 2011.04.22 23:07:00 - [11] Edited by: Trader20 on 22/04/2011 23:08:14 why dont they just add a "warp to blaster optimal range" option....oh wait they already have it
Trader20	Posted - 2011.04.22 23:14:00 - [12] Originally by: Fredfredbug4 Blasters are fine apart from tracking issues. The real problem is the ships that you put them on. They are too slow to close in. An average PVPer would be able to determine that the gallente slow boat is trying to melt their face with blasters and follow up by kiting them to death. So wats harder, kiting a ship trying to out track it hoping not to get webbed or td'd. Or mwd'in to a target, web it, and melt it? Why do ppl always whine about blaster tracking? Why would u kite using blasters? Just hit approach, mwd, web, and blast.
FutureTroll5000	Posted - 2011.04.22 23:22:00 - [13] Originally by: Trader20 So wats harder, kiting a ship trying to out track it hoping not to get webbed or td'd. Or mwd'in to a target, web it, and melt it? Why do ppl always whine about blaster tracking? Why would u kite using blasters? Just hit approach, mwd, web, and blast. That guy was talking about the blasterboat's opponent kiting him. But you did make a valid tactical point.
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate	Posted - 2011.04.23 02:21:00 - [14] Originally by: Trader20 Originally by: Fredfredbug4 Blasters are fine apart from tracking issues. The real problem is the ships that you put them on. They are too slow to close in. An average PVPer would be able to determine that the gallente slow boat is trying to melt their face with blasters and follow up by kiting them to death. So wats harder, kiting a ship trying to out track it hoping not to get webbed or td'd. Or mwd'in to a target, web it, and melt it? Why do ppl always whine about blaster tracking? Why would u kite using blasters? Just hit approach, mwd, web, and blast. Because you only have a <1km window in which you can apply full damage. MWD on top of something (say at like 10m) and you'll miss more than you hit even if he stays still. If he's moving you need to keep him at pretty much exactly your optimal, or you're not going to be getting much of that damage blasters are supposed to be good for. What's more is simply approaching a target means they track you just fine as well, and blasters actually don't have dps that's that great when compared to lasers. A pulse geddon only does ~8% less raw dps than a mega and has ~10% more ehp, IIRC the mega would theoretically still win because of resists in a 1v1, but it was a matter of less than 3 seconds. Given that blasters are really bad in fleet engagements, you'd think that they'd be notably better in a 1v1 situation. Unfortunately you'd be wrong.
baltec1	Posted - 2011.04.23 05:41:00 - [15] Originally by: Cambarus Because you only have a <1km window in which you can apply full damage. MWD on top of something (say at like 10m) and you'll miss more than you hit even if he stays still. If he's moving you need to keep him at pretty much exactly your optimal, or you're not going to be getting much of that damage blasters are supposed to be good for. What's more is simply approaching a target means they track you just fine as well, and blasters actually don't have dps that's that great when compared to lasers. A pulse geddon only does ~8% less raw dps than a mega and has ~10% more ehp, IIRC the mega would theoretically still win because of resists in a 1v1, but it was a matter of less than 3 seconds. Given that blasters are really bad in fleet engagements, you'd think that they'd be notably better in a 1v1 situation. Unfortunately you'd be wrong. This what happens in an EFT maths fight. In reality I find I have little problems out damaging my opponents.
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate	Posted - 2011.04.23 06:39:00 - [16] Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: Cambarus This what happens in an EFT maths fight. In reality I find I have little problems out damaging my opponents. Proof or stfu.
The Djego Minmatar Hellequin Inc.	Posted - 2011.04.23 06:53:00 - [17] Originally by: Cambarus Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: Cambarus This what happens in an EFT maths fight. In reality I find I have little problems out damaging my opponents. Proof or stfu. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
Aamrr	Posted - 2011.04.23 06:59:00 - [18] Originally by: The Djego Originally by: Cambarus Originally by: baltec1 This what happens in an EFT maths fight. In reality I find I have little problems out damaging my opponents. Proof or stfu.
Swynet	Posted - 2011.04.23 11:40:00 - [19] Edited by: Swynet on 23/04/2011 11:42:08 Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Probably why they're taking so long to fix them - it's a real problem figuring out how. /agree Quote: - Giving them more range would just make them kinetic/thermal autocannons. The game does not need a clone weapon. Rather use "auto-canons clones" in my hybrids ships than auto-canons that work better even if i loose my ships bonus. Quote: - Giving them more damage/tracking - still sub-par in fleets, but we'd suddenly see 2000dps Megathrons or something similarly ridiculous camping station undocks everywhere. There are already canes, abaddons, maels, vagas etc that fill that role, adding the mega to this kind of game would just make the mega a little bit more useful and fill his close combat role?
mama guru Gallente Thundercats RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2011.04.23 13:02:00 - [20] Edited by: mama guru on 23/04/2011 13:03:02 Blaster damage and range is FINE. DEAL WITH IT. What blaster SHIPS need is enough agility to outpreform minmatar ships but without the same top speed. What Blasters need is lower cap requirements aswell as higher tracking ontop of that. Blasters should in my opinion be like short range pulse lasers with improved tracking. (low falloff and "high" optimal with short overall range and super high tracking) _________ EVE is like the "Fisherman's Friend" of MMOs. If it's too hard, you are too weak.
Von Kroll Caldari Kroll's Legion	Posted - 2011.04.23 13:07:00 - [21] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington [ Probably why they're taking so long to fix them - it's a real problem figuring out how. - Giving them more range would just make them kinetic/thermal autocannons. The game does not need a clone weapon. - Giving them more damage/tracking - still sub-par in fleets, but we'd suddenly see 2000dps Megathrons or something similarly ridiculous camping station undocks everywhere. Not to mention the impact on the Caldari gunboats. More range on blasters would seriously change the performance of the Harpy, Moa, Eagle, Ferox, and Rokh. The problem as I see it is that pulses have Scorch, ACs have Barrage, but null, except for on the Rokh, doesn't get you beyond scram range on most ships. If they changed the range of Null, the Gal ships would have more flexibility, but the Caldari gunboats would have Scorch-like range. Increase the damage, and the Gal boats become insta-slayers at optimal. The same problem exists for rail guns. Increase the damage to make the Caldari boats more potent, and the Gal railboats would have potentially unbalancing firepower. Scorch and the projectile buff really skewed the balance between the races, but the problem with hybrids in general seems to be the fact that two different races use them on ships with two different types of bonuses.
Daneel Trevize Black Viper Nomads	Posted - 2011.04.23 13:23:00 - [22] Edited by: Daneel Trevize on 23/04/2011 13:24:29 Ah but how to give the shortest range guns to the fastest ships (with webs as their bonused ewar to boot) without redefining 2 races? What if Gal ships had insane agility? Not bext top speed to able to get motoring or do a 180 superfast. Kinda like Angels but better...
mama guru Gallente Thundercats RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2011.04.23 13:30:00 - [23] Originally by: Daneel Trevize Edited by: Daneel Trevize on 23/04/2011 13:24:29 Ah but how to give the shortest range guns to the fastest ships (with webs as their bonused ewar to boot) without redefining 2 races? What if Gal ships had insane agility? Not bext top speed to able to get motoring or do a 180 superfast. Kinda like Angels but better... See my post above. Anyone with experience in using blasters knows that the biggest problem in most fights is not getting in range it is to avoid overshooting the target and staying in range so you can do some damage. This problem will be solved by lowering the mass and improving agility slightly on the gallente blaster boats. If you ask me blasters should have a really hard time hitting outside scram range but they should have better tracking than autocannons to compensate. _________ EVE is like the "Fisherman's Friend" of MMOs. If it's too hard, you are too weak.
Scorpionidae	Posted - 2011.04.23 15:06:00 - [24] Wait theres somthing wrong with Blasters? Wow you learn somthing new every day. Scorpionidae
Von Kroll Caldari Kroll's Legion	Posted - 2011.04.23 15:17:00 - [25] Originally by: Daneel Trevize What if Gal ships had insane agility? Not bext top speed to able to get motoring or do a 180 superfast. Kinda like Angels but better... Could potentially screw up the aligning mechanics for warping?
NightmareX Dissident Aggressors Mordus Angels	Posted - 2011.04.23 15:28:00 - [26] IF blaster were suddenly fixed... Then my Vindicator would be one hell of an overpowered ship. It would make any Battleships to cry.
Kelio Rift Caldari FREE GATES HUN Reloaded	Posted - 2011.04.23 20:07:00 - [27] Originally by: NightmareX IF blaster were suddenly fixed... Then my Vindicator would be one hell of an overpowered ship. It would make any Battleships to cry. ^That... People would be crying all over the EVE unvierse to NERF blasters... Although, I don't know when people start to realize there is absolutely nothing wrong with blaster, now even with Void. The problem is with the ships. They are very slow, after the MWD nerf, I can't make my Vindi shine with 1300m/s MWD speed, overheated MWD gets it somewhere near there. Also the web nerf... Not slowing that much, but in trade it could web a bit further (Faction ones more further, not factoring overheat). And hell yeah, gallente ships have less armor then amarr, why aren't they faster and more agile? Now that altogether would make my Vindi a hell of a pain for those opposing it. "In a living body, a dead, senseless soul floats, waiting for death, yet cannot laugh..."
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.04.23 20:18:00 - [28] Originally by: Kelio Rift ^That... People would be crying all over the EVE unvierse to NERF blasters. No. They'd just ask for the Vindicator to be nerfed. It's about the only ship in the game that makes the current blasters work the way they should. Quote: I don't know when people start to realize there is absolutely nothing wrong with blaster, now even with Void. The problem is with the ships. No, the problem is also with blasters. Most notably their tracking (which isn't enough to cope with the ranges where blasters are used) and the very small edge in damage they get in relation to the rather large deficit in range. Quote: Also the web nerf. àiow: they have a problem with tracking. But the web nerf wasn't really it ù the real problem stems from the scrambler changes, which increased the tracking requirements by roughly 500%. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
baltec1	Posted - 2011.04.23 20:31:00 - [29] Originally by: Cambarus Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: Cambarus This what happens in an EFT maths fight. In reality I find I have little problems out damaging my opponents. Proof or stfu. I wouldnt use them if they didnt work.
Kelio Rift Caldari FREE GATES HUN Reloaded	Posted - 2011.04.23 20:39:00 - [30] Ok, let's see the situations... A faster ships is able to escape from your webs, it starts to kite you... Why the hell should you follow if you can never reach it? Change targets, or gtfo, or when they perma jam you, deagress and get out of the system, or dock up. Let's see the scenario when the target cannot escape your webs because you used a Scrambler, but it starts to orbit at a really close range. You have two options, either start approaching, or keep at range. If you approach, but your target wants to orbit on a certain range, your ships will get alligned on almost the same line, which reduces angular and transversal, which means your guns can track. Keeping at range also forces your ships to get alligned on almost the same line, same tracking, guaranteed hits. Only problem is with really small ships. If you are sitting in a blasterboat, don't do the mistake of sitting still. You have thrusters, propulsion, MWD/AB, you are MOBILE. Even if you get webbed to death, you can still turn your ship. That is why people cry about blasters need to be fixed, they can't control their ships. "In a living body, a dead, senseless soul floats, waiting for death, yet cannot laugh..."
Daneel Trevize Black Viper Nomads	Posted - 2011.04.23 21:12:00 - [31] Just how do you gtfo from a ship that's got you pointed, is faster than you (kiting doesn't mean they're restricted to only flying away), and you aren't hurting it nearly as much as it's hurting you?
Umega Solis Mensa	Posted - 2011.04.23 21:22:00 - [32] Originally by: Kelio Rift Ok, let's see the situations... A faster ships is able to escape from your webs, it starts to kite you... Why the hell should you follow if you can never reach it? Change targets, or gtfo, or when they perma jam you, deagress and get out of the system, or dock up. Let's see the scenario when the target cannot escape your webs because you used a Scrambler, but it starts to orbit at a really close range. You have two options, either start approaching, or keep at range. If you approach, but your target wants to orbit on a certain range, your ships will get alligned on almost the same line, which reduces angular and transversal, which means your guns can track. Keeping at range also forces your ships to get alligned on almost the same line, same tracking, guaranteed hits. Only problem is with really small ships. If you are sitting in a blasterboat, don't do the mistake of sitting still. You have thrusters, propulsion, MWD/AB, you are MOBILE. Even if you get webbed to death, you can still turn your ship. That is why people cry about blasters need to be fixed, they can't control their ships. I pretty much agree with this point that people have issues piloting the hybrid-ships effectively. Drakes n canes have a nice balance in their over all design, but the biggest thing about them that makes for their popularity imo.. is their just stupid easy to fly with effectiveness. Any idiot can grasp basic fits/game mechanics and make either cane or drake work well. I don't think the harbi/brutix/myrm fall into this catagory.. but all 3 are very capable and worthy ships in the right hands. All it takes is doing varies things to establish the right situation, when you think about it.. the fast blaster boats are considered top predator ships when in the right hands. Fast only makes the situation of ideal range easier.. there are other methods to get it in your favor other than simply 'approach target' and pray. This is where people fail.. but its a video game, and majority of people on an MMO can't admit their method is wrong, or simply too stupid to adapt.. and things should be adjusted to their way of thinking. ---------------------------------------- Treat the EVE markets like you are its Pimp.. it is your 'willing' employee to fondle n use n abuse as you please.
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate	Posted - 2011.04.23 21:55:00 - [33] Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: Cambarus Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: Cambarus This what happens in an EFT maths fight. In reality I find I have little problems out damaging my opponents. Proof or stfu. I wouldnt use them if they didnt work. In the last 3 months your most used ships are the hound, cane, and vengeance. If blasters are fine why AREN'T you using them? What's more is that you obviously fly with medium/large gangs (10-20ish seems to be the norm) so your effect on the fleet is minimal, and certainly not something you could get a reasonable measure from just by flying the ship (meaning you need to look at some sort of numbers to prove viability in these situations)
The Djego Minmatar Hellequin Inc.	Posted - 2011.04.23 23:19:00 - [34] Edited by: The Djego on 23/04/2011 23:26:50 Originally by: Umega All it takes is doing varies things to establish the right situation, when you think about it.. the fast blaster boats are considered top predator ships when in the right hands. Fast only makes the situation of ideal range easier.. there are other methods to get it in your favor other than simply 'approach target' and pray. This is where people fail.. but its a video game, and majority of people on an MMO can't admit their method is wrong, or simply too stupid to adapt.. and things should be adjusted to their way of thinking. The majority of the good players is also clever enough to don't use blaster ships since they are just bad. There is not a single reason to not use 50% more speed, double your range, increase your ability to actually project damage(by simply don't fly a ship that can't do it at his range), increase of utility, add the gtfo option and stop throwing a extra 50M of faction items on the hulls just because they can't be fitted with T2 reasonable well. Most blaster ships don't offer any good reason to get used by good players, I didn't fly one for ages since most of the hulls are just plain crap since 2.5 years now. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
VC General	Posted - 2011.04.24 02:51:00 - [35] One thing I rarely hear about blasters is that although they do more damage on paper, every ship at the least has its 2nd and 3rd strongest resists to Therm/Kin, and many T2 get 70+ out of the box. That damage doesn't look so impressive when it's multiplied by .1 or .2.
Straight Edged	Posted - 2011.04.24 03:57:00 - [36] Quote: One thing I rarely hear about blasters is that although they do more damage on paper, every ship at the least has its 2nd and 3rd strongest resists to Therm/Kin, and many T2 get 70+ out of the box. That damage doesn't look so impressive when it's multiplied by .1 or .2. so uh. on average, ships resist 2.5x strongest of any damage type. uh. so whats new =.=''
Umega Solis Mensa	Posted - 2011.04.24 04:22:00 - [37] Originally by: The Djego Edited by: The Djego on 23/04/2011 23:26:50 Originally by: Umega All it takes is doing varies things to establish the right situation, when you think about it.. the fast blaster boats are considered top predator ships when in the right hands. Fast only makes the situation of ideal range easier.. there are other methods to get it in your favor other than simply 'approach target' and pray. This is where people fail.. but its a video game, and majority of people on an MMO can't admit their method is wrong, or simply too stupid to adapt.. and things should be adjusted to their way of thinking. The majority of the good players is also clever enough to don't use blaster ships since they are just bad. There is not a single reason to not use 50% more speed, double your range, increase your ability to actually project damage(by simply don't fly a ship that can't do it at his range), increase of utility, add the gtfo option and stop throwing a extra 50M of faction items on the hulls just because they can't be fitted with T2 reasonable well. Most blaster ships don't offer any good reason to get used by good players, I didn't fly one for ages since most of the hulls are just plain crap since 2.5 years now. Whats your definition of 'good players'? I don't see how someone could state 'good players' in sentence that suggests they need a 90% web to actual be considered legit and 'good players'. And the first part of your statement is far too random and full of ass pullin' to bother with. There is nothing wrong with them.. everything goes by current player temperate. Drakes sucked.. for how long was such the claim? Then poof-bang they get used properly in a PvP battle and escalate to their vast PvP usage today, and not a damn thing was changed to them. Maels too.. Speaking of Maels.. All three fit with 3x respective dmg mods and T2 guns with T1 ammo.. 8x 1400s = 9828 alpha 16.6 seconds 8x 800s = 2482 alpha 3.25 seconds (5 rounds to one 1400 volley for 12410 dmg) 8x neutron = 3223 alpha 4.33 seconds (3 rounds to one 1400 volley for 9669 dmg) ACs win.. not surprising really. RoF bonus to proj.. its actually a lot closer than that when you get into the fractions with how close the unbonused neutrons are to another round before 1400 goes again. Whats my point? Its only a matter of time before a well known and respected alliance pulls off a 0km warp-in point and ****s some arty/tachyon target with a neutron fleet of hyperions/brutixs.. AND to have it plastered all over the place will people take notice and think 'oh, well...' Well.. is when people realize that in fleet fighting, it should be more about fleet-alpha instead of personal alpha, and how quickly a fleet can apply that alpha onto target(s). Time spent waiting to F1 again is time you miss out applying dmg on new primary before your secondary becomes Your primary. Make sense? Probably not.. try tracking a target under 400 sig radius doing over 200 m/s with a 1400 within 15km. Such a scenario won't be pretty.. for the fotm. But that takes planning and coordination.. and an actual good core of players to pull off. It is so much easier for numbnuts to sit in a range boat and park/wait. Such is the climate today. ---------------------------------------- Treat the EVE markets like you are its Pimp.. it is your 'willing' employee to fondle n use n abuse as you please.
baltec1	Posted - 2011.04.24 06:03:00 - [38] Originally by: Cambarus In the last 3 months your most used ships are the hound, cane, and vengeance. If blasters are fine why AREN'T you using them? Because I have had very little time to play eve so even those ships are not used much. I will be lucky to have 5 kills over the last month and my most used ship over the last month was taking out my arty mael twice.
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate	Posted - 2011.04.24 06:32:00 - [39] Originally by: baltec1 Edited by: baltec1 on 24/04/2011 06:14:01 Originally by: Cambarus In the last 3 months your most used ships are the hound, cane, and vengeance. If blasters are fine why AREN'T you using them? Because I have had very little time to play eve so even those ships are not used much. I will be lucky to have 5 kills over the last month and my most used ship over the last month was taking out my arty mael twice. Incidently, I used the vengece once this year and I cannot remember the last time I used a cane. My last used ships over the last two months were the hound and the mael which did get kills and my mega which did not. So the guy arguing that his experience trumps hard facts and numbers has no provable experience that supports his claim. Gotcha.
The Djego Minmatar Hellequin Inc.	Posted - 2011.04.24 08:44:00 - [40] Originally by: Umega Whats your definition of 'good players'? I don't see how someone could state 'good players' in sentence that suggests they need a 90% web to actual be considered legit and 'good players'. Is this so? The key point might be, what can a good player do with a blaster ship that has the ability to actually do damage at close range again? Is it worth using as a damage dealer in solo/small gang scenarios with the 60% web? Probably not and this might be the reason why it isn't really used atm. Originally by: Umega Its only a matter of time before a well known and respected alliance pulls off a 0km warp-in point and **s some arty/tachyon target with a neutron fleet of hyperions/brutixs.. AND to have it plastered all over the place will people take notice and think 'oh, well...' It is not, because it is **ed. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by:** Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
baltec1	Posted - 2011.04.24 19:25:00 - [41] Originally by: Cambarus So the guy arguing that his experience trumps hard facts and numbers has no provable experience that supports his claim. Gotcha. kill mails are no evidence as they are often buggy and do not ever tell you what happened in a fight just who died to what, and even that can be wrong at times. Quite simply, you cannot use them while I seem to be able to which tells me the issues are pilot related.
Aamrr	Posted - 2011.04.24 21:02:00 - [42] Edited by: Aamrr on 24/04/2011 21:03:26 I'd just like to point out that killmail whoring guns on scimitars really aren't that bad or unusual. The scimitar is far more powergrid constrained than slot constrained, and there are very few modules which can actually provide any significant combat benefit. At best, you could make an argument for the +2 targets an autotargeter would give, but there aren't many pilots with multitasking 5 trained. Edit: Just make sure that you don't get aggressed at an inappropriate time. If you lose your ship because you couldn't jump or dock, then you deserve to get yelled at.
Captain Brickwalle	Posted - 2011.04.24 21:27:00 - [43] Secret to blasters: 1) get a proper dedicated tackle Or 2) use TE rather than mag stabs
Von Kroll Caldari Kroll's Legion	Posted - 2011.04.24 22:32:00 - [44] Originally by: Captain Brickwalle Secret to blasters: 2) use TE rather than mag stabs I get more DPS out of rails than blasters if I use 3 TE's on a blaster fit, compared to Mag Stabs on the rail fit, and at over double the range. This compares two Moa fits, one with 200mm Rails, and one with Ion Blasters. I suppose the tracking would suffer in comparison, but...
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate	Posted - 2011.04.24 23:37:00 - [45] Originally by: baltec1 kill mails are no evidence as they are often buggy and do not ever tell you what happened in a fight just who died to what, and even that can be wrong at times. Killmails may njot be perfect but they are the only evidence most people have, short of frapsing fights. The point I'm trying to make is this: The argument that the numbers don't tell the whole story is not in and of itself an invalid one. HOWEVER, if you yourself cannot offer any sort of proof to back up your claims of experience, then as far as the topic at hand is concerned you're either lying or don't HAVE experience, and anything you say is completely irrelevant. You can't expect anyone to believe what you say when your only proof for your argument is experience, and you have no proof of said experience. If, however, you insist on sticking by this claim, I will make one of my own: In my experience, even at close range and in a 1 on 1 fight, matari and amarr ships greatly outclass gallente ships. If you cannot make these ships excel then it must be because you do not know how to fly them. Originally by: baltec1 Quite simply, you cannot use them while I seem to be able to which tells me the issues are pilot related. You do not SEEM to be able to use them, you CLAIM to be able to use them. I'll repeat what I said in an earlier post: Proof or STFU.
