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Daneel Trevize Black Viper Nomads	Posted - 2011.04.23 21:12:00 - [31] Just how do you gtfo from a ship that's got you pointed, is faster than you (kiting doesn't mean they're restricted to only flying away), and you aren't hurting it nearly as much as it's hurting you?
Umega Solis Mensa	Posted - 2011.04.23 21:22:00 - [32] Originally by: Kelio Rift Ok, let's see the situations... A faster ships is able to escape from your webs, it starts to kite you... Why the hell should you follow if you can never reach it? Change targets, or gtfo, or when they perma jam you, deagress and get out of the system, or dock up. Let's see the scenario when the target cannot escape your webs because you used a Scrambler, but it starts to orbit at a really close range. You have two options, either start approaching, or keep at range. If you approach, but your target wants to orbit on a certain range, your ships will get alligned on almost the same line, which reduces angular and transversal, which means your guns can track. Keeping at range also forces your ships to get alligned on almost the same line, same tracking, guaranteed hits. Only problem is with really small ships. If you are sitting in a blasterboat, don't do the mistake of sitting still. You have thrusters, propulsion, MWD/AB, you are MOBILE. Even if you get webbed to death, you can still turn your ship. That is why people cry about blasters need to be fixed, they can't control their ships. I pretty much agree with this point that people have issues piloting the hybrid-ships effectively. Drakes n canes have a nice balance in their over all design, but the biggest thing about them that makes for their popularity imo.. is their just stupid easy to fly with effectiveness. Any idiot can grasp basic fits/game mechanics and make either cane or drake work well. I don't think the harbi/brutix/myrm fall into this catagory.. but all 3 are very capable and worthy ships in the right hands. All it takes is doing varies things to establish the right situation, when you think about it.. the fast blaster boats are considered top predator ships when in the right hands. Fast only makes the situation of ideal range easier.. there are other methods to get it in your favor other than simply 'approach target' and pray. This is where people fail.. but its a video game, and majority of people on an MMO can't admit their method is wrong, or simply too stupid to adapt.. and things should be adjusted to their way of thinking. ---------------------------------------- Treat the EVE markets like you are its Pimp.. it is your 'willing' employee to fondle n use n abuse as you please.
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate	Posted - 2011.04.23 21:55:00 - [33] Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: Cambarus Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: Cambarus This what happens in an EFT maths fight. In reality I find I have little problems out damaging my opponents. Proof or stfu. I wouldnt use them if they didnt work. In the last 3 months your most used ships are the hound, cane, and vengeance. If blasters are fine why AREN'T you using them? What's more is that you obviously fly with medium/large gangs (10-20ish seems to be the norm) so your effect on the fleet is minimal, and certainly not something you could get a reasonable measure from just by flying the ship (meaning you need to look at some sort of numbers to prove viability in these situations)
The Djego Minmatar Hellequin Inc.	Posted - 2011.04.23 23:19:00 - [34] Edited by: The Djego on 23/04/2011 23:26:50 Originally by: Umega All it takes is doing varies things to establish the right situation, when you think about it.. the fast blaster boats are considered top predator ships when in the right hands. Fast only makes the situation of ideal range easier.. there are other methods to get it in your favor other than simply 'approach target' and pray. This is where people fail.. but its a video game, and majority of people on an MMO can't admit their method is wrong, or simply too stupid to adapt.. and things should be adjusted to their way of thinking. The majority of the good players is also clever enough to don't use blaster ships since they are just bad. There is not a single reason to not use 50% more speed, double your range, increase your ability to actually project damage(by simply don't fly a ship that can't do it at his range), increase of utility, add the gtfo option and stop throwing a extra 50M of faction items on the hulls just because they can't be fitted with T2 reasonable well. Most blaster ships don't offer any good reason to get used by good players, I didn't fly one for ages since most of the hulls are just plain crap since 2.5 years now. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
VC General	Posted - 2011.04.24 02:51:00 - [35] One thing I rarely hear about blasters is that although they do more damage on paper, every ship at the least has its 2nd and 3rd strongest resists to Therm/Kin, and many T2 get 70+ out of the box. That damage doesn't look so impressive when it's multiplied by .1 or .2.