Baraka Saibot	Posted - 2011.04.25 03:47:00 - [46] How about of mostly falloff on blasters, to be about 70-80% optimal and the rest falloff. Better real DPS, better range, and Caldari gunboats would benefit more from their rather useless bonus with blasters.
The Djego Minmatar Hellequin Inc.	Posted - 2011.04.25 06:03:00 - [47] Originally by: Baraka Saibot How about of mostly falloff on blasters, to be about 70-80% optimal and the rest falloff. Better real DPS, better range, and Caldari gunboats would benefit more from their rather useless bonus with blasters. That weapon is called puls laser and already ingame. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
Oeduard Kriegge	Posted - 2011.04.25 07:07:00 - [48] Edited by: Oeduard Kriegge on 25/04/2011 07:09:35 (arguably) the blaster/gallente situation could be realistically helped (not solved, helped) by a little-to-moderate buff to remote sensor dampners - not by returning them to what they once were, pre-scripting - but by making them more effective (than they are now) when mounted on the ships that supply a bonus to their use.
baltec1	Posted - 2011.04.25 09:08:00 - [49] Originally by: Cambarus Proof or STFU. Well if we are going to use the KB then lets see last nights roam in my first diemost victim The story for this kill is as follows. The dram tackles the target and we jump in. I find myself 35km from the cane so have to burn to target which is running away while the other canes and harby open fire. Dispite this as you can see I come in second for damage. I was only out damaged by the harbi which is not all that suprising because the harbi is a fantastic boat for taking out sheild ships and I only had 4x ion and 1x electron and they had a head start.
Sigras	Posted - 2011.04.25 10:43:00 - [50] Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: Cambarus Proof or STFU. Well if we are going to use the KB then lets see last nights roam in my first diemost victim The story for this kill is as follows. The dram tackles the target and we jump in. I find myself 35km from the cane so have to burn to target which is running away while the other canes and harby open fire. Dispite this as you can see I come in second for damage. I was only out damaged by the harbi which is not all that suprising because the harbi is a fantastic boat for taking out sheild ships and I only had 4x ion and 1x electron and they had a head start. So what you're saying is that a 30 million isk harby did nearly twice as much damage as your 100 million isk deimos . . . got it. Honestly guys, how many situations would you really take a megathron over an armageddon? the geddon is cheaper, and if you're out of range you have the option to load scorch and still hit things at 45 km; you know how much damage my mega does at 45 km with its blasters? LOL I dont even need EFT for that one. Im sorry, ill take 1200 DPS pretty much always over 1300 DPS pretty much never, which is exactly what the mega gives you, 1300 DPS pretty much never. Now I believe that frigate blasters are the only ones that work correctly; they have no trouble tracking, getting in range, and they do insanity damage. You also have a case for the vindi because of its 90% webs, and maybe the deimos even though its made of Papier-mGchT but look at the evidence; the most popular fits for the brutix and the hyperion are buffer shield tanking even though they're clearly designed to armor tank given their bonuses; couple that with the fact that the drawback for the native tank of the blaster boats (armor) is a speed nerf and you have a serious problem. Lastly, I dont know why tracking does not follow range; they should be inversely related but autocannons with 300% the range of blasters also get better tracking. Ok lets compare the two weapon systems for a moment. One gets 10% extra damage The other uses no cap, can chose its damage type, has better tracking, has ammo that provides even better tracking, is easier to fit . . . ooh yeah lets also put this weapon system on the fastest ships so they can dictate range too . . . yep that looks balanced
Annie Anomie Shadows Of The Federation	Posted - 2011.04.25 10:49:00 - [51] To my mind Blasters are ALWAYS going to be situational just because of their design. They're the highest damage, shortest range guns. That's ALWAYS going to limit them to particular niches. Given most PVP is done in gangs where that kind of weapon is going to be less effective just because of the nature of a bunch of guys shooting at a bunch of guys I don't really see how you'd tweak them to suddenly work in that setting without making them into one of the other weapon systems.
baltec1	Posted - 2011.04.25 11:22:00 - [52] Originally by: Sigras So what you're saying is that a 30 million isk harby did nearly twice as much damage as your 100 million isk deimos . . . got it. Lets ignore the fact the harbi is one of the best BC in game and was shooting at a ship with a massive EM hole and the diemost started shooting after several vollies yet still managed to out damage two canes
Von Kroll Caldari Kroll's Legion	Posted - 2011.04.25 15:24:00 - [53] Originally by: Sigras [ooh yeah lets also put this weapon system on the fastest ships so they can dictate range too . . . yep that looks balanced Pretty much agree with all of this, but lets not forget that the community is to blame for the projectile buff that completely unbalanced the whole array of gunships. Folks used to ***** just as incessantly for Proj to be buffed, and we certainly got it. If they buff hybrids, either Gal or Cal gunships are going to be OP--mark my words. CCP just doesn't know what "subtle" means when it comes to "rebalancing".
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate	Posted - 2011.04.25 15:42:00 - [54] Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: Sigras So what you're saying is that a 30 million isk harby did nearly twice as much damage as your 100 million isk deimos . . . got it. Lets ignore the fact the harbi is one of the best BC in game and was shooting at a ship with a massive EM hole and the diemost started shooting after several vollies yet still managed to out damage two canes You were asked for proof as to why blasters are good, you linked a KM where they were not really good, and then made a bunch of excuses as to why it's not the blasters' fault that they were outperformed by lasers. The deimos especially is terribad because it's an up-close brawler, and t1 BCs are better at it, for much cheaper.
X Gallentius Quantum Cats Syndicate	Posted - 2011.04.25 16:02:00 - [55] Edited by: X Gallentius on 25/04/2011 16:05:26 Originally by: Daneel Trevize Just how do you gtfo from a ship that's got you pointed, is faster than you (kiting doesn't mean they're restricted to only flying away), and you aren't hurting it nearly as much as it's hurting you? ECM drones. In other blaster news... Rail Comet ftw.
baltec1	Posted - 2011.04.25 16:41:00 - [56] Edited by: baltec1 on 25/04/2011 16:42:00 Originally by: Cambarus You were asked for proof as to why blasters are good, you linked a KM where they were not really good, and then made a bunch of excuses as to why it's not the blasters' fault that they were outperformed by lasers. The deimos especially is terribad because it's an up-close brawler, and t1 BCs are better at it, for much cheaper. So beating two canes fitted with AC which according to you are so much better doesnt show blasters are just as good in the right hands?
Ilike ithard	Posted - 2011.04.25 18:12:00 - [57] If blasters were "fixed" then everything else would be broken.
Traejun DiSanctis Caldari	Posted - 2011.04.25 18:38:00 - [58] Originally by: Ilike ithard If blasters were "fixed" then everything else would be broken. Nah, missiles would be fine. The role of missiles isn't threatened by any other weapon type.
Val'Dore Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided	Posted - 2011.04.25 18:45:00 - [59] Blasters work better on Minmatar ships than on Gallente ships. ~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ Tiericide
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate	Posted - 2011.04.25 20:35:00 - [60] Originally by: baltec1 So beating two canes fitted with AC which according to you are so much better doesnt show blasters are just as good in the right hands? FFS learn to quote. How exactly did you "beat" these canes? If you're referring to the ones you were flying with (as in, in terms of damage applied) one has to question the information when you have a guardian ODing one of the canes. Either they weren't shooting the target, or they got there late, or they were doing something stupid. Not to mention the fact that this doesn't really show the performance of blasters. You did 7k damage, congratu****inglations. You could have done that with just about any ship(yes even a cane), and the fact that the harb did 10.5k damage to the same target means you weren't even the top contributor. Your KM proves exactly nothing except that you're looking at its information with the ASSUMPTION that blasters are good, and coming up with excuses as to why this mail does not reflect that, rather than looking at it objectively, and seeing that in that case the harb was clearly the better ship for the job, and that you don't actually HAVE proof of a situation where blasters were the ideal weapon.
baltec1	Posted - 2011.04.25 21:14:00 - [61] Originally by: Cambarus Originally by: baltec1 So beating two canes fitted with AC which according to you are so much better doesnt show blasters are just as good in the right hands? FFS learn to quote. How exactly did you "beat" these canes? If you're referring to the ones you were flying with (as in, in terms of damage applied) one has to question the information when you have a guardian ODing one of the canes. Either they weren't shooting the target, or they got there late, or they were doing something stupid. Not to mention the fact that this doesn't really show the performance of blasters. You did 7k damage, congratu****inglations. You could have done that with just about any ship(yes even a cane), and the fact that the harb did 10.5k damage to the same target means you weren't even the top contributor. Your KM proves exactly nothing except that you're looking at its information with the ASSUMPTION that blasters are good, and coming up with excuses as to why this mail does not reflect that, rather than looking at it objectively, and seeing that in that case the harb was clearly the better ship for the job, and that you don't actually HAVE proof of a situation where blasters were the ideal weapon. Guardian jumped early and did a rambo. Harbi is a good ship shooting at the right resist hole. I would have been very suprised to beat it unless I applied my DPS at the same time. However I DID beat the canes dispite their advantage in range. Im guessing you would do this to any kind of mail I put up here because you simply do not want to belive anyone can be any good with blasters.
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate	Posted - 2011.04.25 22:22:00 - [62] Edited by: Cambarus on 25/04/2011 22:24:40 Originally by: baltec1 Guardian jumped early and did a rambo. Harbi is a good ship shooting at the right resist hole. I would have been very suprised to beat it unless I applied my DPS at the same time. However I DID beat the canes dispite their advantage in range. Im guessing you would do this to any kind of mail I put up here because you simply do not want to belive anyone can be any good with blasters. You're still making excuses though. In order for your point to be valid, you have to have some sort of PROOF that blasters not only did sort-of-ok, but actually OUTPERFORMED all other kinds of turrets. Their are situations in which lasers shine, there are situations in which projectiles shine, and there are situations in which missiles shine, unfortunately, there aren't really any situations where blasters shine, pirate faction ships excluded. What's more is that the km you linked shows one of the canes being ODd by a freaking logistics ship. Saying you did more damage than a cane when a logi can make that same claim doesn't prove anything. If you want to prove that blasters are fine, you have to prove it. To prove it, you have to show them outperforming the other weapon systems (because if you really think blasters are good, then you must be using them in situations where they shine right?) and you have to do it with some sort of regularity. I'll give you an example: The helios makes a great pvp frig, partially because no one expects it to be pvp fit, and partially because dem mids make for lots of ewar. Proof can be seen here, here, here, and here. The performance is immediately visible, no excuses need to be made, and the KMs speak for themselves. (and before you ask no, they don't quite do the ship justice, but I won't go on about details of those fights I can't prove, because that goes against the very idea of proof)
Baraka Saibot	Posted - 2011.04.26 03:08:00 - [63] Originally by: The Djego Originally by: Baraka Saibot How about of mostly falloff on blasters, to be about 70-80% optimal and the rest falloff. Better real DPS, better range, and Caldari gunboats would benefit more from their rather useless bonus with blasters. That weapon is called puls laser and already ingame. No, it's called giving the the blasters more optimal and less falloff but still the same maximum range. The Pulse lasers will still have better range.
Raven Foxfire	Posted - 2011.04.26 05:13:00 - [64] Problem solved - CCP just REMOVES Gallente from the game all together. They obviously are bad and unworthy of play.
The Djego Minmatar Hellequin Inc.	Posted - 2011.04.26 05:32:00 - [65] Originally by: Baraka Saibot Originally by: The Djego Originally by: Baraka Saibot How about of mostly falloff on blasters, to be about 70-80% optimal and the rest falloff. Better real DPS, better range, and Caldari gunboats would benefit more from their rather useless bonus with blasters. That weapon is called puls laser and already ingame. No, it's called giving the the blasters more optimal and less falloff but still the same maximum range. The Pulse lasers will still have better range. FYI Neutron Blaster II Now: 4.5km optimal, 12.5km falloff. With 70%: 13,25 + 3,75 With 80%: 14,5 + 2.5 Mega Puls Laser II Now: 15km optimal, 10km falloff ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
Beltantis Torrence Wolfsbrigade	Posted - 2011.04.26 05:45:00 - [66] Edited by: Beltantis Torrence on 26/04/2011 05:47:35 Originally by: Raven Foxfire Problem solved - CCP just REMOVES Gallente from the game all together. They obviously are bad and unworthy of play. In PVP I haven't flown the ranis since faction frig revamp. I think the only Gallente ship I've flown with regularity in the last year or so has been the Dominix. Yeah, they're pretty awful compared to Amarr and Minmatar. Thorax vs Rupture - I'll take ruppy every time for better range and tracking. Brutix/Myrm vs Cane - LOL. Deimos vs Vaga - LOL. Lachesis/Arazu vs Rapier/Curse/Falcon - LOL. Even their logistics ship sucks. They've nerfed so many of the Gallente mechanics that they're just god damned awful now.
Precisionist	Posted - 2011.04.26 07:10:00 - [67] Gallente are broken, I see a few good things for a few good specific rolls that in shines in, domi for neut/drones, ishtar nano'ed. Besides those two ships u can not solo, Deimos is only good with a tackler and usually then it sucks compared to others. Sure u can sniper with the megathron but why do that when other BS's do it better. Gallente need either more speed or more agility or both, they should be second fastest and first agility. I only take out my deimos when I am with a tackler or with my alt in a pilgrim/curse. Make the ships more agile and make the tracking on blasters/rails better. should be all, and even then u most likely need a tackler.
AstarothPrime	Posted - 2011.04.26 07:43:00 - [68] From what i have read in bazillion topics about ac/rails, the best way to fix them would be: 1) Pair up speed and hybrid bonuses 2) Pair up Armor tanking and AC bonuses Noone would rant is hybrid boats were as agile and fast as minmatar. Noone would rant about AC wtfpwn on slowboats, proved on amarr which noone considers OP even tho they dish out by far the biggest damage to further possible ranges. Regards I.
Baraka Saibot	Posted - 2011.04.26 07:53:00 - [69] Originally by: The Djego Originally by: Baraka Saibot Originally by: The Djego Originally by: Baraka Saibot How about of mostly falloff on blasters, to be about 70-80% optimal and the rest falloff. Better real DPS, better range, and Caldari gunboats would benefit more from their rather useless bonus with blasters. That weapon is called puls laser and already ingame. No, it's called giving the the blasters more optimal and less falloff but still the same maximum range. The Pulse lasers will still have better range. FYI Neutron Blaster II Now: 4.5km optimal, 12.5km falloff. With 70%: 13,25 + 3,75 With 80%: 14,5 + 2.5 Mega Puls Laser II Now: 15km optimal, 10km falloff FYI 1. I have EFT too. FYI 2. Pulse as you see still have better range. FYI 3. Maybe slightly less around 50-60%. FYI 4. This is pointless anyway.
The Djego Minmatar Hellequin Inc.	Posted - 2011.04.26 09:38:00 - [70] Edited by: The Djego on 26/04/2011 09:39:03 Originally by: Baraka Saibot FYI 4. This is pointless anyway. Since I can use missles, acs and lasers fairly well and mostly just waiting since 2.5 years now that CCP actually address the failure that blasters became as a point blank weapon with QR, I would agree here. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
baltec1	Posted - 2011.04.26 09:45:00 - [71] Originally by: Cambarus You're still making excuses though. In order for your point to be valid, you have to have some sort of PROOF that blasters not only did sort-of-ok, but actually OUTPERFORMED all other kinds of turrets. Their are situations in which lasers shine, there are situations in which projectiles shine, and there are situations in which missiles shine, unfortunately, there aren't really any situations where blasters shine, pirate faction ships excluded. What's more is that the km you linked shows one of the canes being ODd by a freaking logistics ship. Saying you did more damage than a cane when a logi can make that same claim doesn't prove anything. If you want to prove that blasters are fine, you have to prove it. To prove it, you have to show them outperforming the other weapon systems (because if you really think blasters are good, then you must be using them in situations where they shine right?) and you have to do it with some sort of regularity. I'll give you an example: The helios makes a great pvp frig, partially because no one expects it to be pvp fit, and partially because dem mids make for lots of ewar. Proof can be seen here, here, here, and here. The performance is immediately visible, no excuses need to be made, and the KMs speak for themselves. (and before you ask no, they don't quite do the ship justice, but I won't go on about details of those fights I can't prove, because that goes against the very idea of proof) So I have to be up top 100% of the time and beat it all before you think blasters are on par with the other weapon systems? That makes sense... This reminds me of the hate I used to see for the drake and now look at it. CCP changed nothing, what changed is people started to fly it on mass and fly them well. The same happened with the tempest for a while and bombers. People used to rage when I said I flew solo in a bomber becuase they thought it could not be done because EFT said so. The funny thing is, most of the EFT warriors who whine have either never used the things they whine about or flew it once or twice, got it wrong, and gave up thinking it was impossible. Now if we are going to go by KM then looking at your history I can see we do things radically different in both fittings and gang setups. It looks like you are often outnumbered which is never good for any ship. It also seems you did not expect this kronos to be able to track you with its blasters Or to have just about single handedly wiped out a domi and pilgrim too while chasing off a drake.
The Djego Minmatar Hellequin Inc.	Posted - 2011.04.26 10:20:00 - [72] Originally by: baltec1 So I have to be up top 100% of the time and beat it all before you think blasters are on par with the other weapon systems? May by people would take you serious if you would have something more to contribute to the topic than "I think blasters are fine, and I used them a few times, all your numbers must be wrong by my limited personal experience with them". Just a opinion from somebody that flown the ships a bit back in the days as a general bread and butter pvp baseline instead of "lol look I didn't score last place in damage done on this KM". If there are reasons to don't bring the hulls to small gang/solo fights, even fully maxed out on the skill side, because other hulls/weapons just do the same better in 9/10 cases, the concept is not fine, regardless of your opinion that was disproved by numbers more than one time. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
baltec1	Posted - 2011.04.26 15:42:00 - [73] Originally by: The Djego May by people would take you serious if you would have something more to contribute to the topic than "I think blasters are fine, and I used them a few times, all your numbers must be wrong by my limited personal experience with them". Just a opinion from somebody that flown the ships a bit back in the days as a general bread and butter pvp baseline instead of "lol look I didn't score last place in damage done on this KM". If there are reasons to don't bring the hulls to small gang/solo fights, even fully maxed out on the skill side, because other hulls/weapons just do the same better in 9/10 cases, the concept is not fine, regardless of your opinion that was disproved by numbers more than one time. The problem with EFT numbers is they get proven to mean very little in the game time after time. There are far more people who do fly blaster boats out there who do not have all of the issues you lot seem to have and the very fact none of you seem to be able to agree what exactly is wrong with them or know how to fix them just comes across to me as you lot not using them right in the first place. As I said before, they work for me but not for you. If they didnt work then I would not use them. Quite honestly I should probably keep my trap shut and let you get them buffed so I can get ven more out of them.
X Gallentius Quantum Cats Syndicate	Posted - 2011.04.26 15:53:00 - [74] Every time I hear that blasters are great from a poster, I look at his eve-kill stats and see something like this: His unknown, non-posting main flies Gallente Hulls
Sable Schroedinger Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2011.04.26 16:01:00 - [75] Edited by: Sable Schroedinger on 26/04/2011 16:04:25 IÆm in the camp of ôyes theres a problem with blastersö, but the reality of it is that it is much wider than that. Once upon a time the blaster, like the laser before it, was king in the DPS stakes and the gank boat of choice. In many ways, this is still the same. If you can get someone pinned and are planning to warp a group in on them with a view to killing them before their friends can come, a blaster boat is the ship you want. But theres more to fighting that ganks (believe it or not) and this is where the blaster boats began to have problems as along came a number of changes to the game. First I remember was the hit point buff. This buff radically skewed the advantages of buffer tanks over active tanks. Blasters still did ok in this environment because of their relatively high DPS, but became even more the glass cannon than they had been previously. The problem with the rise of the buffer tank is that gal boats are balanced to the greater part on being active tanked (indicated by their racial tanking bonus). Since active tanks (particularly mini and gal boats) fold under fire from multiple ships (they work for 1v1s and thatÆs about it, give or take a few specific situations), blaster boats are too cap fragile for the long fight and suffer from tight fitting constraints meaning in order to fit reppers (which have significantly higher fitting requirements than an equivalent plate) and a cap injector blaster boats could barely fit guns, it became better to buffer tank the blaster boats, more hit points (a repper has to run for around 90 seconds before it can rep the hit points in a single plate of similar size), less cap problems and more damage (can fit bigger guns). This wrecked their base agility and speed û if you assume Amarr will be buffer tanked with lots of plates and Gal will be active tanked with no plates, Gal are on the whole, faster than Amarrian ships once fit. Minmatar ships will always outrun them, but at that time had to come in close to do the damage needed to overpower an active tanked ship as otherwise theyÆd be in deep fall off, but this ended with the TE boost to fall off. The overall damage rise of other races weapon systems marginalised the DPS advantage of blasters, requiring them to fit a significant number of mag stabs in order to maintain. The Web and Scram changes are well documented (particularly their effect on tracking), so IÆll not truck them out again, but this was another nail in the coffin, especially if you consider the need to dual prop a blaster boat in order to maintain effectiveness in range û frankly, there is just no room on the ships for active tanks, significant numbers of damage mods, cap injectors, dual prop, web, scram and guns in the PG/CPU levels of the ships, never mind slot layout, so put together the concept doesnÆt work even if the component parts werenÆt so broken in and of themselves. Whats the answer? I really donÆt know. Too many changes have come together to bring this issue about for there to be one simple solution I suspect. Doing something with active tanks and not balancing ships with them in mind unless they are viable would be a start. Over the years, people have suggested a form of damage mitigation based on too many targets shooting the same ship. Not been a fan of it myself as I canÆt picture how it would work, but if something convincing could be made, it might help the active tank to work. Re-looking at some of the attempts to boost other weapons (pulse laser tracking and the tracking enhancer boost to falloff for example since the resistance reduction and changes to ammo sorted much of their issues out). Replace the MWD (which was useful once, but not so much now) and active tank bonuses for something else û web strength (not range) really is the logical one, but eats into the pirate ships. Maybe a scram range to help them tag kiting ships and force them either further into falloff or to come in close..? -------------------------------------------- SF Recruiting
Concubinia Scarlett	Posted - 2011.04.26 16:15:00 - [76] I always think that the Gallente should be redesigned with much more bias towards drones as their primary weapons, with increased ship drone bonuses and actual fitted hybrids weapons being purely supplemental in terms of damage. Won't happen tho
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate	Posted - 2011.04.26 16:25:00 - [77] Originally by: baltec1 So I have to be up top 100% of the time and beat it all before you think blasters are on par with the other weapon systems? That makes sense... This reminds me of the hate I used to see for the drake and now look at it. CCP changed nothing, what changed is people started to fly it on mass and fly them well. The same happened with the tempest for a while and bombers. Where did I say that it has to come out on top 100% of the time? I remember some dude absolutely anihilating me with an omen, twice before I realized he was using a loki alt for ganglinks >_< The point is that a balanced weapon is either exactly the same as other weapons, or has situations in which it is notably better. If, in your entire kill history, you can't find a couple KMs where blasters clearly had an advantage over other weapon types, then you're wrong in saying that your experience tells you it is. We can see your experience, and it very clearly says that blasters are NOT balanced. Originally by: baltec1 People used to rage when I said I flew solo in a bomber becuase they thought it could not be done because EFT said so. The funny thing is, most of the EFT warriors who whine have either never used the things they whine about or flew it once or twice, got it wrong, and gave up thinking it was impossible. I actually fly bombers quite often, and I'm supposedly an eft warrior. Originally by: baltec1 Now if we are going to go by KM then looking at your history I can see we do things radically different in both fittings and gang setups. It looks like you are often outnumbered which is never good for any ship. It also seems you did not expect this kronos to be able to track you with its blasters Or to have just about single handedly wiped out a domi and pilgrim too while chasing off a drake. Actually what I didn't expect was that kronos to be able to web at nearly 20km, was quite surprising. It's a pity we didn't have our falcon pilot with us at the time, things would have gone differently I think As far as being outnumbered goes, I'd argue that it gives you a MUCH better idea of how well ships are balanced in the game than your style of pvp. If you outnumber the other guys, everything looks much better than it really is, because the performance of each ship matters very little. Go into fights outnumbered, and in smaller groups, and you get a VERY clear idea of how ships work together, which ones work well and which ones need improvements. If your ship sucks and you're in a small gang and/or outnumbered, it dies. That's pretty much a given. If you're in a gang that outnumbers the other gang, or just in a large gang to begin with, your ship doesn't really matter, so it's hard to tell whether or not you're actually helping as much as you think you are.
Sainsbury Minmatar Native Freshfood	Posted - 2011.04.26 16:31:00 - [78] Edited by: Sainsbury on 26/04/2011 16:36:37 Blasters are great fun, you just have to fit for them. More than with most weapon systems once you've decided to fly blasters you need to fit the rest of your ship around their specific needs. Speed: Making gallente boats faster would be imbalanced, not massively so but still imbalanced. Once you have the short range gun being able to dictate range on all the long range guns, that long range becomes worthless. As mentioned already an agility boost on gallente ships is probably more in the right direction. Tracking: It's really not an issue. Tracking is and should be where piloting comes in to practice. With blasters you need to approach different fights in different ways, but if you insist on orbiting everything and out tracking yourself that's your own fault. Range: Blasters have to be short ranged, if they're not they're just the same as other weapon systems but by another name (bar damage types). Do we want a homogenous game? I don't. PLus we need something to keep the thrill junkies happy :D I'm kind of addicted to the falloff bonused blaster hulls, but even there you're skirting scram range and i'd consider them 'short ranged' Damage types: It does suck that Kin/Therm is what they're stuck with, it's the lowest resist on practically nothing and the highest resist profile on many. I don't know what could be done except have a minor tertiary damage type on some ammo, e.g 10therm/15kin/2EM on antimatter? dunno if it'd make any real difference. Place in fleets: Blasters aren't for fleets, the problems with gallente boats in fleets are more problems with rails. Not an issue imo. Tank: Here i think blaster boats got screwed. Pairing low range guns with armour tanks that slow them down is a bit of a nonsense. I've ended up finding ways to avoid armour on nearly all my blaster boats, but armour tanking in general is pretty terrible for Cruiser/BC ships (yeah yeah, you can triple rep a myrm, great... but it relies entirely on the other guys decideding to wander into tackle range). This unfortunatley isn't gonna get fixed so shrug Anyway, i've had fun with blaster boats and found places for them in small shield gangs or solo. Here's a couple of fits i enjoyed, give 'em a whirl Vigilant: http://tuskers.killmail.org/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=8830450 Deimos: http://tuskers.killmail.org/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=9055814 Proteus: http://tuskers.killmail.org/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=9113540 Brutix: http://tuskers.killmail.org/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=8638127 I particularly like posting that proteus fit in public places, for the rage and "you're a ***ing idiot!!" replies it gets without people figuring out how it's meant to be flown (don't worry i'm thick skinned, and probably am an idiot anyway :P ). Wish i wasn't always space poor, as it's the most fun i've ever had with a ship and i wants another! accepting donations* <3 Sa'Haira. ------- Quote: "Te audire non possum, musa sapientum fixa est in aura" - I can't hear you, i have a banana stuck in my ears.
Kusariqqu Gallente Hounds of Helll	Posted - 2011.04.26 16:47:00 - [79] I started playing in 05 and now its 2011, and im full gallente spec, i fly nothing else. Now dont get me wrong blasters arnt what they used to be, but i dont believe its down to the weapons them selfs. Webs are now at 60% which makes its almost impossible to slow a ship down to an almost stop unless you have dual webs and even then a ship with a mwd can easily burn at 300+ms, if your in a thron the last thing you want to do it keep pulsing your mwd to keep ****ing up with a cruiser. Webs need to back up at 90% or give gallente ships a role bonus to them like the kronos gets, Second was the introduction to real mass to the ships, its difficult to get onto of someone now, yes i know all ships got the so called mass nerf, but it didint hurt any other players other than gellente from a close range combat perspective. If you can get a Battleship over 1kms with tank and damage like you could b4 with just t2 equipment i'd be very surprised. Imho gallente ships needs a mass reduction, not all, just cruiser and above and a web bonus and gallente are back in business.
Tarigal	Posted - 2011.04.26 18:05:00 - [80] Picking on this guy because he can't show proof that blasters are decent in the right hands is a bit short sighted. Just open battleclinic, check out the top 100 players, and you will see many examples of blaster boats that are used in a variety of situations successfully, even solo. Check out Sith, Prometheus, etc; the list goes on and on. Blaster boats can be fun from what I have heard, people engage them expecting they will suck.
Traejun DiSanctis Caldari	Posted - 2011.04.26 18:26:00 - [81] Try railguns...then you'll know for a fact that Blasters just aren't that bad.
The Djego Minmatar Hellequin Inc.	Posted - 2011.04.26 20:39:00 - [82] Originally by: baltec1 The problem with EFT numbers is they get proven to mean very little in the game time after time. EFT stats are very exact and lead to a quite predictable ingame behavior as long as people understand how falloff, tracking, speed and range work together in a standard pvp situation and are able adjust her tactic to the ship they fly and the ships they fight. Originally by: baltec1 There are far more people who do fly blaster boats out there who do not have all of the issues you lot seem to have and the very fact none of you seem to be able to agree what exactly is wrong with them or know how to fix them just comes across to me as you lot not using them right in the first place. I don't know many in person actually, most people around me that flown the hulls a lot back in the days use mini or amarr today, similar to me. Originally by: baltec1 As I said before, they work for me but not for you. If they didnt work then I would not use them. Quite honestly I should probably keep my trap shut and let you get them buffed so I can get ven more out of them. Depends a lot if you can win a fight by just pressing F1 since you have 5vs1 odds or you really have to work for it and using the strength of the ships/weapons to get the kill and don't die in a fire any time you try. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
The Djego Minmatar Hellequin Inc.	Posted - 2011.04.26 21:02:00 - [83] Originally by: Sainsbury Speed: Making gallente boats faster would be imbalanced, not massively so but still imbalanced. Once you have the short range gun being able to dictate range on all the long range guns, that long range becomes worthless. As mentioned already an agility boost on gallente ships is probably more in the right direction. Right because a non nanoed blaster ship is to slow to catch stuff and a nanoed one dies against any good pilot regardless of the range because of the awesome tank made of paper. Originally by: Sainsbury Tracking: It's really not an issue. Tracking is and should be where piloting comes in to practice. With blasters you need to approach different fights in different ways, but if you insist on orbiting everything and out tracking yourself that's your own fault. How about people that are not being total ****s and give a about people that pretend the damage projection is fine because they can gear the hulls to not fighting at a range that sucks so much(again a range where anybody good will eat you alive with EMP/Scorch). Originally by:** Sainsbury Range: Blasters have to be short ranged, if they're not they're just the same as other weapon systems but by another name (bar damage types). Do we want a homogenous game? I don't. PLus we need something to keep the thrill junkies happy :D I'm kind of addicted to the falloff bonused blaster hulls, but even there you're skirting scram range and i'd consider them 'short ranged' How about using the hulls at point blank, getting the real deal of what pile of crap short range pvp really is since 2.5 years? Originally by: Sainsbury Damage types: It does suck that Kin/Therm is what they're stuck with, it's the lowest resist on practically nothing and the highest resist profile on many. I don't know what could be done except have a minor tertiary damage type on some ammo, e.g 10therm/15kin/2EM on antimatter? dunno if it'd make any real difference. Blaster pvp is balanced around putting peak dps on the target, where even HIC like resists will not save you from dieing a quick and painful death. It doesn't need other damage types or fancy stuff it just needs back the ability to dish out real pain at point blank. Originally by: Sainsbury Place in fleets: Blasters aren't for fleets, the problems with gallente boats in fleets are more problems with rails. Not an issue imo. Agreed. Originally by: Sainsbury Tank: Here i think blaster boats got screwed. Pairing low range guns with armour tanks that slow them down is a bit of a nonsense. I've ended up finding ways to avoid armour on nearly all my blaster boats, but armour tanking in general is pretty terrible for Cruiser/BC ships (yeah yeah, you can triple rep a myrm, great... but it relies entirely on the other guys decideding to wander into tackle range). This unfortunatley isn't gonna get fixed so shrug It can be fixed with addressing the rigs and put blaster pvp in a proper state at point blank again. Gank is the primary tank of a blaster ship and even a light active or buffer tank can be quite good if you can count on the dps your hull will bring to the table(w/o failing to deliver it at point blank) and can force off/kill tacklers just as before QR. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
Purple Warlock	Posted - 2011.04.27 00:55:00 - [84] Originally by: FutureTroll5000 Would that not make Gallente ships OP? are we talking about the same gallente? Originally by: FutureTroll5000 They have the most insane drone bays in the game, its actually 3 i say myrm, and what the other guy said domi and ishtar. Originally by: FutureTroll5000 let us say that suddenly blasters were on par with projectiles.. last time i checked blasters were the highest damage weapon platform(**ty range)....hybrids have absurd range (ty damage) Originally by:** FutureTroll5000 projectile-like guns AND a trillion drones doing damage. projectile-like? they will never be projectile-like, thats the thing, they need to be unique. I mean TBH IMHO blasters are fine its just that you cant get in range fast enough. I know that in WH where most engagements happen at like 5km people LOVE the proteus and their blasters. TL;DR ur have no solid data, information and your name gives you away. ohhh and blasters are fine its the range that sux
FutureTroll5000	Posted - 2011.04.27 01:02:00 - [85] Originally by: Purple Warlock TL;DR ur have no solid data, information and your name gives you away. ohhh and blasters are fine its the range that sux my name is supposed to give me away. also i don't have vested interest in blasters this way, or that. but you do make a real astute amateur sleuth
Flattomz	Posted - 2011.04.27 02:05:00 - [86] Originally by: Val'Dore Blasters work better on Minmatar ships than on Gallente ships. Are you suggesting that it would be a good idea to swap projectile and hybrid bonuses such that minmatar ships would use hybrids and gallente ships would use projectiles? This could work as well as this one.
FutureTroll5000	Posted - 2011.04.27 02:10:00 - [87] hell, in a way, why not?
Mufa Jaynara	Posted - 2011.04.27 02:35:00 - [88] One thing, Blasters have the best trackings, but worst range... The thing is... Even though it can't hit stuff if your too close and too fast... neither can your target, and you can find the fine ballance once your close enough and have the enemy tackled... Only problem is actually getting close enough most of the time, as most people fly minimatar, and minimatar are the fastest. but you might get lucky you find something els, or you catch someone off guard
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate	Posted - 2011.04.27 03:39:00 - [89] Originally by: Mufa Jaynara One thing, Blasters have the best trackings, but worst range... The thing is... Even though it can't hit stuff if your too close and too fast... neither can your target, and you can find the fine ballance once your close enough and have the enemy tackled... The window where this is possible is literally less than 1km for a megathron vs a pulse geddon. That's for a BS, with a tracking bonus(IE biggest range and best relative tracking). There is simply no way to keep that sort of range if you're in a BS sized brick, unless your opponent is an idiot.
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate	Posted - 2011.04.27 03:49:00 - [90] Originally by: Sainsbury Speed: Making gallente boats faster would be imbalanced, not massively so but still imbalanced. Once you have the short range gun being able to dictate range on all the long range guns, that long range becomes worthless. As mentioned already an agility boost on gallente ships is probably more in the right direction. You've actually got it backwards. Typically speaking, longer ranged weapons are either given a minimum range, or are made slower than their short-ranged counterparts, because if a long-range weapon user can permanently avoid getting close to the close range brawler, he will effectively take zero damage. The idea being, if (pulling numbers out my ass to make a hypothetical point) blasters did twice the damage of ACs, but in an average fight only actually got close enough to apply said damage for half the duration of the brawl, the 2 would be balanced. As it is, a matari ship can simply kite a blaster boat forever. Originally by: Sainsbury Tracking: It's really not an issue. Tracking is and should be where piloting comes in to practice. With blasters you need to approach different fights in different ways, but if you insist on orbiting everything and out tracking yourself that's your own fault. TBH I find blaster tracking to be acceptable. It could use a slight boost, but there's nothing wrong with making the damage of blasters hard to apply, leading into my next point: Originally by: Sainsbury Range: Blasters have to be short ranged, Again, making the damage hard to apply is not a bad thing, provided you balance this with higher theoretical damage. Blasters don't get that theoretical damage increase (or rather, it's a teeny tiny increase in raw DPS for massive decreases in range) Originally by: Sainsbury Place in fleets: Blasters aren't for fleets, the problems with gallente boats in fleets are more problems with rails. Not an issue imo. Replace "fleets" with "gangs of more than a couple people" and you're spot on. The problem is that in a 1v1, where blasters should shine, the difference between them and other guns is negligible at best, and in favour of the other guns at worst. Compare how poorly blasters do in larger gangs to how poorly pulses or ACs do in small gang/solo work and you'll see the problem.
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate	Posted - 2011.04.27 03:58:00 - [91] Originally by: Tarigal Picking on this guy because he can't show proof that blasters are decent in the right hands is a bit short sighted. I'm not picking on him. He's arguing that every argument I bring up is invalid because it's based on numbers rather than experience, then refusing to actually show any proof that experience suggests that the numbers are wrong. Originally by: Tarigal Just open battleclinic, check out the top 100 players, and you will see many examples of blaster boats that are used in a variety of situations successfully, even solo. Check out Sith, Prometheus, etc; the list goes on and on. Blaster boats can be fun from what I have heard, people engage them expecting they will suck. When I look at the top guys on BC I see a lot more matari ships than I do gallente. Not that it matters, because if they're in the top 100 it's because they're either using a cheapass tactic to rack up easy kills, or are vastly more skilled than the average player, around whom balance issues should be decided. To quote something said quite often on the SCII forums: "You can't balance the game solely around the top tier of players, it screws over the other 90% of the playerbase."
Xzar Fyrarr Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2011.04.27 05:05:00 - [92] I personally <3 the Ishkur. Just recently started flying one and love every single second of it. Main race is Minmatar and probably always will be Minmatar if only because I like the whole "In Rust We Trust" moto. Besides the point. This discussion is no doubt interesting, if for lack of a better term. However my only problem is, it seems like a Lot of people have lost sight of the Game. Is the Game not meant to be played for fun? InB4"WinningAndEffectivenessIsFun" The Hurricane always has and always will be my favorite Battlecruiser. Specc'd a long time ago to be able to fly the ship to it's fullest extent. I don't particularly Like battleships, but the Vindicator and Hyperion will always be, and always were my favorite battleships based on watching videos of them in combat, normally 1 versus 4 or more. HACS - Don't have much experience other than dying in them, but I would like to experiment with a Deimos in the future. It looks fun. Granted the target selection will probably be much lower than that of a Vagabond or Zealot or Cynabal, it still looks Fun. And yes, I do not know how to fly any of the ships I have the skills to fly well at all. Will admit to that. The only 2 ships in the game I have any remote confidence in are the Hurricane and the Ishkur [gaining loads of confidence with this ship via duels/videos. Love this frigate] Anywho, TL:DR - Whats more important, having fun or degrading in every possible way a certain race that shall not be named ships? Some of the post look more like "you fail at life if you fly that ship, you nerd." post instead of "interesting choice. suit yourself. etc." post. I'm assuming the latter. ------------------------------------------------ One Cannot Fully Appreciate Peace Until They Have Experienced True Pain. ------------------------------------------------- - Xzar Fyrarr ;
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate	Posted - 2011.04.27 06:03:00 - [93] Originally by: Xzar Fyrarr Anywho, TL:DR - Whats more important, having fun or degrading in every possible way a certain race that shall not be named ships? Some of the post look more like "you fail at life if you fly that ship, you nerd." post instead of "interesting choice. suit yourself. etc." post. I'm assuming the latter. The problem is that blasters do not work as advertised. I personally love the idea behind blasters; facemelting DPS that requires proper planning/skill to actually apply. The idea that if you manage to fly the ships just right, the other ship will melt. But that's not how blasters work. In practice, it's more along the lines of: If you fly your ship just right (assuming the other guy doesn't screw up) you will win, but just barely. Compare this to the other races, who are more akin (when facing a blaster boat) to: If you fly your ship properly, the other guy won't even be able to touch you, and you start to see the problem.
Debrie	Posted - 2011.04.27 06:23:00 - [94] Edited by: Debrie on 27/04/2011 06:24:34 ehm , more like the skill and cunning to get into optimal range to do pretty much identical dps , to other nations "pointblank" weapon systems (that tear u up from 2-3 times your range) Ive fit a Domi with a full rack of nuetrons (largest bs size blasters available) , then the same Domi set up with a full rack of dual 250 rails (smallest BS size available) , between 12-16 km's THE RAILS outdamage the blasters fine fine blasters are for in close only , but wait Im missing nearly everything orbiting me including BS's so I have the potential to do nearly identical damage as other nations pointblank systems but generally miss because of failtracking inside its optimal .... , off to remount my dual 250 rails to make nuetrons look like junk ps , if you cant tell , I agree Blasters need more tracking and more damage
Leisen	Posted - 2011.05.18 07:08:00 - [95] Originally by: FutureTroll5000 ...and let us say that suddenly blasters were on par with projectiles.. then all you have is Gallente slowness. No one can complain about slowness till they've flown a Rokh. A trimarked dual 1600 plated Mega is faster than a Rokh. Gallente slowness is a myth.
Ephiel Gallente Hello Kitty Space Marines Ewoks	Posted - 2011.05.18 17:57:00 - [96] Your right the Rokh is a hell slower then a Mega. But from the pure concept of the Ships the Rokh is designed as extreme Long Range Sniper. Same like moa/eagle and ferox. So it doasnt need to be fast. The Design of these ships is a High Resistance Shildbuffer Ship with realy long range. and basis in their lines. Well since Railguns are even more ****ed up then blasters and ranged fleet fights don't exist anymore thanks to more than easy scan probing the whole caldari hybrids don't work anymore. So fix hybrids and not just blasters. Make Gallente the well known shortrange blaster ships and caldari hybrids the long range sniper ships. How about give Railguns a new meaning. Make them to penetrate shields and do some small amout of break through dmg in shields or structure. At leasts Railguns from the sense we all know are Weapons fireing small projectiles at ultra high speed. Why not let them penetrate the top defence layer of a ship? So keep the dmg and keep nearly the stats but suddenly railguns have a bit of uniqe advantage. the dont do big dmg or big alpha dmg but can be a anojing enemy for fleet specialised in just one type of logistic and tank. Just a little aproach for railguns that could work on both gallente and caldari. For blasters. I keep thinking that the Weapon itself is OK. The main issu is to get in range and not being kited to death. So my suggestion would be to get some speed/agility bonus of some kind or even better a bonus dedicated to scram range. Its atleast the gallente way if you keep the arazu in mind.
Traejun DiSanctis Caldari	Posted - 2011.05.18 18:04:00 - [97] Originally by: Ephiel Your right the Rokh is a hell slower then a Mega. But from the pure concept of the Ships the Rokh is designed as extreme Long Range Sniper. Same like moa/eagle and ferox. So it doasnt need to be fast. The Design of these ships is a High Resistance Shildbuffer Ship with realy long range. and basis in their lines. Well since Railguns are even more ****ed up then blasters and ranged fleet fights don't exist anymore thanks to more than easy scan probing the whole caldari hybrids don't work anymore. So fix hybrids and not just blasters. Make Gallente the well known shortrange blaster ships and caldari hybrids the long range sniper ships. How about give Railguns a new meaning. Make them to penetrate shields and do some small amout of break through dmg in shields or structure. At leasts Railguns from the sense we all know are Weapons fireing small projectiles at ultra high speed. Why not let them penetrate the top defence layer of a ship? So keep the dmg and keep nearly the stats but suddenly railguns have a bit of uniqe advantage. the dont do big dmg or big alpha dmg but can be a anojing enemy for fleet specialised in just one type of logistic and tank. Just a little aproach for railguns that could work on both gallente and caldari. For blasters. I keep thinking that the Weapon itself is OK. The main issu is to get in range and not being kited to death. So my suggestion would be to get some speed/agility bonus of some kind or even better a bonus dedicated to scram range. Its atleast the gallente way if you keep the arazu in mind. You are right in your comparison - the Rokh and Mega are design to fight in completely opposite ways - sniper vs. puncher. The Blasterokh is a reaction to how crappy rails are, the hull isn't really designed to fit blasters. I also like where your head is at with trying to fix lolrails. I don't think the "penetration" scheme is going to work b/c that would be OP. It would force people to both armor and shield tank since shots were penetrating through the first layer of defense. Basically, over a long timeline, you could see a rail-fit ship destroy a target with full shields/armor. The PvP ramifications would be serious.
Elesaar Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2011.05.18 23:00:00 - [98] Blasters do the most dps, therefor please do not give them the most range as well XD
Kelio Rift Caldari FREE GATES HUN Reloaded	Posted - 2011.05.19 02:00:00 - [99] Well... Blasters DPS suck? Range also sux? http://rax.hunreloaded.hu/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=60547 Tracking is an issue? At extremely close ranges? http://rax.hunreloaded.hu/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=60548 How could these be? Feel free to chew on them... "In a living body, a dead, senseless soul floats, waiting for death, yet cannot laugh..."
Nuniki Percussive Diplomacy	Posted - 2011.05.19 02:32:00 - [100] It's not the guns, it's the ships. Blasters are fine. Blaster boats are BROKEN piles of junk. The ships that depend on blasters (close range) should be able to get INTO close range or at the very least hold someone easily in close range (Bonused webs back to 90%. Remember there wasn't as big of a 'blaster problem' before the web nerf).