Straight Edged	Posted - 2011.04.24 03:57:00 - [36] Quote: One thing I rarely hear about blasters is that although they do more damage on paper, every ship at the least has its 2nd and 3rd strongest resists to Therm/Kin, and many T2 get 70+ out of the box. That damage doesn't look so impressive when it's multiplied by .1 or .2. so uh. on average, ships resist 2.5x strongest of any damage type. uh. so whats new =.=''
Umega Solis Mensa	Posted - 2011.04.24 04:22:00 - [37] Originally by: The Djego Edited by: The Djego on 23/04/2011 23:26:50 Originally by: Umega All it takes is doing varies things to establish the right situation, when you think about it.. the fast blaster boats are considered top predator ships when in the right hands. Fast only makes the situation of ideal range easier.. there are other methods to get it in your favor other than simply 'approach target' and pray. This is where people fail.. but its a video game, and majority of people on an MMO can't admit their method is wrong, or simply too stupid to adapt.. and things should be adjusted to their way of thinking. The majority of the good players is also clever enough to don't use blaster ships since they are just bad. There is not a single reason to not use 50% more speed, double your range, increase your ability to actually project damage(by simply don't fly a ship that can't do it at his range), increase of utility, add the gtfo option and stop throwing a extra 50M of faction items on the hulls just because they can't be fitted with T2 reasonable well. Most blaster ships don't offer any good reason to get used by good players, I didn't fly one for ages since most of the hulls are just plain crap since 2.5 years now. Whats your definition of 'good players'? I don't see how someone could state 'good players' in sentence that suggests they need a 90% web to actual be considered legit and 'good players'. And the first part of your statement is far too random and full of ass pullin' to bother with. There is nothing wrong with them.. everything goes by current player temperate. Drakes sucked.. for how long was such the claim? Then poof-bang they get used properly in a PvP battle and escalate to their vast PvP usage today, and not a damn thing was changed to them. Maels too.. Speaking of Maels.. All three fit with 3x respective dmg mods and T2 guns with T1 ammo.. 8x 1400s = 9828 alpha 16.6 seconds 8x 800s = 2482 alpha 3.25 seconds (5 rounds to one 1400 volley for 12410 dmg) 8x neutron = 3223 alpha 4.33 seconds (3 rounds to one 1400 volley for 9669 dmg) ACs win.. not surprising really. RoF bonus to proj.. its actually a lot closer than that when you get into the fractions with how close the unbonused neutrons are to another round before 1400 goes again. Whats my point? Its only a matter of time before a well known and respected alliance pulls off a 0km warp-in point and ****s some arty/tachyon target with a neutron fleet of hyperions/brutixs.. AND to have it plastered all over the place will people take notice and think 'oh, well...' Well.. is when people realize that in fleet fighting, it should be more about fleet-alpha instead of personal alpha, and how quickly a fleet can apply that alpha onto target(s). Time spent waiting to F1 again is time you miss out applying dmg on new primary before your secondary becomes Your primary. Make sense? Probably not.. try tracking a target under 400 sig radius doing over 200 m/s with a 1400 within 15km. Such a scenario won't be pretty.. for the fotm. But that takes planning and coordination.. and an actual good core of players to pull off. It is so much easier for numbnuts to sit in a range boat and park/wait. Such is the climate today. ---------------------------------------- Treat the EVE markets like you are its Pimp.. it is your 'willing' employee to fondle n use n abuse as you please.
baltec1	Posted - 2011.04.24 06:03:00 - [38] Originally by: Cambarus In the last 3 months your most used ships are the hound, cane, and vengeance. If blasters are fine why AREN'T you using them? Because I have had very little time to play eve so even those ships are not used much. I will be lucky to have 5 kills over the last month and my most used ship over the last month was taking out my arty mael twice.