Kelio Rift Caldari FREE GATES HUN Reloaded	Posted - 2011.05.19 02:55:00 - [101] Originally by: Nuniki It's not the guns, it's the ships. Blasters are fine. Blaster boats are BROKEN piles of junk. You know that I've completely opposed that with my two mails above? "In a living body, a dead, senseless soul floats, waiting for death, yet cannot laugh..."
Debrie	Posted - 2011.05.19 04:45:00 - [102] ya 2 mails of you blasting your staionery alt , really prove hybrids are great , thnx for your input
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate	Posted - 2011.05.19 05:41:00 - [103] Originally by: Kelio Rift Originally by: Nuniki It's not the guns, it's the ships. Blasters are fine. Blaster boats are BROKEN piles of junk. You know that I've completely opposed that with my two mails above? I posted what, 4? 5? when I gave my example of how awesome the helios is as a pvp ship. Come back with a few more, maybe a solo mail or 2 against something that isn't sporting t1 guns and we can talk about how amazing you think blasters are.
The Djego Minmatar Hellequin Inc.	Posted - 2011.05.19 06:47:00 - [104] Edited by: The Djego on 19/05/2011 06:48:45 Originally by: Kelio Rift Well... Blasters DPS suck? Range also sux? http://rax.hunreloaded.hu/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=60547 Tracking is an issue? At extremely close ranges? http://rax.hunreloaded.hu/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=60548 How could these be? Feel free to chew on them... Hey man, I show you what people fly today for DPS if you want a damage dealer in the gang: Linkage And yes this Pest pilot is fully maxed for the mega to and flown both ships for ages in max gank setups(1350 pest and 1600 DPS mega)as solo ships and small gang gank machines. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
Kelio Rift Caldari FREE GATES HUN Reloaded	Posted - 2011.05.19 07:10:00 - [105] T1 guns fitted or not, that's not my problem. People who can't make blasters work is also not my problem. "In a living body, a dead, senseless soul floats, waiting for death, yet cannot laugh..."
The Djego Minmatar Hellequin Inc.	Posted - 2011.05.19 07:30:00 - [106] Originally by: Kelio Rift T1 guns fitted or not, that's not my problem. People who can't make blasters work is also not my problem. I actually would love to fly the mega again if it would be the damage dealer that it was 2.5 years ago, but today there is no such thing like "make blasters work". Nobody that actually was good with the mega at gank would fly the ship today, for the simple reason that if you can make a mega work you can pawn people with a other ships a lot more effective and if you bring a blaster ship for dps you actually fly the wrong hull in modern pvp engagements. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
Kelio Rift Caldari FREE GATES HUN Reloaded	Posted - 2011.05.19 07:36:00 - [107] Originally by: The Djego modern pvp engagements. Damn, I'm old... And I'm stuck with old fashioned stuff... But I kinda like it... "In a living body, a dead, senseless soul floats, waiting for death, yet cannot laugh..."
The Djego Minmatar Hellequin Inc.	Posted - 2011.05.19 07:56:00 - [108] Originally by: Kelio Rift Originally by: The Djego modern pvp engagements. Damn, I'm old... And I'm stuck with old fashioned stuff... But I kinda like it... Damn now I feel old to. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
Naomi Knight Amarr	Posted - 2011.05.19 07:58:00 - [109] Originally by: Debrie ya 2 mails of you blasting your staionery alt , really prove hybrids are great , thnx for your input whooa do you think it doesnt prove that hybrids are awesome ?:O it fully convinced me that only 99% of the players sux not the ship/weapon itself , as you can see in the killmails both blaster ships and blasters are very viable choices for everyday pvp btw how the hell did mega outdmg fellow poor matar ships by that much? maybe ccp should think about nerfing those blasters to be in line with matar dps +1 for nerfing blasters they are way too good for pvp
Kelio Rift Caldari FREE GATES HUN Reloaded	Posted - 2011.05.19 08:12:00 - [110] Originally by: Naomi Knight btw how the hell did mega outdmg fellow poor matar ships by that much? Thermo Dynamics 5 + Your Standard 3 Magstab Neutron fit "In a living body, a dead, senseless soul floats, waiting for death, yet cannot laugh..."
Sable Schroedinger Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2011.05.19 08:42:00 - [111] I think the thing that turned me against blasters ultimately was repeated experiments with Titan hot drops. I'm not talking one or two, I'm talking a fair few over a number of months (we had a new toy and the law of TOY states you just have to play with them!). ThereÆs no real pilot skill needed in this bit of silliness (so we can exclude that), its just pop through a portal, dropping you about 2k from a scrammed and webbed target, lock and fire and try to kill it before it can dock or whatever. Now at the beginning, I would have expected in this scenario a gank fit Neutron Mega should top the table comfortably every time, its pretty much the perfect scenario for it. However, time and again this wasnÆt the case. Yes, MegaÆs were invariably in the top end of damage dealers, but often they were not top and in the case where they were it was not by much (Amrrian ships did exceptionally well in these drops). This pretty much convinced me that the DPS advantage of blasters was not as significant (or even real) as is believed. This most likely comes from the natively high Kin/therm (mostly Kin) resists of most ships (excluding T2 Mini shield tankers û those ships that kite blasters for fun so have a greater resist to the weapon type) negating the on paper DPS and also based on a significant amount of the famed DPS of ships like the mega coming from drones (which are a pain to launch and get on the target in titan hot drops) not the guns. So, are blasters high DPS when they get into their ideal range? Most certainly. Are they face meltingly better than longer range weapons (pulse lasers for example)? Apparently not. -------------------------------------------- SF Recruiting
Kelio Rift Caldari FREE GATES HUN Reloaded	Posted - 2011.05.19 10:27:00 - [112] Edited by: Kelio Rift on 19/05/2011 10:29:50 Originally by: Sable Schroedinger So, are blasters high DPS when they get into their ideal range? Most certainly. Are they face meltingly better than longer range weapons (pulse lasers for example)? Apparently not. Well, not face melting better, but better than the afore mentioned Lazorz. Here's a scenario where everyone had the same chances. My ship was not fit for ultimate gank, nor any damage mods. Not even neutrons, just ions packed with some electrons (PG issues... oh well). See the first battleship after the mommies and dreads. http://rax.hunreloaded.hu/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=59514 "In a living body, a dead, senseless soul floats, waiting for death, yet cannot laugh..."
Swynet	Posted - 2011.05.19 10:40:00 - [113] There are so many factors at each and every engagement, most of them negate blaster boats and only a few can make you succeed. MY Gallente toon has "almost" perfect hybrid skills and I don't pretend being master on using them but once you've used a cane, even armour tanked local rep, you leave your Mega at the hangar not only for the cost (I build my own ships/rigs and all meta4 comes from my missions stock so it's not expensive). The fight circumstances are determinative for the blaster mega, his window of succeeding his goal is very tight while the cane will do almost the same dps (most KM's the difference is very small). When an higher tier BC Minie is overall better than the 2nd tiers Gallente BS for 1/4th of it's price, skill training, it's dumb to use something else but there's fundamentally something wrong either in the concept either in the game mechanics. Solutions? - nerf other ships or mechanics is not a good solution, the simple fact of improving the survivability and dmg application of blaster hulls will negate a part of the overall advantage in every situation of other weapons or hulls, it's a better choice imho. Now how to do this when scorch pulses and auto canons fill the same job are in the same idea concept of close range weapons and how make them different? -not impossible but the one who will bring the final solution either is a total fool or a genius.
kyrv	Posted - 2011.05.19 14:05:00 - [114] There still op you just like everyone else have to buy faction and implants and then actually use vindicator instead.
Sable Schroedinger Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2011.05.19 14:06:00 - [115] Originally by: Kelio Rift Edited by: Kelio Rift on 19/05/2011 10:29:50 Well, not face melting better, but better than the afore mentioned Lazorz. Here's a scenario where everyone had the same chances. My ship was not fit for ultimate gank, nor any damage mods. Not even neutrons, just ions packed with some electrons (PG issues... oh well). See the first battleship after the mommies and dreads. http://rax.hunreloaded.hu/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=59514 Please tell me you're not using the fact that a pirate BS out damaged 3 normal amarrian BSs (who in turn out damaged a normal mega) as justification for blasters being OK? -------------------------------------------- SF Recruiting
Swynet	Posted - 2011.05.19 14:57:00 - [116] Originally by: Kelio Rift http://rax.hunreloaded.hu/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=59514 1st Bs faction pirate serpentis 2nd Bs Tiers 3 Tech 1 Amarr Bs Dps diff between both: 10K +/- Engagement conditions for each: Unknown Engagement time/dps for each: Unknown I'd like to see what a Machariel or Bhaalgorn are capable of with same kind of gank fit and under strict same conditions fight time/op distace. I already know the answer but would be fun to see it.
Kelio Rift Caldari FREE GATES HUN Reloaded	Posted - 2011.05.19 16:32:00 - [117] Originally by: Swynet I'd like to see what a Machariel or Bhaalgorn are capable of with same kind of gank fit and under strict same conditions fight time/op distace. I already know the answer but would be fun to see it. Nothing. They leave behind like every other. Accept the fact that 99% of the community in eve can't and never will be able to handle blasters. If you can't handle them, go fly something else, and stop trying to convince people that blasters are bad. As of conditions, I told you it was same chances for everyone. Btw, out damaging a Rail mega is not a difficult thing. "In a living body, a dead, senseless soul floats, waiting for death, yet cannot laugh..."
Sable Schroedinger Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2011.05.19 18:32:00 - [118] since his weapon showing was a Garde II, how were we meant to know that? -------------------------------------------- SF Recruiting
Kelio Rift Caldari FREE GATES HUN Reloaded	Posted - 2011.05.19 19:35:00 - [119] Now why the hell would a blaster fitted close range ship use Setries? "In a living body, a dead, senseless soul floats, waiting for death, yet cannot laugh..."
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate	Posted - 2011.05.19 20:51:00 - [120] Originally by: Kelio Rift Well, not face melting better, but better than the afore mentioned Lazorz. Here's a scenario where everyone had the same chances. My ship was not fit for ultimate gank, nor any damage mods. Not even neutrons, just ions packed with some electrons (PG issues... oh well). See the first battleship after the mommies and dreads. Couple things wrong with this post: 1)The vindicator is a great ship. It is EXACTLY what most blaster ships SHOULD be; facemelting DPS at close range, and the ability to actually maintain that range (and without terribad tracking issues) in realistic circumstances. Even though it's not as good as the bhaal or mach for pvp it still has a legitimate niche in which it performs notably better than its other-racial counterparts. 2)You mention a rail mega, how do we know the amarrian BSs there aren't beam fit? (For an added treat, compare a megabeam abaddon vs a rail vindi for raw gun DPS) 3)You're comparing a faction BS to t1 BSs, on a target the size of a moon that sits perfectly still, completely ignoring the fact that had that been a regular megathron, you'd only be doing about 7-8% more raw DPS, which is pitiful for a ship that has so many problems wrt tracking and range.
Kelio Rift Caldari FREE GATES HUN Reloaded	Posted - 2011.05.19 22:36:00 - [121] So now you say that blasters are bad because you have to put more effort to them to work properly? That doesn't prove blasters are bad, it just proves that people trying to use blasters aren't experienced enough to make them work like they should. After these many arguments I've seen here, I still say that blasters are fine, those who don't want to put effort into them to make them work, fine by me. Fly whatever ship you want to, just don't whine about blasters. "In a living body, a dead, senseless soul floats, waiting for death, yet cannot laugh..."
Swynet	Posted - 2011.05.19 23:00:00 - [122] Edited by: Swynet on 19/05/2011 23:05:34 Originally by: Kelio Rift So now you say that blasters are bad because you have to put more effort to them to work properly? That doesn't prove blasters are bad, it just proves that people trying to use blasters aren't experienced enough to make them work like they should. After these many arguments I've seen here, I still say that blasters are fine, those who don't want to put effort into them to make them work, fine by me. Fly whatever ship you want to, just don't whine about blasters. Hell you seem pretty good with blaster stuff http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=Kelio+Rift At least a very good client for those who sell them joke heh Tss tss tss your last duel was terribad tho.
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate	Posted - 2011.05.19 23:26:00 - [123] Originally by: Kelio Rift So now you say that blasters are bad because you have to put more effort to them to work properly? That doesn't prove blasters are bad, it just proves that people trying to use blasters aren't experienced enough to make them work like they should. No, what I'm saying is that for the same amount of effort/skill, you will get MUCH better results out of a laser or projectile ship. The idea is that at any given skill level, a laser/proj (even missiles) will outperform a blaster ship. You can't look at a kill you got one time when the other guy was miles behind you in SP and experience and decide based on that that blasters are fine. If you want to discuss balance, you have to assume that everyone fighting has equal skills, because any imbalanced ship/weapon can be beaten/used well if the gap in skill levels is high enough, that goes without saying. The mega/geddon comparison I keep coming back to is especially bad. The geddon does 8% less raw damage if both ships are in optimal. If we're talking about the geddon's optimal, the mega does about HALF the DPS of the geddon (comparing short range ammos here). The range at which the 2 ships do the exact same DPS? 7km. That's HALF the range of an overheated t2 web, and well within even un-heated web range. A geddon ODing a mega in web range is a very, VERY big problem, given that the geddon has more EHP, and can INSTANTLY swap out to 45km optimal with scorch to engage things farther out. Originally by: Kelio Rift After these many arguments I've seen here, I still say that blasters are fine, those who don't want to put effort into them to make them work, fine by me. Fly whatever ship you want to, just don't whine about blasters. People will continue to whine about blasters until they stop sucking. There's mountains of evidence suggesting they suck, and your whopping 2 killmails (a gank and a 1 on 1 vs a dude in a t1 fit BC) don't even come close to SUGGESTING that they don't.
Kelio Rift Caldari FREE GATES HUN Reloaded	Posted - 2011.05.20 00:27:00 - [124] Originally by: Swynet Tss tss tss your last duel was terribad tho. Yeah, poor phoon got rr from Amarrian locals. "In a living body, a dead, senseless soul floats, waiting for death, yet cannot laugh..."
Kelio Rift Caldari FREE GATES HUN Reloaded	Posted - 2011.05.20 00:47:00 - [125] BTW, there's one thing I can't really understand... why is the Vindicator the only ship that can meka blasters shine? It has the very same tracking bonus as the Mega, and it has only 37,5% damage bonus (7,5% per level, only diff it gets it no matter what). "In a living body, a dead, senseless soul floats, waiting for death, yet cannot laugh..."
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate	Posted - 2011.05.20 01:14:00 - [126] Originally by: Kelio Rift BTW, there's one thing I can't really understand... why is the Vindicator the only ship that can meka blasters shine? It has the very same tracking bonus as the Mega, and it has only 37,5% damage bonus (7,5% per level, only diff it gets it no matter what). Extra turret for one, but the biggest thing is the 90% webs. They make void usable with decent reliability, and let the vindi actually hold things that it catches. The vindi really is **** compared to the other pirate faction BSs (the good ones anyway) but it's much better than other blaster ships.
Kelio Rift Caldari FREE GATES HUN Reloaded	Posted - 2011.05.20 02:11:00 - [127] Edited by: Kelio Rift on 20/05/2011 02:14:18 Originally by: Cambarus The vindi really is sh!t compared to the other pirate faction BSs (the good ones anyway) Well, a bit off topic... I had some fails too, but this made me laugh... http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=13131160 Also this one... http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=13059044 "In a living body, a dead, senseless soul floats, waiting for death, yet cannot laugh..."
The Djego Minmatar Hellequin Inc.	Posted - 2011.05.20 07:30:00 - [128] Originally by: Kelio Rift After these many arguments I've seen here, I still say that blasters are fine, those who don't want to put effort into them to make them work, fine by me. Fly whatever ship you want to, just don't whine about blasters. The effort in pvp should start with picking the right ship for the job, and there isn't really a job where the blaster ship would be a good choice(except hugging undocks). It is to slow, it is just bad at any possible combat range(including close range), it is a cap hug, expensive to fit(cpu), primary in every fight, a glass cannon in any fit that actually provides a damage advantage at all, has not gtfo and in the end not even the ship you want to bring as a damage dealer in your gang, because other ships do this far more relay able outside the "everything starts at zero, everything hits for full damage" illusion many people have in pvp. If you put said effort into your pvp you will out damage it in next to every fight with a proper flown med range damage dealer. It is to weak to justifies his own use in his niche(what is solo/small scale DD) and pretty much pointless outside of it. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
baltec1	Posted - 2011.05.20 07:37:00 - [129] Originally by: The Djego Originally by: Kelio Rift After these many arguments I've seen here, I still say that blasters are fine, those who don't want to put effort into them to make them work, fine by me. Fly whatever ship you want to, just don't whine about blasters. The effort in pvp should start with picking the right ship for the job, and there isn't really a job where the blaster ship would be a good choice(except hugging undocks). It is to slow, it is just bad at any possible combat range(including close range), it is a cap hug, expensive to fit(cpu), primary in every fight, a glass cannon in any fit that actually provides a damage advantage at all, has not gtfo and in the end not even the ship you want to bring as a damage dealer in your gang, because other ships do this far more relay able outside the "everything starts at zero, everything hits for full damage" illusion many people have in pvp. If you put said effort into your pvp you will out damage it in next to every fight with a proper flown med range damage dealer. It is to weak to justifies his own use in his niche(what is solo/small scale DD) and pretty much pointless outside of it. If its so bad why do people primary it rather than all of the "good" ships?
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate	Posted - 2011.05.20 12:40:00 - [130] Originally by: baltec1 If its so bad why do people primary it rather than all of the "good" ships? Easy kills and/or bad FCs
Pod Amarr	Posted - 2011.05.20 12:49:00 - [131] Originally by: Cambarus Originally by: baltec1 If its so bad why do people primary it rather than all of the "good" ships? Easy kills and/or bad FCs It is more that if you neglect it it will put a lot of hurt when it "eventually" gets in range. So it is perfectly logical to take out the Glass cannon that would do a lot of damage if left alone on approach before the "good ships". Pod
baltec1	Posted - 2011.05.20 13:13:00 - [132] Originally by: Cambarus Originally by: baltec1 If its so bad why do people primary it rather than all of the "good" ships? Easy kills and/or bad FCs Well considering most gal ships get just as much tank as any other race It cant be for easy kills. Which means that your only other explanation is our friend here flys in terrible gangs.
Sable Schroedinger Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2011.05.20 13:21:00 - [133] um... Gal and Mini ships have sginificantly weaker tanks than Cal and Amarr -------------------------------------------- SF Recruiting
baltec1	Posted - 2011.05.20 13:30:00 - [134] Originally by: Sable Schroedinger um... Gal and Mini ships have sginificantly weaker tanks than Cal and Amarr Yet mini ships kill amarr all the time.
Sable Schroedinger Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2011.05.20 13:35:00 - [135] Looking at some fairly cooki cutter fits (nothing too out there): Neutron Mega vs Mega Pulse Abbaddon (yes, I know its a tier 3 vs Tier 2, but if we put the Hyp in here it'd look even worse for Gal) EHP 110,774 vs 165,979 = Mega 33.3% less tank Weapon DPS 832 vs 713 = Mega 14.4% more damage With Drones 1148 vs 871 = Mega 24.4 more damage -------------------------------------------- SF Recruiting
Sable Schroedinger Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2011.05.20 13:42:00 - [136] Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: Sable Schroedinger um... Gal and Mini ships have sginificantly weaker tanks than Cal and Amarr Yet mini ships kill amarr all the time. ...yes, but theres more to this than EHP, there is also speed and range (as mentioned in this thread and many of its equivelents) -------------------------------------------- SF Recruiting
Mekhana Gallente Spiritus Draconis	Posted - 2011.05.20 13:49:00 - [137] ITT: People that want to see more variety in EVE People that troll the hell out them
baltec1	Posted - 2011.05.20 14:07:00 - [138] Originally by: Sable Schroedinger ...yes, but theres more to this than EHP, there is also speed and range (as mentioned in this thread and many of its equivelents) Ineed, which is why a thorax can beat the snot out of an abaddon. I should have known someone would being out the abaddon and its buffer which is by far the best while also being among the most sluggish. Hence why you never see them roaming in brick mode.
Sable Schroedinger Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2011.05.20 14:10:00 - [139] have updated the figures above, as somehow my cooki cutter Abbaddon fit in EFT got a RR put on it so it wasn't using all its turrets -------------------------------------------- SF Recruiting
The Djego Minmatar Hellequin Inc.	Posted - 2011.05.20 14:44:00 - [140] Edited by: The Djego on 20/05/2011 14:47:34 Originally by: baltec1 A thorax gang is still very viable and blaster vexors even more so. That is preaty retarted, seriously, last time I flown in a comedy ganknight with cruisers only you had Arti ruptures and puls Zealots/Omen on top of every single killmail. http://dass.griefwatch.net/index.php?p=details&kill=45666 http://dass.griefwatch.net/index.php?p=details&kill=45637 http://dass.griefwatch.net/index.php?p=details&kill=45639 So yeah, your point? ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
baltec1	Posted - 2011.05.20 14:51:00 - [141] Edited by: baltec1 on 20/05/2011 14:53:25 Originally by: The Djego So yeah, your point? lets see. Thats not a vexor/rax gang? They were terrible pilots? The didnt arrive with the rest of the fleet? They fit them wrong? Learn to rax tbh
The Djego Minmatar Hellequin Inc.	Posted - 2011.05.20 15:00:00 - [142] Edited by: The Djego on 20/05/2011 15:01:22 Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: The Djego So yeah, your point? lets see. Thats not a vexor/rax gang? They were terrible pilots? The didnt arrive with the rest of the fleet? They fit them wrong? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGAjymmeYkg Learn to rax tbh Alliance tournament(even from the time before the QR sledgehammer nerf), this is all you got? FYI there is a reason people prefer alpha and range in gangs and for this simple reason blaster fitted ships are kind of bad for most gangs. Also for the same reason I was in a Rupture and not in a Thorax for this gang. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
baltec1	Posted - 2011.05.20 15:09:00 - [143] Originally by: The Djego Learn to rax tbh Alliance tournament(even from the time before the QR sledgehammer nerf), this is all you got? Comming from someone who doesnt fly the ship as gives examples of bad pilots not managing to outdamage pirate ships? What happened in that vid was a mob of rax burned 70km at a speed my rax can go and ripped apart a supposedly invincble setup flown by "elite pvpers". Not even the bad tracking you keep claiming saved those frigates.
The Djego Minmatar Hellequin Inc.	Posted - 2011.05.20 15:16:00 - [144] Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: The Djego Learn to rax tbh Alliance tournament(even from the time before the QR sledgehammer nerf), this is all you got? Comming from someone who doesnt fly the ship as gives examples of bad pilots not managing to outdamage pirate ships? What happened in that vid was a mob of rax burned 70km at a speed my rax can go and ripped apart a supposedly invincble setup flown by "elite pvpers". Not even the bad tracking you keep claiming saved those frigates. This is me vs the Wrong Alliance Leader(that also was in AT multiple times): Linkage Your point? ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
baltec1	Posted - 2011.05.20 15:20:00 - [145] Edited by: baltec1 on 20/05/2011 15:21:26 Originally by: The Djego Your point? You are doing a fine job of making it for me. Rax once again wins Originally by: The Djego You know how alliance tournament works and that it is a bit different than the PVP on TQ do you? Yes. Normaly you only have to burn 16km.
The Djego Minmatar Hellequin Inc.	Posted - 2011.05.20 15:25:00 - [146] Edited by: The Djego on 20/05/2011 15:26:56 Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: The Djego Your point? You are doing a fine job of making it for me. Rax once again wins This is from 2008, from a time where any Thorax was as good as a Vigilant is todday, most cruisers where paper thin nano builds and stuff wasn't slow as hell. Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: The Djego You know how alliance tournament works and that it is a bit different than the PVP on TQ do you? Yes. Normaly you only have to burn 16km. I get it you are just trolling me, gj mate. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
baltec1	Posted - 2011.05.20 15:38:00 - [147] Originally by: The Djego I get it you are just trolling me, gj mate. True, you make it too easy. However the rax is not as gimped as many try to make out here. Its a balls to the wall ship, very fun to fly and fully able to kill. A good gang of them is still deadly. The vexor is also just as fun and packs quite a whack. I enjoy them and they work for me. Get them buffed and Ill have even more fun and for once will have the FOTM right from the start.
The Djego Minmatar Hellequin Inc.	Posted - 2011.05.20 15:40:00 - [148] Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: The Djego I get it you are just trolling me, gj mate. True, you make it too easy. However the rax is not as gimped as many try to make out here. Its a balls to the wall ship, very fun to fly and fully able to kill. A good gang of them is still deadly. The vexor is also just as fun and packs quite a whack. I enjoy them and they work for me. Get them buffed and Ill have even more fun and for once will have the FOTM right from the start. So you are not a troll, but just a ****? Got you. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by:** Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2011.05.20 16:16:00 - [149] Originally by: The Djego This is from 2008, from a time where any Thorax was as good as a Vigilant is today, most cruisers where paper thin nano builds and stuff wasn't slow as hell. Actually, back in 2008 before QR, the speed difference between a Thorax and its targets was much greater than today, because all of its targets were nanoed. You keep on parroting this line about pre-QR being some sort of blaster golden age, but it just isn't true, not until you go back to 2006-2007 anyway, because immediately before QR was when everything was nanoed to hell and blaster boats found it even harder to get in range than they do today.
Kelio Rift Caldari FREE GATES HUN Reloaded	Posted - 2011.05.20 17:03:00 - [150] Don't mention the Thorax/Megathron/Vindicator/Taranis/Daredevil or any epic blasterboats that can be, and must be fitted with blasters, and still are able to kill stuff equiped with other weapon platforms. If you personally like blasters, just pray to god the many whiners get what they want ("fixing" blasters, which aren't broken, they just need some other tactics to handle) and CCP buffs them. Then they will, and hell I'm sure they will, whine about blasters because they are OP. "In a living body, a dead, senseless soul floats, waiting for death, yet cannot laugh..."
baltec1	Posted - 2011.05.20 17:14:00 - [151] Originally by: Kelio Rift Don't mention the Thorax/Megathron/Vindicator/Taranis/Daredevil or any epic blasterboats that can be, and must be fitted with blasters, and still are able to kill stuff equiped with other weapon platforms. If you personally like blasters, just pray to god the many whiners get what they want ("fixing" blasters, which aren't broken, they just need some other tactics to handle) and CCP buffs them. Then they will, and hell I'm sure they will, whine about blasters because they are OP. The days of the super rax shall be glorious
Sable Schroedinger Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2011.05.20 18:11:00 - [152] Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: The Djego Learn to rax tbh Alliance tournament(even from the time before the QR sledgehammer nerf), this is all you got? Comming from someone who doesnt fly the ship as gives examples of bad pilots not managing to outdamage pirate ships? What happened in that vid was a mob of rax burned 70km at a speed my rax can go and ripped apart a supposedly invincble setup flown by "elite pvpers". Not even the bad tracking you keep claiming saved those frigates. Such fond memories :) The sad thing is, these days we'd have mostly likely done it with Ruptures as the overwhelming DPS of the thorax has been eaten into so much. Remember, BOB relied on overwhelming EW, with solid logistics and only a small number of DPS ships (a raven and drake from memory). The ECM drones were more key to the engagement than the ships (so the rax's ability to carry 5 medium ECM drones is main point of the ship, rather than blasters) as they were used to perm jam the guardian (well, near as damn it). The rax's then just ganked the rook (iirc), with that and the guardian out of the way, the rest was just an old school gank - which is what the rax did, and still does really well. Basically, imo, if you want to swarm (all warp in and shoot someone) a rax still has no equal. If you want to fight on any other terms (including a gate fight), then the rupture is the way to go. In all, if some blunt mass buff is applied to blasters, then I agree that blaster risk becoming over powered as its the product of a few years worth of minor tweaks to the game that have brought us to the point we are now. For me, the key changes I would actually like to see are a rolling back of the pulse laser tracking buff and a review of the boost from tracking enhancers - I think 15% optimal and 30% fall off on a TE II went too far. A look at active tanking and rig draw backs wouldn't go amiss either, as I can't think of any rigs usable on a blaster boat, who's drawback doesn't disproportionately nerf the boats combat style. -------------------------------------------- SF Recruiting
baltec1	Posted - 2011.05.20 18:21:00 - [153] Originally by: Sable Schroedinger Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: The Djego Learn to rax tbh Alliance tournament(even from the time before the QR sledgehammer nerf), this is all you got? Comming from someone who doesnt fly the ship as gives examples of bad pilots not managing to outdamage pirate ships? What happened in that vid was a mob of rax burned 70km at a speed my rax can go and ripped apart a supposedly invincble setup flown by "elite pvpers". Not even the bad tracking you keep claiming saved those frigates. Such fond memories :) The sad thing is, these days we'd have mostly likely done it with Ruptures as the overwhelming DPS of the thorax has been eaten into so much. Remember, BOB relied on overwhelming EW, with solid logistics and only a small number of DPS ships (a raven and drake from memory). The ECM drones were more key to the engagement than the ships (so the rax's ability to carry 5 medium ECM drones is main point of the ship, rather than blasters) as they were used to perm jam the guardian (well, near as damn it). The rax's then just ganked the rook (iirc), with that and the guardian out of the way, the rest was just an old school gank - which is what the rax did, and still does really well. Hell, I still use those tactics. Your fight is what made me into the madman I am today. The buff this lot want can only make me 20% cooler so while I argue blasters are not as bad as they try to make it seem, I do want all of that power they argue for
The Djego Minmatar Hellequin Inc.	Posted - 2011.05.20 18:35:00 - [154] Originally by: Gypsio III Originally by: The Djego This is from 2008, from a time where any Thorax was as good as a Vigilant is today, most cruisers where paper thin nano builds and stuff wasn't slow as hell. Actually, back in 2008 before QR, the speed difference between a Thorax and its targets was much greater than today, because all of its targets were nanoed. You keep on parroting this line about pre-QR being some sort of blaster golden age, but it just isn't true, not until you go back to 2006-2007 anyway, because immediately before QR was when everything was nanoed to hell and blaster boats found it even harder to get in range than they do today. It wasn't the golden age of blaster pvp(as you mentioned in another thread it was mostly a niche thing and not very popular). However QR was the point where CCP removed the last things blaster pvp had going for itself for actually skilled use(being good at point blank pvp, the ability to do quick kills and gtfo and the ability that tackling you at web range was sudden death to the tackler in most cases). What most people often overlook is that getting in range simply was something that did give you a massive advantage in a stand up fight against the majority of rather light tanked targets. I for myself would switch back to pre QR pvp any day of the week, what is actually pretty funny since I in general prefer nanoed hulls this days for here ability to force stuff into a fight and have a ok damage projection at her range. I agree that the days where blaster pvp where really powerful was 2006 before the HP boost and the introduction of rigs, where a 1400m/s mega was actually as lethal as it fame would make you believe. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
Naomi Knight Amarr	Posted - 2011.05.20 20:24:00 - [155] Originally by: Kelio Rift Don't mention the Thorax/Megathron/Vindicator/Taranis/Daredevil or any epic blasterboats that can be, and must be fitted with blasters, and still are able to kill stuff equiped with other weapon platforms. If you personally like blasters, just pray to god the many whiners get what they want ("fixing" blasters, which aren't broken, they just need some other tactics to handle) and CCP buffs them. Then they will, and hell I'm sure they will, whine about blasters because they are OP. so only caldari hybrid boats need a boost then?:O
Vmir Gallahasen Gallente United Mining And Distribution	Posted - 2011.05.20 21:43:00 - [156] Originally by: Kelio Rift If you personally like blasters, just pray to god the many whiners get what they want ("fixing" blasters, which aren't broken, they just need some other tactics to handle) and CCP buffs them. Then they will, and hell I'm sure they will, whine about blasters because they are OP. A quick glance through battleclinic suggests that hybrids are all you can use. What makes you think blasters are okay when you don't have any personal experience with anything else? I too love blasters and gallente, but since I can use projectiles there's rarely a time when a non-drone gallente ship is called for when I can fly a minmatar ship that does the same thing but better
Kelio Rift Caldari FREE GATES HUN Reloaded	Posted - 2011.05.20 21:47:00 - [157] Originally by: Naomi Knight so only caldari hybrid boats need a boost then?:O As Hybrid, there are two platforms, Railguns and Blasters. Caldari tend to use Railguns, not Blasters. Sure there are some interesting Blaster setups, because some Caldari ships have nice bonus to range, but no bonus to damage and tracking. Caldari iz zi missile/ECM race, let that be their stuff. But if this was because you want caldari more able to fit blasters, then ask for bonuses that are related to them... I suppose that's gonna be the next thread... Btw, some ship/rig modifications would be nice... :P I really liked my 1400m/s Megathron. "In a living body, a dead, senseless soul floats, waiting for death, yet cannot laugh..."
Kelio Rift Caldari FREE GATES HUN Reloaded	Posted - 2011.05.20 21:51:00 - [158] Edited by: Kelio Rift on 20/05/2011 21:54:37 Originally by: Vmir Gallahasen A quick glance through battleclinic suggests that hybrids are all you can use. Large Artillery Specialization (8x) SP: 362,039 / 2,048,000 Level 4 Large Autocannon Specialization (8x) SP: 362,039 / 2,048,000 Level 4 Large Blaster Specialization (8x) SP: 362,039 / 2,048,000 Level 4 Large Energy Turret (5x) SP: 40,000 / 226,275 Level 3 Large Hybrid Turret (5x) SP: 1,280,000 Level 5 Large Projectile Turret (5x) SP: 1,280,000 Level 5 Large Railgun Specialization (8x) SP: 362,039 / 2,048,000 Level 4 Medium Artillery Specialization (5x) SP: 226,275 / 1,280,000 Level 4 Medium Autocannon Specialization (5x) SP: 226,275 / 1,280,000 Level 4 Medium Beam Laser Specialization (5x) SP: 226,275 / 1,280,000 Level 4 Medium Blaster Specialization (5x) SP: 226,275 / 1,280,000 Level 4 Medium Energy Turret (3x) SP: 768,000 Level 5 Medium Hybrid Turret (3x) SP: 768,000 Level 5 Medium Projectile Turret (3x) SP: 768,000 Level 5 Medium Pulse Laser Specialization (5x) SP: 226,275 / 1,280,000 Level 4 Medium Railgun Specialization (5x) SP: 226,275 / 1,280,000 Level 4 "In a living body, a dead, senseless soul floats, waiting for death, yet cannot laugh..."
Kelio Rift Caldari FREE GATES HUN Reloaded	Posted - 2011.05.20 21:56:00 - [159] Edited by: Kelio Rift on 20/05/2011 21:56:08 A linkage to a killboard that contains all my Fa!l and W!n: http://genos.killmail.org/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=40313&view=ships_weapons So, Blasters ROCK! "In a living body, a dead, senseless soul floats, waiting for death, yet cannot laugh..."
baltec1	Posted - 2011.05.20 22:10:00 - [160] Currently out in my mega roaming with cruisers
Kelio Rift Caldari FREE GATES HUN Reloaded	Posted - 2011.05.20 22:23:00 - [161] I did that with my Vindicator, was fun until an Armageddon cyno dropped it with Bombers. Almost the same happened when I returned to the game and didn't notice that the Vindi got an 8th gunslot... but that time it was a Drake and a pack of blackops... "In a living body, a dead, senseless soul floats, waiting for death, yet cannot laugh..."
baltec1	Posted - 2011.05.20 23:00:00 - [162] Originally by: Kelio Rift I did that with my Vindicator, was fun until an Armageddon cyno dropped it with Bombers. Almost the same happened when I returned to the game and didn't notice that the Vindi got an 8th gunslot... but that time it was a Drake and a pack of blackops... Got her home safely and with lots of nice mails As terrible as this fit looks, its a hell of a lot of fun
Kelio Rift Caldari FREE GATES HUN Reloaded	Posted - 2011.05.21 04:53:00 - [163] (Working!!) Link to your KB or we won't beleive you!!! Seriously, I tried to dig 'em up, but no success, and BC is kinda broken... (Battleclinic's broken?! OMG FIXFIXFIX!!!) Also tell us your strategy that made your ship/weapon system work. (Not like I don't know the stuff, but many people don't know) "In a living body, a dead, senseless soul floats, waiting for death, yet cannot laugh..."
baltec1	Posted - 2011.05.21 08:52:00 - [164] Originally by: Kelio Rift (Working!!) Link to your KB or we won't beleive you!!! Seriously, I tried to dig 'em up, but no success, and BC is kinda broken... (Battleclinic's broken?! OMG FIXFIXFIX!!!) Also tell us your strategy that made your ship/weapon system work. (Not like I don't know the stuff, but many people don't know) Use EVE-Kill.net the kills start with the brutix As for tactics. She be nano shield mega which when given speed bonus by a command ships goes 1200m/s and has crazy tracking and the agility to to warp around faster than a plated curse. Not as much range as my hyperion though which cost me getting top damage on the leigion as it was on the very edge of my range. It answers every problem, it has the speed to get in range, it has the tracking to apply the damage and it has the buffer to keep it alive. I do however like the hyperion more but the mega in the same roll is better than I thought it would be so I could use it as a cheaper option.
Gabriel Karade Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2011.05.21 11:50:00 - [165] I've got roughly twice as many kills with my blasterthron then any other ship I've ever flown. In fact, for almost 3 years it was the ONLY ship I flew. I don't fly a blasterthon anymore, can't even remember when I last took one out of the hanger, because they're about as much use as a chocolate fireguard these days. p.s. no I'm not just a 'bitter vet', plus blaster-boats were never 'overpowered'. -------------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Chuc Morris	Posted - 2011.05.21 12:07:00 - [166] It's pretty fun to read dozens or hundreds of guys saying those ships/weapon system is broken somehow and then read some guy here not knowing at all of what he's talking about saying they're OP, another showing he's e-peen stuff "yeah I'm better than you all" etc. The first one -not knowing what he's talking about is just dumb, the second one is just an idiot, and all other complaining are maybe under skilled or maybe just reasonable people thinking about the greater good and not just their own black hole. Will never understand why those guys thinking they're better than every one waste time blah blah'ing. They're happy, fine, pass this thread go to the next one or make a real wall of text clearly understandable with numbers IG, actual videos etc etc, fitting advices WITH MODS THOSE SHIPS WERE INTENDED TO USE, just prove the gun systems and the ships using them are fine and don't need balance: The mega blaster was intended to be flown with shield fits of just in gangs with logis/tacklers, the rails version is not intended to be competitive vs other guns type, armour skills are useless and should be removed from the game, blasters and rails are fine and show why people using them can't make them work properly or be competitive, vs their counter parts etc etc. Do you really use gas-oil on you car when your engine is made and intended to use gasoline?
Vmir Gallahasen Gallente United Mining And Distribution	Posted - 2011.05.21 12:07:00 - [167] Originally by: Kelio Rift Large Artillery Specialization (8x) SP: 362,039 / 2,048,000 Level 4 Large Autocannon Specialization (8x) SP: 362,039 / 2,048,000 ... Dumb luck I guess, I looked through 10 or 12 killmails on BC and saw only gallente ships. It wasn't that unreasonable an assumption though by your attitude
Rodion Romanovich Raskolnikov	Posted - 2011.05.21 22:37:00 - [168] If blasters were suddenly fixed... ...I'd look up to see the pigs barrel-rolling and looping through the skies.
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate	Posted - 2011.05.22 16:50:00 - [169] Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: Kelio Rift (Working!!) Link to your KB or we won't beleive you!!! Seriously, I tried to dig 'em up, but no success, and BC is kinda broken... (Battleclinic's broken?! OMG FIXFIXFIX!!!) Also tell us your strategy that made your ship/weapon system work. (Not like I don't know the stuff, but many people don't know) Use EVE-Kill.net the kills start with the brutix As for tactics. She be nano shield mega which when given speed bonus by a command ships goes 1200m/s and has crazy tracking and the agility to to warp around faster than a plated curse. Not as much range as my hyperion though which cost me getting top damage on the leigion as it was on the very edge of my range. It answers every problem, it has the speed to get in range, it has the tracking to apply the damage and it has the buffer to keep it alive. I will say that I find the high-fiving/circle jerking thing you 2 have going to be quite entertaining, but I do have one question wrt your megathron: You're flying in a gang of nano ships, and a gang in which pretty much everyone that's not a logi and not you is using ACs. How exactly does your AC heavy gang doing well suggest that blasters are good? Come back when you take a fleet of blaster ships out and win some good fights, because all those mails show is that a mega can OD cruisers, and that AC-heavy gangs are good for pvp.
baltec1	Posted - 2011.05.22 19:01:00 - [170] Originally by: Cambarus I will say that I find the high-fiving/circle jerking thing you 2 have going to be quite entertaining, but I do have one question wrt your megathron: You're flying in a gang of nano ships, and a gang in which pretty much everyone that's not a logi and not you is using ACs. How exactly does your AC heavy gang doing well suggest that blasters are good? Come back when you take a fleet of blaster ships out and win some good fights, because all those mails show is that a mega can OD cruisers, and that AC-heavy gangs are good for pvp. It also shows the mega can keep up with some of the quickest ships in the game AND has the range and tracking to apply its damage to be usefull to said gang. Thus busting 3 of the myths you belive in.
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate	Posted - 2011.05.22 19:45:00 - [171] Originally by: baltec1 It also shows the mega can keep up with some of the quickest ships in the game AND has the range and tracking to apply its damage to be usefull to said gang. Thus busting 3 of the myths you belive in. 1)With 3 nanos (which is massive overkill in and of itself) a mega aligns in 8.1 seconds. With no mods, a cynabal aligns in 3.6 seconds. You're not really keeping up with anything. BTW, an abaddon with 3 nanos only takes 1 more second to align. 2)How does it prove that blasters work well wrt range and tracking? You got a BS to outdamage a bunch of cruisers, congratulations. That can be done with just about any BS, and shows nothing other than that your gang of AC using ships does well, and you managed to not die. You've disproven nothing.
baltec1	Posted - 2011.05.22 19:58:00 - [172] Edited by: baltec1 on 22/05/2011 19:58:34 Originally by: Cambarus Originally by: baltec1 It also shows the mega can keep up with some of the quickest ships in the game AND has the range and tracking to apply its damage to be usefull to said gang. Thus busting 3 of the myths you belive in. 1)With 3 nanos (which is massive overkill in and of itself) a mega aligns in 8.1 seconds. With no mods, a cynabal aligns in 3.6 seconds. You're not really keeping up with anything. BTW, an abaddon with 3 nanos only takes 1 more second to align. 2)How does it prove that blasters work well wrt range and tracking? You got a BS to outdamage a bunch of cruisers, congratulations. That can be done with just about any BS, and shows nothing other than that your gang of AC using ships does well, and you managed to not die. You've disproven nothing. So dispite taking a ship you consider to be too slow and dispite having the best firepower you still say blasters are not a viable weapon system.
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate	Posted - 2011.05.22 20:33:00 - [173] Originally by: baltec1 So dispite taking a ship you consider to be too slow and dispite having the best firepower you still say blasters are not a viable weapon system. Well it IS too slow, I already showed that, and you're comparing LARGE blasters to MEDIUM autocannons, in ganks where you greatly outnumber your targets no less.
baltec1	Posted - 2011.05.22 20:38:00 - [174] Edited by: baltec1 on 22/05/2011 20:39:50 Originally by: Cambarus Well it IS too slow, I already showed that, and you're comparing LARGE blasters to MEDIUM autocannons, in ganks where you greatly outnumber your targets no less. It was fast enough to kill those ships and keep with that fleet. It had the range to shoot at and deal savage damage to the targets dispite the locking time. Blasters work and are viable weapons.
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate	Posted - 2011.05.22 20:44:00 - [175] Originally by: baltec1 It was fast enough to kill those ships. It had the range to shoot at and deal savage damage to the targets dispite the locking time. It's a battleship. You're comparing a battleship to a cruiser. Do you know what the raw DPS difference between a mega and a cynabal is? Somewhere in the realm of 300% With a damage advantage like that, of course blasters look good. But you know what? A pulse geddon also looks good in that scenario, as does an AC pest or a torp phoon/raven. Compare large blasters to large ACs and large pulses and large missiles, or do I need to point out that despite being a brick compared to the rest of your fleet you still didn't even come close to top damage on the targets smaller than a BC on that roam? Originally by: baltec1 Blasters work and are viable weapons. So why is the rest of your gang using ACs?
baltec1	Posted - 2011.05.22 20:53:00 - [176] Originally by: Cambarus Originally by: baltec1 It was fast enough to kill those ships. It had the range to shoot at and deal savage damage to the targets dispite the locking time. It's a battleship. You're comparing a battleship to a cruiser. Do you know what the raw DPS difference between a mega and a cynabal is? Somewhere in the realm of 300% With a damage advantage like that, of course blasters look good. But you know what? A pulse geddon also looks good in that scenario, as does an AC pest or a torp phoon/raven. Compare large blasters to large ACs and large pulses and large missiles, or do I need to point out that despite being a brick compared to the rest of your fleet you still didn't even come close to top damage on the targets smaller than a BC on that roam? Originally by: baltec1 Blasters work and are viable weapons. So why is the rest of your gang using ACs? Because cynables tend to use them better than blasters/missiles/rail/beams/pulse? Now please, stop thinking I am comparing cruisers and BS. I am simply showing you that blasters are indeed a viable weapon system. As for some of the targets. The phantasm jumped past me meaning I had to wait 30 sec, then lock it so I only managed a single shot on that. The tengu? It was outside of my falloff (according to eft), yet I still managed to get good hits in. The rest of them fell in range. All kills were made using null so I wasnt even at my most powerfull. Again, blasters did the job that was required of them.