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate	Posted - 2011.04.24 06:32:00 - [39] Originally by: baltec1 Edited by: baltec1 on 24/04/2011 06:14:01 Originally by: Cambarus In the last 3 months your most used ships are the hound, cane, and vengeance. If blasters are fine why AREN'T you using them? Because I have had very little time to play eve so even those ships are not used much. I will be lucky to have 5 kills over the last month and my most used ship over the last month was taking out my arty mael twice. Incidently, I used the vengece once this year and I cannot remember the last time I used a cane. My last used ships over the last two months were the hound and the mael which did get kills and my mega which did not. So the guy arguing that his experience trumps hard facts and numbers has no provable experience that supports his claim. Gotcha.
The Djego Minmatar Hellequin Inc.	Posted - 2011.04.24 08:44:00 - [40] Originally by: Umega Whats your definition of 'good players'? I don't see how someone could state 'good players' in sentence that suggests they need a 90% web to actual be considered legit and 'good players'. Is this so? The key point might be, what can a good player do with a blaster ship that has the ability to actually do damage at close range again? Is it worth using as a damage dealer in solo/small gang scenarios with the 60% web? Probably not and this might be the reason why it isn't really used atm. Originally by: Umega Its only a matter of time before a well known and respected alliance pulls off a 0km warp-in point and **s some arty/tachyon target with a neutron fleet of hyperions/brutixs.. AND to have it plastered all over the place will people take notice and think 'oh, well...' It is not, because it is **ed. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by:** Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.

baltec1	Posted - 2011.04.24 19:25:00 - [41] Originally by: Cambarus So the guy arguing that his experience trumps hard facts and numbers has no provable experience that supports his claim. Gotcha. kill mails are no evidence as they are often buggy and do not ever tell you what happened in a fight just who died to what, and even that can be wrong at times. Quite simply, you cannot use them while I seem to be able to which tells me the issues are pilot related.
Aamrr	Posted - 2011.04.24 21:02:00 - [42] Edited by: Aamrr on 24/04/2011 21:03:26 I'd just like to point out that killmail whoring guns on scimitars really aren't that bad or unusual. The scimitar is far more powergrid constrained than slot constrained, and there are very few modules which can actually provide any significant combat benefit. At best, you could make an argument for the +2 targets an autotargeter would give, but there aren't many pilots with multitasking 5 trained. Edit: Just make sure that you don't get aggressed at an inappropriate time. If you lose your ship because you couldn't jump or dock, then you deserve to get yelled at.
Captain Brickwalle	Posted - 2011.04.24 21:27:00 - [43] Secret to blasters: 1) get a proper dedicated tackle Or 2) use TE rather than mag stabs
Von Kroll Caldari Kroll's Legion	Posted - 2011.04.24 22:32:00 - [44] Originally by: Captain Brickwalle Secret to blasters: 2) use TE rather than mag stabs I get more DPS out of rails than blasters if I use 3 TE's on a blaster fit, compared to Mag Stabs on the rail fit, and at over double the range. This compares two Moa fits, one with 200mm Rails, and one with Ion Blasters. I suppose the tracking would suffer in comparison, but...
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate	Posted - 2011.04.24 23:37:00 - [45] Originally by: baltec1 kill mails are no evidence as they are often buggy and do not ever tell you what happened in a fight just who died to what, and even that can be wrong at times. Killmails may njot be perfect but they are the only evidence most people have, short of frapsing fights. The point I'm trying to make is this: The argument that the numbers don't tell the whole story is not in and of itself an invalid one. HOWEVER, if you yourself cannot offer any sort of proof to back up your claims of experience, then as far as the topic at hand is concerned you're either lying or don't HAVE experience, and anything you say is completely irrelevant. You can't expect anyone to believe what you say when your only proof for your argument is experience, and you have no proof of said experience. If, however, you insist on sticking by this claim, I will make one of my own: In my experience, even at close range and in a 1 on 1 fight, matari and amarr ships greatly outclass gallente ships. If you cannot make these ships excel then it must be because you do not know how to fly them. Originally by: baltec1 Quite simply, you cannot use them while I seem to be able to which tells me the issues are pilot related. You do not SEEM to be able to use them, you CLAIM to be able to use them. I'll repeat what I said in an earlier post: Proof or STFU.