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate	Posted - 2011.05.22 21:05:00 - [177] Originally by: baltec1 Because cynables tend to use them better than blasters/missiles/rail/beams/pulse? Now please, stop thinking I am comparing cruisers and BS. I am simply showing you that blasters are indeed a viable weapon system. See here's the problem: you seem to have a flawed understanding on what makes a weapon system viable. If you look at blasters as a weapon system without actually comparing them to anything, of course they're going to look good, there's nothing else there to make them look bad. EVERY weapon system, no matter how bad, is viable when the other option is nothing. There don't appear to be any other BSs in that roam you're bragging about, so you're either comparing large blasters to medium ACs, or you're comparing them to nothing, and neither of those is going to give you accurate results. As far as that cynabal point goes, why did they have to use cynabals? If blasters are perfectly viable, why are you the only one in a blaster ship? Originally by: baltec1 As for some of the targets. The phantasm jumped past me meaning I had to wait 30 sec, then lock it so I only managed a single shot on that. The tengu? It was outside of my falloff (according to eft), yet I still managed to get good hits in. The rest of them fell in range. All kills were made using null so I wasnt even at my most powerfull. Lots of excuses and not lots of results, for a ship doing 3 times the DPS of your buddies that is. Now think of how it would have went had you only been doing 5-10% more DPS than them, instead of 300%. (IE the actual difference between blasters are pulses/ACs) Originally by: baltec1 Again, blasters did the job that was required of them. So blasters are fine, you just have to fit a 20 man cynabal gang in that utility highslot the mega gets.
baltec1	Posted - 2011.05.22 21:17:00 - [178] Originally by: Cambarus head in sand Fact still remains, the blaster ship did its job.
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate	Posted - 2011.05.22 21:22:00 - [179] Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: Cambarus head in sand Fact still remains, the blaster ship did its job. Fact still remains that an AC/pulse ship would have done the job better.
baltec1	Posted - 2011.05.22 21:27:00 - [180] Originally by: Cambarus Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: Cambarus head in sand Fact still remains, the blaster ship did its job. Fact still remains that an AC/pulse ship would have done the job better. I took out a blaster boat and did not have problems with range, tracking, speed or damage. Which is what this entire whinefest is about.
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate	Posted - 2011.05.22 21:39:00 - [181] Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: Cambarus Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: Cambarus head in sand Fact still remains, the blaster ship did its job. Fact still remains that an AC/pulse ship would have done the job better. I took out a blaster boat and did not have problems with range, tracking, speed or damage. Which is what this entire whinefest is about. The whinefest is about blasters being bad. The way we measure what is good and what is bad in eve is we compare it to other similar things. You're also flat out lying, because you already admitted to losing out in terms of applied damage a few times because of range, and the main problem with blasters atm is that they do poor damage when compared to their range and the damage of other turrets. Compare a blaster ship to an AC ship, or ideally a pulse ship, THEN tell us all how great blasters are.
Straight Edged	Posted - 2011.05.22 22:03:00 - [182] Edited by: Straight Edged on 22/05/2011 22:03:29 Wow. When someone posts huge killmail lists, They say its dumb luck When someone shows dps graph of blaster boats doing more dps then AC tempests at any range, or railboats doing more dps then any beam/arty ship at anything more then 60km they say its EFT. This is officially the most pointless thread ever. Show me the percentage of cruise missile killmails in this game. Its much much worst I rather CCP spending time on the correct things. Like t3 frigates and cruise missiles, rather then the balanced blasters.
mama guru Gallente Thundercats RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2011.05.22 22:04:00 - [183] Originally by: Straight Edged Edited by: Straight Edged on 22/05/2011 22:03:29 Wow. When someone posts huge killmail lists, They say its dumb luck When someone shows dps graph of blaster boats doing more dps then AC tempests at any range, or railboats doing more dps then any beam/arty ship at anything more then 60km they say its EFT. This is officially the most pointless thread ever. Show me the percentage of cruise missile killmails in this game. Its much much worst I rather CCP spending time on the correct things. Like t3 frigates and cruise missiles, rather then the balanced blasters. For the Billionth time blasters are -pretty fine- The ships using them are not however. _________ EVE is like the "Fisherman's Friend" of MMOs. If it's too hard, you are too weak.
baltec1	Posted - 2011.05.22 22:07:00 - [184] Originally by: Cambarus The whinefest is about blasters being bad. The way we measure what is good and what is bad in eve is we compare it to other similar things. You're also flat out lying, because you already admitted to losing out in terms of applied damage a few times because of range, and the main problem with blasters atm is that they do poor damage when compared to their range and the damage of other turrets. Compare a blaster ship to an AC ship, or ideally a pulse ship, THEN tell us all how great blasters are. considering most fights happen at below 20km range is indeed not much of an issue. The one time range did come into play my speed got me close enough to start putting in the damage. In a prolonged fight of more than on ship I would have been well within range forthe rest of the fight. AC and pulse have more range but so what? with just about every fight taking place within easy range of blasters anyway it doesnt matter unless you want to kite your enemy. Blasters produce more than enough firepower if you use them correctly to kill your targets. If you cannot use them or dont like them then dont use them, but going out and saying its a useless weapon just makes you sound stupid to people who do use them and get great fun out of them.
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate	Posted - 2011.05.22 22:14:00 - [185] Originally by: baltec1 considering most fights happen at below 20km range is indeed not much of an issue. The one time range did come into play my speed got me close enough to start putting in the damage. In a prolonged fight of more than on ship I would have been well within range forthe rest of the fight. Assuming the people you're fighting sit in a tight ball and never move, sure. Originally by: baltec1 AC and pulse have more range but so what? with just about every fight taking place within easy range of blasters anyway it doesnt matter unless you want to kite your enemy. Blasters produce more than enough firepower if you use them correctly to kill your targets. The thing about claiming they have "enough firepower to kill their targets" is that it absolves you of any need for proof. What you have to ask is "how will blasters perform compared to pulses or ACs?" As far as fights being within blaster range, once you're forced to use null you do more DPS with pulses, at higher ranges, with instant ammo swapping, so pulses become provably better. Blasters aren't BAD, all the other guns are just BETTER, which is the problem. Originally by: baltec1 If you cannot use them or dont like them then dont use them, but going out and saying its a useless weapon just makes you sound stupid to people who do use them and get great fun out of them. Relying entirely on your corp to provide you with free kills means you have no real idea of how your weapon of choice performs, and have no business discussing game balance from an experience standpoint. Go out and do some solo pvp, or go out with a gang of all blaster ships, THEN come back and talk about how great you think they are.
baltec1	Posted - 2011.05.22 22:40:00 - [186] Originally by: Cambarus Originally by: baltec1 considering most fights happen at below 20km range is indeed not much of an issue. The one time range did come into play my speed got me close enough to start putting in the damage. In a prolonged fight of more than on ship I would have been well within range forthe rest of the fight. Assuming the people you're fighting sit in a tight ball and never move, sure. Originally by: baltec1 AC and pulse have more range but so what? with just about every fight taking place within easy range of blasters anyway it doesnt matter unless you want to kite your enemy. Blasters produce more than enough firepower if you use them correctly to kill your targets. The thing about claiming they have "enough firepower to kill their targets" is that it absolves you of any need for proof. What you have to ask is "how will blasters perform compared to pulses or ACs?" As far as fights being within blaster range, once you're forced to use null you do more DPS with pulses, at higher ranges, with instant ammo swapping, so pulses become provably better. Blasters aren't BAD, all the other guns are just BETTER, which is the problem. Originally by: baltec1 If you cannot use them or dont like them then dont use them, but going out and saying its a useless weapon just makes you sound stupid to people who do use them and get great fun out of them. Relying entirely on your corp to provide you with free kills means you have no real idea of how your weapon of choice performs, and have no business discussing game balance from an experience standpoint. Go out and do some solo pvp, or go out with a gang of all blaster ships, THEN come back and talk about how great you think they are. Me and my corpmates have been going out in solo/small gang blaster ships for years. I have been doing roaming in BS for 6 months now which is why I was confident in taking the mega out with such a fast roaming gang. I have also been confident in fighting with a single light blaster on a hauler for a good year now.
Idicious Lightbane Percussive Diplomacy	Posted - 2011.05.22 22:42:00 - [187] A great sig I saw somewhere: The reason many gallente ships are phallus shaped is that the pilot has to supply the balls to fly it
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate	Posted - 2011.05.23 02:13:00 - [188] Originally by: baltec1 Me and my corpmates have been going out in solo/small gang blaster ships for years. I have been doing roaming in BS for 6 months now which is why I was confident in taking the mega out with such a fast roaming gang. I have also been confident in fighting with a single light blaster on a hauler for a good year now. Go out and do some pvp with a blaster only gang or solo. Then come back and tell us all how great blasters are. You're still coming here arguing that blasters are good based on experience, when you don't actually HAVE any experience using an all-blaster setup.
Tyme Xandr Gallente Dark Circle Enforcement	Posted - 2011.05.23 06:47:00 - [189] Originally by: Raven Foxfire Problem solved - CCP just REMOVES Gallente from the game all together. They obviously are bad and unworthy of play. I only read up to this page and this post is freakin great. I actually LOLed. Not just smirked and made a 'huwh' sound, i laughed .. out loud.
baltec1	Posted - 2011.05.23 08:16:00 - [190] Originally by: Cambarus Originally by: baltec1 Me and my corpmates have been going out in solo/small gang blaster ships for years. I have been doing roaming in BS for 6 months now which is why I was confident in taking the mega out with such a fast roaming gang. I have also been confident in fighting with a single light blaster on a hauler for a good year now. Go out and do some pvp with a blaster only gang or solo. Then come back and tell us all how great blasters are. You're still coming here arguing that blasters are good based on experience, when you don't actually HAVE any experience using an all-blaster setup. I see you failed to read everything I just said.
Ghost Nightmare Red Federation RvB - RED Federation	Posted - 2011.05.23 13:06:00 - [191] Ok, the problem isnt with blaster. Vindicator uses blasters and works a treat. The issue is the webs, Gallente blaster boats need a racial bonus to web-strength maybe not quite to 90%, but perhaps 75%-80%. Problem solved, thats the way they where broken in the first place, and thats the way to fix them.
Von Kroll Caldari Kroll's Legion	Posted - 2011.05.23 13:21:00 - [192] Originally by: Ghost Nightmare The issue is the webs, Gallente blaster boats need a racial bonus to web-strength maybe not quite to 90%, but perhaps 75%-80%. Problem solved, thats the way they where broken in the first place, and thats the way to fix them. So what about Caldari gunboats then? Can they get a web bonus too?
The Djego Minmatar Hellequin Inc.	Posted - 2011.05.23 15:06:00 - [193] Originally by: Von Kroll Originally by: Ghost Nightmare The issue is the webs, Gallente blaster boats need a racial bonus to web-strength maybe not quite to 90%, but perhaps 75%-80%. Problem solved, thats the way they where broken in the first place, and thats the way to fix them. So what about Caldari gunboats then? Can they get a web bonus too? In my opinion fitting and that the concept of a super long range gunships with low alpha and bad dps is to niche and not really viable with the current scanning and med range pvp mechanics. You basically would need more tracking and DPS at medium ranges to make it more attractive with rails in a more common role similar to the amarr design of med range pvp. This could be archived by reducing rail optimal, considerably increasing her dps and tracking, increasing the optimal range bonus on caldari sniper focused hulls, rebalancing the fitting around mounting a full rack of the biggest rails + mwd + LSE w/o fitting mods and add another turret to the Eagle, Moa and Ferox. Improving the lock range/speed would help a lot by free up a slot in most sniper fits improving her survivability or utility. This would also improve them considerable with blasters by pushing optimal ranges a bit more in the puls range direction and making them able to mount a full rack of neutrons and a heavy tank w/o fitting mods. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate	Posted - 2011.05.23 17:29:00 - [194] Originally by: Von Kroll Originally by: Ghost Nightmare The issue is the webs, Gallente blaster boats need a racial bonus to web-strength maybe not quite to 90%, but perhaps 75%-80%. Problem solved, thats the way they where broken in the first place, and thats the way to fix them. So what about Caldari gunboats then? Can they get a web bonus too? TBH the only gallente ships that should be getting web strength bonuses are the t2 blaster boats, the t1 ships should be changed in some other way. Originally by: baltec1 I see you failed to read everything I just said. What you say implies that you have not been doing any small gang pvp in a very long time, because if you HAD been doing it, you'd be linking THOSE mails, instead of mails where you and 20 of your closest buddies roll out in an AC gang, that just happens to have ONE blaster ship in it. I also vaguely recall you having said at some point that you had only recently gotten in to blaster ships, though it could be someone else waving the experience flag despite not actually having any that I'm thinking of there, tbh you all sound the same to me. That said, the point still remains, if you have experience showing that blasters are good, let's see it. An AC gang that does well despite having a blaster boat in it is not proof that blasters are good.
baltec1	Posted - 2011.05.23 17:42:00 - [195] Originally by: Cambarus I see you failed to read everything I just said. What you say implies that you have not been doing any small gang pvp in a very long time, because if you HAD been doing it, you'd be linking THOSE mails, instead of mails where you and 20 of your closest buddies roll out in an AC gang, that just happens to have ONE blaster ship in it. I also vaguely recall you having said at some point that you had only recently gotten in to blaster ships, though it could be someone else waving the experience flag despite not actually having any that I'm thinking of there, tbh you all sound the same to me. That said, the point still remains, if you have experience showing that blasters are good, let's see it. An AC gang that does well despite having a blaster boat in it is not proof that blasters are good. LARGE blasters, I have had the rax for years. As for those KM from the other night, someone asked for a link. It could have been just as likely I would have posted up my death. Quite honestly you have had KM after KM from many people and for all of them you make some sort of excuse to make it an invalid argument. My favorate excuse is that the top pvpers dont count because they are better than everyone else.
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate	Posted - 2011.05.23 18:22:00 - [196] Originally by: baltec1 LARGE blasters, I have had the rax for years. As for those KM from the other night, someone asked for a link. It could have been just as likely I would have posted up my death. Large blasters are the biggest problem when it comes to hybrid balance, and are the main weapon system that I base the bulk of my arguments on. If you're lacking in experience in the area in which hybrids are hit hardest, then you have no business telling people that they are fine. Originally by: baltec1 Quite honestly you have had KM after KM from many people and for all of them you make some sort of excuse to make it an invalid argument. Here's what a person arguing that from experience blasters are fine needs to have in order for his so called experience to actually be considered as proof: Several KMs, not just one or 2. Blaster-only setups, be it solo pvp or gang work with a bunch of other blaster pilots. Actual fights, not 20 on 1 ganks.(Ideally something where the poster is outnumbered, because it makes it much easier to prove that his weapon of choice performed well) Originally by: baltec1 My favorate excuse is that the top pvpers dont count because they are better than everyone else. 2 things I'd like to point out about this statement: 1)You're conveniently ignoring the fact that I pointed out that most of the top pvpers do NOT use blasters as their weapon of choice, and finding a few that do does not make them balanced. If blasters were perfectly balanced, you'd have about 1 third of the people in that top 100 list using them as their weapon of choice. 2)You can't compare people who fall into the top 0.001% of the playerbase to the average pvper, and balance the game with that in mind. If you really believe that the problem with blasters is that people who use them suck, why aren't YOU posting countless KMs with them showing how you can take them into a fight outnumbered and still win etc etc etc.
baltec1	Posted - 2011.05.23 18:44:00 - [197] Originally by: Cambarus 2)You can't compare people who fall into the top 0.001% of the playerbase to the average pvper, and balance the game with that in mind. If you really believe that the problem with blasters is that people who use them suck, why aren't YOU posting countless KMs with them showing how you can take them into a fight outnumbered and still win etc etc etc. So blasters act differently when this top line of pilots use them?
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate	Posted - 2011.05.23 19:03:00 - [198] Originally by: baltec1 So blasters act differently when this top line of pilots use them? Can you do what the guys at the top of battleclinic can do with blasters? And if you can, why don't you just go out and do that, come back here, post your top 100 battleclinic killboard, and explain how blasters are so fantastic. If you CAN'T do that, then, I guess you've answered your own question haven't you? Balance that only applies to 0.001% of the player base is not balance. It's like saying SCs are fine, as long as you're in the top 2% of the player base WRT available isk. Also you've once again conveniently left out the other part of that point I made again: compare top 100 players to other top 100 players; why are so few of them using blasters?
Tyme Xandr Gallente Dark Circle Enforcement	Posted - 2011.05.23 19:04:00 - [199] Originally by: Cambarus :words: I fly blaster boats and I have a lot of success with them when I fly with a large group of other ships. :D
baltec1	Posted - 2011.05.23 19:33:00 - [200] Originally by: Cambarus Originally by: baltec1 So blasters act differently when this top line of pilots use them? Can you do what the guys at the top of battleclinic can do with blasters? And if you can, why don't you just go out and do that, come back here, post your top 100 battleclinic killboard, and explain how blasters are so fantastic. If you CAN'T do that, then, I guess you've answered your own question haven't you? Balance that only applies to 0.001% of the player base is not balance. It's like saying SCs are fine, as long as you're in the top 2% of the player base WRT available isk. Also you've once again conveniently left out the other part of that point I made again: compare top 100 players to other top 100 players; why are so few of them using blasters? And now I must become one of the top 100 players in eve to show blasters are a viable weapon. As for their useage, some people dont use them because they dont like them. But people do use them and get results. Now, how about you answer me on why blasters used by elite pvpers are different to the ones you and I use.
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate	Posted - 2011.05.23 20:04:00 - [201] Originally by: baltec1 And now I must become one of the top 100 players in eve to show blasters are a viable weapon. You're right, it IS much easier to put words in my mouth than it is to counter my points isn't it? The point I'm trying to make is that you can't say something is balanced because a small handful of the top players can make use of them. Originally by: baltec1 As for their useage, some people dont use them because they dont like them. But people do use them and get results. Now, how about you answer me on why blasters used by elite pvpers are different to the ones you and I use. In a stright up fight to the death, I am fairly confident that I could kill a 5 year old using nothing but a spoon, even if said 5 year old had a knife. Does this make a spoon a better weapon than a knife?
Gabriel Karade Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2011.05.23 20:04:00 - [202] Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 23/05/2011 20:05:10 Baltec, I donÆt mean this to offend but your credibility as a Blaster 'expert' is stretched rather thin from just a cursory glance at Eve-kill or Battleclinic. Maybe when you've spent more time and gained more experience, particularly of flying the big Blaster-boats then youÆll be in a credible position to come back here and tell us all how terrible we are and how blasters are 'fine'. As I said, and you can easily validate this, I parked most of my Blaster-boats in the hanger long ago because outside of the improbable, ridiculous or just downright unlikely scenarios, they are about as much use as boobies on a fish compared to the competition... ThereÆs about, ooh, one gang type I can fly in where I sometimes get to embarrass everyone using my Thorax (no, that isnÆt a euphemism) but that hardly counts as evidence of blasters being æfineÆ. And the sad thing is IÆve gone from flying pretty much just a Blaster-Megathron to flying an Ares as the worlds most overqualified tackler û I guess most of the other old guys just got bored of waiting since 2008, said ôF***-itö and cross-trained. (In that Thorax scenario, a Deimos is largely pointless due to vast cost difference, marginal benefits and ôlol! A Die-most! Kill it!!ö factor) Bizarrely the one æbigÆ ship I do still like to fly is my Sin, which of course everyone else thinks is terrible, but hey ho. -------------- Video - 'War-Machine'
baltec1	Posted - 2011.05.23 20:16:00 - [203] Originally by: Cambarus In a stright up fight to the death, I am fairly confident that I could kill a 5 year old using nothing but a spoon, even if said 5 year old had a knife. Does this make a spoon a better weapon than a knife? And how exactly do they kill us as you would a 5 year old?
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate	Posted - 2011.05.23 20:51:00 - [204] Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: Cambarus In a stright up fight to the death, I am fairly confident that I could kill a 5 year old using nothing but a spoon, even if said 5 year old had a knife. Does this make a spoon a better weapon than a knife? And how exactly do they kill us as you would a 5 year old? Way to avoid the point once again :D Replace me and a 5 year old with a guy who has spent most of his life doing martial arts and a guy who has not, you have the same scenario.
baltec1	Posted - 2011.05.23 21:29:00 - [205] Originally by: Gabriel Karade Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 23/05/2011 20:05:10 Baltec, I donÆt mean this to offend but your credibility as a Blaster 'expert' is stretched rather thin from just a cursory glance at Eve-kill or Battleclinic. I would hardly call myself an expert either. But I do know that blasters are not as crippled as our rather vexed friend would have us belive. Same as you would say the sin isnt as bad as people say. When I try something I dont just give it a go a few times, I spend months getting to know the ins and outs. I most likely know more about the combat abilities of the iteron V and Badger II than most in eve. I simply do not see the issues some here complain about.
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate	Posted - 2011.05.23 21:31:00 - [206] Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: Gabriel Karade Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 23/05/2011 20:05:10 Baltec, I donÆt mean this to offend but your credibility as a Blaster 'expert' is stretched rather thin from just a cursory glance at Eve-kill or Battleclinic. I would hardly call myself an expert either. But I do know that blasters are not as crippled as our rather vexed friend would have us belive. Same as you would say the sin isnt as bad as people say. When I try something I dont just give it a go a few times, I spend months getting to know the ins and outs. I most likely know more about the combat abilities of the iteron V and Badger II than most in eve. I simply do not see the issues some here complain about. Your megathron, do some pvp with it that doesn't involve a 20 man AC gang. You don't see the problems because you've never actually depended on your blasters to win fights.
baltec1	Posted - 2011.05.23 21:37:00 - [207] Originally by: Cambarus I simply do not see the issues some here complain about. Your megathron, do some pvp with it that doesn't involve a 20 man AC gang. You don't see the problems because you've never actually depended on your blasters to win fights. Because that is the only fight I have ever had with blasters Originally by: Cambarus Replace me and a 5 year old with a guy who has spent most of his life doing martial arts and a guy who has not, you have the same scenario. So the guy who took the time to learn how to use blasters wins. Funny how that works.
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate	Posted - 2011.05.23 22:22:00 - [208] Originally by: baltec1 Because that is the only fight I have ever had with blasters You've already admitted to not having used the mega for solo/small gang work. Go out and do it, if you're so confident in its abilities. Originally by: baltec1 So the guy who took the time to learn how to use blasters wins. Funny how that works. So you admit then that a spoon is just as deadly a weapon as a knife?
baltec1	Posted - 2011.05.23 22:31:00 - [209] Originally by: Cambarus You've already admitted to not having used the mega for solo/small gang work. Go out and do it, if you're so confident in its abilities. I have been using the Hyperion for quite some time. Originally by: Cambarus So you admit then that a spoon is just as deadly a weapon as a knife? I say the guy with more experience than you is going to be better with the same weapon.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2011.05.23 22:38:00 - [210] Looking at all three turret types objectively, why use blasters? Compared to autocannons alone: + Slightly higher dps + Slightly better tracking - Fixed damage type - No range flexibility - Cap use - Heavier fitting reqs - Two plus points are pretty much only on paper Really, if you had someone asking which turret type to train, how would you justify hybrids to them? _________________________________ ROCKET STATUS: FIX IN PROGRESS...
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate	Posted - 2011.05.23 22:52:00 - [211] Originally by: baltec1 I have been using the Hyperion for quite some time. Solo? With other blaster ships? I remember you posting some mails with it, and I remember them being ganks where your fleets had mostly AC ships... Originally by: baltec1 I say the guy with more experience than you is going to be better with the same weapon. That has exactly ZERO relevance to balancing. For the weapon systems to be balanced, you have to assume that both pilots are equally skilled (so a nub vs a nub or a vet vs a vet). If blasters require you to be absolutely perfect with your gameplay in order for them to work, and the other weapon systems do not, then blasters are underpowered.
baltec1	Posted - 2011.05.23 23:13:00 - [212] Originally by: Cambarus That has exactly ZERO relevance to balancing. For the weapon systems to be balanced, you have to assume that both pilots are equally skilled (so a nub vs a nub or a vet vs a vet). If blasters require you to be absolutely perfect with your gameplay in order for them to work, and the other weapon systems do not, then blasters are underpowered. Demanding a buff for a weapon that you cannot use but others can is equaly ******ed. You keep moving the goalposts evey time something punches a hole in your perfect bubble. Either it doesnt count because of a lack of experience, or it doesnt count because of too much. You are contradicting yourself far too much to have any valid argument anymore.
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate	Posted - 2011.05.23 23:31:00 - [213] Originally by: baltec1 Demanding a buff for a weapon that you cannot use but others can is equaly ****ed. You keep moving the goalposts evey time something punches a hole in your perfect bubble. Originally by:** baltec1 Either it doesnt count because of a lack of experience, or it doesnt count because of too much. YOU can't make an argument based on experience if YOU do not have any. This is a completely separate argument from the idea of removing player skill as a variable when discussing balance. If one of the top 100 guys, using mainly blasters, were to show up here and explain HOW blasters can be used well, then I'd listen, because they can provide legitimate insight to what the problems, perceived or real, are. You, on the other hand, cannot. The whole you need experience to argue experience thing is an argument aimed at YOU, not the eve population as a whole. The removal of player skill as a variable is a statement aimed at the eve population as a whole. The idea that the top 0.001% of eve has 1 or 2 people who use blasters in it being used as proof that blasters are fine is absurd, especially when, by it's very definition, the top 0.001% of eve's pvpers have skills in the game that 99.999% of the players will never attain. That's not balanced, not even close. There's a KM floating around somewhere where some guy killed a thanny with a rifter (thanny was obviously afk but still, the KM is there). By your logic, because SOMEONE can do it means that the rifter is a valid counter for carrier hotdrops. Originally by: baltec1 You are contradicting yourself far too much to have any valid argument anymore. You've been repeating the same nonsense, with slight changes, since you've come here, and my main point to you has always been the same: Go fly your damn ship, without the help of a 20 man AC gang, THEN come back and tell us how we're all doing it wrong.
baltec1	Posted - 2011.05.23 23:46:00 - [214] Originally by: Cambarus Originally by: baltec1 Demanding a buff for a weapon that you cannot use but others can is equaly ****ed. You keep moving the goalposts evey time something punches a hole in your perfect bubble. Originally by:** baltec1 Either it doesnt count because of a lack of experience, or it doesnt count because of too much. YOU can't make an argument based on experience if YOU do not have any. This is a completely separate argument from the idea of removing player skill as a variable when discussing balance. If one of the top 100 guys, using mainly blasters, were to show up here and explain HOW blasters can be used well, then I'd listen, because they can provide legitimate insight to what the problems, perceived or real, are. You, on the other hand, cannot. The whole you need experience to argue experience thing is an argument aimed at YOU, not the eve population as a whole. The removal of player skill as a variable is a statement aimed at the eve population as a whole. The idea that the top 0.001% of eve has 1 or 2 people who use blasters in it being used as proof that blasters are fine is absurd, especially when, by it's very definition, the top 0.001% of eve's pvpers have skills in the game that 99.999% of the players will never attain. That's not balanced, not even close. There's a KM floating around somewhere where some guy killed a thanny with a rifter (thanny was obviously afk but still, the KM is there). By your logic, because SOMEONE can do it means that the rifter is a valid counter for carrier hotdrops. Originally by: baltec1 You are contradicting yourself far too much to have any valid argument anymore. You've been repeating the same nonsense, with slight changes, since you've come here, and my main point to you has always been the same: Go fly your damn ship, without the help of a 20 man AC gang, THEN come back and tell us how we're all doing it wrong. Not all, just you. There have been several people who have come in here to tell you that you are wrong. Just about everyone can see blasters are a viable weapon and want some tweeks to make them more powerful. You on the other hand seem to have it in your head that nobody can do anything with them. People like you are going to end up getting blasters buffed to OP levels.
Henry Uliver	Posted - 2011.05.24 00:14:00 - [215] You're both terrible at quoting.
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate	Posted - 2011.05.24 00:15:00 - [216] Originally by: baltec1 Not all, just you. There have been several people who have come in here to tell you that you are wrong. Just about everyone can see blasters are a viable weapon and want some tweeks to make them more powerful. You on the other hand seem to have it in your head that nobody can do anything with them. People like you are going to end up getting blasters buffed to OP levels. There are far more people crying that blasters are broken then there are people saying they're not, and the VAST majority of the people saying they're fine don't actually use them. And as far as me wanting them turned into horribly OP guns, my main suggestions so far have been a 15% DPS increase for blasters, and removal of on-grid warping for rails. Not exactly huge buffs (though ideally I'd like a bigger DPS increase, combined with a reduction to falloff, to make blasters more distinct and less like ACs)
Vmir Gallahasen Gallente United Mining And Distribution	Posted - 2011.05.24 02:14:00 - [217] Originally by: baltec1 Demanding a buff for a weapon that you cannot use but others can is equaly ******ed. You keep moving the goalposts evey time something punches a hole in your perfect bubble. For some reason you're fixed on this idea of that because you can get kills with blasters, blasters are fine. Maybe you're just having trouble reading what you're saying, so I'll try and translate it into equivalent terms for you: baltec > I can hit that pigeon with both my pellet gun and my rifle so they're balanced, stop crying others > but the rifle can shoot further? baltec > balanced others > but the rifle doesn't use cap? baltec > balanced others > but the rifle is more accurate at range? baltec > balanced! zomg whiners! others > but the rifle will kill a greater variety of stuff? baltec > JUST BECAUSE YOU CAN'T KILL THAT BULL WITH YOUR PELLET GUN DOESN'T MEAN IT's UNDERPOWERED COMPARED TO GUNS THAT CAN YOU HAVE NO VALID ARGUMENT LALALALALAALA baltec > www.somesite.lol/killmail see I killed a bull with MY pellet gun others > but there are 19 other guys on the mail and they all used rifles? baltec > still counts Hopefully now you can put on reality-glasses and look back through your posts to come up with a more reasonable argument than 'I get kills with them so they must be fine,' okay?
Straight Edged	Posted - 2011.05.24 02:27:00 - [218] Guys should just give up and let the topic die. There is only ONE argument to nerf/buff blasters. That is "Blaster ships are underused, it should be buffed" All other arguments are stupid and easily debatable. Most of the arguers arent even using blasters religiously to even know it. If you try to argue with your killmails they say " hah, just because you have a killmail doesnt mean blaster is good yadayada" If you show EFT that blasters do more or equal dps at any range AC can shoot at they will say "hah, thats eft stop eft warrioring" Same if you show EFT that blasters do more or equal dps at any 60km+ range compared to Artillery and lasers they say "hah, you must use a ship that doesnt suit its role" This is how rediculous this thread is. Blasters is fine. What needs fixing is cruise missiles. Show me a single person with an insane kb with a cruise missile ship Show me a single cruise missile ship which is used in pvp religiously Show me why cruise missile should take precedence to blasters, which is a totally fine weapon system.
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate	Posted - 2011.05.24 03:05:00 - [219] Originally by: Straight Edged There is only ONE argument to nerf/buff blasters. That is "Blaster ships are underused, it should be buffed" Actually there are several, off the top of my head I can tell you: They have all the downsides of lasers without the absurd damage projection. Armor tanked ships are bricks, and the lowest range weapon system in the game gets used on some of the slowest ships. The DPS difference between blasters and ACs/Pulses is very small compared to their different ranges. Because CCP nerfed webs, they often run into tracking issues, even in their optimals. Basically the complaints tend to center around tracking, damage, range, and cap and ammo problems, also known as every single attribute the weapons have. Originally by: Straight Edged All other arguments are stupid and easily debatable. Most of the arguers arent even using blasters religiously to even know it. Then debate them. Originally by: Straight Edged If you try to argue with your killmails they say " hah, just because you have a killmail doesnt mean blaster is good yadayada" Not really no, the problem is that the killmails being linked are NOT blaster killmails, they are AC killmails with a single guy in a blaster ship taking part in the fight. Originally by: Straight Edged If you show EFT that blasters do more or equal dps at any range AC can shoot at they will say "hah, thats eft stop eft warrioring" Actually I distinctly recall saying that you can't compare the raw DPS output of a mega and a pest, because the pest is so much more maneuverable, and has an extra utility high. Originally by: Straight Edged Same if you show EFT that railboats do more or equal dps at any 60km+ range compared to Artillery and lasers they say "hah, you must use a ship that doesnt suit its role" to compare with "a ship which suits its role" (much like flying an autocannon raven to compare with a AC maelstrom) Traditionally when comparing ships, you try and find 2 that have similar, if not identical, uses. I also distinctly remember seeing that an abaddon with megabeams does MORE gun DPS than a 425mm rail using VINDICATOR. So yeah, have fun claiming that rails do more dps. Originally by: Straight Edged This is how rediculous this thread is. Blasters is fine. What needs fixing is cruise missiles. Cruise missiles are pretty bad. Why don't you go make a thread about it? Originally by: Straight Edged Show me a single person with an insane kb with a cruise missile ship Show me a single cruise missile ship which is used in pvp religiously I remember exceed used to use RR cruise ravens with quite a bit of success way back before the nano age, don't see why it wouldn't work now that all the ships have slowed back down. Go look for some of the house of prawn videos, I vaguely recall seeing some of their cruise raven shenanigans with those. Originally by: Straight Edged Show me why cruise missile should take precedence to blasters, which is a totally fine weapon system. Cruise missiles being bad affects maybe 3 ships. Hybrids being bad affects roughly 1 in 3 ships. The scale of their problems is why more attention gets paid to blasters.
Ryan Starwing Gallente Cryptonym Sleepers Test Alliance Please Ignore	Posted - 2011.05.24 03:25:00 - [220] Edited by: Ryan Starwing on 24/05/2011 03:26:30 Why dont you make your own cruise missle thread then? Just remove on grid probing and make the missiles land on the target faster; cruises will then be fine. Hybrids are underpowered even when compaired to rockets now. Even in small gangs a laser boat can do everything a hybrid boat can do but with more range and for example a geddon can do the mega's job for less with more range. Blasters lack the face melting shock value that needs to go with them, and dont even get me started with rails. PS:A certain type of rail does have a use though. It is called mineral compression.
Naomi Knight Amarr	Posted - 2011.05.24 08:55:00 - [221] Edited by: Naomi Knight on 24/05/2011 08:56:32 Originally by: Vmir Gallahasen Originally by: baltec1 Demanding a buff for a weapon that you cannot use but others can is equaly ******ed. You keep moving the goalposts evey time something punches a hole in your perfect bubble. For some reason you're fixed on this idea of that because you can get kills with blasters, blasters are fine. Maybe you're just having trouble reading what you're saying, so I'll try and translate it into equivalent terms for you: baltec > I can hit that pigeon with both my pellet gun and my rifle so they're balanced, stop crying others > but the rifle can shoot further? baltec > balanced others > but the rifle doesn't use cap? baltec > balanced others > but the rifle is more accurate at range? baltec > balanced! zomg whiners! others > but the rifle will kill a greater variety of stuff? baltec > JUST BECAUSE YOU CAN'T KILL THAT BULL WITH YOUR PELLET GUN DOESN'T MEAN IT's UNDERPOWERED COMPARED TO GUNS THAT CAN YOU HAVE NO VALID ARGUMENT LALALALALAALA baltec > www.somesite.lol/killmail see I killed a bull with MY pellet gun others > but there are 19 other guys on the mail and they all used rifles? baltec > still counts Hopefully now you can put on reality-glasses and look back through your posts to come up with a more reasonable argument than 'I get kills with them so they must be fine,' okay? perfectly shows baltec's limited mental capacity , if he cant understand so simple comparisons at least he should stfu and be happy in his ownd world where blasters are balanced Straight Edged omg you are so dumb...
baltec1	Posted - 2011.05.24 09:37:00 - [222] Originally by: Vmir Gallahasen others > but the rifle can shoot further? Blasters are close range weapons, treat them as such others > but the rifle doesn't use cap? If you run out of cap get better cap skills because I have no more issues with blasters than I do with lasers. others > but the rifle is more accurate at range? The complaint from people here is close range tracking. Blasters dont have issues with tracking at range others > but the rifle will kill a greater variety of stuff? anything is game for a blaster others > but there are 19 other guys on the mail and they all used rifles? welcome to the mini age, you are going to see a lot of rust with rifles Hopefully now you can put on reality-glasses and look back through your posts to come up with a more reasonable argument than 'I get kills with them so they must be fine,' okay? Tweeks can be made, mainly to med blaster fitting issues on cruiser sized hulls but blasters as a whole are not useless.
Swynet	Posted - 2011.05.24 11:28:00 - [223] Edited by: Swynet on 24/05/2011 11:31:58 Originally by: baltec1 Not all, just you. There have been several people who have come in here to tell you that you are wrong. And there are a lot more telling you all you say is tons of crap. Insisting an armour tanked ship should be shield fitted to be "awesome" or you suck fitting Insisting blasters are fine when even dev's with all evidence think they don't Insisting on showing your e-peen "I'm better than you so believe me" and the more you add the more you become... forget it. Insisting blaster are fine and every one posting they aren't, are bad players, ok, pass you way out to "Auto-canons need some buff", thx. Your contribution to this topic is totally useless and except maybe for noobs or another e-peen boy, seems no one takes your thoughts seriously for a second. Now if you just really want to make Cambarus write you won, he does No one is saying blasters are totally useless, but 75mm Gatling rails also kill stuff and hit stuff do you use them that much? There's a difference between useless and competitive that you obviously seem to ignore just to serve your e-peen
baltec1	Posted - 2011.05.24 12:33:00 - [224] Originally by: Swynet No one is saying blasters are totally useless, So why are you disagreeing with me then?
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate	Posted - 2011.05.24 18:37:00 - [225] Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: Swynet No one is saying blasters are totally useless, So why are you disagreeing with me then? Because blasters have a very small niche, and no real advantage even when IN that niche. Some of us actually want to see blasters balanced because we like the idea of a balanced game, shocking, I know.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2011.05.24 18:48:00 - [226] Quote: Because blasters have a very small niche, and no real advantage even when IN that niche. Well said. I'd like to repeat my earlier post: Looking at all three turret types objectively, why use blasters? Compared to autocannons alone: + Slightly higher dps + Slightly better tracking - Fixed damage type - No range flexibility - Cap use - Heavier fitting reqs - Two plus points are pretty much only on paper Really, if you had someone asking which turret type to train, how would you justify hybrids to them? _________________________________ ROCKET STATUS: FIX IN PROGRESS...
Holdout	Posted - 2011.05.24 19:19:00 - [227] Edited by: Holdout on 24/05/2011 19:19:06 This thread is now about Memorial Day. Memorial Day is a United States federal holiday honors soldiers and is observed on the last Monday of May (May 30 in 2011). Formerly known as Decoration Day, it commemorates U.S. soldiers who died while in the military service. First enacted to honor Union and Confederate soldiers following the American Civil War, it was extended after World War I to honor Americans who have died in all wars.
NoLimit Soldier	Posted - 2011.05.24 19:44:00 - [228] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Quote: Because blasters have a very small niche, and no real advantage even when IN that niche. how would you justify hybrids to them? Taranis/Ishkur/DareDevil Past the frigate level though...I agree with you.
Beltantis Torrence Wolfsbrigade ShadowWolves.net	Posted - 2011.05.24 21:11:00 - [229] There's some obvious issues with hybrids. I don't like, btw, that it seems like this discussion is totally focused on blasters and Gallente. Blaster Caldari or Rails on either suck terribly too. Gallente Ships - Supposed to be focused on in your face damage - too slow with too poor tracking. Increase blaster base tracking slightly and increase the base speed of Gallente ships. Caldari Ships - Supposed to have range - but no grid for guns and **** damage with 3 damage mods - Increase Caldari gun-boat PG and increase the base damage of short range railgun ammos - through thorium or so. Then the 20% range boost and terribad speed might actually be worth it.
Beltantis Torrence Wolfsbrigade ShadowWolves.net	Posted - 2011.05.24 21:37:00 - [230] Originally by: Beltantis Torrence There's some obvious issues with hybrids. I don't like, btw, that it seems like this discussion is totally focused on blasters and Gallente. Blaster Caldari or Rails on either suck terribly too. Gallente Ships - Supposed to be focused on in your face damage - too slow with too poor tracking. Increase blaster base tracking slightly and increase the base speed of Gallente ships. Caldari Ships - Supposed to have range - but no grid for guns and **** damage with 3 damage mods - Increase Caldari gun-boat PG and increase the base damage of short range railgun ammos - through thorium or so. Then the 20% range boost and terribad speed might actually be worth it. Btw I also think its hilarious that Baltec takes these threads as a chance to post 20 times about how epic he is in his own mind rather than making any sort of coherent argument.
Sable Schroedinger Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2011.05.26 15:59:00 - [231] The biggest problem with broad comparisons of weapon types is that it really depends on which weapon size you look at. However, I believe AC always have better tracking on like for like weapon sizes. As has been said, small blaster boats donÆt do too bad, this is because the boosts that the other weapon types got are marginal at this level so things are closer to how they used to be. However, once you get into the larger weapon classes those boosts really start to show, though due to the significant differences between Medium and Large blasters, this shows more in the medium class (the ability to project past the magic 10km is a huge deal as you do not, by default, need to be in scram and web range to deal damage). Thing is, blasters and blaster boats (themselves) really havenÆt changed over the years. What has changed is a very long series of tweaks to other things that have either disproportionately, negatively impacted blaster boats or have boosted other weapons and so eroded into the benefits of blasters. For example: Pulse lasers used to have (relatively) poor tracking and hit into solid resistance (armour tankers had an innately good EM resist and shield tankers always plugged their EM hole), but had good range and rof ACs had the best tracking (and in general still do), high rof and variable damage. However, due to the worst of all optimal, was always forced to fight in fall off which wasnÆt that long so whilst it could kite it would have to come in close should it wish to do good damage and would have to slow down in order to not outpace their own tracking. This meant that the good DPS and tracking of blasters had a significant edge in its ideal conditions. Pulses had their tracking increased as over the years there was much whining that lasers were weak and this was one of many attempts to fix that. Then the armour resistances to EM (and shield resistances to Exp) were lowered, giving an effective damage boost to lasers. Not in and of itself a bad thing, but ate into the effectiveness of other ships. The biggy for me came with the changes to tracking enhancers. A 30% boost to falloff meant that ACs could kite more comfortably and not have to come in as close in order to do higher damage and meant that they could maintain higher speeds without in running into tracking issues and so stay out of harms way (not risk getting caught by webs and scrams). The Exp damage increase to shield tankers was just icing on the cake. In addition we have the change to scrams and webs, as blasters boats are the only medium or above size ships that need to be in scram/web range to deal damage, this effected them more than any other weapon type and the web changes exposed the tracking calculation at ultra close range. Then there came rigs. The thing with rigs is that those you would use on a gallente blaster boat (at least) almost without fail have a penalty that hits a blaster boat hard. Armour rigs hit the speed they must have to work, hybrid rigs hit an already PG starved class meaning whatever damage is gained is lost by having to down grade guns and speed rigs reduce an already low armour belt. So, blasters and blaster boats still function as they did back when they were FOTM, so have a definite value. However, all those around them have been boosted so that what they have is considered not worth the downsides. What are the answers? ThatÆs the tough one. Rolling back the many changes to the rest of the game would just be daft, they are positive changes after all. But nor would it make sense to just apply a raw DPS boost to blasters (imo). I think the answer must lie in minor tweaks here and there. 30% falloff is very high (especially when you fit multiples), what would the effect be of lowering it to 15% to match the optimal range boost? A slight tweak to pulse laser tracking so that close range ships can actually get under it? Something else? -------------------------------------------- SF Recruiting
Rushnik	Posted - 2011.05.26 17:05:00 - [232] Originally by: Sable Schroedinger * Here was a nice survey of the problems with blaster balance * After reading this whole thread in a row I gave almost up while beeing annoyed by all that subjectiv rubbish at addressing the blaster/Gallente problem. But this post made this thread worthwhile. To be honest you can delete like 5 pages of this thread and save other people the time to read into the topic, but .. oh well. After that nice summary I'd like to see people that fly Gallente to address this problem in a scientific constructiv fashion. At least I demand that from the community of a game thats notorious of its complexity. Somebody said that one way would be to take a Gallente only fleet into battle. I'm sure there are some bored people with time on their hands.
Dizeezer Velar Caldari League of Disgruntled Fast Food Employees	Posted - 2011.05.26 21:25:00 - [233] Blasters are the best platform for what I do, which is empire wardeccing. Most fights start within 10-15km at a gate or even closer at a station. Blasters do perform fantastic at this range and though I have Amarr, Minmitar and Gallente BS at lvl 5, I find myself choosing a Gallente BS 7 times out of ten if I am solo. The only thing I'll choose over a Vindicator is a Bhaalghorn.
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate	Posted - 2011.05.26 21:37:00 - [234] Originally by: Dizeezer Velar Blasters are the best platform for what I do, which is empire wardeccing. Most fights start within 10-15km at a gate or even closer at a station. Blasters do perform fantastic at this range and though I have Amarr, Minmitar and Gallente BS at lvl 5, I find myself choosing a Gallente BS 7 times out of ten if I am solo. The only thing I'll choose over a Vindicator is a Bhaalghorn. You DO realize that it's fairly unanimously agreed that the vindicator is exactly what a blaster ship SHOULD be, and that pretty much everyone thinks it does its job well yeh?