Baraka Saibot	Posted - 2011.04.25 03:47:00 - [46] How about of mostly falloff on blasters, to be about 70-80% optimal and the rest falloff. Better real DPS, better range, and Caldari gunboats would benefit more from their rather useless bonus with blasters.
The Djego Minmatar Hellequin Inc.	Posted - 2011.04.25 06:03:00 - [47] Originally by: Baraka Saibot How about of mostly falloff on blasters, to be about 70-80% optimal and the rest falloff. Better real DPS, better range, and Caldari gunboats would benefit more from their rather useless bonus with blasters. That weapon is called puls laser and already ingame. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
Oeduard Kriegge	Posted - 2011.04.25 07:07:00 - [48] Edited by: Oeduard Kriegge on 25/04/2011 07:09:35 (arguably) the blaster/gallente situation could be realistically helped (not solved, helped) by a little-to-moderate buff to remote sensor dampners - not by returning them to what they once were, pre-scripting - but by making them more effective (than they are now) when mounted on the ships that supply a bonus to their use.
baltec1	Posted - 2011.04.25 09:08:00 - [49] Originally by: Cambarus Proof or STFU. Well if we are going to use the KB then lets see last nights roam in my first diemost victim The story for this kill is as follows. The dram tackles the target and we jump in. I find myself 35km from the cane so have to burn to target which is running away while the other canes and harby open fire. Dispite this as you can see I come in second for damage. I was only out damaged by the harbi which is not all that suprising because the harbi is a fantastic boat for taking out sheild ships and I only had 4x ion and 1x electron and they had a head start.
Sigras	Posted - 2011.04.25 10:43:00 - [50] Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: Cambarus Proof or STFU. Well if we are going to use the KB then lets see last nights roam in my first diemost victim The story for this kill is as follows. The dram tackles the target and we jump in. I find myself 35km from the cane so have to burn to target which is running away while the other canes and harby open fire. Dispite this as you can see I come in second for damage. I was only out damaged by the harbi which is not all that suprising because the harbi is a fantastic boat for taking out sheild ships and I only had 4x ion and 1x electron and they had a head start. So what you're saying is that a 30 million isk harby did nearly twice as much damage as your 100 million isk deimos . . . got it. Honestly guys, how many situations would you really take a megathron over an armageddon? the geddon is cheaper, and if you're out of range you have the option to load scorch and still hit things at 45 km; you know how much damage my mega does at 45 km with its blasters? LOL I dont even need EFT for that one. Im sorry, ill take 1200 DPS pretty much always over 1300 DPS pretty much never, which is exactly what the mega gives you, 1300 DPS pretty much never. Now I believe that frigate blasters are the only ones that work correctly; they have no trouble tracking, getting in range, and they do insanity damage. You also have a case for the vindi because of its 90% webs, and maybe the deimos even though its made of Papier-mGchT but look at the evidence; the most popular fits for the brutix and the hyperion are buffer shield tanking even though they're clearly designed to armor tank given their bonuses; couple that with the fact that the drawback for the native tank of the blaster boats (armor) is a speed nerf and you have a serious problem. Lastly, I dont know why tracking does not follow range; they should be inversely related but autocannons with 300% the range of blasters also get better tracking. Ok lets compare the two weapon systems for a moment. One gets 10% extra damage The other uses no cap, can chose its damage type, has better tracking, has ammo that provides even better tracking, is easier to fit . . . ooh yeah lets also put this weapon system on the fastest ships so they can dictate range too . . . yep that looks balanced

Annie Anomie Shadows Of The Federation	Posted - 2011.04.25 10:49:00 - [51] To my mind Blasters are ALWAYS going to be situational just because of their design. They're the highest damage, shortest range guns. That's ALWAYS going to limit them to particular niches. Given most PVP is done in gangs where that kind of weapon is going to be less effective just because of the nature of a bunch of guys shooting at a bunch of guys I don't really see how you'd tweak them to suddenly work in that setting without making them into one of the other weapon systems.
baltec1	Posted - 2011.04.25 11:22:00 - [52] Originally by: Sigras So what you're saying is that a 30 million isk harby did nearly twice as much damage as your 100 million isk deimos . . . got it. Lets ignore the fact the harbi is one of the best BC in game and was shooting at a ship with a massive EM hole and the diemost started shooting after several vollies yet still managed to out damage two canes
Von Kroll Caldari Kroll's Legion	Posted - 2011.04.25 15:24:00 - [53] Originally by: Sigras [ooh yeah lets also put this weapon system on the fastest ships so they can dictate range too . . . yep that looks balanced Pretty much agree with all of this, but lets not forget that the community is to blame for the projectile buff that completely unbalanced the whole array of gunships. Folks used to ***** just as incessantly for Proj to be buffed, and we certainly got it. If they buff hybrids, either Gal or Cal gunships are going to be OP--mark my words. CCP just doesn't know what "subtle" means when it comes to "rebalancing".
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate	Posted - 2011.04.25 15:42:00 - [54] Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: Sigras So what you're saying is that a 30 million isk harby did nearly twice as much damage as your 100 million isk deimos . . . got it. Lets ignore the fact the harbi is one of the best BC in game and was shooting at a ship with a massive EM hole and the diemost started shooting after several vollies yet still managed to out damage two canes You were asked for proof as to why blasters are good, you linked a KM where they were not really good, and then made a bunch of excuses as to why it's not the blasters' fault that they were outperformed by lasers. The deimos especially is terribad because it's an up-close brawler, and t1 BCs are better at it, for much cheaper.
X Gallentius Quantum Cats Syndicate	Posted - 2011.04.25 16:02:00 - [55] Edited by: X Gallentius on 25/04/2011 16:05:26 Originally by: Daneel Trevize Just how do you gtfo from a ship that's got you pointed, is faster than you (kiting doesn't mean they're restricted to only flying away), and you aren't hurting it nearly as much as it's hurting you? ECM drones. In other blaster news... Rail Comet ftw.
baltec1	Posted - 2011.04.25 16:41:00 - [56] Edited by: baltec1 on 25/04/2011 16:42:00 Originally by: Cambarus You were asked for proof as to why blasters are good, you linked a KM where they were not really good, and then made a bunch of excuses as to why it's not the blasters' fault that they were outperformed by lasers. The deimos especially is terribad because it's an up-close brawler, and t1 BCs are better at it, for much cheaper. So beating two canes fitted with AC which according to you are so much better doesnt show blasters are just as good in the right hands?
Ilike ithard	Posted - 2011.04.25 18:12:00 - [57] If blasters were "fixed" then everything else would be broken.
Traejun DiSanctis Caldari	Posted - 2011.04.25 18:38:00 - [58] Originally by: Ilike ithard If blasters were "fixed" then everything else would be broken. Nah, missiles would be fine. The role of missiles isn't threatened by any other weapon type.
Val'Dore Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided	Posted - 2011.04.25 18:45:00 - [59] Blasters work better on Minmatar ships than on Gallente ships. ~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ Tiericide
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate	Posted - 2011.04.25 20:35:00 - [60] Originally by: baltec1 So beating two canes fitted with AC which according to you are so much better doesnt show blasters are just as good in the right hands? FFS learn to quote. How exactly did you "beat" these canes? If you're referring to the ones you were flying with (as in, in terms of damage applied) one has to question the information when you have a guardian ODing one of the canes. Either they weren't shooting the target, or they got there late, or they were doing something stupid. Not to mention the fact that this doesn't really show the performance of blasters. You did 7k damage, congratu****inglations. You could have done that with just about any ship(yes even a cane), and the fact that the harb did 10.5k damage to the same target means you weren't even the top contributor. Your KM proves exactly nothing except that you're looking at its information with the ASSUMPTION that blasters are good, and coming up with excuses as to why this mail does not reflect that, rather than looking at it objectively, and seeing that in that case the harb was clearly the better ship for the job, and that you don't actually HAVE proof of a situation where blasters were the ideal weapon.



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