Straight Edged	Posted - 2011.05.26 22:03:00 - [235] then fly your F'in ships with recon support (hugs,raps,araz). Megathron has no problem catching people up as long as someone is webbing him down. A solo battleship with no support of any race will die quickly regardless of turret type.
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate	Posted - 2011.05.27 04:31:00 - [236] Originally by: Straight Edged then fly your F'in ships with recon support (hugs,raps,araz). Megathron has no problem catching people up as long as someone is webbing him down. A solo battleship with no support of any race will die quickly regardless of turret type. A mega has to waste time getting into range. A geddon does not. The geddon has a MASSIVE advantage because of this, and this advantage is increased ten fold if you're using recons for tackle.
DarkAegix	Posted - 2011.05.27 06:39:00 - [237] The vast majority of the time, autocannons track much better than blasters. Also check out those ludicrous fitting requirements. The lowest blaster tier has about the same requirements as the highest autocannon tier. The Rifter has more PG than the Incursus. (By 10%) The Cyclone has more PG than the Brutix. (By 7%) The Maelstrom has more PG than the Hyperion (By 36%)
Naomi Knight Amarr	Posted - 2011.05.27 07:34:00 - [238] Originally by: DarkAegix The vast majority of the time, autocannons track much better than blasters. Also check out those ludicrous fitting requirements. The lowest blaster tier has about the same requirements as the highest autocannon tier. The Rifter has more PG than the Incursus. (By 10%) The Cyclone has more PG than the Brutix. (By 7%) The Maelstrom has more PG than the Hyperion (By 36%) bad game design thats all and noob lazy biased balance team
Digital Messiah	Posted - 2011.05.27 07:40:00 - [239] Originally by: DarkAegix The vast majority of the time, autocannons track much better than blasters. Also check out those ludicrous fitting requirements. The lowest blaster tier has about the same requirements as the highest autocannon tier. The Rifter has more PG than the Incursus. (By 10%) The Cyclone has more PG than the Brutix. (By 7%) The Maelstrom has more PG than the Hyperion (By 36%) Thank god someone brought a logical point of view into this discussion. You guys are acting like children fighting over ice cream flavors. Take note of this post and please follow example. This isn't about kill boards or who is wrong or right. It's about hybrid turrets So now it's easy to see that in large comparison. It is harder to fit, track, and use hybrids, can anyone propose something that will help make this more balanced without making it the same as projectiles? Quote: Don't Panic
Azhpol Gallente Casa Del Wombat	Posted - 2011.05.27 07:49:00 - [240] Originally by: Rushnik Originally by: Sable Schroedinger * Here was a nice survey of the problems with blaster balance * After reading this whole thread in a row I gave almost up while beeing annoyed by all that subjectiv rubbish at addressing the blaster/Gallente problem. But this post made this thread worthwhile. To be honest you can delete like 5 pages of this thread and save other people the time to read into the topic, but .. oh well. After that nice summary I'd like to see people that fly Gallente to address this problem in a scientific constructiv fashion. At least I demand that from the community of a game thats notorious of its complexity. Somebody said that one way would be to take a Gallente only fleet into battle. I'm sure there are some bored people with time on their hands. You gonna pay the several billion isk such a fleet would cost to field, and then lose? Plenty of people bored enough, but not many willing to throw away that much money. ----------------------------------------------- I don't post on an alt, I post on my forum main!
The Djego Minmatar Hellequin Inc.	Posted - 2011.05.27 09:34:00 - [241] Originally by: Sable Schroedinger Something else? I think I narrowed down what depresses me the most about them here: Linkage Basically fixing her very poor point blank performance back into a working state for solo/small gang pvp outside of undock ranges and idealized 1o1s where anything starts at 0. I don't really feel that puls tracking deserves a nerf, since this doesn't make blaster pvp more attractive in the end and only hurts puls ships in solo/small gang fights where they should deserve her role to. I have no issues if the puls laser represents the clearly superior turret outside of point blank combat with very limited tackle on the field. My issues are more that the blaster ship isn't the clearly superior solution if the tackle is very limited where it excels in combining a very heavy tackler with the plain best damage dealer when you can manage to narrow the fight down to point blank. It should overcome the general issues of other turret ships at point blank in solo/small gang pvp, not by flexibility like mini, but by raw force and a far better ability to resist counter fits(undersized hulls, AB fits, dualprob, TDs, neuts, kitting at web range) at her actual combat range. Basically the concept it was before QR, where the limitation was the poor range but with the ability to get in range depending on the kitting skills of both pilots and a fair chance to beat the target once you did manage to force it down to your range. I would however agree that TEs could do with only 20-15% falloff bonus instead of the 30% they offer now, to increase the advantage of puls lasers at medium range and bring AC fittings back into the middle ground between lower DPS at med range and not superior at web range. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
Sable Schroedinger Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2011.05.27 10:45:00 - [242] The problem with pulse lasers is that the tracking is not significantly worse than that of ACs and Blasters, therefore there is no encouragement to try and get in under the tracking of these weapons that have such a good range. Therefore, a solid range projection + comparable tracking = a near unbeatable combination. Basically, in the game of rock, paper scissors, you fight a blaster boat by pulling to range and so mitigating all or most of their damage. Pulse Lasers were fought by charging in close and getting under the tracking to mitigate the damage. ACs could do both, but did lower damage at range, but were fragile up close and mitigated their speed advantage when webbed/scrammed. Obviously that example is simplified to the point of inaccuracy, but IÆm sure it illustrates the point. The reason pulse laser tracking hurts blaster boats is that they have the damage projection (and insta change crystals) to start dealing damage at almost any range. So outside of a warp to zero gank, a blaster boat is looking at starting with a heavy damage debt to try and make up and even if they manage to close they will not be able to mitigate enough damage compared to their higher DPS to recover. But that comparison aside, if your pulse lasers do not run the risk of not excelling in any given combat range, then there is little reason to use another weapon type, especially if those weapon types come with heavy drawbacks (such as blasters). As far as I can tell, no one is arguing that blasters are useless, however what is clear is that changes made over the last few years have, amongst the issues raised before, broadened the effectiveness of the other weapon types with only blasters remaining unchanged, something that has resulted in not a useless weapon system, but one that no longer excels over its counterparts but still carries its heavy restrictions. Personally I see no future in homogenising the weapon types, what is needed is to accentuate their differences again as they have been eroded by one method or another. -------------------------------------------- SF Recruiting
The Djego Minmatar Hellequin Inc.	Posted - 2011.05.27 12:31:00 - [243] Depends a lot on how you look at it Sable. For solo/small gang you have basically a break between cruiser/frig an BC/BS. In the frig/cruiser class the puls ships really on her high range and kitting ability while the blaster ships use on her raw power to take them down at point blank. Puls ships need her tracking in this scenarios to remain competitive since they heavily relay on scorch + kitting and not really sport superior tanks. Both are fairly even if you compare them in this scenarios and mostly settle it by piloting skills. If you go to BC\BS the amarr ships tend to make a lot more use of her superior EHP and her good range makes them effective as damage dealer at a lot of ranges. However the ships also become a lot slower by making use of heavy armor tanks what gives them considerable handicaps when it comes to tackle faster targets or control range. Blaster based gallente hulls are in the same boat here what further increases her range handicap and I wouldn't really say that I'm satisfied with the point blank performance of the blaster ships in this scenarios, even with the tracking bonused hulls like the mega, and they are already more suited for this tasks than laser based hulls as we speak. This are basically the only scenarios where you could get under somebody else tracking. Ideally the blaster hull should have the ability to get in range of the laser hull here quick and beat it by raw power instead of making use of a highly situational mechanic where blaster ships with her high sigs mostly even out tracking at point blank against her targets. That said, the stronger web does actually improve the ability to get under someone else tracking, since it gives you considerable more control over range and transversal. The only exception would be AHAC style gangs that mostly relay on ABs and very low sigs, where blaster ships are also not a viable choice by the need keeping out of tackling range for the AHACs and the problems to move yourself into combat range against gangs of very fast ships. But this are already fleet fight territory, where laser ships makes full use of his superior range and damage projection abilities and should come out on top. Basically a lot of laser hulls already have weaknesses in scenarios where you can get under guns. The higher speed, selectable damage types, capless guns, easier fitting and more utility in form of neuts already makes minmatar super competitive against them in solo/small gang so I see no real reason to hand out a nerf to them. I'm not really interested in mono culture for small gang/solo pvp like it is for fleet fights since a while now. What I really want to see is a highly competitive blaster pvp in this scenarios that makes the trade off in the ability to be effective at range or versatility for raw power and being a lethal opponent in a point blank stand off fight against a huge variety of possible targets. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
Rushnik	Posted - 2011.05.27 16:06:00 - [244] Originally by: The Djego What I really want to see is a highly competitive blaster pvp in this scenarios that makes the trade off in the ability to be effective at range or versatility for raw power and being a lethal opponent in a point blank stand off fight against a huge variety of possible targets. Lets say the blasters >= medium get a little more tracking and damage boost; That would make them more effektive in close range. But the whole point is that blasters are supposed to be closerange only. Making their T2 ammo's attributes more like barrage is a nice option but shouldnt be the fix. So we come to this: Originally by: Sable Schroedinger The reason pulse laser tracking hurts blaster boats is that they have the damage projection (and insta change crystals) to start dealing damage at almost any range. So outside of a warp to zero gank, a blaster boat is looking at starting with a heavy damage debt to try and make up and even if they manage to close they will not be able to mitigate enough damage compared to their higher DPS to recover. But that comparison aside, if your pulse lasers do not run the risk of not excelling in any given combat range, then there is little reason to use another weapon type, especially if those weapon types come with heavy drawbacks (such as blasters). In a fight with multiple opponents that have more range the blasterboat will be forced to close the distance fast to be able to apply its damage - while doing so it will be shot and will propably be priority, that hurts. After reaching and hopefully killing its opponent it has 2 choices: to flee, or to fight. While fleeing is not always possible its often forced to fight. Which will make the pilot begin at step one - getting in range. Other weapon systems dont have that big problem and that seems like a gamble going with blasters into PVP. Another problem is that the fastest approach is a straight line making blasters even less advantageous, what would explain why blasters on fast moving agil frigates perform much better because they spend less time in a low transversal (and their sig radius is small I know). ---- Originally by: DarkAegix What's the similarity between neutron blasters, a MWD, an armour rep and heavy cap booster? Extremely high powergrid requirements. You end up ditching or lessening the value of a bonus, either by dropping to electron blasters or not fitting a rep. I know compared to Minmatar, fitting Gallente ships isnt as effektive. CCP should take a look at it. Shieldbuffer fitting gallente ships tells you all you need to know about the status of their balance. Buffer tanks are much seen in PVP so shield buffer tanking ships have a big advantage over armor buffer setups... speed! So gallente lose even on that. Too many minus points if you ask me. Agility and maybe a speed boost was suggested and it sounds better then a gallente only webbing boost to me. Summary as I see it: - Gallente need a blaster boost - more agility and maybe speed or more speed and no agility boost - Ships need a overhaul to meet pvp combat requirements as the current blaster mechanisms make them hard to apply as they are. - X <-- what ever that is to fix it without needing to apply the above (dont nerf anything)
Dizeezer Velar Caldari League of Disgruntled Fast Food Employees	Posted - 2011.05.27 16:08:00 - [245] Originally by: Cambarus Originally by: Dizeezer Velar Blasters are the best platform for what I do, which is empire wardeccing. Most fights start within 10-15km at a gate or even closer at a station. Blasters do perform fantastic at this range and though I have Amarr, Minmitar and Gallente BS at lvl 5, I find myself choosing a Gallente BS 7 times out of ten if I am solo. The only thing I'll choose over a Vindicator is a Bhaalghorn. You DO realize that it's fairly unanimously agreed that the vindicator is exactly what a blaster ship SHOULD be, and that pretty much everyone thinks it does its job well yeh? You seem angry. Navy Megathron is also great. Just destroyed a brutix, hurricane, drake 3v1 a little while ago with it.
Dizeezer Velar Caldari League of Disgruntled Fast Food Employees	Posted - 2011.05.27 16:13:00 - [246] All this theorycrafting. To be honest, if you people flew the damn things once and awhile and grew a pair of balls, you would be surprised with how good blasters can be. You're forgetting some obvious points, tracking is usually a non issue in bs vs bs fights, and gallente have always sucked in fleet fights. Fly them where they shine, in solo or small gang pvp. If not, well then of course they suck.
The Djego Minmatar Hellequin Inc.	Posted - 2011.05.27 16:46:00 - [247] Originally by: Rushnik Originally by: The Djego What I really want to see is a highly competitive blaster pvp in this scenarios that makes the trade off in the ability to be effective at range or versatility for raw power and being a lethal opponent in a point blank stand off fight against a huge variety of possible targets. Lets say the blasters >= medium get a little more tracking and damage boost; That would make them more effektive in close range. But the whole point is that blasters are supposed to be closerange only. Making their T2 ammo's attributes more like barrage is a nice option but shouldnt be the fix. Actually no, as written down in my contribution to the other thread I linked explains that one of the key issue is effective damage projection at point blank ranges. This unfortunately isn't archive able with a bit more tracking if you can't archive range and transversal control at point blank. I actually don't want more range, rather the oposite, to reflect the gained potential the ships would have for actual close range pvp. Originally by: Dizeezer Velar All this theorycrafting. To be honest, if you people flew the damn things once and awhile and grew a pair of balls, you would be surprised with how good blasters can be. You're forgetting some obvious points, tracking is usually a non issue in bs vs bs fights, and gallente have always sucked in fleet fights. Fly them where they shine, in solo or small gang pvp. If not, well then of course they suck. High sec wars are highly controllable scenarios(alt scouts, alt logis, fighting at undocks with enough buffer to re dock if desired etc.) if you fly them outside of this the issues that the ships you might see a lot more issues with them. I actually want to fly them where they shine(in solo/small gang pvp), like in the 3 years before QR, but considering the nature of the beast outside of empire, they are not really a desirable solution for the job as we speak. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
DarkJacena	Posted - 2011.05.27 18:26:00 - [248] I'm in the opinion that the ships that wield blasters (and possibly their bonuses) that need a boost moreso. Especially the Rokh, for being a Tier 3 ship (and it's cost) it's really quite lackluster, even for it's niche, People still joke about it being PvP-worthy, and for many good reasons. Other gunnery ships don't get nearly as bad a risk/reward factor as blaster ships, I think everyone can agree on that. -Jace
S0ylent Green	Posted - 2011.05.27 18:34:00 - [249] ...people would find something else to whine about but really? first post got it right, if they were "fixed" they'd not OP, they'd be just right ;)
Rushnik	Posted - 2011.05.27 19:09:00 - [250] Originally by: The Djego Actually no, as written down in my contribution to the other thread I linked explains that one of the key issue is effective damage projection at point blank ranges. This unfortunately isn't archive able with a bit more tracking if you can't archive range and transversal control at point blank. I actually don't want more range, rather the oposite, to reflect the gained potential the ships would have for actual close range pvp. Controling means webifiers right? Giving the gallente ships a agility boost would result in a fight against another bs in a sharper orbit that makes the gallente ship harder to hit. I could be wrong... There's also the problem when the opponent flys a webifier fit too... which a webifier boost on the ship would help.
The Djego Minmatar Hellequin Inc.	Posted - 2011.05.27 20:31:00 - [251] Originally by: Rushnik Originally by: The Djego Actually no, as written down in my contribution to the other thread I linked explains that one of the key issue is effective damage projection at point blank ranges. This unfortunately isn't archive able with a bit more tracking if you can't archive range and transversal control at point blank. I actually don't want more range, rather the oposite, to reflect the gained potential the ships would have for actual close range pvp. Controling means webifiers right? Yes. Originally by: Rushnik Giving the gallente ships a agility boost would result in a fight against another bs in a sharper orbit that makes the gallente ship harder to hit. I could be wrong... Well you can reduce incoming DPS in a 1o1 against a BS in if you orbit it also close, however you will wrack your own DPS to and a lot of fights include more people than just 2 and this means most of the time more tackle. However every medium turret tracks 333% better compared to BS sized turrets and this will be what you get shot with and what you shot at in 9/10 engagements. Originally by: Rushnik There's also the problem when the opponent flys a webifier fit too... which a webifier boost on the ship would help. Yes. One of the major points of the design is that it makes outrunning the blaster ship within web range very hard. It even grants the blaster ship, even outtackelt 3vs1 web wise, at least the ability to keep his current target in range and keep the DPS up. It is not necessary a improvement for bigger fights, however it reduces most of the issues QR created for blaster ships to a minimum within her old niche of solo/small gang pvp and gives the pilot the chance to decide between entering a peak DPS situation with the target or trying to max out transversal to help out his own tank. Think of it like flying a nano ship, range/transversal control is everything and makes the difference between ships that perform very good at point blank and ships that enter sudden death range. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
Rodion Romanovich Raskolnikov	Posted - 2011.05.27 22:53:00 - [252] The issue has at least been acknowledged by CCP: Quote: We don't have a schedule for this right now, because we generally don't schedule balance work very far in advance. That said, we're of course aware of the concerns players have about Gallente ships and it's a concern that we share. We discussed exactly this issue with the CSM last time they were over, both in terms of the specific issue of Gallente balance (the discussion ended up spending some time looking at the ability of blaster platforms to get into range, for example), and the wider issue of how and when we schedule balance stuff, and why we tend not to comment on balance issues ahead of time (broadly, that we don't want to have an official position on what's broken until we've taken the time to sit down and really look at the problem, and we don't tend to do that until we're actually working on it). http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1508537&page=1#25
Swynet	Posted - 2011.05.28 11:28:00 - [253] Originally by: Dizeezer Velar All this theorycrafting. To be honest, if you people flew the damn things once and awhile and grew a pair of balls, you would be surprised with how good blasters can be. You're forgetting some obvious points, tracking is usually a non issue in bs vs bs fights, and gallente have always sucked in fleet fights. Fly them where they shine, in solo or small gang pvp. If not, well then of course they suck. You certainly forget to say that most probably you've killed those ships doing some DED mission for concord, the system you squat. You want a /bravo for killing pve ships with some pvp setup in high sec? -give us a break.
Sebastian T'Soni	Posted - 2011.05.28 16:15:00 - [254] Originally by: Dizeezer Velar To be honest, if you people flew the damn things once and awhile and grew a pair of balls, you would be surprised with how good blasters can be. Grow a pair of balls? So let me understand this, having balls means clicking 'approach', turning on your MWD and then pressing F1 once the target is in range? I.e., using blasters in the only way they can be used? Those are some giant balls you've got. Now I see what I was doing wrong with my blaster boats. I was MWDing away from my opponents and opening fire at 30km with my Medium Electrons! Thank you so much for clearing that up and showing me the error of my ways. I couldn't understand what I was doing wrong. Now that you've pointed this out, I too believe that there's absolutely nothing wrong with blaster boats - you just need balls.
Dizeezer Velar Caldari League of Disgruntled Fast Food Employees	Posted - 2011.05.28 21:05:00 - [255] Originally by: Swynet Originally by: Dizeezer Velar All this theorycrafting. To be honest, if you people flew the damn things once and awhile and grew a pair of balls, you would be surprised with how good blasters can be. You're forgetting some obvious points, tracking is usually a non issue in bs vs bs fights, and gallente have always sucked in fleet fights. Fly them where they shine, in solo or small gang pvp. If not, well then of course they suck. You certainly forget to say that most probably you've killed those ships doing some DED mission for concord, the system you squat. You want a /bravo for killing pve ships with some pvp setup in high sec? -give us a break. Nope, it was an empire war. Nice assumption.
Dizeezer Velar Caldari League of Disgruntled Fast Food Employees	Posted - 2011.05.28 21:08:00 - [256] Originally by: Sebastian T'Soni Originally by: Dizeezer Velar To be honest, if you people flew the damn things once and awhile and grew a pair of balls, you would be surprised with how good blasters can be. Grow a pair of balls? So let me understand this, having balls means clicking 'approach', turning on your MWD and then pressing F1 once the target is in range? I.e., using blasters in the only way they can be used? Those are some giant balls you've got. Now I see what I was doing wrong with my blaster boats. I was MWDing away from my opponents and opening fire at 30km with my Medium Electrons! Thank you so much for clearing that up and showing me the error of my ways. I couldn't understand what I was doing wrong. Now that you've pointed this out, I too believe that there's absolutely nothing wrong with blaster boats - you just need balls. Your problem might be not so much a lack of tactics, but poor skills. If you're whinging, you must be doing something wrong.
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate	Posted - 2011.05.28 21:53:00 - [257] Originally by: Dizeezer Velar Your problem might be not so much a lack of tactics, but poor skills. If you're whinging, you must be doing something wrong. You mean like flying a blaster ship yeh? Seriously though, you can't really argue that blaster ships are fine based on the vindicator, because the vindi is what most blaster boats SHOULD be; actual facemelting DPS at point blank range, with the ability to actually KEEP stuff there.
Straight Edged	Posted - 2011.05.28 22:29:00 - [258] Quote: Well you can reduce incoming DPS in a 1o1 against a BS in if you orbit it also close, however you will wrack your own DPS to and a lot of fights include more people than just 2 and this means most of the time more tackle. However every medium turret tracks 333% better compared to BS sized turrets and this will be what you get shot with and what you shot at in 9/10 engagements. worst quote ive ever seen. Once you are in more then 2x web, and is slower then the dominix, there is no way the dominix cant track your bc/bs. ESPECIALLY drakes and nano shield canes. 'cant track cruisers' arent even an argument. No BS class weapon can track cruisers that blasters cant track anyways.
DraconisAlpha	Posted - 2011.05.31 13:50:00 - [259] Originally by: baltec1 Blasters are solo/small gang weapons which require experience, balls and madness. Beer may or may not help. EVE Holy Bible!
Swynet	Posted - 2011.05.31 14:01:00 - [260] Originally by: Straight Edged ...'cant track cruisers' arent even an argument. No BS class weapon can track cruisers that blasters cant track anyways. Autos can and hit hard, while when I fly my cane and 'm scrambled twice/webed twice my best survival chances are to orbit the Blaster BS at 1km. On the other side I never try to orbit any autos BS at 1km, gess why.
DraconisAlpha	Posted - 2011.05.31 14:26:00 - [261] Originally by: Swynet Originally by: Straight Edged ...'cant track cruisers' arent even an argument. No BS class weapon can track cruisers that blasters cant track anyways. Autos can and hit hard, while when I fly my cane and 'm scrambled twice/webed twice my best survival chances are to orbit the Blaster BS at 1km. On the other side I never try to orbit any autos BS at 1km, gess why. I dont get why worst range guns are best to deal with at low range engagements. Well, I get it, just I dont get why CCP doesnt fix it.

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